Review: Dutch Moroccan and Dutch Turkish players who choose country of heritage over the Dutch NT. Analyses.

But that's where I think that you focus too much on Islam. There was a period of my life (a few years ago) where I was reading everyday some nationalist and anti muslim french websites. Those websites are posting the same kind of articles that you're posting about Islam, they also reveal every anecdote where muslims/arabs would act bad in the world, agressions against whites, proofs of lack of developpement etc.
I arrived at a point where I was telling to my arab friends that we were the worst people on the planet, that we should improve ourselves etc.

Then I eventually travelled, started to know about other religions, cultures, History...And I understood how the manipulation is working. I understood how important the media exposure is . Here there is a website which is called "fdesouche" and which is a 100% french nationalistic website. All the articles are about immigrants, how they act, what they believe in etc. and half of the comments are insulting and hating. You can even read comments such as "dirty muslims should be killed", "blacks are monkeys" etc. that wouldn't even be removed by the moderators. This website already reached more than 100millions of visitors in the world, and it has a base of 100k daily visitors. 100k visitors who come to read articles about how bad muslims are, to watch videos of them acting uncivilized etc. and it's not limited to France, they would also show you a video of a muslim acting bad in Alska or New Guinea.
They used to show fights between supporters and players in Egypt, but I wonder why they didn't put anything about Russia vs Montenegro yesterday...

Immigrants don't have such wesbites. I'd like to see the contrary. A website showing videos of drunk eastern europeans acting like animals, of chinese people letting their children to shit in a middle of the street (which is apparently normal in their culture), of latinos killing each other for 50$ of drugs in South America.
Unfortunetaly the medias are controlled by jews and europeans and they know how to make people to hate immigrants. Immigrants don't really have structures and organizations to defend themselves. There is a french humourist, Dieudonné, who is considered as the best french humourist and he is very poltical. He did many shows about the medias manipulation etc. and they are actually banning most of his shows, he is always fighting against courts. He was even banned to enter the United Kingdom. So yeah, you can't blaspheme in the muslim countries, but you can't talk about jews and the medias manipulation in europe neither.


It's funny to see that a 100% german pilote just killed 150 people but that no media didn't even use the word "psychopath", they started to suspect terrorism, but when they realized that the pilote was german and apparently far to be muslim, they switched to a unexplained suicide. Of course germans won't have any problems with that. When an arab kills 3 people in europe, you have 5 tv shows the coming days talking about integration and multiculturalism.

You talked about that algerian student who suffered to be gay. Islam and the culture in Algeria are obviously homophobic but how much ? Algeria doesn't have sharia, no one is killed or severly beaten for being gay there.



That won't happen to him in Algeria.

The worst is that you can find plenty of russian facebook pages who support this anti gay band. Not only men, also russian girls support them. I wouldn't even put any north african country next to Russia when it comes to being homophobic. So why to focus on Islam again ?

 

I put "europeans" just after "jews", why didn't you highlight it ?

Where is the insult to say that most of the medias are controlled by jews ? That's a fact. Go to check how many Cohen and Levy work as directors.

It doesn't mean that all jews are anti immigrants or whatever, just that some powerful jewish lobby are controlling a big part of the medias.

 

Easy guys. Unfortunately all discussions , threads, blogs or forums were ruined at some point by religion , politics or racism , but I really think this thread can be an exception.
Don't lock the thread. We can all discuss , ask , respond and know each other in a better way by threads like this.
I'll be back after the game. Hup Oranje for now .
Cheers.

 

The antisemitic word is as silly as islamophobia.

I'm myself much more semetic than any of the jews who invented this word. More than half of the jews (ashkenazi ones) don't have any semetic root. They are originally khazars.
The sepharadic jews are originally from Iberia and went to north africa, the balkans and the middle east, some of them might be semetic, some others no.

This definition has been etablished in order to put any insult against the jews on a racial perspective, playing with the ignorance of people, cause jews don't have any specific race, they have many ethnic groups, just like muslims and christians. You don't have any word like that for muslims and christians. That's another part of the manipulation I was talking about.

You have to know that the zionism lobbys are all ashkenazis, the media control I'm talking about etc. are also orchestred by ashkenazis. And the stereotype of jews being rich is also something that refers to ashkenazis. The jews who are living in north africa aren't specifically rich, dominant or whatever.
The ashkenazi don't consider the sepharadi as their equal and are oppressing them even in Israel, you would find many north african jews in France who hate them and who would tell you that they are controlling everything.
I never put jews in the same package, just like for any other religion, you have different groups.

I'm not attacking any race, and I'm even not attacking any religion, I'm attacking a specific group of jews, just like you have the right to attack the muslims who wanna put their rules everywhere.

 

I would not lock the thread its discussion if issues that are also steemed in the football world aswell

Just look at the Serbia- Albania match or when Isreal play Turkey or when Portugal play Germany or even when the Russians play Ukraine

That's the only thing I despise about international football it can bring out the worst in people

 

When was there ever a problem between Portugal and Germany? I remember really aggressive games between Portugal and Holland, but at least in Germany there has never been any particular resentment towards Portugal. There is absolutely no rivalry either.

 

I was thinking about the same thing...I have no idea what he's talking about.

 

DRB300 is so much like miss Neeskens. He fabricates things and put it up as my opinion. He is an arrogant person, that rides high on our moral superiority horse, but when i put holes in that he reacts again as miss Neeskens used to do by attacking me on matters that are not relevant on the subject and in themselves were fabrications of what I think from his mind. He also rides the horse of intellectual superiority by dismissing my comments about the way Dutch people reacted on the killing of innocent children in Norway, by calling it pulp.
Psycologists have a neame for that disease, it goes by the name of "confirmation bias", in which you have an opinion and search for what supports it. All his quotes are from biased sites. He fails to mention contradictory facts.
It isnot for nothing I called to close this down, as it all started with players that choose against his prefernce and gradually it turned into downgrading those players via the religious road.

 

I don't know if some people here are familiar with the name Louis Theroux but he was on national television Friday. He compared the Scientology Church with Islam. He's a documentary maker with an eye for tensions, frictions and irreconcilable principles. He is a educated as an historian though.
It was both unsurprising and interesting that he mentioned the history of Holland as protestant country, with a tolerant tradition (at least more so than many other countries), that meets challenges when the tolerated is intolerable. For a country that has had an unusual sense of pragmatism (a different historical track of tolerance compared with his home country, he believes) when it comes to differences, it is a tough nut to crack and decipher.

For a seemingly politically correct guy as he is, it was surprising to hear him likening the "head-on aggression of" the Scientology Church with the Islam. Especially in light of what he says about dealing with 'weirdos' and 'stupid persons' that he meets in his documentary, and that he genuinely doesn't like those concepts either.

 

Well, there he's wrong. I have to look it up, but it was an English author/historian specialized in the Dutch enlightenment, named Israel ( I think, it is a while ago I read one of his books). He wrote a book called if I remember correctly "Radical Enlightenment", excactly about the philosophers, like Spinoza, that were not protestants, far from it. I come from a protestant background, known in the USA as the Dutch reformed church (Gereformeerde kerk), and that was the dominant church in the Golden Age. Believe me, they arenot tolerant at all. It were the people like Spinoza that put, together with the pragmatism of the merchants, us on the map as tolerant.

 

Israel is an Englishman. Which is typical, that foreigners define our history writing. Foreigners who invented lores as the flying Dutchman.

I tend to disagree. Were protestants as tolerant as Spinoza his dream society? No, and I know how the strict guys in Staphorst can be, and that the contraremonstrants won (for a century). But they certainly tend to be more tolerant than the Catholics. It was a step forward, felt centuries later. For example, it is well-researched how much more antisemitic the Catholic Church and their followers were pre-WWII. Other than the fascists itself, parties like the Zentrumpartei (openly Catholic) were arguably the most antisemetic in their policies. Also after WWII the Catholics tend to be a fair bit more antisemitic, significantly so.
And guess who's the most famous Dutch politician raging for the Palestine cause? Indeed, former prime minister Dries van Agt (also called 'Dries Hamas'). Former leader of the Catholic People's Party. The same guy who gave the order to shoot with hollow point ammunition on Moluccans.

 

There's some truism in that. An estimated 35% of the Afrikaners are of Dutch descent, and their Church had distant ties to the Dutch reformed church though they gave their own morbid twist to it.
Back in Holland it was the orthodox protestant SGP who supported apartheid the most of all (http://www.refdag.nl/oud/bui/990602bui11.html), but peculiarly ARP (the mainstream protestant party) was more anti-apartheid as the KVP (the Catholics) according to that scientific research. It was also the protestant Ronald Reagan and protestant Margareth Thatcher who saw Mandela and his followers as unmitigated "terrorists". The most anti-apartheid were the Communist Party and then Pacifist Party (who won seats in parliament with unqualified pacifism as their main point).

Anyway, here's that programme with the Louis Theroux guy: http://www.npo.nl/college-tour/27-03-2015/VPWON_1236387 (just as mere supplement).

 

http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4492/Nede...terke-toename-antisemitische-incidenten.dhtml
http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/aantal-meldingen-antisemitisme-neemt-toe~a3941348/

http://www.nrcreader.nl/artikel/6318/antisemieten-als-helden-ingehaald-in-moslimwereld

 

I have been reading the discussions since long and I think it is a fantastic thread with open and free discussion which is highly informative. I wanted to contribute but I was looking for the discussion to cool down so I don't have to indulge in an unnecessary banter here rather than cool headed discussion. I am fundamentally an atheist and I am very lucky to be born in an atheist family where I was encouraged to follow what I believe in without influence or prejudice. I have never indulged in any religion so I can give what I believe is a fair view.

I believe there is a fundamental problems with all religions including Islam where the quantum of problem is much more. Some of the provisions of kin marrying in unscientific and generally repulsive to me. You add polygamy, low fundamental rights for women, too high fertility rate and I think the religion needs serious work. The religion in itself from its roots of kin marrying was fundamentally not acceptable to me. Since I am fundamentally against religion which I feel is just a means to divide, I will be more against any religion which encourages over indulgence with the religion. Islam with its regular multi time Namaz, 1 Month fasting, etc is possibly the most extreme case which is why I am largely against it.

Having said that I think the religion in itself is getting a bit of unnecessary flak over here with a holier than thou attitude. I am reading about the Free West, tolerant Christianity and the peaceful nature of the Dutch. All this 1 Find very ironical because Christianity had a history of bloody conquest too. As peace-loving as the Netherlands is, it also has a history of colonization. Everyone had blood on their hands at some point. So let's not play the angel over here.

I think where credit is due is the fact that Christianity in itself grew and evolved over time as did the West. The repeated attacks on dogmatic religious practices coupled with the idea of promoting a non-violent freedom and democratic set-up has been majorly successful in the West. I admire that. Everyone religion, society must evolve with time.

What is right in 2015 may not be right in 2025 and may make a comeback in 2035. This whole idea of Jesus or Prophet or the Quran/Bible being the be-it-all model for the next 100's of years is absolutely unscientific and ridiculous. Islam as a religion has not evolved. Most Islamic countries are also characterized by poor spread of science and a very mediocre education network. Now exposure to science and education has a profound effect on the development of a human being. The West with its strong educational, democratic network has managed to create an educated, informed society.

Islam is still stuck with rulers and fundamental Islamic and Sharia Education. I hope the religion and people evolve. I think every human being has an insatiable urge for peace, freedom, justice, equality, basic education, infra, healthcare, etc and I think that will ultimately rise up and we will see people disillusioned with religion and be more focused on improving the lives of human beings than on the propagation of religion.

 

To DRB's Slavery Index Scenario -

I am a fan of such informed reasoning backed with facts and index but not necessarily for the purpose of putting data. After going through the same, I found this largely ridiculous. In anyways, this is what the webpage says about it -


The Global Slavery Index is an annual ranking of slavery conditions in countries (2013 n = 162) world wide published by the Walk Free Foundation.It is based on a combined measure of three factors: 1) estimated prevalence of modern slavery by population (using primary and secondary data sources); 2) a measure of child marriage; and 3) a measure of human trafficking in and out of a country.

The Global Slavery Index appears to be highly controversial. According to researchers Andrew Guth, Robyn Anderson, Kasey Kinnard and Hang Tran, an analysis of the Index's methods reveals significant and critical weaknesses and raises questions about its replicability and validity. Moreover, the publicity given to the Index is leading to the use of its poor data not only by popular culture and reputable magazines and news outlets but also by academic journals and top policy makers.[1]

Moreover, some countries, for which no data were available, were given the same rate as countries which were judged to be similar. For example, prevalence rates for Britain were applied to Ireland and Iceland and those for America, to several western European nations, including Germany. This aspect of the methodology has attracted some criticism too.[2]

(Even considering the fact that I a not a huge fan of this index ) - it takes into account 3 main factors - Modern Slavery(which is obsolete in most countries), Child Marriage and Human Trafficking.

I would argue that the later 2 plays a pivotal role in this -> and these are directly related to the level of education and economic prosperity of a country. With a higher education and economic prosperity among the masses such things would naturally decrease. It is not surprising that countries with a good education base and high reasonable high per capita earning are naturally more favourably placed even in this flawed index

 

The very highest estimate is 600000 traded slaves over the course of three centuries, never being higher than 5% of world production really. Some people believe that Holland (the state of Holland in particular) was a major player in the slave trade, but they never were. As bad as it was, it is compared to other colonizers not particularly bloody.
Excuse me to say this, but this episode as biggest offence on 'our' track record pales in comparison to pulling several millions through the meat-grinder. Honestly.