Dutch Top International Players - Model Soldiers of Fortune?

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by HSV-Jung, Sep 8, 2011.

  1. HSV-Jung

    HSV-Jung Member

    Jun 15, 2010
    Frankfurt
    Club:
    Hamburger SV
    Is it just me or are the current top crop of Dutch international players the biggest bunch mercenaries around?

    Let me clarify first. I'm not a hater or a troll, although I'm German I'm a big fan of the Elftal and root for them whenever the German national team is not playing. I'm one of the few Germans to actually own and frequently wear an Dutch national team t-shirt.

    However, I've been quite disappointed with the attitudes of several top Dutch players over the past few years. What prompted me to start this thread were Wesley Sneijder's comments made in several interviews over the last week stating that he would have loved to go to ManU in the summer, leaving the impression of a rat wanting to leave a sinking ship. A number of other Dutch top players frequently irritate their international fans with their loose interpretation of loyalty, among them Robben, van Nistelrooy, van der Vaart, Elia and others who appeared to be hell bent on not being caught on a sinking ship or at a smaller club when they could be playing for a bigger one. As a HSV fan I was really frustrated with Elia's performance over the last two years and his constant expressions of wanting to leave instead of knuckling down and really working hard for his team. I was also disappointed with van Nistelrooy and van der Vaart whom the club and the fans gave all their love but who could not see the last of the club soon enough when Spain came calling.
    At least Arjen Robben is honest about it, he never says how much he loves Bayern, he'll merely say he likes it there right now but in Football anything can happen, he just always wants to play Champions League. Right now I'm just waiting for news that van Persie is looking to leave Arsenal, now that they're not doing so good.
    So why are the Dutch top internationals so fickle in their loyalties? Would it be different if they were playing for Dutch clubs?
    I want to end on a positive note with a most notable exception. Mark van Bommel has to be one of the most big-hearted players ever. I have a great respect for the man as a player and for his attitude, as rough as his play on the pitch may sometimes be. His sending away from Bayern, effected by his countryman van Gaal no less, was certainly their biggest mistake over the last season in a year that was full of mistakes.
     
  2. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Elia was never any trouble at Twente. He was brilliant for us. Maybe German management needs better man handling skills?

    Seriously: all footballers, with very few exceptions, are greedy bastards. I can understand your frustration with the Dutch players at HSV but come on, you don't seriously believe this is typically Dutch do you. I don't even think any of our players are in the top 20 of best paid players in Europe.
     
  3. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    One can also look within the Bundesliga to see how many players jump ship for an opportunity to play at Bayern as opposed to the club team that brought them up through the youth ranks. I don't see much difference here. May Podolski is the only one to every have jumped the Bayern ship for a return trip back. As far as Hamburg goes, you have my sympathies. This club has been so dysfunctional over the past several years that I feel for the fans.
     
  4. HSV-Jung

    HSV-Jung Member

    Jun 15, 2010
    Frankfurt
    Club:
    Hamburger SV
    Yes, I have been frustrated with Dutch players as a HSV fan, at the same time we had some great ones over the last years, too. Kompany, de Jong, Boulahrouz and Mathijsen were all great and will be remembered with fondness. Only the other day Kompany said some very nice things about the club.

    I certainly did not want to attribute any character deficiencies to Dutch players in general. Yes, all players are greedy, but I think its very understandable in most cases. Whereas only 20 years ago a professional Football career did oftentimes not pay enough money to make a livelihood and if it did, it certainly did not set you up for life. Today you can make a decent living playing in the fourth German league and most Bundesliga players are set up for a long time, if not for life (assuming they are smart with their money, which very many are not). I presume it's similar across Europe. That's why I can understand a young player's considerations when he knows that even apart from the chance for glory and a place in football history, a few years of play with a big club will set him up for life. I can understand that an up and coming player from a smaller club won't pass up millions of Euros for every year of play, especially when a severe injury can end your career at any time whether you're with a big or a small club.

    But what I will say about the Dutch is this: They move around much more than anyone else. I just did some looking up on Wikipedia and the following prominent Dutch players have played in at least three of the top four European leagues, i.e. in a total of at least four different national leagues (and I'm not counting pension appointments in the U.S. or the Arabian peninsula): Robben, Sneijder, Huntelaar, van der Vaart, van Nistelrooy, Davids, Boulahrouz, van Bommel and Kluivert. There are probably some more.
    If you look at players who have principally played in three or more different national leagues (again not counting pension appointments), the list becomes nearly endless: Van der Sar, Heitinga, Mathijsen, de Jong, Kompany, Elia, Drenthe, Vennegoor of Hesselink, Babel, Bergkamp, Overmars, both de Boers, Seedorf, Stam, Rijkaard and Gullit.
    The ones who leave the Eredivisie, go to one place and stay there for a long time like van Persie, Kuyt and van Basten are extremely few. Yet that is what most players from the other countries do. This includes most of the players from other countries than England, Spain, Italy, Germany or France with smaller federations who must leave their domestic league once they enter the top flights of football. I can think of only a handful of players who have played in more than two leagues (again not counting pension appointments).
    So why is that? Are the Dutch just more versatile and international or are they indeed soldiers of fortune at heart?
     
  5. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    First of all the Dutch league doesn't pay well. At Twente Elia earned around half a million a year. I'm willing to bet he got quite a lot more at HSV, and even more still at Juve. Dutch players in the premiership often stay at the same club for a long time btw. Underscoring that it's all about money.

    Also a player moves only when he has that option. In other words when other clubs want him. So you could also argue that Dutch players are in high demand, no?
     
  6. JC-14

    JC-14 Member+

    Jan 28, 2010
    Amsterdam
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    It's money and glory. The same incentives that inspire every footballer. Dutch footballers just have to start in the Eredivisie where neither is available nowadays. So that's at least 2 leagues for every accomplished player. Then when a club like Real Madrid buys an entire Dutch enclave and decides to get rid of them 1 or 2 years later, it's not surprising to see them get their 3rd league.

    I don't think the Dutch players are any different than the rest. Perhaps only in having the quality to be a starter for any top club.
     
  7. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    One could successfully argue that Brazilian and Argentinian players are even more mercenary than Dutch players. As JC-14 points out, some of this is a result of a mismatch in the first club transfer (Madrid buying and selling players like they are meat on the hoof).
     
  8. BaritoPutra

    BaritoPutra Member+

    Jan 26, 2007
    Case closed. Just like in a corporate setting, loyalty means that you are giving 100% at your current job, but that doesn't mean you can't go look for other opportunities where the grass is greener.... except for a tiny handful of players, the Paolo Maldini's or Ryan Giggs' of the world.
     
  9. Paganitzu

    Paganitzu Member+

    Aug 16, 2006
    San Diego
    Club:
    PSV Eindhoven
    Cultural, we like to travel.
     
  10. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    1. Can you provide me the exact publication that caused the bad feeling.
    2. Either Eto'o or Sneijder would have been sold this year. A crazy Russian came along that wanted to pay a lot of trasfer money and pay a huge salary. So the first of the two it was. However, it's Inter that made clear to Sneijder in an indirect way he was on the list to go, not the other way around. Sneijder has always said he loved the club and I have seen his eyes twinkeling taling about his time at Inter. he loves them. However United knew he was up for sale and started to sniff at him, as his club would have liked if the Eto'o deal hadn't happened.

    I beg you pardon? Chelsea was oke with selling him as he was to injury prone according to them to build on. He left Real as all Dutchies were ditched by that fascist that leads over there, Perez. Robben brought Bayern single handedly to the CL final and brought them the title. The next season he was injured they were nothing. So every move so far was a club thing and he didn't left this season either. Perfect loyalty so far.

    Is even the other way around. He wanted to play his last WC. Had to leave Madrid as he was bench player. Ruud was noting special at HSV, but he was at Madrid. Don't know what that is. Maybe he was fed better. However they did not let him go when Madrid wanted him back. That was his chance to be selected for the NT. His level at HSV was not good enough. HSV has taken that opportunity from him. RVP was disastrous at the WC. I think RVN would have played the final and we possible would have become WC champion with him. We will never know, but Ruud can't forgive.

    He left united because he was in war with Ferguson, nothing of disloyalty there to find and at both clubs (Real and united) he is still a hero because of his commitment.

    Oke this one pisses me off. It's the league's as the Bundesliga after Bosman that have profited from the new order. Eredivisie became a feeder league and clubs as HSV have profited in a huge fashion. "Dubbeltje op de eerste rij" we call that in Holland. HSV were chosen bij VDV as an in between step towards a balanced career. He had a bad period at Ajax, HSV saw that and took the opportunity. Good German players go to Bayern. Recently the keeper from Schalke. That's far worse and Madrid is a huge step up compared to HSV or Bayern. You would rather have lost him to Bayern? they didn't even want him by the way. Your club sold him for good money and profited in the first place from the fact Dutch players have to do foreign career planning if they are really good. Now you use the thing against him, that allowed your club to have him in the first place and again sold him for good money. That's hypocrite.

    More to do with confidence. He became more of a bench player and he needed another club to find himself again. He was unhappy. With him you can make the case of fighting harder maybe.

    I have pointed out the reasons. In both cases it's the other way around. In case of Ruud you can even say how beautiful it is that he did everything for his country. Everything. What a guy, what a model of loyalty. In that HSV year, it was not about club anymore. it was about finding proving ground to play his last WC ever. I bet he would have scored in the final and would have been immortal now. HSV was to small to minded to award him that future.

    After Messi and Ronanldo he is the best player in the world if he can stay fit. You think he has become that player without being ambitious? Bayern has to be very happy with such a loyal player.

    Ahum. You mean the best player of Arsenal the past years if fit and the only top player that stayed year after year without winning the title? ALL the top players left. ALL (including the Flamini's) except him and you want to go after him. That's delusional

    Because they are ......... not. They maybe do better career planning taking one extra club between Dutch top and international top in a club like HSV that likes to profit from that career path.

    Well if you live in a league that is big enough you don't have to leave. Netherlands has also the problem of producing the best players in the world, so that's kind of an attraction for big foreign clubs to go after them. Many Danes like to use Ajax as an in between step for the absolute top but I don't see their fans going to the Danish forum and ask why their players are so fickle in their loyalty. They understand the Danish league is even more a feeder league than the Eredivisie and they profit from that. They would feel ashamed by bringing up such a question that communicates a total self centered view of the world.

    Again a player loyal to a club but sent away. I looked up all the players you have listed beneath and in all cases it's the same. Dutch players that have played for multiple clubs abroad have either failed and moved on or took an in between club to grow steadily, bringing extra money to the club or were finishing their career for some final bucks they would never made in the Netherlands if they would have returned. Often it's a combination of all three.

    Dutch players are known as very committed and loyal

    You listed Bergkamp, but why don't you go to the Arsenal forum and tell them he was fickle in his loyalty. I'm going to get some popcorn if you decide to do so.

    Go to the Juve forum and tell Davids was fickle in his loyalty. He was a cult hero there.

    Seedorf is the carrier of the Milan culture now Maldini is gone. My sister was at the Dutch embassy in Rome and Belusconi came a whole hour specially for Seedorf. He was over the moon he stayed one more year at Milan.

    vd Sar? Fickle. Go to the United forum and go tell them what you think of his fickelness. They will laugh at you.

    Rijkaard hero at Milan. They will laugh at you. After Cryuff the longest serving trainer at Barca.

    v Basten same thing.

    I can go on and on. I think that Dutchies contrary to others stay very loyal to their club if they are wanted there. It's guys like Ronaldo (both) that move on also if the club wanted them to stay and they already were at a real top club. Can't name a single Dutch player that does not posses that feeling of wanting to mean something for the top club they finally reached and build and go after creating a bond. Cruyff went to Barca but could have gone to Madrid. Stayed loyal to that club and he is a hero there because of his loyalty.

    Final thing I want to say is have some realism. Know what HSV is and what the game is your own club have benefited from playing. Not the football game I mean.
     
  11. HSV-Jung

    HSV-Jung Member

    Jun 15, 2010
    Frankfurt
    Club:
    Hamburger SV
    Alright, alright I recant: Dutch players are not fickle in their loyalties; at least not more so than players from anywhere else, perhaps even a little less, as DRB300 has attempted to demonstrate. I only said that in the first post to provoke more responses and I never meant to say that all the players I listed in the second post are fickle, that's a misunderstanding. However, I do stand by my principal observation, but I will get to that later.

    I am under absolutely no illusions about the role of Hamburg as another waystation for top players. We all understand how the transfer market works and HSV has profited from the way it works many, many times. I also appreciate that the sports journalists are like sharks in bloody water when it comes to getting players to make uncareful statements come transfer season, especially because they have no games to write about. So they're always trying to provoke the players to say something newsworthy and if not that, at least something that will give fans a bit to talk about. But the players know all this and they know that the perception of a player as having loyalty or being a mercenary is all about the way a transfer is communicated, in most cases they are told what to say by their clubs and that's why they should know better. Of course the Dutch are no better or worse in this than anyone else, but since you asked I will give you some examples where Dutch players could have communicated things better:

    Wesley Sneijder: It may well be that he loved his time at Inter and I also understand that his transfer to ManU has been discussed since last year and it will be probably happen next summer so he wants to be careful to put off neither side. But in recent weeks he has repeatedly said that he would have loved to go to ManU in the summer (I read that on goal.com, but it was widely reported). If you read that and alongside all the reports about how Inter is not doing so well right now and perceived to be on a downward slope, how can you not interpret that as a statement coming from someone who doesn't want to be caught on a sinking ship?

    Raphael van der Vaart: He committed the ultimate no-no. He was the uncrowned king of Hamburg, everyone loved him and at the very first sign of interest from Real he did everything to force a transfer; he even flew down to Spain and had pictures taken with him holding up a Real jersey with his name, which were published in the news, before the clubs had ever started the first negotiations. He was well in his rights to want to transfer to a bigger club, but the way he went about it he showed absolutely no respect for the team he still had a contract with and which had given him nothing but praise until that time. However, I will say that his conduct and play in the following period made up for what he did and today most fans would like him back. Not buying him back last year when he was up for grabs from Real was perhaps the biggest mistake Hamburg has made in a long time. I think it would have even been worth it to take out some debt, Tottenham only paid EUR 9m in the end.

    Eljero Elia: I realize he had a tough time coming back from his injury and he was playing under crap coaches that did not help him much to develop. At the same time I believe he could have talked less crap about the club in the media and worked a little harder himself. He probably makes more money a Juve, at the same time this is just another waystation if he wants to progress to the real top clubs, which he could perhaps have done next year directly from Hamburg without a detour if he had worked harder. Now he'll have to stick it out at Juve for a while if he doesn't want to get burned. I still wish him well.

    Ruud van Nistelrooy: DRB300, the way you described this was a little incorrect with respect to the timeframe, he never had a chance to play in South Africa. He came to Hamburg from Real in early February 2010, he was still injured and had not really played for nearly a year and a half (he was only subbed in two or three times). He did not play a full game for HSV before Mid-April and in Mid-May the league season was over and the teams were leaving for the WC training camps. He never had a chance. His chances to return to the Elftal came after the World Cup. He had finally begun to return to form in Hamburg, which had not only given him a huge salary but also all the recovery resources that money could buy, now it was finally starting to pay off and he wanted to go straight back to Spain at the first sign of possible interest for a gap-filler. That was somewhat disrespectful, as was the response from the Hamburg management and RvN's conduct afterwards and as usual the press only exacerbated the situation. In retrospect, they should have just let him go there and then.

    Arjen Robben: This guy just wants to play at the top level and he doesn't care where that is, at least he's honest and has never professed any special ties to Bayern. However, I believe your assessment of Bayern was not entirely fair. First of all, as things stand right now, experts not only in Germany but across Europe believe that Bayern is among the top four contenders for the Champions League Title. Before Bayern only comes Barca, then Real and possibly ManU, depending on who you ask (I realize the betmakers all seem to give ManCity and Chelsea a better chance than Bayern), so he is playing in the very top flight of football as he would not go back to Real or Chelssea and neither Barca nor ManU are looking to pay a huge amount for a right-winger right now. Secondly, he knows about his fragile physical condition and Hoenness has stated (only this week, and it sounds correct) that the excellent work of the Bayern physical department will also factor into the decision of Robben to sign an extension with Bayern. In the end it's not only Robben who is good for Bayern, but Bayern is a good place for him also.

    Finally I do stick to what I said about Dutch players moving around a lot and I still wonder why that is. Let me say what I mean more precisely: Dutch players move from club to club just as much or little as anyone else, but when they do move, they seem to have a much greater propensity to switch leagues than players from any other country. Off the top of my head I can't think of any non-Dutch player that has played in three of the big four (or five if you want to include France) leagues in Europe. Most South Americans, Eastern Europeans, Africans or Scandinavians will come to one of the top leagues and then usually stay in that league when they switch again, a handful will go to another league once, but not in scores like the Dutch and I really can't think of anyone to make a third switch in the big leagues. It's just conspicuous, don't you think.
    It probably really is a cultural thing and the whole Real episode when that idiot Perez bought half the Dutch national team probably is a big factor here, but I still find it worthy of note and discussion.
     
  12. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I don't think this is quite right. You are really talking about a handful of Dutch football players relative to the larger number who play their entire careers in The Netherlands. There are a significant number of South American players who move around as much if not more (Diego Forlan being the most recent example). One primary reason for moving on is that the original transfer just didn't work out (remember Bergkamp moved to Italy after starting with Ajax and then moved to Arsenal for the remainder of his career; Van der Sar's Italian sojourn was not successful either and of course the recent Madrid fiasco).
     
  13. BaritoPutra

    BaritoPutra Member+

    Jan 26, 2007
    Well, this is how history is made. :p
    Case in point: Seedorf, Champions League winner with three different clubs.
     
  14. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    HSV-Jung: I can't help but think that you're posting all of this purely out of frustration with the Dutch players who left HSV.

    Consider this. My club Twente lost an entire starting XI over the past 24 months and most players left for financial reasons - a number of them for German clubs. We lost a coach to the Bundesliga who had pretty much spent his entire professional football career at Twente, both as a player and as a coach. I'm just saying, you're not alone mate. Only fans of clubs at the top of the football food chain do not have this problem. I'm not really sure why you're taking it out on the Dutch. That's just modern football for you.

    By the way, you could find some good examples in the Bundesliga of players who swear allegiance to their club one minute and then the next join Bayern.
     
  15. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    At least our players aren't choosing to go to Russia. Now that to me is genuinely selling out.
     
  16. windycity

    windycity Member

    Oct 19, 2001
    Where do you think
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Not sure why everyone expects loyalty to the club in the 1st place - players have a limited career in which to make their money and it's not like Clubs show much loyalty either. Not much different than any other workplace in that respect.

    On a completely separate note - got my Liverpool away jersey and man is it nice - my wife even said so and she hates football
     
  17. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Demy de Zeeuw is the only one, correct?
     
  18. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Yes.

    He's not Dutch but Ruiz had multiple offers from Russian clubs.
     
  19. dreamingoranje

    dreamingoranje New Member

    Aug 17, 2011
    Club:
    AZ
    the notion of loyalty in football is a weird one. most people when offered more money to do the same job elsewhere would say yes to it, particularly if it meant moving to a more successful company too.
     
  20. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I was thinking only of the Dutch players who moved to Russia; of course Luke Wilkshire of your club transferred to Russia.
     
  21. pablo85

    pablo85 Member

    Jul 22, 2007
    Do you think they leave the country for a nice German society and the topteam called HSV? The only reason is money and fame. Live with it.

    If Dutch players were loyal, they would never have played for HSV but stayed in their region, they don't give a rats ass about HSV, why would they?

    ps. How do you manage to screw up one of the biggest talents in Dutch history? Only the Germans can, with their anti football. Glad he left, was ruining his career there.
     
  22. TFC Ajax

    TFC Ajax Member+

    Mar 20, 2011
    Greater Toronto Area
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    harsh... but true. when Dutch players move abroad, it isn't because they love an other club/city so much more than their Eredivise club. they leave because they want to play on the best teams in europe, win big trophies, make good money, become better players and secure their place on the national team. Playing on a sinking ship goes against all of the above reasons to go abroad.
    Players playing on sinking ships don't get called up to the NT, they aren't winning trophies, if they aren't a financial burden to that team, then they aren't making good enough money, the players around them aren't world class, so they don't become better players, and they clearly aren't on a top team. If a foreign team can't give you those things, why play for them. Players who can't properly plan their careers become Ryan Babel.

    Oh, and considering that we're #1 in the world, I would say our players have found a way to make themselves the best players by not tying themselves down to one team for their entire careers
     
  23. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    This is clearly not the case for a number of Dutch NT players. Mathijsen, Oojier, and Heitinga went abroad and really never played for top rank teams (other than the one year Hamburg qualified for CL football) yet all three have been the principal starters in the center defense. Bouhlarouz also fits this as well though Van der Wiel has supplanted him at right fullback. Stekelenberg stayed in country until this August and never really had international club success and is now at Roma where it's uncertain whether that club will do well (crashing out of the EL is not good). It's really the attacking players who have moved up to the top clubs and command big salaries.
     
  24. vagegast

    vagegast Member

    Sep 25, 2004
    Herndon, VA
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Loyalty to a sports team should only be reserved for fans and fans only.

    Players are employees and if you can live in a nicer city, for a nicer club, for better pay on a higher level.... uhm, what would YOU do?
     

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