Efrain Alvarez

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by bsky22, Mar 3, 2019.

  1. comoesa

    comoesa Member+

    Aug 13, 2010
    Christen Press's armpit
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The thing I don't get with our national team youth teams is that it should be focused almost 100% on recruiting and being competent in youth world cups. I hear too many stories of kids falling out with coaches. The truth is you can't be rough with these kids unless you are paying them.
     
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  2. USSoccerNova

    USSoccerNova Member+

    Sep 28, 2005
    As I've written before, USSF needs someone actively selling these kids, as well as their parents and agents.

    Efra made a somewhat emotional choice to play for Mexico due to a bad experience at a US youth camp and was also likely influenced by his father's preference for Mexico. That is what it is. What USSF needs to do is show him that the logical choice that is best for his career is to go with the US. The pitch could be centered around the upside of the US program being better (as evidenced by the last two u20 qualifying campaigns and increased investment by MLS/USSF), that he fills more of a hole in the US player pool (a true #10) or any other compelling reason you could come up with.

    The position should also be a dedicated role at USSF as a) Tab and the youth coaches have a lot on their plate already, and b) it allows the person to represent the program as a whole in cases where the player has tension with a given youth coach.
     
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  3. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, I'm not against the idea of some kind of recruiting coordinator, because it'd likely make more dual-nationals choose us.

    On the other hand, I kind if hate it. People should play for the USA because they want to represent the USA in International competition. Not because they were fawned over by the USSF moreso than they were fawned over by the other Federation(s).

    If they have ulterior motives beyond that desire, that's their individual prerogative, and there's nothing to be done about it.
     
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  4. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That precedent was set in 2014 if you don't remember.
     
  5. Borrachin

    Borrachin Member+

    Feb 28, 2006
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree, but unless our scouting and evaluation doesn't improve, the other countries (ex. Mexico) will always land them before US. If I'm a player with dual nationality and one comes before the other, guess who am I picking? I'm not going to wait and miss out to train and play at that level and test myself.
     
  6. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, we agree that we should scout players better.

    My thing is, I take "recruiting" to its logical extreme, and see if I can stomach it. If we had to pay players to make them play for us, I wouldn't like the NT. Because it's not supposed to be something akin to a consumer purchasing decision.

    PS. I'm not saying we shouldn't reach out, or that we shouldn't be nice, or that we shouldn't be clear with kids. I just think there's a limit, and that the further down the "recruiting" rabbit hole you go, the more sinister it becomes. College football/basketball recruiting was probably pretty tame in the beginning. Now it's hundreds of millions of dollars, "favors" of girls and cars, and secret contracts with agents and shoe companies.
     
  7. bballshawn

    bballshawn Member+

    Feb 5, 2014
    Delaware
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Lol, well tbf he wasn't 16 with 1 FT sub for the Galaxy. Whos spot is Alvarez gonna take on that GC team?
     
  8. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Trouble with having scruples, is that when those that are affected by the decisions made by those scruples have other options, you permanently burn bridges. I don't have any problem with requiring integrity from our players, or consequences for not having that integrity. But I wonder if there might have been some leniency for a 14-15 year old kid who doesn't know sh!t from shinola.
     
  9. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He was 17 (?) with no professional experience at all!?!
     
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  10. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Coming full circle with this, Julian Green's spot?
     
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  11. bballshawn

    bballshawn Member+

    Feb 5, 2014
    Delaware
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    julian green was 19 i believe
     
  12. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    And this is the difference between a fan and an executive.
     
  13. #1 Feilhaber and Adu

    Aug 1, 2007
    They don't need someone selling these kids, they need to stop promoting Mexico, because it makes them some more $$$. And that's all they care about.

    There used to be so much pride in taking on mexico and the euphoria when we won. They were a wannbe soccer super-power and we were a niche community in a Super-power country. Mexico players would warm up in jeans before the 2002 world cup game, and think they had already won it.

    Now our bottom-line resume first executives, are actively promoting Mexico and asking us to to root for them so they can put "increased Annual revenue by 38%" but making sure to leave out "Failed to make World Cup in a weak region and convinced former US top players to wear Mexico scarfs, a despicable act".


    Mexico federation is in heaven.

    They don't have to do jack ,they can sit back and watch Don Garber build massive young Mexico fans through MLS just for the bottom line.
     
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  14. #1 Feilhaber and Adu

    Aug 1, 2007
    Our executives are worse then both the fan and the executive.

    They are more fans of the enemy because it makes them more money.
     
  15. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    The problem is that the genie is already out of the bottle with this. The current generation of dual national young players the world over almost uniformally bases decisions upon opportunity rather than patriotism. I think the patriotism based ones are never open to changing their mind in the first place, and so aren't really dual nationals in that sense.

    For most of these guys, it's not like it is with say me, or you, it's a reality in which they have ties to multiple countries, and no long standing familial history with any in particular that overrides anything, and as a result, they look to situation, rather than where the "heart" is so to speak.

    Recruiting is just a reality. I don't have a problem with ejecting players that turn out to be just epic duplicitous scumbags, but other than that, i view recruiting as something that either gets done to you, or something that you try to win the edge on. I'd rather be in the latter group.
     
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  16. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    SJ Earthquakes/Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Pleasanton, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think that "most" dual-nationals don't have a preference. I think that most feel better about one setup over another.

    The question is, what are we willing to do, or should we be doing anything, to sway dual-nationals? Free roster spots? Money? Gifts?

    I'd argue, all we should do is communicate early and often. Find dual-nationals, and when they show talent, bring them into camps as early and as often as possible. Even if it's a regional identification camp of 50 kids, we should be able to keep in touch with them all.

    If we're going to promise playing time, for example, it better be Cristiano Ronaldo's kid (who is American through his mother, I think).
     
  17. USSoccerNova

    USSoccerNova Member+

    Sep 28, 2005
    Just to be clear, I'm certainly not advocating that we arrange for prostitutes, offer them bribes or do anything even remotely unethical. I'm not even suggesting we manipulate prospects by telling them what they want to hear as I don't believe in doing that sort of thing.

    I do believe US Soccer has a lot to sell as it's a program clearly on the rise. I feel strongly that the opportunity for any given player should be consistently communicated, early and often, in a personalized manner and preferably by someone who would have the most credibility in those households. It's account management 101 and it's a bit silly that there's even an argument about USSF's need to execute to a higher standard in this area.
     
  18. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Only making it worse that he had no professional experience at all...
     
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  19. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Yep, I've been saying Garber & Co (hence the USSF) would rather MLS develop the next superstar for El Tree than for the USMNT.
     
  20. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    brian reports on berhalters talking efra:

     
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  21. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Doesn't sound like we disagree at all. #1 The set up angle is what I meant. I don't think they choose based upon patriotism, I think they make the choice based on opportunity/situation etc. Seems like we're on the same page there.

    As for the rest. I think we also agree. I'm not in favor of inducements of that sort, I'm in favor of aggressive recruiting, consistent support/communication and flexibility. We put our best foot forward. It's not in terms of packages, like two companies vying to hire the same person to be CEO, it's in terms of presenting what we have to offer as a national team/community of players, and providing a network of coaches and support staff that makes joining with us look more attractive, including proactive support for finding opportunities in Europe.

    Until recent years Mexico kept its players domestically, and the US just dreamed of players having opportunities overseas, let alone actually having them to begin with.Slowly but surely we've built networks of agents, scouts, and relations through the Klinsmann days in Europe and it can't be that difficult for young guys like Alvarez to notice that virtually every young player we've had with potential has gotten offers from major and lower level clubs in Europe. I could be wrong, but I get the sense that Alvarez would have an easier time making the jump to Europe from the US then from Mexico. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that could be so, and I think it could serve as a carrot for players like Alvarez. Hey, want to play for PSG, Dortmund, Ajax, Chelsea? We've got guys on every one of those clubs. We've got relationships all over the EPL, especially the Bundesliga, and generally all around Europe. Big clubs and small clubs in Europe alike are starting to really enjoy scouting MLS and USMNT players/prospects, and considering how often we play roadies in Europe compared to Mexico, you'll be out in the sales window during friendlies to a much greater degree than players for Mexico's national team typically are.

    Just looking through Mexico's friendlies it's startling how rarely they travel outside of the America's.

    Road Friendlies in Europe between 2007-2017:
    2017:
    USA: @ Portugal
    Mexico: @ Belgium, @ Poland

    2016:
    USA: Zero
    Mexico: Zero

    2015:
    USA @ Germany, @ Netherlands, @ Denmark
    Mexico: Zero

    2014:
    USA @ Ireland, Vs Colombia in England, @Czech Republic, Vs Ukraine at Cyprus
    Mexico: @ Netherlands, @ Belarus

    2013:
    USA @ Scotland, @Austria, @ Bosnia,
    Mexico: Zero

    2012:
    USA: @ Russia, @ Italy
    Mexico: Zero

    2011:
    USA : @ Slovenia, @ France, @ Belgium
    Mexico: @ Poland

    2010:
    USA: @ Netherlands
    Mexico: @ England, Vs Italy in Belgium, Vs Netherlands in Germany

    2009:
    USA: @ Denmark, @ Slovakia
    Mexico: Zero

    2008:
    USA: @ Spain, @ England, @Poland
    Mexico:Vs Ghana in England,

    2007:
    USA: @ Switzerland, @ Sweden
    Mexico: Zero

    Total Road Games between 2007-2017 in Europe:
    USA: 24 Matches
    Mexico: 9 Matches

    I just like to dig into this sort of stuff, but it's definitely something somebody could lay out in front of a kid like Alvarez, or if Llanez changes his mind, something to make him reconsider. It's irrefutable, when it comes to taking roadies to Europe, the US does it nearly 3x as often as Mexico, and those can actually be sale windows (just a random example I remember was Mathis scoring a brace against Germany in Germany in '02, and then getting lots of interest from German clubs afterwards). There's no denying having a star making performance in something even as basic as a friendly can draw attention. There's also no denying that if you play for the US, you will have significantly more opportunities to do so then if you play for Mexico.

    Europe Roadies the past 3 cycles:

    '10 Cycle:
    USA: 8 games
    Mexico: 4 games

    '14 Cycle:
    USA: 12 games
    Mexico:3 games

    '18 Cycle:
    USA:4 games
    Mexico: 2 games
     
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  22. #1 Feilhaber and Adu

    Aug 1, 2007
    Mexican federation is in "direct contact" with family. Of coarse they are. They know Alvarez deep down wants to play for the US more, but his parents are super Mexico fans and waited for the perfect opportunity to convince his son to ditch the country that raised him. I get it from the parents perspective. They probably grew up hating USMNT. But, We will see what Alvarez does. His childhood buddies all play for the US and he was raised and developed here.
     
  23. Sebsasour

    Sebsasour Member+

    May 26, 2012
    Albuquerque NM
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Does he "deep down" want to play for The US?
     
  24. Sebsasour

    Sebsasour Member+

    May 26, 2012
    Albuquerque NM
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I understand the Jonathan Gonzalez thing sucked, and pissed a lot of people off, but The US efforts at recruiting dual nationals have been nothing short of a resounding success.

    The list of players who were born and raised in the US, yet played elsewhere mostly consists of guys who weren't good enough so elected to play for smaller teams. There's very few who we wanted, but went elsewhere.

    Meanwhile the list of guys who've played for us despite spending little to no time here is massive.
     

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