ECC final- 1977 how did Liverpool manage to beat 'Gladbach?

Maybe, if 'Gladbach didn't have 7 midfielders on the pitch, they would have scored more goals.

...just a thought.

 

Liverpool had also Emlyn Hughes. A fantastic defender with great ball control, he possessed every ability to crowd the midfield if necessary. Berti Vogts was a supertanker compared with him.

 

Liverpool had a good record against Borussia in the 70s. They even beat them in the 1973 UEFA Cup Finals and in the European Cup semi-finals in 1978.

Most of those English sides that won the European Cups were unsophisticated compared to the continental sides but they were well organised.

 

The key for me for these teams was the managers. Paisley and Clough were two of the greatest who ever lived.

 

Here is a tactical analysis of that game. It is in German though and unfortunately too long to translate.

http://spielverlagerung.de/2011/08/...-85-das-englische-flaggschiff-erobert-europa/

 

Google Translate of thelast part

"
What is

Liverpool made it to the 70's an untypical for an English team style design. The idea of ​​a considered technically studded with football defenders, the idea of ​​"Pass and Move" was expanded to a control attacking football. With this way of playing the Liverpool dominated Europe's largest club competition until the mid-80s.

Bill Shankly and Bob Paisley invented the opposite of the "Kick and Rush" and the Reds were able to ascend to the most successful club side since Real Madrid. Neither team managed a first generation without compromising quality. The large series of Ajax and Bayern were three seasons. Although Liverpool was able to defend the title once you reached 1977-1985 times the final of the national champions and have won the title four times.

At the same time, the home of football split in the technical style of Liverpool or the equally restrained by Brian Clough, Nottingham Forest and the view that we should capture between ball and ball Pits are always so few touches as possible. One side trusted the abilities of the players hold the ball to the other side pointing the wrong statistics.

From the great Liverpool teams of the 70s and 80s were some players to successful coaches. Kenny Dalglish and Graeme Souness trained both the Reds and Kevin Keegan made a name for Newcastle, Fulham and Manchester City. John Toshack coached Real Madrid among others.

The influence of Shankly and Paisley is still to be seen at many top English teams."

 

This is from Rothmans Football Yearbook 1978-79 (which covers 1977-78). It is called "European Review" by Leslie Vernon:

....Ron Greenwood, an 'ancient' apostle of 'continental football' (if such an overall concept can be accepted), often says that we must improve our technique and marry it with our traditional virtues of strength, stamina, application, running and heading excellence. This sensible message was put in practice by Liverpool, a team perhaps not wholly appreciated in England. At a press conference in April, both Claudio Coutinho, manager of Brazil, and Miljan Milanic were extolling the virtues of the "Reds", saying that if current Liverpool side were to enter the World Cup, they would probably finish in the first three.

Although I agree that the old English saying 'familiarity breeds contempt' might apply, one has to distinguish between Liverpool in domestic competitions and the very same team in the wider international context. While, at home, they play the typical aggressive non-stop British game, and their off-side tactics often irritate crowd and opponents alike, they have learned that this type of football is not effective against the more sophisticated European foes. Consequently, as it was so brilliantly demonstrated in the Rome final last year, in European matches, Liverpool play a more patient game, holding the ball, using the defence as a 'safety deposit', while the highly effective midfield create space either for themselves or for the front-runners.

Their regenerative powers - as a club - are quite unique. After Bill Shankly departed, many people thought that he might have taken a team's heart with him. But under Bob Paisley, Liverpool have flourished and have achieved even more than they ever did before. When Keegan and Toshack left, no one expected such swift replacement for that deadly duo as was provided by Dalglish and the ever-improving Dave Fairclough.

What is Liverpool's secret formula in Europe? Emlyn Hughes, skipper of the side says: "Continental teams are frightened to death of us. They seem to be scared by our record and the fact that we play 70 games a season. I think they expect us to be super fit, everyone of us a man-mountain. The last few European teams have sat on defence, not daring to go forward in case we crush them." These last 'few teams' included Mönchengladbach in the semi-finals of the European Cup, when the Germans simply folded at Anfield after an early Kennedy goal. The midfielder was completely unmarked, and similarly, Bonhof lost Dalglish later in the first half, when the Scottish ace found an inviting gap and shot past the badly positioned Kleff. Case's third goal after a leisurly dribble merely underlined Liverpool's superiority - arguably their best performance of the season...

 

No criticism of James or Gregoriak and the translation might be difficult, but ....
Honestly, trust me Forest were no less of a footballing team than Liverpool!

Clough's Forest were famous as Bobby Robson is quoted as saying for playing "carpet football" ie passing the ball around on the ground/grass/carpet, maybe increasingly so throughout his time in charge but certainly in their most successful period they were very much a footballing team too although they had a very tight defence and great goalkeeper (as did Liverpool).

If anything Liverpool were a bit tougher in midfield and Forest relied more on skills in that area I think, though they had players that could tackle well too. Forest were at times seen as a very good counter-attacking side but this did not mean direct or defensive, just that they were very good at breaking with the ball (passing it along the ground) and probably took a different approach to the current Barcelona for example in terms of pressing less high up the pitch and instead getting 4 midfielders back into midfield when the ball was lost.

 

Of course I might have mis-interpreted and the article could have been contrasting Liverpool and Forest with other teams. Maybe Gregoriak will have a better idea than I do from the translator.

 

Actually it is not really definite what the author wanted to say. The only definite thing is that he sounds like a Liverpool fan.

Gleichzeitig spaltete sich die Heimat des Fußballs in den technischen Stil von Liverpool oder dem ebenso zurückhaltenden Nottingham Forest von Brian Clough und der Ansicht, dass zwischen Balleroberung und Torabschluss immer so wenige Ballberührungen wie möglich erfolgen müssten. Die eine Seite vertraute den Fähigkeiten der Spieler den Ball zu behaupten, die andere Seite deutete Statistiken falsch.

I would translate it like this:

"At the same time the home of football broke down into the technical style of Liverpool or the likewise reserved Nottingham Forest of Brian Clough and the belief, that between capture of the ball and goal scoring always the minimum amount of touches has to be made. One side trusted the abilities of the players to keep possession of the ball, the other side interpreted statistics in the wrong way."

 

Generally my impression is that Clough's Nottingham Forest was/is not really appreciated in continental Europe.

The extreme view is that they were a poor side made up of other clubs' reserves that achieved incredible success due to an extraordinary managing team. To many, Forest were a dull, not too inventive and overly defensive-minded outfit. Back then, what most people remember was how a team played in the final and Forest didn't impress that much in 1979 vs. Malmo (which was dubbed "worst final ever" by the press) and in 1980 not too impressive as well.

This might all be unfair as Forest displayed some neat football on the way to the final games, like the 5-1 vs. Athens, the 4-1 vs. Grashoppers, the incredible 3-3 vs. Köln, the 3-1 at Dynamo Berlin or the 2-0 vs. Ajax.

Still, I think few European critics were appreciative of Forest's brand of football. Some called them "intruders", "upstarts" in the royalty of European football.

I am sure you won't take it too hard.

 

With regards to Ajax: the encounter was seen as a rather poor event from both sides. That said, I've said to PDG1978 before that the lack of quality in the team is often exaggerated.

 

No, no problems and indeed the translation is still hard to understand (thanks though, and it was very similar to what James managed to translate too I think).

I grew up watching Forest but a few years later than the time in question of course, but I can guarentee they were seen as very much a pure football team within England (Bobby Robson's quote gives a good idea - he also mentions discipline which was the other factor - not that they never comitted a foul but they were instructed to play fair and not argue with refs etc - of course Clough was famous for instructing his Leeds players to throw their medals in the bin beacuse they'd won them by cheating or something like that when he had his brief spell in charge and followed Don Revie whose tactics he was referring to).

I've seen extended highlights of both the 79 and 80 Finals and I would say Forest played a higher quality in the first of them against Malmo (though it wasn't a very highly regarded final overall that's true) than against Hamburg but the side that played Hamburg was lacking several of the best players from the previous couple of years (Woodcock, Francis, Gemmill etc).

Taking as few touches as possible between gaining possession and having an effort on goal would sound more like the approach of Egil Olsen than Forest though. So overall I just found it a bit surprising, particularly that they were contrasted with Liverpool in this way (arguably Forest might've had a slightly quicker approach than Liverpool at times but it was as stated very much a passing game with very few long balls). It's interesting nevertheless though to get such insight into opinions at the time, and my view of Forest is based on a slightly later time and their reputation then though I've seen plenty of the football from the 77/78 season on video and some from the European campaigns too.

Without diminishing Clough's achivements (how many could do the same?) I would say that he had a good platform for his success with the group of players he inherited (Anderson, O'Neill, Woodcock, Robertson among them) - for a Division 2 team that is very good talent and potential but it's certainly true that they weren't a collection of absolute superstar quality players in comparison to some of the previous winners of the competition who often had one or a couple of unbelievable talents among the great players of all time (Cruyff, Eusebio, Di Stefano, Puskas, Beckenbauer, Muller in his way etc). Probably Shilton was seen as somewhat of a superstar goalkeeper though that is a defensive position of course, and among the Forest fans Robertson is probably seen as the genius/best player (he did have a huge effect on both Finals I suppose but didn't shine above everyone in either - in the first the commentator says "I've been waiting to see Robertson do that" when he sets up Francis's goal with a run down the outside and cross, and in the second he scores himself after pre-match 'banter' that involves Clough responding to questions about Kaltz's attacking qualities by suggesting Robertson will give him plenty to worry about the other way).

 

Yes, I told you about Clough's quote about Arsenal's invincibles too where he says that his Forest team did not have the players like Henry and Pires (from a football magazine around 2004). I think Forest have had some talented players by Division 1/Premier League standards but not by all-time great standards. I was addressing the approach to the game/style of play issue when I tried to correct the translated article though. Quality wise I'm sure Dalglish of Liverpool for example was a class above any of Forest's players.

 

Here's a copy and paste of the Bobby Robson comment:

England Job
Sir Bobby Robson has revealed that he urged the Football Association to sack him and appoint Brian Clough as England manager in the late Eighties. When Robson was going through a difficult spell after a disastrous European Championship in 1988, he offered to step aside for the 'People's Choice'. ​

"I had the England job at the time everybody was calling for Brian Clough," Robson told BBC Radio Five Live. He asked FA chairman Bert Millichip to give the job to Cloughie. "He would have disturbed the corridors of power at the FA. But in my opinion he would have been a very good England manager," said Robson. ​

"To win two European Cups in successive years is remarkable, a fairytale. But I also liked the way they played at Forest, what I call carpet football. Football on the ground, to feet. The discipline on the pitch was remarkable. Yes, he was outspoken but everybody respected his views." ​

Also, from Clough himself:
"If God had wanted us to play football in the clouds, he'd have put grass up there." ​

Another thing often quoted from Clough's time at Forest was an instruction to treat the ball as a friend - "Don't just boot it away as soon as you get it" - which is sort of similar to a Johan Cruyff quote about the Dutch '74 side and it is a good one to illustrate the reasons I'm querying the conclusions of the article. The pure footballing style of play was very noticeable while watching Forest matches, including when Frank Clark had taken over as manager for a while.​

 

I'm still unsure if my words have been unnecessary , as the translation of this is unclear really.

It could be read as something like this:
"At the same time the home of football broke down into the technical style of Liverpool and the similarly considered Nottingham Forest of Brian Clough, and the contrasting belief that between capture of the ball and goal scoring the minimum amount of touches should be made. One approach (Liverpool and Forest) trusted the abilities of the players to keep possession of the ball while the other approach was based on a flawed interpretation of statistics."

However the way it came across to me initially was like this I think:
"At the same time the home of football broke down into the technical style of Liverpool, and the more reserved Nottingham Forest of Brian Clough with a belief that between capture of the ball and goal scoring only the minimum amount of touches should be made. One approach (Liverpool) trusted the abilities of the players to keep the ball while the other (for example, Forest's) was based on a flawed interpretation of statistics.

I think it might actually be the first one the more I look at it, but anyway it's beneficial to clarify Forest's style of play I suppose.
It's a shame if they are seen as dull and uninventive at all in Europe as that's not the typical understanding of Forest from the 80's/90's and I think also the 70's. From what I've seen there may have been slightly more of a tendency to play the ball directly to the centre-forward in the air, for example with a deep free-kick, in the successful 70's teams compared to later when the passing game was even more favoured. I won't cover the thread in Forest clips but here is a Youtube video that gives some idea of the play of the 70's side (there are a couple of longer lofted balls, as well as some neat passing/inventive back-heels):
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atMvYLc5U-Q"]NOTTINGHAM FOREST v Leeds United - YouTube[/ame]
I think all of those clips, or most of them, are from 77/78.

I have seen some of the highlights from 79/80 European Cup games such as the ones Gregoriak mentions and there are a few high balls into the box at times, but they occur when the opposition defence is camped in their own box (as can be seen from the video above sometimes they still tried to play passes to feet in such situations). Compared to the average English side of the late 70's I still think they had a more cultured approach generally, but I think they were able to use the height and aerial ability of the centre-backs and/or centre-forward too. The Forest sides of later in the 80's and early in the 90's still put some crosses into the box at times but were even less inclined to play direct high balls - it was sort of a shock when in Frank Clark's first season as manager, despite the general style of play being similar to the prior years, a longer free-kick was occasionally played (Clark was in the squad in the 70's actually).

If the second translation is indeed correct (Forest contrasted with Liverpool) and considering as Gregoriak suggested that Forest of the late 70's weren't seen in Europe as very attacking/inventive, I would say that perhaps Clough favoured team play over individual indulgence although there was some dribbling at times combined with the passing/triangle style of the teams in general. A lot of the passes were simple in nature but I think stylish when seen in combination. Clough was seen as a daunting/intimidating manager by some but he did say he felt his players played best when they could relax and express themselves (he famously gave them alcohol the night before a big game a couple of times).

NOTE On the main topic I can confirm that Forest did use a 4-4-2 formation the majority of the time!

 

One thing hinted at in the article I would agree with (and would contrast with Forest to an extent) is that Liverpool's defenders were often very good at coming into midfield and joining in with the play. Hansen is the obvious example but Emlyn Hughes as mentioned by Puck could also be useful when joining from defence and later on Mark Lawrenson too. The other Liverpool centre-backs probably didn't play much different to the Forest ones though.

I think Clough saw each player as performing a specialised role in the team which for centre-backs was primarily defending, but it should be said that his instruction was always to "pass to a red shirt" (or presumably a yellow one away from home to a team in red!) when getting possession. Back on the treating the ball as your friend topic - I think that was often part of his team-talk. The Forest full-backs in the late 70's (Anderson, Barrett, Clark) did get high up the pitch and join in with the build-up quite often though as can be seen on the video I posted.

Relating to Forest but also generally, I would say that the 4-4-2 is not as static as it might seem if the central midfield players make a lot of forward runs, move out to the wings to receive the ball from the wingers etc. If two out and out defensive midfielders are in the team that is a different matter.

I think overall a team can give different impressions on diffferent occasions eg I was quite surprised to find out some of the Wembley crowd was showing some dis-satisfaction with Ajax during the 1971 Final - actually because they were holding the ball too long without going forwards and being perceived as negative in that sense apparently. I'm sure the same people would have been very impressed with Ajax at other times or the similar style of Holland in the 1974 World Cup though.

 

I also agree with and understand the reference to Liverpool's "pass and move" style (just that I don't think it was a big contrast to Forest's style). It could be great at times:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAT82pijymM"]FA Cup : Finale 1986 : Liverpool - Everton : 3-1 - YouTube[/ame]
I think it's fair to say there were also times when Liverpool played a little defensive and that certain games in Europe didn't showcase their talents fully (eg did they really play to their potential going forwards in the '84 Final vs Roma? - I don't think they did).

 

My common sense tells me that the article says the Forest and Liverpool were the same.

I don't know how they could have been perceived any differently at the time.

Thou doth protest too much, PDG. Forest was indeed similar to Liverpool in style of play.

 

OK cool, yeah I was starting to think that was the case . The translator coming up with 'one side... and the other side...' threw me a bit I think as I was assuming side meant team. You possibly remember the time (judging by some posts I think I've seen; not sure I've ever seen you say how old you are directly although could be on your profile) and if so it's good to get clarification that they'd be seen in a similar way. So no hard feelings if you ever sang that "we hate Nottingham Forest..." song which I guess stems from that particular era.

It wasn't just a hoax to quote Bobby Robson's compliments about Forest honestly! (And it seems there was some conception in Europe judging by what Gregoriak said that Forest were a bit more pragmatic or even defensive than they often were based on the 2 Finals themselves, so hopefully there's a bit of value in what I've compiled overall).

 

It looks like Twenty26Six is a bit younger than me actually but is obviously well-informed on Liverpool's history and that period is a big part of it of course.

 

I think, overall, Liverpool had more skilled players known for a bit more individual brilliance. But, that shouldn't take away from what Forest was able to do and how they were able to play during that period.

Forest played good football and were certainly not short-cornering hacks that bunkered and countered to win all their games.

However, we must understand that playing a "continental" style did not necessarily mean "stylish. It just meant that teams wanted to hold possession and not needlessly rush things.

 

After so many years lol, I can add a little bit of extra anecdotal evidence to the discussion since I started to have a bit of a look at this latest Arnold Muhren interview I noticed on Youtube, and he says that "Liverpool and Nottingham Forest played more the continental style" in the opening minutes of it (discussing as well how Ipswich's style changed to accomodate himself, as is often stated - Bobby Robson actually was Ipswich manager at this time of course).
KOA special: The boys of ‘81 - Arnold Muhren on UEFA Cup glory - YouTube

I haven't listened to much of the interview yet, but it could be one @PuckVanHeel would be interested in of course, being about Muhren and his time at Ipswich (though there have been similar ones already that you've seen/heard with him talking to Ipswich fans/correspondents Puck IIRC - this one will specifically focus on the UEFA Cup in 80/81 it seems mainly anyway).

That said, maybe a few might have asked after the 1980 Final vs Hamburg - "Which continental style was that - cantennacio" lol! Like I've said I don't think that represents the Forest team that got to those European Cup Finals very well though, even if there was a period towards the beginning of the previous season where in the First Division they had relied on keeping goals out and not scoring a lot (towards the start of that season) - they still scored plenty in the European Cup games relatively early in the season to be fair though.

I remember Gregoriak did post somewhere a 'review' of the 77/78 English league season that was more complimentary in terms of Forest's brand of football anyway. In general possibly the most acclaim they got style wise was about a decade or so later though, being at that time considered enjoyable to watch (which I can vouch for too), albeit sometimes cited as being a counter attacking side (especially in away games), but I think they were just good on the counter attack as opposed to defensive minded (in fact they wouldn't be so good on the counter attack if they were defensive minded moreso because their counter attacks relied on inter-passing and progression of players up the pitch moreso than launches from deep to forwards).

I think they were already considered both an exciting team and a counter attacking team based on games like this from 85/86 away at Manchester United (or even for that matter away at Manchester United in 77/78 with the famous 4-0 win). But along with the later quotes about entertaining fans, not playing in the clouds etc, Clough did already say in the 70s things like "we try to be entertaining" and apparently didn't want his players to concede possession on their 'own pitch' to the extent that the opposition had more of the ball than them, encouraging defenders to push up too at times with that in mind when playing home games.
Man Utd 2 Notts Forest 3 - YouTube

 

West Ham were certainly an English team that played quality football in the 80s too, and this video followed on from the United-Forest one (via one or two others) so I'll post that too, at the risk of going further off topic re: Liverpool and Monchengladbach!
1985-86: West Ham United v Ipswich Town - YouTube