Review: Dutch Moroccan and Dutch Turkish players who choose country of heritage over the Dutch NT. Analyses.

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Mar 14, 2015.

  1. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Here are some of the past contributions behind the spoiler buttons. I will add more in the next post:

    DRB300 (open)

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    El Ghazi gives us a clear insight into his line of thinking. These are his well articulated words, so he owns it. Netherlands is a calculated choice, Morocco is his pride.

    I would always keep supporting the NT if we drop out of the top 100 and not make the tournaments anymore. Sure I would come down hard on my NT, but it is in my heart. This joker basically says that Netherlands is a nice opportunity for his career, a good podium, but that his pride with Morocco. End of discussion.

    Narsingh over this clown every day of the week, even if he plays in wheel chair. What does he think? You can say these things as we are only Kuffar country and can get away with second rate treatment of it? He can f**** himself and he is not even a good player. Aissaidi is a much better dribbler than him. What kind of skill has El Ghazi to really get past people? He can look clumsy at times in the process. He is goal oriented. I might give him a bit of credit in that department, but he often enough does not score. Where was he today against Dnipro? Was he special? Not to me.

    The Dutch NT should be a prerogative for people that will defend it's colors with honor:

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    If that is too much to ask, then don't bother. Next.



    Laurent75 (open)
    What he said could be also said by Afellay or half of the black players Holland got. Nigel doesn't sing the national anthem for example.

    We all know that it's modern to be against western countries when you are an immigrant/son of immigrants. Or at least to be indifferent.

    Now you can also consider the problems of integration. He made it and became footballer, but he probably grew up with guys who are staying on the streets right now, would they like to see him being super proud of the dutch shirt and things like that ? It's street mentality. He doesn't really have the choice.

    Actually I've never really rated the theory saying that players would sweat much more when they feel represented and love their country. That's probably true in the amateur football, but once we are talking about high level and money, not anymore. El Ghazi would probably give the best he has if he is playing with the oranje shirt in a semi finale against Brazil. Simply because all the big clubs are watching and because his career in on the table.
    If he is playing with Morocco against Botswana, he would probably walk on the field like the super proud Amrabat and Labyad did.

    So yeah he prefers Morocco above the Netherlands but it doesnt mean that he wont give his best with the orange shirt.



    Abhirup (open)
    I honestly can't fathom why El Ghazi is considered good enough for Oranje. He has decent technique,a hard shot and that's pretty much it!! I've never seen him dribbling past his direct opponent on the flank. He does the same thing over and over again with limited or no success. In fact he can't dribble at all. He might have been a decent option as a striker but then again he's not very good in tight spaces.



    Orange14 (open)
    I'm sorry but you are all drawing conclusions without even knowing what goes on in the mind of a 19 year old kid. Do any of you know what his family origins are? How many relatives does he still have living in Morocco? How strong are his ties to that country?

    Football is a mercenary sport and always has been. Look what happens on the club level (and you can go back to the Madrid teams of the 1950s that were largely built on the talents of di Stefano and Puskas who in no way were trained in Spain). It exists today and has for some time at the NT level (I've lost count of the number of Germans who play/played for the US NT; and by rights Subotic should be playing for us as well rather than Serbia since his early development took place here). Look what van Basten tried to do back in 2006 in getting Kalu naturalized prior to the WC. I remember the outrage among NT supporters when the judge ruled that he could not gain citizen status. Witness the debates that took place on this forum when Douglas was still at FC Twente and people were calling for his inclusion in the NT.

    If you guys are really honest you either accept this or call for el Ghazi's immediate expulsion from the U-19 team. You cannot have it both ways.



    DRB300 (open)
    This is the thing though. Netherlands is like the opposite of the United States. This whole street idea does not fly in the same way living in a welfare state. Sure, it is not anymore like in the past, but it is still pretty damn good compared to the rest of world. If he was born with some defects like authism, everything is lined up to take care of him. Does Morocco? No they would not. I am not even sure they have benefits lining up for people who can not pull through live on their own. If people are out of a job, they get help as well. Both money for their monthly expenses and help in looking for a job. Does Morocco?

    This is where it gets even more dishonest from where I am standing. What was the best Moroccan player ever produced on Moroccan soil the last decade or so? Where does this explosion of Moroccan talent come from? Not from their own soil, but from the football academia in country's like France, Netherlands and maybe Spain now a little bit as well. There is a clear causality between the two. It matters what kind of infrastructure is at your disposel. It matters if an organistion made a good schedule to setup a comeptition against players you have to give your all against to beat them (challanges make people grow). It matters if there is a decent ref at such games. It matters if there is transportation or not. It matters of there is are good educated coaches during the week to improve you. It matters if there are examples in society that make you believe that the top is reachable. It matters if there are pro clubs in the neighberhood to take things to another level if you display talent. The way football is setup in a country forms a player to what he becomes. Many clubs can barely make it in the Netherlands and heavily depend on volunteers who keep things running. Often enough these people are actually old and still carry on with their responsibility's in the club. These people have helped to keep the KNVB tree alive and strong. Where is the sense of gratitude to these people? Have they ever considered that? It is normal to be thankful with all that in place, or you must be a total ungrateful spoiled brat.

    The black players until recently never had a choice (we will find out about them soon enough, if Suriname accepts players not born on their soil as eligible to play for their NT). I do subscribe to your notion though, that a fair amount of them maybe played without feeling a special kind of pride. Not so much in this generation, however the generation before this one, was venomous at times. I am looking at Seedorf, Davids, Kluivert, Bogarde and maybe more. We can also see that on the field that this does not have to be a hinderance, as Davids was sensational at times in 1998.

    However this is where we differ. Over the whole of it, it does matter. How the hell did 2010 and 2014 do better than 1998? Also in 1996 a rapture in the group cohesion killed our attempt to win the Euro. I truly felt back then, that we could win it. Ajax just won the CL, group had automatism together and I thought we would make a really deep run. Group cohesion is a powerful factor in team sports, it is not that quantifiable, but it matters a lot. To get that, you need people who do not play the damaged guy by society persona all the time. There is a lot of imitation going on in this thing. A lot of them look at these rappers from across the ocean and just start to build on that, rather than to grow in healthy balanced individuals. I always felt Davids had some peat fires burning inside of him. It is fine if he brings stuff up to improve our society (never did) or as a way to heal from it (never did), but I sense that a lot it is to hang on and a way to communicate this "not understood by society persona" if that makes any sense. This has hurt the NT. We didn't get out of that generation what we should have and their media appearances made me sick. It was funny to see how Seedorf did not want to be reminded of that period when pundit Derksen visited and interviewed him in Brazil. Apparently Seedorf was not feeling well about it in hindsight and I am glad that is the case. He shouldn't as it was totally misplaced.

    I don't want that to happen again. BMI is an example for all. Not this troubled bullshit, not this angry at the country that gave him all these possibilities persona. The guy is just happy where he is and he should be. Wijnaldum, is there a guy with a more beautiful smile? Hard warming. You see, it is perfectly possible. Just normal guys, happy to be there. I think Boulah was also a normal guy. Dutch Moroccan and a pretty balanced individual. There are fine examples of people that do not invest in this hate or indifference for their country. There can be rightful grievances, but that is not an exclusive right for immigrants. A lot of people have problems. It also depends on what a person spends his mental energy on. That is a choice and it can also be focussed on all the things I mentioned above. Do they have eye for that as well? Do they see all these volunteers at clubs working for nothing so that kids can sharpen their skills and have fun? Did Morocco do all these things for kids like him or did the Netherlands?



    Laurent75 (open)
    I agree with the whole idea of the post but some things should be discussed.

    Every immigrant who made it as a footballer should be thankful to his adoption country for offering him all the ideal conditions to make it. Now, you know that sport and politics are linked. Here in France you can often here politicians or sport personnalities saying things such as "there are too many blacks in the french team". Or debating about halal meat in the french's team menu. Things are probably a bit less like that in Holland as you are a smaller country. Also the difference is that black players in Holland are all from a christian background I believe, while half of the blacks in France are muslims. If that was the case in Holland, you would probably hear Wilders talking about the muslim invasion in the dutch NT etc. and then I'm not sure that the black dutch players would sing the national anthem and express their love to the country anymore.

    That's probably how El Ghazi feels, as footballer he can only be thankful to Holland, but as an individual belonging to the moroccan muslim communauty, is it right for him to be ? The western europe is currently at a period where the question of integration and identital culture is very strong. And many medias and politicians are trying to oppose the muslim immigrants to local people. So he would be considered as a coward if expressing his love to the country. Maher said that Israel was a wonderful country during the EC-21 there, many muslims websites attacked him. When Chadli said that he feels belgian, he was criticized and some moroccans hackers attacked his website. So even if El Ghazi feels dutch, I'm not sure he would express it.




    For all reactions, go to this page.
     
  2. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Here some more:

    DRB300 (open)
    Alright, politics and sports are linked. Let's have it then.

    Does this opposition to Islam happen in isolation, in a vacuüm, or are they preceded by actions from and claims first? Would Muslims feel the same grievances about Palestina if there lived only Christians? Is there a case for them to feel discriminated compared to the practices of their original country or their religion?

    Let's first start with the last question. Let's take a country like Morocco and see how they deal with theír minority's:

    • Link
    • Nearly all Moroccans are Muslims. While the small Jewish community is permitted to practice its faith without government interference, Moroccan authorities are growing increasingly intolerant of social and religious diversity, as reflected in arrest campaigns against Shiites, Muslim converts to Christianity, and those opposed to a law enforcing the Ramadan fast.

    How is it even possible for a country to get to the point that nearly all people are of the same religion in the first place if not for serious pull and push forces, both from the government and society favoring it over the others? Meaning, not treating all religions the same? Meaning discriminating. Those are not healthy numbers from where I am standing. It actually looks creepy.

    Let's inspect this closer:

    • Link
    • The Human Rights Committee has explained that, underArticle 18 of the ICCPR, “the freedom to ‘have or to adopt’ a religion or belief necessarily entails the freedom to choose a religion or belief, including the right to replace one’s current religion or belief with another. This right does not exist in Morocco. (See Section 2, infra.)
    • Morocco’s anti-proselytism laws have prohibited public expression concerning non Islamic religions. As such, Moroccan law directly violates Articles 18 and 19 of the ICCPR by restricting Moroccans’ ability to freely obtain religious information. In addition, Moroccan law does not appear to allow for “proselytism,” even if a Moroccan citizen intentionally sought the information or first consented to hearing about another faith. Further, the Moroccan government has violated Article 27 of the ICCPR by creating a climate in which even legally permitted religious practice is deterred by virtue of government surveillance and arrests (see Section 2).
    • There are now estimates of as many as 5,000–25,000 Christians in Morocco, which increases the chance for conflict in the country, as Islam is Morocco’s state religion.
    • Moroccan civil law does not prohibit voluntary conversion. However, Morocco actively prohibits attempts to proselytize Sunni Maliki Muslims. Foreigners have been “arrested, detained and/or expelled for discussing or trying to engage Moroccans in debate about Christianity.” Moreover, foreign Christian residents may be expelled from the country without due process if their religious activities could be considered a threat to public order. Under Article 220 of the Moroccan Penal Code, “anyone who has impeded or prevented one or more persons from worship or from attending worship services of any religion may be punished by six-months’ to three-years’ imprisonment and a fine of 115 to 575 dirhams ($14 to $71).While Article 220 sounds favorable to religious freedom, it “applies the same penalty to ‘anyone who employs enticements to shake the faith of a Muslim or to convert him to another religion.’”
    • This significantly curtails any religious discussion and makes any attempt to present or discuss religious material in a Muslim’s presence illegal. Moreover, the Moroccan government has frequently cited the proselytism ban for support in many cases involving the expulsion of foreign missionaries. There is a stark difference between openly discussing one’s faith with another (which is protected under international law) and coercing conversion by force (which is not protected).
    • Morocco has codified many principles of Shariah. Any citizen is subject to prosecution for expressing any opinion that is adverse to Islam. In addition, any media expression critical of Islam has been strictly prohibited and punished by imprisonment. To our knowledge, no such law exists for criticizing any other faith. Moreover, educational institutions are only permitted to teach Sunni Maliki Islam; international schools must also teach Sunni Maliki Islam, but they may only opt out by choosing not to adhere to any religious creed. Such discriminatory mandates restrict religious freedom and violate articles 18 and 19 of the ICCPR.
    • In accordance with Shariah, Morocco also requires non-Muslims to formally convert to Islam to adopt children, and a non-Muslim man must convert to Islam before marrying a Muslim woman. This restriction prevents Christians from adopting Moroccan children; additionally, the government has arbitrarily severed Christian foster parents from the orphan children in their care.

    I mean Wow. Can you imagine this in France or Netherlands towards muslims? These are matters of inequality from another stratosphere. Where is the freedom and equality towards other thinking people on the Moroccan part? If Dutch Moroccan people feel attracted to this, then they are hypocrites. Why? They are grieved by sounds out of society that oppose their religion or halal meat as part of the sport menu (I seriously doubt this is actually the case in the Netherlands, Halal is everywhere these days (unfortunately for the animals who have to suffer from it)) and then feel somehow appealed to a country that violates this sense of equality a hundred fold when the roles are switched (muslim majority vs Christians/Shia/Jews). How hypocritical is that? These are not sounds out of Moroccan society or part of a discussions by the way, these are their laws! That makes it so much worse.

    Let's look at how Islamic countries have operated in the past or present. How have they treated Dhimmi's and Kuffars?

    1. The ruler would provide security for the Christian believers who would follow the rules of the pact.
    2. Prohibition to build new churches, places of worship, monasteries, monks or a new cell. Hence also forbidden to build new synagogues, although it is known that new synagogues were built after the occupation of the Islam, for example in Jerusalem and Ramle. The law that prohibits to build new synagogues was not new for the Jews, it was applied also during the Byzantines. It was new for the Christians.
    3. Prohibition to rebuild destroyed churches, by day or night, in their own neighborhoods or those situated in the quarters of the Muslims.
    4. Prohibition to hang a cross on the Churches.
    5. Muslims should be allowed to enter Churches (for shelter) in any time, both in day and night.
    6. Prohibition to call the prayer by a bell or a some kind of a Gong (Nakos).
    7. Prohibition of Christians and Jews, to raise their voices at prayers time.
    8. Prohibition to teach non-Muslim children the Qur'an.
    9. Christians were forbidden to show their religion in public, prohibition to be shown with Christian books or symbols in public, on the roads or in the markets of the Muslims.
    10. Palm Sunday and Easter parades were banned.
    11. Funerals should be conducted in quiet.
    12. Prohibition to bury non-Muslim dead near Muslims.
    13. Prohibition to raise a pig next to a Muslims neighbor.
    14. Christian were forbid to sale Muslims alcoholic beverage.
    15. Christians were forbid to provide cover or shelter for spies.
    16. Prohibition to tell a lie about Muslims.
    17. Obligation to show deference toward Muslims. If they wish to sit, Non-Muslim sould be rise from his seats and let the Muslim sit.
    18. Prohibition to preach Muslim to conversion out of Islam.
    19. Prohibition to prevent the conversion to Islam of some one who wants to convert.
    20. The appearance of the non-Muslims have to be different from those of the Muslims: Prohibition to wear Qalansuwa (kind of dome that was used to wear by Bedouin), Bedouin turban (Amamh), Muslims shoes, and Sash to their waists. As to their heads, it was forbidden to Comb the hair sidewise as the Muslim custom, and they were forced to cut the hair in the front of the head. Also non-Muslim shall not imitate the Arab-Muslim way of speech nor shall adopt the kunyas (Arabic byname, such as "abu Khattib").
    21. Obligation to identify non-Muslims as such by clipping the heads forelocks and by always dress in the same manner, wherever they go, with binding the zunar (a kind of belt) around the waists. Christians to wear blue belts or turbans, Jews to wear yellow belts or turbans, Zoroastrians to wear black belts or turbans, and Samaritans to wear red belts or turbans.
    22. Prohibition to ride animals as the Muslim custom, and prohibition to ride with a saddle.
    23. Prohibition to adoption a Muslim title of honor.
    24. Prohibition to engrave Arabic inscriptions on signet seals.
    25. Prohibiting of any possession of weapons.
    26. Prohibition of teaching children the Koran.
    27. In Muslim's trade with a man of another religion - the profit must be to the Muslim.
    28. Non-Muslims must host a Muslim passerby for at leat 3 days and feed him.
    29. Non-Muslims Prohibited from buying a Muslim prisoner.
    30. Prohibition to take slaves who have been allotted to Muslims.
    31. Prohibition for non-Muslims to Lead, govern or employ Muslims.
    32. If Non-Muslims beats Muslim - his Dhimmi is been removed.
    33. The worship places of non-Muslims must be lower than the lowest mosque in toun.
    34. The houses of non-Muslims must not be taller elevation than the houses of Muslims.
    35. Prohibition to bild houses of the non-Muslims must be low in a way that each time that they would enter or exit their houses they would have to bend, in a way that it would remined them their low status in the world.
    Notice this disclosure:

    Some of the pact of Umar were applied from time to time, even in the 1900s and today partly by Islamic leaderships, like in Iran, Iraq, Saudi-Arabia, Yemen, Syria.

    Let's look at the religion.

    The Quran is constantly raging towards unbelievers. Muslims are considered better than Kuffars. If you invest your mental energy into buying this, then that sets a person up to start to treat non believers different. In a recent article from Trouw magazine I read that now for the first time in Dutch history there are more people that do not believe in something specific (atheists, agnostic or agnostic theists) in the Netherlands than that do believe in a speciaf (Abrahamic) God. Those non believers do not read stuff that makes them look down on other people per se. The brainwash happens on the part of people reading the Quran that separates people into classes like Muslim, Dhimmi and Kuffar , or contains verses that could cultivate gender inequality. There is also not a very favourable attitude towards religions that worship more Gods (polytheism), which is also not helping.

    Could you acknowledge that this is a problem in a society where people try to live according universal principles like equality and freedom? If that is not the case then why is basically no Muslim majority country free at this day and age:


    If a country has a muslim majority, then you can almost bet your house on it that it does not have a green color code and the ones that do (1 or 2 small country's), circle around the bare minimum that is necessary to get it, however nothing even close to the Free West. We actually see far more important reverse trends. Turkey and Indonesia are powerful muslim majority nations and Erdogan is pushing his islamic agenda through people's throat. This was traditionally a secular country, but now is transformed into a theocracy = intolerance and suppression. Indonesia, and many people do not know this (and act like it is such a chill version of Islam), has implemented quite intolerant religious laws in 2013 so that religions out a select few get it much tougher. Intolerance and suppression there as well.

    For me it is like, Islam and Freedom can not coexist. Freedom = public rights and political rights. Freedom means that minority's can act and do as the majority's can act and do. Is about how free every individual is to make up his or her own mind. Well in almost all muslim majority countries this is not the case. Do muslims actually care for other people than their own? That brings us to the next question.

    Why do they care so much for Palestine? Because they care for human rights violations, or because it happens to muslims? Where is their outrage for what happens in Tibet? Why is there no outrage for them? Becasue they are not Muslim? Does that change things for them all of the sudden? Why? Does that make them lesser important? That is discrimination. The unequal distribution of mental energy towards the Palestine conflict (and yes, human rights violations happen there) is pure discrimination. It's care for your own group only. It is not rooted in a sense of universal rights. As I said, where is the outrage for Tibet?

    To end this post, I finish up with the first question I posed. Does critique on Islam happen in isolation, or are there claims and actions that preceded it? I would say that it starts with the claims in the holy scripture and the way Mohammed acted in his life. Mohammed is seen as a big figure in Islam and a man to follow as an example. That is the starting point of the discussion. Now I will not go into a discussion where we really go into verses or how Mohammed treated some jewish groups or dealt with Ashraf the Jew who ridiculed him (interesting story concerning freedom of speech), but in the Netherlands there is a climate of Freedom that revolves around this idea:

    Before islam came to Europe, this continent has been able to apeace and get Christianity at a normal level. A level where they don't want to dominate others (by force) but let everybody free. Islam has not gone through a reformation or enlightenment. It has not mellowed down, a contraire, the Saudi's are exporting Islamo fascism with their Wahabi madness. Madness that can lead to things like this:


    These footballers or this population in general must understand that whatever grievances of exclusion they experience, that it is not a feeling that only they can experience. It is what people in general can experience (and they can also inflict on others) and it is the job of society to iron these mistakes out in the laws if there is reason for. However in public debate harsh things can be said, since it is the open market of ideas. This is the thing though. There is no problem as long as all people in the open market of ideas operate under the notion that they want to maintain freedom for the others as well. The idea of Voltaire. I disagree completely with you, but I will give my life to enable you to say it.

    But what if another party in this dynamic all of the sudden wants to get rid of this free market of ideas and does not want to die for for another person to say what he wants. What if that party actually wants to prosecute persons who say things they don't like? What if they want to prosecute people for who they are (think of gay and lesbian people). What if they want to go as far as kill a person that no longer believes in the ideas of that group:


    Do we have to be tolerant to the intolerant? Can we maintain this stance of equality for all people, if within this free market of ideas a group comes up that grows rapidly and actually does not like any critique? That would like to instill blasphemy laws as fast as possible as they feel they are above criticism and want to have special treatment? After that it only takes some time before we see laws that would give muslim even more privileged positions over others (like the ones in Morocco), so that they can bully other minority's again into submission, conformity or make them leave the country and run the score up to above 90% muslim majorities in a country. Why have so many muslim majority countries such high density numbers of muslims? Because they are so tolerant or, because they actually made life not too pleasant for others in general? How are the Copts doing in Egypt these days? Not even talking about the even crazier country's like Saudi Arabia (which is funny, since people would sense great outrage and injustice if anything that is implemented there would happen in Rome, see the discrepancy?).

    I don't think that an El Ghazi does consider all these factors, but what I do expect from him is that when he says that his pride is with Morocco and that when he is triggered to say that as a result of feeling a degree of inequality in the Netherlands or a feeling of not complete acceptance (which again, is not an exclusive right of immigrants), that he applies the same parameters on Morocco and show some intellectual honesty and empathy to realize how the minority's in his beloved Morocco live. Not just being under critique by sounds in society ( which can take easily other forms there as last year the leader of the Moroccan Jewish community was completely beaten up), but even by Moroccan laws. Not considering that is hypocracy if I have ever seen it.

    So if politics and sport go hand in hand and he does not care for universal priniples, then he is even a bigger twat than I thought. Not only does he not really care for the chances and care Dutch society provided to him and his family, he also interprets and deforms equality as some kind of special status for hís group, not as a universal principle, which makes him a far worse person on the scale of discrimination. This makes me want him even less in the NT. If he loves his Morrocco, he loves the discrimination that Morocco applies to minority's and apparently was all about wanting special treatment for his own muslim group, which is fascist in my eyes.


    Cheers


    Laurent75 (open)
    We all know that Morocco isn't a country of human rights. But compared to the majority of other muslim countries, it's pretty free and people are quite open minded there. I m myself half moroccan and I can tell you that moroccans in general aren t very religious people and I believe that the majority of them dont even know about the laws you mentionned or disagree with them. I mean, you mentionned jews in Morocco, but they are living there for centuries without having any major problem like they had in europe 70 years ago. I know some jews who told me that they feel more safe in Morocco or Tunisia rather than in europe. They are often rich families there and they are protected. In nothern africa everything is about money and power, the religious texts are just decorations. I don't know if you've ever been to Morocco but as a tourist westerner, if you argue or have any problem with a local there, the police will always give you right, no matter if you are a kuffar and him a muslim and no matter what the law says. They always give right to the one who is the richest, that s how it works. They even close their eyes when old westerners come to Morocco every year in order to satisfy their pedophile desires with local children.

    You would have much more problems in Holland if you had to deal with the extremist pakistanis in the UK or the somalis in Sweden. People from north africa in general aaren t very religious, algerians are a bit more than moroccans and tunisians though.

    Now, you have to know that most of those who came to europe wanted to escape from their religion and poverty, and were looking for freedom and work. The debates about halal meat, the burka, the djihad etc. didnt exist in europe during the 70's, 80's. These things started to appear at the end of the 90's. You can meet many people who will tell you that the first generations of muslims were drinking alcohol, eating normal meat etc.
    The return to their religion and culture is something that has to be put in perspective with the bad integration of those communauties in the western societies. As I told you, I'm half moroccan (and my other half isn't french neither), and my parents decided to give me a french and christian name, but I clearly have an arabic/middle east appareance. I can't count the number of times in my life where french people were laughing at me when they heard that my name was Laurent, making jokes and saying that it should be Mohamed. And it's basically the same when I have to take the plane or something, the police always spend long minutes at checking my passport and asking me questions, last time I was in Poland and the police lady working at the airport did even ask me "Are you really french ?" while having my french passport between her hands...What kind of question is this ?
    The western politicians are talking about the bad integration of arabs for decades, but I'm not sure they really want it. I mean I'm born here, my parents gave me a french name but as long as I have an arab appareance, many french people will make me understand that I shouldnt feel french. I don't feel a victim though, I can work and have plenty of rights here, and I do feel french despite of what others can think.
    But I can understand why many young muslims in europe are going back to the radical islam. When you are born in a country but can't feel part of it, you look for an identity and you can find it in the religion of your ancestors.

    That s where Wilders is completly wrong, he wants to make people to believe that muslims came in europe with the clear idea to keep their culture and religion, and to spread it. I have many cousins in Morocco and none of them wanna come to europe to spread islam, basically they just want to have a good salary, a non religious girlfriend who would accept to give blowjobs, and parties with alcohol. All the contrary of what islam teachs. It s when they will be refused to enter night clubs and hold the streets that they will start to talk about islam and wear long beards.
    I've been to the Netherlands many times and I see the young moroccans guys there wearing football tracksuits and talking in arabic, and a big majority of moroccan and turkish girls wearing the hijab. I can assure you that I see more moroccan girls and boys dressing in a western way in Casablanca than in Amsterdam noord. I don't know what kind of integration you offered to those people, but they seem to live in the middle ages. If you wear a football tracksuit in your daily life in France, you will be called clown and the ladies will obviously stay away from you. I believe the moroccans from Holland are at another level of backwardness. Isn't the dutch governement partly responsible for that ?




    Brilliant Dutch (open)

    No!!! Everyone is responsible for their own actions, whether your white, black, brown or purple.
    The excuse of "I turned into a radical terrorist because society let me down" doesnt wash with me. It might wash with bleeding heart Liberals though.

    AFA Wilders is concerned, I agree with some of what he says, but I also strongly disagree with a lot of the other stuff he says. Main thing I do agree with him on is radical Islam needs to wiped from the face of the earth. However, we cant blame all muslims for the small minority radicals who ruin if for the rest of them.

    I also agree with Wilders that we need at least a 10 year hold on muslim immigration into Europe. Europe doesnt owe the muslim world anything, and we first need to see how well integration goes with the muslim population who are here now.

    I'm sorry if this ruffles a few feathers, but I do NOT wanna see Europe go from 5% muslims all the way to a 20% or 25% muslim population, because that will spell disaster. Instead of maybe one Charlie Hebdo incident per year, we will probably then have half a dozen or more each year.

    No thanks



    Orange14 (open)
    Europe has been a religious battleground for much of its history since the battle of Tours in 732 stopped the Moorish advance. With the advent of the first Crusade called by Pope Urban in 1095 Jewish communities in Europe were at risk all the way through WWII. Look at what the Thirty Years War did to central Europe in the early 17th century (well worth reading CV Wedgewood's book that chronicles the utter devastation that took place). 15th century Spain took the ultimate religious step to rid the country of all disbelievers through the Inquisition (I can trace some distant relatives who moved to Amsterdam during this period). Of course there is also the Protestant/Catholic battles in Britain that culminated in the establishment of the Irish republic in 1922 (but of course things didn't end there as Northern Ireland was preserved as a Protestant state).

    Point is that though there are current issues in many European countries with the immigration of Muslims there is nothing unique to what is happening today as opposed to decades or centuries ago.
     
  3. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Brilliant Dutch (open)
    Unfortunately, when you have mass immigration from a foreign country into another foreign country, integration doesnt always go smoothly. Add points if those immigrants look a lot different and bring a toxic religion with them. I think integration is generally much easier for Eastern Europeans because they look more like us and dont bring Islam into the mix.

    Having said all this I really hope and long for a day when Moroccans, Turkish...etc can all live peacefully side by side in Europe, and I hope they ditch this backwards religion they have in the process. I tend to be a positive person, so I do believe that day will come. It might take another 50 to 100 years though. Maybe sooner, who knows.

    And thats all I'm gonna say, because we're getting way off-topic now. Lets get back to Euro qualifying.
    If we dont beat Turkey with our injury-filled lineup, we're in big shit :eek:



    Laurent75 (open)


    First you can't deny that your environment plays a big role in what you are and how you act. You probably met moroccans who dress normally, work, don't even talk about islam and don't listen to agressive rap but to rock&roll instead. There are many moroccans like that, in both Europe and Morocco. And in general those moroccans will most likely be found in rich areas of Morocco, and in the center of european cities, not in the suburbs.
    When you build big blocks in the suburbs of a rich city and put 80 % of poor people there, sharing the same cultural background, you obviously can't expect a high level of education. It will necessarly lead to criminality, inculture etc. It's not even about Islam, in Holland you have also have a criminality problem with the christian antillan people, you talked about western european integration but here the serbians, romanians, georgians etc. who come are also involved in criminal activities. And I'm not talking about gypsies.

    About the second part of your message, I appreciate your honesty. I don't know how Wilders expresses his ideas but here Marine Le Pen keeps saying that race and religion aren't any problem for her and that she will only fight the extremist Islam and the illegal immigration. Fine. Now when someone asks her if she can imagine a France with a majority of arabs and "moderated" muslims people having a french passport, she always find a way to get around the question and escape.
    So basically the problem is that muslims have been in France for 50 years now, making children who made children etc. and according to the statistics, muslims make more children than european people. So how do you wanna deal with this fact ? Even with holding the immigration as you suggested, chances are quite big that muslims will be more numerous than european people in 30 or 40 years.
    What can you suggest against that ?
     
  4. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Seriously, the point of this thread is??????????????????????????? We all know where everyone stands on this. For myself, I could care less who is in the NT as long as they play interesting football. Now, I'm pretty far removed from being a Dutch citizen (about 250 years if the genealogy is correct about the family divergence) so perhaps I should not weigh in on this topic any longer. I'll be a supporter and leave the heavy lifting about who has the right to play for the team up to the manager and the Dutch FA (and maybe even the courts if the Kalou gambit is attempted by a future manager). You don't have to put a spoiler on this one as it is my last post on the topic. I will also try NOT to read any of the further musings about citizenship and football.
     
  5. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I think it is important to note that Laurent has said that when Dutch Moroccans don't feel as part from Dutch society, that they will keep looking for an identity and possibly find it in rather extreme variants of Islam. In Amsterdam they clothe themselves less Western than in Casablanca.

    What I tried to say in my contribution is that if this feeling of not being accepted stems from unfair treatment, that it is rather rich considering the plain discriminating laws that exist in basically all muslim majority countries. Just a quick recap. We can take it from here.
     
  6. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I think the point is uncovering multiple layers. What are you afraid of? This will not get an uncivilized turn as there is no Neeskens to wind us up :D

    The USA has been a nation of immigrants. Maybe you find it a non issue as a result of that. Europe is different and we struggle with this issue. Discussion can clear things up. Let everybody follow their own development path. So far there have already been shared some pearls of wisdom. This thread has gone in a totally different direction than you read into it. It has now arrived at places like motivations for immigrants to come, religion, politics, and how this whole dynamic leads to players wanting to represent the Netherlands or not. It's a complex issue and interesting to discuss.

    Cheers
     
  7. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I'll gladly weigh in on social/political things unrelated to the Dutch NT.:p

    Aside from the fact that we were a partial nation of slave owners for the first 90 years, the US has probably been the most successful multi-ethnic/cultural nation the world has seen. First generation immigrants were discriminatedd against but most rose to have successful careers. I've been surprised at how the various groups have integrated via marriage and other living arrangements. 40 years ago one would not have seen much inter-racial marriage and now it's quite commonplace. Gay marriage is now accepted in many of the states. I find that we are embracing the best that all the cultures have to offer. We still have some Islamaphobia because of 9/11 but I've had Muslim neighbors and have always enjoyed talking with them and sharing experiences (of course I live in the Washington DC area and we have lots of diplomats as well as immigrants.

    Without a doubt! Numerous examples over the centuries and even recently.

     
  8. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    Europe has never faced such a situation in its past. They chased muslim invasions after being occuped but now the context is different as muslims are part of the societies.

    I really wonder how things will be in 30 or 40 years, when europeans will realize that immigrants are more numerous than them, will they accept it ? I have a friend who is 100% french and who told me that he wouldn't mind living in a France where most of people are dark skinned as long as no religious law is applied.
    We are in a context where people are also cleverer and less bellicose than before, every european has arabs and blacks friends in his entourage. So I don't believe the politicians who talk about a coming civil war, I can't imagine it at least, with all the interracial couples etc. how can people identify their ennemies ?

    I read frequently the french patriotic website and the members posting there, some of them have nothing against the race but don't like the muslims, some say that the religion is only cultural and that the biggest problem is that white people will disappear, some say that both are a problem...It's not clear at all even for them. Marine Le Pen is smart enough to play with the different words and concepts (race, religion, moderated, extremist etc.) but everyone knows that she wouldn't accept the majority of french people to be arabs/blacks even if they are moderated muslims, or even christians. I'm sure that the race is the main factor for her and it's probably the same for Wilders over there.

    What do you think about it DRB ? What is your position ?
     
  9. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Oh dear, this thread is gonna open so many emotions....LOL
     
  10. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Or will bring clarity and a clear direction for the future to walk to as we have identified the different layers this problem contains. I see nothing but civility here and I intend to keep it that way.
     
  11. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Yeah, you probably shouldnt.
    Not trying to be cruel, but dammit stay the f__ck out of Oranje's business, okay!!!!

    Nothing but love though, okay ;-)

    Cheers
     
  12. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    @Brilliant Dutch - I will continue to support the Oranje regardless of who is in the team!!
     
    Brilliant Dutch repped this.
  13. CDPontaDelgada

    CDPontaDelgada Member+

    CD Santa Clara
    Aug 15, 2012
    Ponta Delgada PT
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
  14. CDPontaDelgada

    CDPontaDelgada Member+

    CD Santa Clara
    Aug 15, 2012
    Ponta Delgada PT
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Immigration happens everywhere. The Dutch case is complicated as most migrants are from Islamic nations which is difficult in Netherlands who tend to be a very progressive and liberal people it range to religious Christians

    I hail from the azores were many of the migrants to these uninhabited islands were Jewish refugees, Dutch Flemish peasants, Arab slaves and etc
     
    Rebaño_Sagrado repped this.
  15. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    #15 DRB300, Mar 14, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
    The Jewish community has been much bigger in Morocco in the past than it is now. We see a stark decline over the past decades. Why do they all leave then? Don't you think that an unequal treatment between religions has anything to do with that? If you say that Arabics do not feel totally accepted in Europe or Netherlands, don't you think this same feeling can arise in people in Arab nations? If their religion is seen and treated as second rate? Come on.

    It is vital that this step is taken as that unlocks the path to integration in Europe. From this realisation must come the idea that in Europe there is something in place that is actually quite beautiful and worth to build on. That is why I have to go back to how things are organized in Morocco. I know that Morocco is a respect culture, but human rights is respect. It is all about respect for human life. The intrinsic value of it.

    I can understand why your Jewish friends would say such a thing by the way. Look at that clip from the Jew doing a 10 hour walk through Paris on youtube. The people who offend and spit at him are all muslims or Arab looking people. Like, really all of them. I have just come back from a vacation in Berlin and I read that Jews like to go there and even start to live in Berlin. So it is not the whole of Europe. They also did long walks with camera's in Berlin and there was not 1 incident. Paris there was though. Quite some.

    I understand that money is a big factor in Morocco, but that is not good either. In a civil society the rich should get their punishment as much as the poor man in the street if he committed a crime. Justicia is blindfolded for a reason. In the Netherlands we try to live up to this as much is possible. Of course it is an uphill battle, but there are certainly checks and balances in place to at least get closer to this ideal. You will never reach perfection, but the ambition must be there.

    When I hear for example Dutch Moroccans talk, then what I discover is their lack of love for true human rights. I do not mean by that using leftist buzz words to gain an advantage in the media battle against Israel as it attacks their muslim brothers, but being truly in love with universal principles.

    This is an example of what I mean how in this case a muslim is wearing the mask and using the reasonable language of the left to actually be find out as a muslim extremist to promote his own agenda again:



    Moroccans talk a lot about respect, but do they mean for them and their group or respect as a fellow human being? Can this lack of tuning with universality also be one of the roots of the problem? There is group thinking culturally and then group thinking from religion. 2 strong forces. Can the strong "Us" mentality that flows from it also be a factor for lack of integration?

    One last thing about this paragraph. The Jew extermination was not done by Europe, but by the Germans. They attacked us, invaded our country and also killed a lot of Dutch people with their bombings and what not. From that black episode, we have concluded in Europe we needed to integrate and align self interest to let such a thing never happen again. Talking about stepping over your own shadow, starting a project with your murderers. However after that war (where far more non Jews were killed by the way, than Jews) we have only known peace within the EU. There is a beauty in the project and there are universal principles that go hand in hand with it.

    Certainly possible, but the whole aim of my post was see if I can get across that if a lack of feeling with a country stems from unequal treatment, that it is rather a rich claim held against the background of a country of heritage and their treatment of minority's. I mean really. I have showed state laws and Islamic laws that simply forbid any full expression of a minority and is just pure suppression. Are there shows on Moroccan TV where Jews are show host and are allowed to try to convert muslims to become Jew? Also look at the 2014 Freedom House rapport that simply contests this idea that Jews and other minorities are fine in Morocco. It talks about increased intolerance and I know that the Jewish leader was victim of a hate crime last year. There is really some owning up to be done in that department, or not.

    Not owning up would be a good sign. Why not fall in love with Western ideas of universal human rights and the way we tried to set up a system of equality for all groups and people that choose to live here? Is it perfect? No. Are there maybe bad treatments that happen from daily interaction in society? You bet, as happens vica versa. However pretty fair laws are upheld as there is a basic idea of equality that also leads to minority's being able to express themselves and do what they want. This is just not the case in many, many Muslim country's.

    Agree. It was economically motivated and then the generations after that suddenly became more conservative and religious, though I would not call Dutch Moroccans so religious (you already mentioned this as well). I have seen plenty muslims condemn this group as giving Islam a bad name funny enough. So they get it from two sides. The right wing in the country for reasons of criminality and the muslims who take their religion really serious and want it to be associated with good behaviour. One other layer would be to make a distinction between the boys and girls. Girls do much better than the boys, though I have not updated this insight in quite a while. Wonder how it is now.

    But is this said in a bad manner or is it just a sincere amazement that actually opens the door for a nice conversation? I also come from a family that has traveled a lot and lived for big parts abroad. My whole family lives in Italy now and my little niece speaks Italian and has a French name as well ;). She looks typical Dutch though. White hair, blue eyes, tall for her age, white skin. When the Italians hear her saying Mama Mia all of the suddon in public transport, the whole bus is laughing and looking at each other how it is possible. I don't take that as offensive or as a sign that she will never be "accepted" in Italy where she will become part of society as they plan to stay there. It makes her rather unique and interesting. You too have an interesting story to tell, since your parents had maybe advanced ideas about integration, have a mixed background and I am sure there is something to it that people would love to hear about it. Why not looking at it from this perspective?

    Sure, however everybody has their airport story's. Try flying from Amsterdam to Miami as a Dutch person. You will be treated as a communist during the heights of the cold war, since many drugs transport happened that way. TSA knows this and act like a bunch of Nazi's. I understand your point, but I just wonder if this should be enough to not want to make a country your own? Like Aboutaleb in Rotterdam is doing as mayor. He was not born in the Netherlands. Only came here when he was 15 and was dirt poor. Who knows if he will be the next leader of the PvdA and who knows how big he can make his party again and what is possible from that. Just saying that when you align yourself with the concerns of a country and try to become a solution in a country, that these incidents will be far more easily be brushed off. Or not be taken in such a negative way in the first place. Why would it not tell us something about this Polish lady and her outdated ideas about the French? Her lack of knowledge? France that has so many people from different cultures these days?

    I think a country like France is screaming for an Arab that puts country's and total community interest over own and own group interest. I think a country like France will throw themselves at your feet when you start to talk the language of universality. Being principle centered (orientated towards Freedom) rather than group centered. I see it with Aboutaleb. Sure he also has quality, but he talks the talk of a hardliner that will dish it out to his own group as well when they step over the line. What I mean by that can also be shown in a conversation like this:

    http://www.npo.nl/mo-actueel/31-01-2015/VPWON_1236780

    You posted a Dutch video, so maybe you speak it a little bit, but here I can point to a good example. The guy that brings people together is this Dutch Moroccan sitting at the far right for the viewer. Badr is his name. I don't know this man, but he says that he rather lives in a country where freedom is upheld for everybody, than in a country where we are going to give certain views special rights. He gets it. The others look troubled when he articulates his opinion. The guy at the far left for the viewers is for me the face of the enemy of the west and why anti Islam is rising in Europe. He drops the bombs like Islamophobia and what not, just to shield his own religion and views from inspection, criticism and ridiculizing. He is the enemy of satire and satire is essential in society as power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolute. Islam as a religion of 1.7 billion people is a very powerful group and needs to be grounded into equality and freedom or they will start to act like all powerful groups. They will act creepy and we also see that in countless Muslim majority countries. Badr shows me he gets that and actually loves the Netherlands for the freedom he has to express his faith in whatever way he wants, but also understands that this is a 2 way street. His freedom means also upholding the freedom of people from different faiths or people of no faith as well. This is music to my ears.

    But here we also see that from the needs of a person the level of feeling offended flows. If nightlife involvelemt is not an issue and if people are more interested in the intellectual world, art world, gaming world, then being denied by a dumb bouncer has less of an impact than if that is a big thing. Many pubs and bars have no bouncers, so there it is not even a thing.

    Also, there is a reason they are disliked in disco's. I am sorry to say, but a Dutch Moroccan group in a theatre or disco can really act like they own the place and determine the atmosphere. The fear is the tendency that they start to act like a pack of wolves. The narrative can't be painted like they are only the victim. If you look at the Taxi industry in Amsterdam in front of central station, then there is a lot of concern around how Dutch Moroccan drivers denigrate people who want to use their services. It's not seen as a pleasant poster for the city and country, since a lot of tourists get that as a first impression.

    However I understand that Dutch Moroccans who are willing to blend in and act civilized are as big victims in this story as they will get a bad stigma. I do think in general that more critique from the own group should be heard. The guys from your video are totally out of reach for people they consider outside their community. Hell, I think outsiders will get in a fight when you approach them.

    I just think that it would be very good for the Dutch Moroccan community if we will see more positive examples in society with a higher profile, like Aboutaleb. Not this centering around own group, nightlive and stuff, but guys and girls that have centered themselves around the concerns of a nation and act more from universal principles than looking at the interest from the group. That comes across as so much more mature and engaged into a society. The random French dude at the corner of the street also has to pay his rent or mortgage. Also wants the best for his children. Stepping over this focus for the self or own group and becoming a solution for all is what true integration is and when individuals align themselves as such then we suddenly will stop talking about integration as it is a fact.

    Well they came to the Netherlands on 5 year contracts. The idea was to make a lot of money here and go back to the family, but the reverse happened. So there was not this decisive moment where it was clear what it would be, which would create a burst of energy to set things up to really become Dutch. They stayed though and started to live in the Netherlands. Many women that came over were not able to talk Dutch, even after 20 or 30 years of being here. There was no push pull forces to make that realise. It was not demanded by goverment when they got clearence to stay in the country and the traditional setup of man working, women doing the housekeeping, did not force them to learn another language. The men maybe neither so much as it was not an intellectual occupancy that they carried out, but rather hard work with the hands. One also has to be realistic what to expect within this context . However, a second and third generation was expected more from. To join the rest of society, but it looks like they move around within the own group still. All generalisations this, keep that in mind.

    The problem from a society point of view is the so called political correctness. Demanding stuff from immigrants lead to labels as being racist. Hirsi Ali in her book, who went through the asylum process in the Netherlands also told about this. If Somalia's clearly crossed the line, like stealing something, all they had to do was to call people racist and they got away with it. Went as far as female mutilation being considered people's culture and so not to be touched on. This has created so many problems. Clear rules and certain demands, rather than throwing benefits at people, gave them a feeling of entitlement and actually created people that were not happy about the society they lived in.

    I know of a case where an Italian student ended up in the Blijlmer for a room to study and did not know what she saw. There were whole lists of tactics of how to exploit the Dutch benefit system and were passed on from one to the other. Netherlands had a whole range of possibilities. She was an artist and so there were special laws to get money for that study and profession. Now with the economic implosion of the banking system Netherlands has become more sober, but there was a long time where the welfare state did not cultivate a culture of progress and participation, but rather staying within your own circle, retreating, claiming, not learning the language.

    I have to be careful to not project this on all groups. The Dutch Moroccans were hard workers as they came here for economic reasons. However a lot of integration with multiple groups did not go as we wanted as a result of this benefit system that took the push factor away to integrate.

    That being said, there is an own responsibility as well. Third generation immigrants that are born here, go to the same schools and have as many chances as others. Dutch Moroccans lead the numbers in suspected felony stats and are the leading figures in the underworld of criminality. There are now also movies about that. This is a serious problem. It raises questions about how they are brought up and what they are watching on TV/Internet. Mosques should also maybe play a bigger role to tackle this problem.

    Who is to blame in all this? Both, but as more generations pass, it is on the people itself as they have had now enough time to adjust and integrate IMO.


    Cheers
     
  16. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I think Islamophobia is an invented word for the time being of Islam not being powerful enough in a country to impose it's blasphemy laws on others. It is a word to shield itself from criticism, inspection and ridicule. Especially ridicule, since we see followers walking away from a religion if it is treated as the fairy tale it is. That is why they have these creepy rules surrounding Islam, like apostasy rules:

    * Link

    That is why you see blasphemy laws in all muslim majority countries. To give their set of ides special status as they deem themselves more special than the rest apparently. A set of people placing themselves above others is something we have seen more here in Europe and it lead to complete destruction and total chaos. It lead to the most dehumanizing scenes you can imagine. Thanks, but no thanks. This is my philosophy on the matter:

    [​IMG]


    Bigot and Islamophobia are for me words used by dangerous people. It is a clear intent to remove a set of ideas from the marketplace of ideas and put them above criticism.

    Besides, fear for Islam is totally justified. Not from a terror perspective, since only 2 or 3 % of all terror lands on the shoulders of the Western World. The biggest victims of terror are fellow Muslims in other parts of the world, but those are people too. So it is important to see how muslim societies have shaped themselves and how they have designed live. Look at the results:


    Look at that. There are around 50 Islam majority countries in the world and where is the green color code for them? I don't see any. Maybe 1 or 2 small countries that circle around the bare minimum, but nothing close the Free West. Do you want to live in a country that does not know freedom? Many people think that freedom is worth dying for and many wars have been fought to get it back. Now look at all those Islam nations getting a yellow color code or worse. Look at Saudi Arabia. Look at how Erdogan in Turkey is building towards a theocracy while Turkey was on it's way to a secular society that in time could even join the EU. Indonesia is always sold as such a relaxed Islam country, but has implemented new religious laws in 2013, slipping more and becoming less free.

    If you were in your lab and 50 tubes showed no real green if we try to mix Islam with Freedom, would that fill you with at least some skepticism as to whether they can be combined? I value my freedom and you bet I am pretty damn phobic towards such a religion. No. The ball is the corner of such a religion to show me that it is possible and possible up to levels of the west. Until that day, I am remain an opponent of it.
     
  17. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Hey you guys, can we all please stop this??!!!!

    We're all gonna have to learn to get along.
    I know that might not be easy, but thats the way its gonna have to be!!

    So can we now please get back to Oranje Euro qualifying!
    Which at this point I'm not quite sure we're gonna make it.....LOL :oops:
     
  18. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands

    What are you talking about? Please tell me you are drunk. Anyway, if you want to talk about qualification then you have to be in another thread anyway, so just that you know. Cheers
     
  19. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    That s an interesting debate and we are managing to keep it polite. Maybe not the right place to do it but that s a more important subject than football, isn't it ?

    Don't worry we'll talk about the dutch back passing and Depay being invisible after the game.
     
  20. Laurent75

    Laurent75 Member

    Aug 2, 2014
    #20 Laurent75, Mar 15, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2015
    DRB don't bother posting things about the lack of freedom in Islam, I already know this stuff, I've been raised with that religion and I'm myself an apostate now, so I already know what I would risk if living in a muslim country ^^

    Now, I believe the three monotheist religions show lack of freedom. The europeans started to abandon the Christianity once they lived with material comfort. That s basically the same with the Islam, the ones who practice the less (or not at all) are often the richest and most educated. That's why I don't really see any issue for the muslims living in the suburbs in europe, they are all sticked together with the same religion, how can they stop to believe in it ? It's not with debating and showing them proofs against their religion that they will stop, their mind is really manipulated, they need to change as person first. Being isolated and having time to think with your own brain is always good, that's why I blame the western governments for having put the majority of muslims together in blocks and letting them to hang out in group. It even leads to many conversions of non muslims people to the Islam. In the french "ghettos", you can even find jews and chinese youn g guys who converted to Islam because they had to hang out only with muslim people.

    Now about that video of the jew walking in Paris, I'd advise you to be careful. The video shows that he clearly went only to the worsts areas of Paris where he would find a majority of arabs (some of them being even illegal immigrants), that s already a kind of setting up, and honestly I live in a popular area with many muslims and many jews wearing the kippa, they don't really get insulted or whatever. Muslims are allowed to eat kasher meat, and there are kasher supermarkets here where you can find many muslims buying things etc. both communauties interract with each other. The venimosity of muslims is against Israel and its government, not against sephardi jews living in europe or nothern africa. Of course you can still find anecdots of agressions etc. but the general climate is ok.

    Also, as much as I don't believe in Islam and agree with you about its critic, I'd warn you to be very careful with medias and their way to treat muslims. I don't know what they show you in Holland, but for example, did they tell you how finished that Charlie hebdo story ? As a grown man with a good working brain, can you really believe that Coulibaly gave a phone interview to a TV channel while holding a bunch of hostages in a supermarket, an half hour before the final assault that lead to his death ? They did the same for Mohammed Merah, that is too big to believe in. They are really presenting it like a TV reality show, with the journalist speaking in a dramatic tone and the supposed vile jihadists telling all the stereotypes they know about Islam.
    And well, even if all this is true, I bet that they didn't tell you that one of the hostage that the Kouachi brothers held said that they were really nice to him, telling him not to worry because they don't kill random innocents but only people who insult Islam, they even told him to protect himself before the final assault where they died...

    In France we have many ways to be informed, but a friend in Slovakia told me that he didn't know about all this and only heard that 3 muslims killed french people. Basically the goal in treating the information is such a way is to make people to believe that muslims are psychopaths who hate europe etc. but those guys aren't psychopaths at all, Coulibaly gave a large explaination about the french army going to Mali and Syria and the french folk collaborating to that with paying taxes etc. not the most clever arguments, but at least it showed that he was acting for something that we can consider to be political.

    The two psycopaths are the "Dniepopetrovsk maniacs" who killed and tortured 21 innocent people in the space of few months and filmed with their mobile phone because it was procuring them pleasure. That happened few years ago but I swear we didn't even hear about it in the medias here.

    21 people killed by two ukrainians for pleasure = no information, no problems for ukrainians and white people
    14 people killed by three muslim for religious/political reasons = international publicity, a minute of silence at the Camp Nou, and a bunch of european people expressing their fear/hate against muslims and arabs.

    They even showed some japanese newspaper saying to japanese tourists to be careful to arabs when they go to France. That's probably why you don't see any japanese tourist in Morocco while the country is ranked amongst the 10 most touristic in the world. What did arabs do to japanese people in their history ? Did they throw an atomic bomb on them like the americans did ?

    Arabs and muslims have to deal with prejucides and negative sterotypes more than the others and I believe that's the result of the medias manipulation. And we all know who controlls the medias...
     
  21. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    ^I will probably address your post in greater detail later on but just to clear one thing up:

    I never express my criticism on Islam based on terror casualty's. Look at all my posts on this subject and you will see that it always builds around the argument of human rights. Political rights, civil liberties, the freedom to express yourself as you want. My argument revolves around freedom, not casualty's from terror. I think you actually find 0 remarks in all my (long) posts so far. Look back and try to find any negative reference towards this dimension of terror on my part.

    The effect of attacks on free press is the things that bothers me a lot. Terror works excellent and this nonsense about the pen being stronger than the machine gun is not true. Who is going to risk a live in danger for a cartoon now? They can tell you they will attack and wait 10 years. Then you need 10 years protection and that is every day having to take measures, living in fear. No simple cartoonist does this, who is a bit in his right mind (though I would admire him or her).

    That is what I hate. That they killed something very important that is fragile but oh so precious to preserve. It is also never going away and they have made society less with it. This is very different from some psycho's going on a killing spree. These are just sick persons, and you are right, the religious fundamentalists are not crazy in a sense. They just follow up what they believe and draw a line where their faith dictates them to draw it. And as this group will always exist, the line they draw is the line we now have to adapt to. We actually do already live under the Islamic blasphemy laws and that is something I do not take lightly. That is something you have to consider with kill calculations. It's not the numbers, it is that Islamic blasphemy laws suppress me and takes the public debate as hostage. It can not evolve properly now. We can not make a Life of Brian movie. We can not do what we did with Christianity and use ridicule to put it in it's place. They know that. If you ridicule stuff, then it loses it's power and it's attraction to people. Less followers, more people turning away. Actually, religion and certainly Islam is based around installing fear into it's followers. Fear for hell, fear for the community if they find out you are not muslim anymore, fear for mocking the prophet in any way and what not. Fear works and they know it. Before Mo started to use violence he had like only 150 followers? His religion started to rise when violence was on the menu. That is why having ridicule removed from the menu on TV , theatre and printed press is a true loss.

    However apart from that, I just ask myself in what muslim majority country I would want to live and be judged if such an event would take place and my answer is none. I am perfectly fine here in the Netherlands and do not want any of their stupid islam nazi rules implemented in my country. My freedom is precious to me.

    Psychos enjoy to see others suffer and I think I read that around 1% of our population is born this way. Of course they do not all start to kill, but they find their ways to hurt people/animals otherwise. Islam has political ambitions though and has ideas how society and even life should be designed. It holds claims that could have far implications for my experience of freedom and that is why it is so high profile I think as freedom is a central principle for western society's. To make you understand how deep Netherlands is connected with freedom, this might be a fun read:

    * America’s Neglected Debt to the Dutch

    Though I will not hold it against you if you pass on this one to read. It contains quite some pages. However it grows an appreciation of how early Netherlands was intertwined with this concept of freedom:

    Notice how far ahead of it's time Netherlands was. (open)
    As in the American case, the founding documents of the Dutch republic began as treaties of alliance among more or less independent states. In the Dutch case, however, the new documents were not grounded in enlightenment political theory, because it had not yet been written. The agreements were negotiated and signed nearly a century before Hobbes (1651) and Locke (1689) developed their theories of social contract. And, the new government divided policymaking authority between a representative assembly and an independent executive well before Montesquieu’s (1748) analysis of the merits of a separation of power. Rather, the new Dutch institutions and policies would affect the thoughts and publications of those unborn political theorists and also, partly through them, the American founding fathers two centuries later.


    Here again (open)
    During the second half of the sixteenth century, the Dutch rebelled against the Spanish crown and established a new republic. It was the first secession from a major European empire. The United States was the second, almost exactly two centuries later.


    The USA claims to be the land of the free, the French also like to talk about their revolutions, but we are the originals :D. We were damn early in kicking a king out when he was clearly acting like a tyrant. That was a huge thing since Kings ruled by Gods grace and everybody was afraid of God in the middle ages. After that, only 2 short periods of occupation by the French (Napoleon) and the Nazi's (Hitler), but they were gone soon enough and so we a huge tradition of freedom and tolerance.

    I tell this as you have to factor in what these islam terrorists do to us. They mess with our freedom and that runs through our veins. Again, you have to factor that in when talking about the media presence this subject has.

    Cheers
     
  22. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Ahright, so I mightve had a wee bit too much to drink last night, but goshdarnit, that submarine I had was nothing short of amazing

    [​IMG]
     
  23. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    One more thing to consider. Sports and Entertainment are excellent examples of ways to integrate society. If you look back at college basketball in the 1950s there were very few black players at the major universities. Best counter example was at University of San Francisco which won two straight championships in 1955 & 1956 because they had Bill Russell and KC Jones. Southern teams were all white until the mid-1960s and there was a big change after 1966 when Texas Western who had 5 black players defeated University of Kentucky who started 5 white players. Kentucky now has almost all black players and may win the championship this year. College football (American) was same.

    Look at popular entertainment. Prior to rock & roll taking over in the mid 1950s almost all entertainers were white. Rock & roll traced its roots to black blues singing in the south. All of the sudden there was a big break through an we saw lots of black popular singing groups in the 1960s.

    Each of these areas offered upward mobility for those who had talent. Same thing can be said about football. Maybe it takes some of the morroccan footballers to become more prominent spokesmen.
     
  24. Antario2

    Antario2 Member

    Jan 29, 2012
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    I think the situation of Mexican immigrants in the US reflect the problems of Maroccans in Dutch society closer than African American emancipation. Mexican American footballers also have to make a choice whether to play for their new country or the land of their parents.
     
  25. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Kind of agree with Antario2. The best way to equate the Dutch Turkish/Moroccans with a situation in the USA is to equate them with the Mexicans, though keep in mind that Mexico is Christian as well, while both Morocco and Turkey are Muslim countries.
     
    JJV1994 repped this.

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