Dutch footballer of the year press classification 1979-1994

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Rafael van der Vaart (1983, Heemskerk)

    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_van_der_Vaart




    It sounds nowadays very strange, but the young Rafael van der Vaart (from aged 17 to 21) was the only player to draw serious comparisons with Johan Cruijff.

    When he was young, with 2004-2005 as negative turning point, he was quick, nimble, had stamina, enthusiasm, could put a foot in, and was generally a skilled player. He had that youthful radiation and was the team captain at a very young age. He produced some good solo goals, some other inventive goals and was a generally productive attacking midfielder (arguably one of the more productive attacking midfielders of the decade). He led Ajax to the Champions League quarter finals in 2003, where they got eliminated in the very last second.

    One tangible demarcation line is here him losing the captaincy in 2004, though that was as much an effect as a cause. By the time his generation peaked in tournaments (2008 - 2014), he had mostly a peripheral role or was not there at all.

    Despite the legitimate feelings he physically and technically peaked too early, regressed and not developed further, he was still a good footballer in the Bundesliga and the Premier League. He was on the shortlist for PFA player of the year and his colleagues in the Bundesliga voted him as 2nd best and as 3rd best of the league (at least at those two moments) when he played.

    His spell at Real Madrid merits a special mention too. When Fiorentino Perez took over and he brought in his own people, he wanted Van der Vaart out. Van der Vaart didn't want to leave though, because his wife was suffering from cancer and he wanted stability. He was stripped of his squad number and forced to train with the 2nd team, but stayed at Madrid.
    Then the 'unthinkable' happened, he climbed his way back in the first team and finished the season as top assister of Real Madrid (across all competitions, and from open play too). For him, that was a personal victory. He said: "They had already made up their mind and the attention and care went to their new players. The new leadership was re-tooling the entire organization, with new people everywhere. To then fight back into the first team - with my private problems too - was one of the best feelings I had in football."

    @annoyedbyneedoflogin will probably confirm that his reputation isn't good nowadays.
     
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  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Though I could find back snippets (e.g. free kick on the crossbar against Milan) there isn't really something I am happy with.

    This then:





     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Will move to the next one in the list after this (unless @annoyedbyneedoflogin or @PDG1978 has something to add? if not then I don't mind but I'm learning of annoyedbyneedoflogin).

    Here a few more snippets, which gives imho a better picture than just the goals:





    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAgSG-hRtyg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA-hgfycSuw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGMatD0YTaE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI9w59e2Efw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPwpAl0hQpc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h8jPa9fxwE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC3DEI1dBrY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmUp8vvTPg4

    Most probably I have missed or overlooked something (still not too happy) but leave it at here.
     
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  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Willy van der Kuijlen (1946, Helmond)

    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willy_van_der_Kuijlen
    https://www.psv.nl/nieuwspagina/artikel/willy-is-altijd-gewoon-willy-gebleven.htm



    (the wikipedia page is pretty fine, but of course with the narrative falling to his side)

    The soft speaking and often modest 'mister PSV' is by many seen as the greatest and best player to have played for the club. Sure, there have been others. Players as Romario, Nilis, Willy van de Kerkhof, Cocu, Ronaldo, Van Nistelrooij, Gerets, Koeman and Gullit can be placed up there too, but Van der Kuijlen has a nice career arc for the club and had his abilities.

    His other nickname was 'Skiete Willy' ('shoot Willy'), and this brought him to 311 goals in 545 games in the league, with which he is the all-time topscorer (ahead of Geels and Cruijff). Furthermore, he had 29 goals in 58 European matches, 7 goals in 22 matches for the national team (7 in 17 starts) and by the 'Pelé method' one easily ends up at 890 goals (his biography goes to 948 goals but let's take something off from this total). He was topscorer of the Cup Winners Cup in 1975 (semi finalist, 8 goals) and his 1975 European bronze boot could be watched for a while in the museum (28 league goals, his best total of his career; 27 in 1974 and 1976; 26 goals in 1970; 24 in 1977)

    Though Van der Kuijlen played in and with different formations, like so many high scoring midfielders he needed specific circumstances and runs to thrive. The arrival of trainer Kees Rijvers to the club did wonders for his career and he had probably seven of his eight best seasons under him, and not just statistically (the other is 1969-70, 32 goals in 42 games). The club changed from a place 3 to 8 club (quite underperforming) to a consistent top three finisher. Van der Kuijlen struggled to show his overall best for the national team while he had about 20 times the chance, and unlike other players he was almost always released on time by his club.

    To focus on that, and his professional differences with both Johans and both Wims (unlike Van Beveren he had privately a good relationship with many of them), might ignore the effectiveness for his club. His best years coincided with three national championships, four cup finals (two wins), three semi finals in Europe (1971, 1975, 1976) to then subsequently finish that frustrating journey with the UEFA Cup win in 1978 (in which he, of course, scored). That made PSV for a few months the #1 club in ClubElo.

    Van der Kuijlen played nominally as a midfielder (certainly in his best years), but also played at select times as a forward on paper. He sadly left the club in acrimonious circumstances, with him getting on in the years and finding it difficult to adapt to a new role in his last two-and-a-half years.

    Club:




    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr5wiVHO_TM

    National team:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-mQvOeGR9g
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IzdsIhC-eI
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Wesley Sneijder (1984, Utrecht)

    [​IMG]





    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesley_Sneijder

    The street kid from Utrecht was in his first few years seen as the less talented alternate of Van der Vaart, although he had with his genuine and threatening ambidexterity a skill that Van der Vaart had not. He developed a club career with some good peaks (2008, 2010), but an arguably better resume for the national side.

    His status as current record cap holder - those get a mandatory farewell game - has not come without discussion (unlike his two predecessors, but like Aron Winter before him), but realistically he belongs among the better national team performers his country had.

    In 2008 and 2010 he was among the better players of the tournament, and possibly the outstanding performer in his own position. In 2008 he had goals and assists against France and Italy, he had the equalizing assist in the quarter final against Russia. In 2010 he was decisively involved in 9 goals (not: "I pass the ball sideways and you shoot from 20 meters"), with two goals against Brazil and a goal and pre-assist against Uruguay in the knockout phase as stand-outs. In the final he provided two piercing through-balls to Robben.

    In 2012 he was certainly the best player of his crap performing team; his 10 chances against Denmark are an European Championship record. That in itself should be taken with a pinch of salt, but he delivered some balls that were difficult to send, but easy to control and process for the recipient. He also created a respectable 6 chances against Germany.

    Then a difficult time arrived for him. Van Gaal became the new national team coach and made Sneijder captain (explicitly because of his recent performances and efforts in the orange shirt). Sneijder lost it though after three games and his position entered tough waters. Subsequent improvement and better physical form for his club, with some good games like a winning performance against Real Madrid (open play goal plus assist) brought him back into the picture. Early 2014 Jose Mourinho said peculiarly but interestingly: "In his position, that of number 10, Wesley belongs to the three best footballers in the world" (a little later Sneijder met his former manager and he produced an assist, game ended 1-1).

    Sneijder played the 2014 World Cup as a hard working and grafting player, more so than he did in 2010. He was this time overshadowed by others, and muted down the extravaganza, but still produced two assists and the 88th minute equalizer against Mexico. "I am now a work horse", he said. Sneijder did not play the match for 3rd place (got injured in the semis) but had the highest distance covered per game and per minute of his team (almost even in with and without team possession). This was a nice response to the (justified) criticism of him being close to a luxury player, firing impossible shots, and having matches where he disregards too much of his surroundings.

    For his clubs he probably reached his peaks between 2006 and 2008 and then of course in 2010 with the treble for Inter. Think of his game at Stamford Bridge, robbing balls from Messi in the semis, the winning assists with only the keeper to beat in the Champions League final itself, the 'big' league games against chief competitors Milan and Roma.

    Unfortunately for him, his anemia brought problems after 2010 (though he arguably belonged among the couple Inter players who tailed off the least). Sneijder said realistically: "My entire club career as midfielder is unfortunately not the shiny picture one hopes, but I am happy with the level I reached at the European Championships, the World Cup, the Champions League. The three highest levels in world football."
     
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  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Possibly I forgot to mention the 85th minute winning goal he had against Juventus in the same 2013 year. This made them progress and eliminated Juventus. Things like that made his national team position stronger again.

    The second video is the best.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #157 PuckVanHeel, Aug 31, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
    Ruud Gullit (1962, Amsterdam)

    The Independent (1997): "#8, RUUD GULLIT It was the footballing cliche of 96. No matter how long the lay-off, or how short the appearance as a substitute, Gullit was the best player on the field. One of the greats in his prime, he remains a delight in his dotage, apparently playing the game in a different time zone. Would be far higher, and his Chelsea team more successful, were he able to play more frequently."

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruud_Gullit





    (as has been my intention before, here below some things that are not obvious from wikipedia)

    Here we have the radiating and sympathy generating Amsterdammer who was a Feyenoord fan in his boyhood and grew up together with Frank Rijkaard, even though abroad he tends to gather more sympathy than at home. Gullit was with his range of skills (including visionary long passes of different types if he had to - shame the sensational one against Scotland has been deleted - or special flicks), and range of positions he starred in one of the true 'total footballers'. Gullit is one of seven foreigners to be in the Italian football hall of fame (as well as, of course, one of 17 foreigners in the Milan hall of fame).

    Gullit was in his time undoubtedly seen as one of the very best players of his era; some managers as Mourinho, Wenger, Heynckes and Tele Santana even saw him as the best of his time. Mourinho has called him his favorite ever player. Gullit was seen - and voted - as one of the best players in his league for five different teams (Feyenoord, PSV, Milan, Sampdoria, Chelsea) and received Ballon d'Or votes for the first four teams.

    After his father fended off interest from Ajax, Gullit started his career as a 16 years old for Haarlem. He was then the 2nd youngest debutant in history of Dutch professional football (at that time Eredivisie was #2 in the UEFA coefficients). There he was already seen as promising and of a certain class while playing as a defender.

    The next jump was made at Feyenoord, where he entered more glamorous jobs and positions, and played alongside another famous 'total footballer' as a big help for his . He was there perceived as one of the better players in the league and received his first international applause. It was Feyenoord's first league title in 10 years. He narrowly missed the last eight teams of the European Championships, having scored a crucial goal against Brady's Ireland (assist Van Basten), but lost out on goal difference.

    The fame grew further at PSV, despite his six games European ban, culminating in a world record fee for a player who played 50% of his time as a sweeper. The back-to-back titles were PSV's first in 8 years.

    A strong qualification campaign for euro 1988, and a 4-1 destruction of Napoli brought him the Ballon d'Or. Paolo Maldini said: "I always say Van Basten was with all his qualities and mental traits the best player I played with, but Ruud [Gullit] was the catalyst. He gave the spark and changes for reaching the top level, it helped a young defender like me. We didn't win the league when he was injured." (the returning Gullit played in the 1990 title decider).

    This is from Maldini's perspective plausibly best visible in the 1988-89 season when he could play half of the (important) games. Milan conceded 17 goals in the 1604 minutes that he couldn't play, and only 8 goals in the 1456 minutes he played. In the European Cup (two goals in the final) Milan conceded 4 goals in the 342 minutes he did not play (Red Star and Sofia), and 1 goal in 498 minutes he played (Red Star, Werder Bremen, Real Madrid, Steaua). In the close run 1987-88 season Milan conceded 2 of the 14 goals in the two games Gullit was not playing.

    After knee surgeries (he suffered five in total) he returned strong between 1990 and 1992, including performing against his own team-mates, but also Inter, 'superteam' Marseille, the destruction of Fiorentina (this video leaves out his assists), Juventus. Though he had lost (from time to time) a bit of his sudden acceleration, he was still by many seen as one of the best attacking midfielders of the league, if not the very best.

    Then in 1992-93 Gullit fell victim to Cappelo's rotation policy. Gullit found it hard to understand how he could be rotated, even if he played very strong and was rated high by the press. Gullit said: "For the first two thirds of the season we simply won more games when I played and we won all the four Champions League matches I played in. In the last third, with Marco out injured, we were a more potent attack when I played." The numbers back this up a little bit.

    Gullit moved successfully to Sampdoria, at a time when the league was at its absolute dominance (also from a tactical perspective, 1988 to 1998), with quality and results everywhere. Sampdoria improved from 7th place to a surprise 3rd place and won the Coppa Italia (a year later they reached the CWC semi final, in which Gullit did not play). Gullit helped to put three past his former club Milan with a goal and assist. Milan conceded only 15 goals all season, three of them after the title was secure. At least Gazzetta dello Sport and La Stampa saw him as the best player in the country; he was a plausible contender.

    Gullit then scored 13 more non-penalty goals in 1994-95. Gullit ended his club career at Chelsea, and his entry as player and manager coincided with their upsurge to a top six club after 1996 (only once, in 2015-16, outside the top six since).

    Ruud Gullit was effectively the first European born black player who was realistically seen as the best European player in the game, if not in the world. Gullit was also the first European captain with a skin color to raise a major international trophy for club or country (if we see Mario Coluna as African born and raised in Africa; since then only Rio Ferdinand repeated this in 2008, with Neville sidelined) - his childhood friend Frank Rijkaard achieved something similar as a manager. Finally, he was the first overseas manager to win a major trophy in England.

    Although he is seen in his own country as one of the best of his nation, his reputation is not without dents and in 2014 a group of experts (people who know their stuff, but are subjective) placed him outside the all-time Orange XI. Gullit always maintained his positive, enthusiastic but outspoken personality.
     
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  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #158 PuckVanHeel, Aug 31, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2018
    Here one with his left foot. Also saw later he captained a (rare) FIFA XI in 1991, succeeding Zico and the likes.
     
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  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #159 PuckVanHeel, Sep 1, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
    Johan Cruijff (1947, Amsterdam)

    11Freunde: "He was the god of the Champions League: Johan Cruyff was directly involved in ten titles, other winners were influenced by him. [...] Overall, Johan Cruyff had his hands in no less than ten European Cup triumphs. No other figure in the history of this competition even approaches this achievement. And countless other teams and individuals that have been influenced by Cruyff have not even been considered. These include Arsène Wengers indomitable Arsenal Elf, the "Invincibles", which in 2004 played perhaps the most beautiful football ever seen by an English team, or even the wonderful "Danish Dynamite" of the eighties."

    France Football: "Stoichkov his first Ballon d'Or is also for a little bit the fourth of Johan."
    "Think Cruijff out of the game, and our Ballon d'Or list might well look radically different on a dozen places. He was this good in making teams, and invariably the mutual interaction with the players, better."


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    (here more from around that time)

    (here against top teams)


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Cruyff

    (keep it short, because wiki is pretty long and pretty complete - perhaps they miss that the American press voted him as the best of their league in 1979 and 1980)

    The footballer Hendrik Johannes Cruijff was most probably the main piece - in pretty much all of them - behind 10 league titles, 5 times runner-up, 8 domestic cup finals (7 wins), 4 European finals (3 wins), 8 European semi finals and two remarkable podium finishes with the national team. His Ajax remains one of the smallest teams to win the European Cup or Champions League - it certainly is in attendance, back then an invaluable source of income and might.

    When he retired in 1984 (still the knock-out era) there was only one outfield player to play more European games as him, Francisco Gento. Cruijff has the all-time highest win percentage of all players with more than 50 games in the Eredivisie.

    At the 1974 World Cup with 16 teams competing - where he missed a large chunk of the preparation because of knee troubles after a kick by the police football team - he has one of the highest ever dribble tallies against Sweden, and one of the highest ever chance creations against Bulgaria. He also produced goals and assists against Argentina, Brazil and West Germany (the latter two among the main favorites, Brazil #1 in Elo ranking too).

    By sources as The Times, Placar, Reuters, Associated Press, Mondial, Brian Glanville, Guerin Sportivo (in 1977) and Shoot! he was between 1971 and 1978 seen as the best player in the world, in terms of skill and influence (France Football did not say 'world' but 'Europe'). Seen as someone whose mere presence made teams competitive, even if there are few or no other stars of note, and a Barcelona that totally ceased to be top two without him on the field. Even the national team did much better with him playing rather than the alternatives.

    Eventually, his 'untouchable status' (okay, he was through the decades continuously accused of being outdated, and is still not liked in PSV circles) is not because he could kick against a ball well, and that he had an amazing amount of assists - at the very, very least 350 in official matches.

    In that respect Clarence Seedorf had at a sports convention a few words, which I tried to translate:

    Show Spoiler

    It is a good question whether one should name a stadium after a person, and it is fine people say 'wait a minute'. So here my part for waiting three minutes, maybe.

    Football is a team effort, and this is even the case for the institutions and organisations behind the teams that are supposed to back the players. When people talk about football, there is an in itself insufficient and incomplete core of facts and truths, but also a whole cloud and shell of perceptions and impressions. This makes it risky to put someone on a pedestal.

    Here it is I'd say merited. When we look at the player Cruijff, we see someone who reached elite level for the league, for Europe and for the national team. His dribble in the World Cup final, the final, is one of the more iconic images around the globe. He reached that top level for all three, and he had longevity even though one needs luck and fate for this. He had his dose of misfortune, as a kid I saw him playing in the stadium and he wasn't treated gently. With my dad I saw him playing against really good teams in his mid-30s and few would say he had no consistent contributions there, that's longevity.

    We also see a guy who was with football boots on 'complete'. He did not only play multiple positions and roles, he excelled in it. He was excellent in the dribble and excellent in the sliding tackle dispossesing the ball; if people questioned his skill to score goals, he responded the next game. Technically, tactically and also mentally he was a master, with maybe his physique not always quite there but that's the least important thing to appreciate for the question we have here. His leadership, as one of the leaders, showed a diversity of facets over time.

    He had it in him to do remarkable things and be outstanding for fantastic teams with many international names, and had also a handful remarkable achievements for a few underpowered teams with him as only international name. To show the project was not only about him, he even helped to bring teams to a level that they could continue without him, after a number of years of involvement. And yet during the project it had often big and visible negative effects when he had to sit out games. Michels said in the mid 1970s "without Cruijff there is no team", that is always a hyperbole but the breakdown by the Mullier Institute shows his winning contribution well. All of these things makes him a complete figure in playing terms.

    This was only further confirmed after his playing days. He mastered and greatly contributed to areas as youth development, management, scouting, recruitment, video analysis, tactical concepts, players pension, players insurance, punditry on television and a lot more. He can't do it all alone, but the key behind his impact whenever and wherever he peeked around the corner - even shortly before his death at Ajax - was his eye for the whole picture and dot on the horizon, but being the specialist, that crucial quality wheel in the construction, when being called upon. This combination empowered him to be mightily creative with his mind, influence others, and transform it into practical things. With all those quirky linguistic twists that he had, he created that succesful paradigm as one might say.

    Again and again he proved his worth in different type of settings and with many different people in his staff over five decades, and there were many moments in time that the majority of people said "Netherlands, Spain, Ajax, Barcelona will never win, or never play a final again". You often saw a pattern of the same signatures such as his unwavered faith in the youth, playing out from the back, underlining his hand was a big part in the building. That isn't accidental.

    You can see that his presence or coming back to the scene made players better, teams qualitatatively and quantitavely better, and even brought whole leagues to a higher level - getting them to think along his lines or at least incorporating elements of his style.

    Not unimportant, his general behavior was unpolished but exemplary. He did not commit cardinal sins, did not bribe, did not steal, and deep down he was a generous person. The distressed and general interest found in him a true friend. When he saw ex-sporters entering a black hole, or houses destroyed by a flood, it was his very own initiative to take responsibility.

    He - yes, I will finish - did not always opt for the easy option and he helped to break barriers in Netherlands, Catalonia, Spain and arguably more places, even unrelated to football, for which he received high civilian orders. I'd argue he helped to make it easier for players like Rijkaard, Gullit and myself too - we could be leading and intelligent players in our own right. I think if anyone deserves a stadium it is him. Whether or not Cruijff was the actual best player to be dressed in an Ajax or Orange shirt, or whether he was always polite, misses what it ought to symbolise. That is not why we should do these things.


    -----------------------

    Goalkeepers:

    Frans de Munck (1922, Goes)
    Hans van Breukelen (1956, Utrecht)
    Jan van Beveren (1948, Amsterdam)
    Edwin van der Sar (1970, Voorhout)

    Defenders:

    Danny Blind (1961, Vlissingen)
    Harry Denis (1896, The Hague)
    Giovanni van Bronckhorst (1975, Rotterdam)
    Cor van der Hart (1928, Amsterdam)
    Rinus Israel (1942, Amsterdam)
    Frank de Boer (1970, Hoorn)
    Ruud Krol (1949, Amsterdam)
    Jaap Stam (1972, Kampen)
    Ronald Koeman (1963, Zaandam)
    Frank Rijkaard (1962, Amsterdam)

    Defensive midfielders:

    Wim Jansen (1946, Rotterdam)
    Mark van Bommel (1977, Maasbracht)
    Edgar Davids (1973, Paramaribo)
    Arie Haan (1948, Finsterwolde)

    Central midfielders:

    Philip Cocu (1970, Eindhoven)
    Johan Neeskens (1951, Heemstede)
    Clarence Seedorf (1976, Paramaribo)
    Willem van Hanegem (1944, Breskens)

    Attacking midfielders:

    Arnold Mühren (1951, Volendam)
    Ronald de Boer (1970, Hoorn)
    Rafael van der Vaart (1983, Heemskerk)
    Willy van der Kuijlen (1946, Helmond)
    Wesley Sneijder (1984, Utrecht)
    Ruud Gullit (1962, Amsterdam)
    Johan Cruijff (1947, Amsterdam)
     
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  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
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  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    After a very brief look I saw here a nice pass by him. This one is also not that bad.

    Potentially there are many more because it was not that hard to find. Has some okay outside the box shots and goals too.


    The first one links to the wrong video. Should be this. Maybe his managerial record could've been highlighted more by me (in 10 seasons 6 European finals with two different clubs and countries, the quantity etc.), or how involved he was with passes and touches at the 1974 World Cup.

    Either way, will get to the wingers in the coming days (not today). @annoyedbyneedoflogin his feedback or wondering/criticism would be welcome.
     
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  13. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    #163 annoyedbyneedoflogin, Sep 2, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
    I had been rather distracted last week. But I shall touch upon an attacking midfielder briefly.

    For the most part, I agree with @PuckVanHeel 's assessment.
    Spot on comments :thumbsup:
    Van der Vaart should not be on the list. I'd prefer van der Kuijlen's trainer Kees Rijvers or Kick Smit, who was also compared with Johan Cruijff.

    In Amsterdam, I have seen the rise and "fall" of van der Vaart.
    He was brought to the first team at a very young age. This had nothing to do with luck. There was plenty of competition for places.
    He was enthusiastic, creative and had an eye for the goal. As his body grew stronger and faster, he became more and more prolific. The comparison with Cruijff was just. I recall that Kaka, the upcoming youngster at Milan, was lauded greatly at the time. Van der Vaart was even ahead of him. Perhaps had he received the international recognition at the time, then he could have developed more at the right club abroad.
    Ajax' football reached peak flair when vdV and Litmanen featured together. It had something heartwarming because it were two of the nicest guys playing synergistically as maybe a father and son would.
    Fatum. Litmanen was released by Koeman. Van der Vaart was unsuitably appointed captain of an unprofessional group of players. He suffered injuries and his motivation shifted from football to his girlfriend. Rafael got fat and slow. He was no longer a teenager with the eye of the tiger. He was now a simp with a job.
    Wesley Sneijder quickly moved past him.
    Sadly, Rafael van der Vaart was now in his twenties.
    One cannot help but relating 'what if' questions to the talent of van der Vaart.
     
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  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #164 PuckVanHeel, Sep 2, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
    Thanks for your feedback. Very appreciated and I learn from it too.

    Rijvers is among the inside-forwards, and agree he's potentially an attacking midfielder. He was (in part) known for his work-rate and moving up and down a bit - but it's difficult to asses quite how involved he was in touches, construction from deep, putting a foot in defensively, intercepting, his share in the total amount of passes, or his assists.

    I think Cruijff was compared to Kick Smit (sometimes), not the other way round. Smit is 36 years his senior.

    Think I'd have Van der Vaart at the bottom of the top 50 for his talent (another nice example) and also productivity for a midfielder. I suppose that is also consistent with not putting the ultimate value on trophies; many of the very greatest players were not the greatest winners (at club, national team level, or both). He still got his recognition by fellow pros and managers in the Bundesliga and Premier League

    I struggle a bit to see him ahead of Arnold Mühren.

    Re: Van der Kuijlen, I took the time to scroll/watch the match compilations this weekend and I noticed that the quality of his performances vary. Some are way better than others. The first compilation in the row is one of his worst I'd say, the Bastia one of his best, the one against Poland also decent.

    Good comments.

    He did get international recognition in the sense that he got the 'Golden Boy' in 2003 (for the calendar year) and was put ahead of Rooney and, further down the list, Kaka and Cristiano.

    The two seasons before VDV was starter Ajax was 6th and 5th in the table. Then they got 3rd (would probably be 2nd if VDV had played all games), 1st, 2nd, 1st and 2nd. Then he left and they dropped to 4th, and it took 7 years (and the explicit higher involvement of JC14) to win a title again. This is the simplistic version but it tells a bit. VDV also showed it in the Champions League, and Ajax their European form was better as before he entered the scene.

    You sum up well the problem with his reputation. He gave the impression to not really care and also place family and parents first all the time (that the latter has also a positive side, became very obvious later). There is naturally more sympathy for a Robben or Van Basten who returned strong a few times from issues, and clearly showed mentality for it.

    I think the people, and especially insiders, are perfectly aware that fitness (which also influences technique by the way) is hard to bracket into talent, nor is it completely in your control. There are plenty factors outside the control of the athlete in this respect (see, as example, VDV his own comments on "care and attention for new players"). It is a team game. But the reputation enters dangerous territory, in our regions at least, when the downfall seems to be exclusively your own neglect. He is a prime example of that.

    I think the main problem with the Cruijff comparison was - and there were many just and verifiable similarities indeed - that apart from being left footed, he had of course not the same phenomenal football brain. That's arguably JC14 his stand-out feature and VDV was 'just' excellent in that regard.

    See also in that regard the managers they worked with and their track record; in contrast, Rinus Michels, except for maybe euro 1988, had remarkably little success without JC14 his involvement (as also elaborated by Schulze-Marmeling in his great book), with one 3rd place as best league finish, and a 2nd round in Europe (not counting 1980-81 when he stepped in half October after the season started, semi final in UEFA Cup).
    Nevertheless, VDV was the only one who got that comparison in any real sense (not just qualitatively, for which other youngsters might pass the test too, but style and role wise).


    (one of the few available - of course not in his prime form here)
     
  15. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    #165 annoyedbyneedoflogin, Sep 2, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
    Well, technically Cruijff is the gold standard of comparisons but let's not twist over grammar.

    Rijvers shows a lot of similarities with Antonio Sastre. Both moved from left forward to right central midfield and possessed great brains. I guess the inside forward category will be for classic players?

    In my reckoning, vdV's peak season was 2001/2002. The Golden boy award of 2003 can only be reputation based.

    Another parallel regarding your post:
    I believe what Cruijff meant to Michels is similar to what Suárez meant to Herrera.

    I agree with your views on vdK. In some games he was dribbling the lot. And in other games he had tremendous difficulty getting the play forward.
    Also Gullit I find hard to rate because of this. His ball control was consistently suspect though :D

    Would you prefer Mühren over Thijssen (also @PDG1978)?
    And will you also publish your own list of 50?
     
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  16. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Instead of Sastre, I guess you're refereing to Pedernera?

    Btw, great read in this thread
     
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  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #167 PuckVanHeel, Sep 3, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
    That's a very good comparison, 'the architect' Suarez, although I'd doubt Suarez was the player-coach that Cruijff was, as shown by Suarez his managerial and administrative career and what he did without Herrera next to him (okay, the national team perhaps, individually). But that's my idea.


    I think this varied. Can be a matter of fitness, in the same way it was for Ronaldo Luis and even Ronaldinho. Gullit had his slick 'Laudrup shuffles'.

    Apart from whether it is his best match, it doesn't look suspect here to me. Of course he had his lesser controls, but so had a Best, Zidane or Ronaldinho.

    His range of skills were very good. See this or this. He was also a good shooter, thus no wonder he scored consistently a good amount of goals (for his position) if he played deep.


    Maybe I will do my own top 50 but I find that not so interesting. You can be sure I'll indicate it when I strongly disagree with some placements.

    Despite Thijssen being footballer of the year in England, I think Muhren was the bigger name. He made the top five too in FWA and PFA polls in his time. When Thijssen was FWA player of the year, Muhren was fourth. 'We' know that we should take that not too literal.

    As mentioned in the profile, Muhren made the covers of magazines when he retired (World Soccer too). Not the case for Thijssen.

    Thijssen was the more explosive guy, Muhren the one with stamina. Thijssen the one of the dribble, Muhren the distributor and varied passer from a diverse range of places on the pitch. Muhren was technically, in his trapping and directional control, fractionally better. Muhren scored three times as many goals in England as Thijssen.

    I also appreciate it that Muhren found success and his role in a diverse set of teams. Personally I agree with VI.
     
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  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I am a little too young to make a good, or certainly definitive, call (even in my own opinion) on Thijssen and Muhren, but Puck's summary looks good. Muhren was more the passer and Thijssen a better dribbler. Muhren also has better longevity, but at Ipswich maybe they were seen as comparable/roughly equal I think, although despite Thijssen being briefly a Forest player, Muhren was the more famous name in my childhood even before Euro 88.

    Gullit's skills, is an interesting topic indeed: I feel he even seemed at his 'smoothest' as a Chelsea player, but I don't claim that was his true peak or anything like that.
     
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  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #169 PuckVanHeel, Sep 3, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
    Wing players

    Gerald Vanenburg (1964, Utrecht)

    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Vanenburg





    (also here, wikipedia is pretty complete, take a read)

    Gerald Vanenburg finds invariably his place in discussions about the most gifted players the low countries has seen. Vanenburg was capable of spellbinding things, for the spectator, and his shot placement was phenomenal when at his best. Before he turned 20 he had scored 50 non-penalty goals while (intentionally!) not being the main guy. At the age of 18 and 1 months he was and still is the youngest debuting national team player of the post-war era.

    Vanenburg is invariably also judged by what he didn't do, rather than he did. Literally and figuratively speaking he did not grow into the earth shattering superstar. He became a very good support player (winger or attacking midfielder), combining very well with both Van Basten and Romario (with Romario he naturally did not score as much as with MvB, Bosman or Kieft). At Ajax he was more spectacular than at PSV (here 2nd example), where he was nevertheless fairly reliable.

    For such technical, seemingly phlegmatic player, he was more reliable than he gets fleetingly credit for. The press rated him 6 times among the 25 best players, and two times as top name, which is quite consistent for his time and compared to his peers. His colleagues voted him 5 times among the final three names (see this thread, 'award' started in 1984). In European matches he rarely belonged among the worst performing players of his team.

    Gerald Vanenburg won eight league titles, five cups, the treble and the European Championship as a starting player. About 140 non-penalty goals is also not so bad for his role. For this combination of ability, consistency and application he maybe deserves more credit, rather than the mandatory remark that he hasn't the voice of a leader, or did not go into Ibra or Gullit mode. 'Voetbal International' agreeably quotes Wim Kieft: "He belongs intrinsically to the better players of his succesful generation and did not receive the appreciation he truly deserved. Nowadays I think yet: a lot more could have been extracted, more was residing into him." His national team career stalled after 1989, perhaps also a little bit unfairly for him.

    At the age of 29 he moved or fled to Japan, the place that was similar to what the Chinese league is now in football. He returned later to Europe as a sweeper, with the plan to end his career at his hometown FC Utrecht. That did not go well, just as the spell at Cannes. Thanks to young player-manager Addick Koot (a countryman, started 21 games), who was by his own admission not up to the task, and bad leadership in the directorate they got relegated. That was not how Vanenburg wanted it to end, so he got to 1860 Munich playing as a sweeper and trying to help them improve. He retired on a more positive and improved note, but Hassler got injured for a time thus Vanenburg was requested to play another year as starting player, which he reluctantly did, finishing fourth. He was the last player of the 1988 XI to retire (Aron Winter, who did not receive minutes, played until 2002).

    The superstar who would reduce fellow Utrechter Van Basten (born in the same year) to an afterthought he was not, but still had individually a good career and achieved a few things as a starting player.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #170 PuckVanHeel, Sep 3, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
    In other words, in 12 full seasons in Eredivisie he won 8 times the championship (exceptions are 1983-84 Feyenoord of JC14; 1985-86 PSV of Gullit; 1989-90 Ajax of Bergkamp as main goals+assists producer; 1992-93 Feyenoord of Metgod/De Goey). That's for Eredivisie standards exceptional and a rare ratio. Of course some luck with timing is involved whereas a Gullit was more the type of guy to shift the balance by himself.

    This (children) video, starting at 02:09, has many scenes, including one touch plays. From 58:15 onward also the better defensive work.



    @annoyedbyneedoflogin
     
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  21. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Pedernera initially played in a slightly more advanced role, compared to Rijvers and Sastre.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Herrera has a part to play in the next wing player, but I'm struggling a bit with how to do it.

    The rough bullet point draft ended up with two times as many negatives and that just isn't right. Have to re-think and go over it again.

    For now, let me mention here that Vanenburg had a neutral balance (as libero) against city rivals Bayern Munich (1998-2000). One win, a draw, one loss. That's good.

    Some of the kicker graders were apparently also a fan of him.

    Few man of the matches designations that I saw:
    http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...lanalyse_hansa-rostock-3_1860-muenchen-5.html
    http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...analyse_vfb-stuttgart-11_1860-muenchen-5.html
    http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...ielanalyse_hertha-bsc-29_1860-muenchen-5.html
    http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...ielanalyse_1860-muenchen-5_sc-freiburg-7.html

    Other reports with praise:
    http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...alyse_1860-muenchen-5_bayern-muenchen-14.html
    http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...ielanalyse_sc-freiburg-7_1860-muenchen-5.html
    http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...lanalyse_hamburger-sv-12_1860-muenchen-5.html
    http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...analyse_vfl-wolfsburg-24_1860-muenchen-5.html

    That are a few - did not check all.

    He was also among the top graded players of his team (2nd highest outfield player, the best rated creative player) although that is not uncommon for players playing in defense.

    His club did improve from 13th to 9th and then 4th, so in that sense he was a part of an improvement process and at least retired more positively than the sour spells at Utrecht and Cannes. The first video maybe doesn't show his mastery in the small spaces very well, only at the very end from 6:30 onward.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Coen Moulijn (1937, Rotterdam)

    [​IMG]






    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coen_Moulijn


    The winger and inside-forward Coen Moulijn was possibly the best player of his country in the first half of the 1960s and the late 1950s. This is the consensus of the participants of the era that came after him, no matter the background or allegiance. Although he did not take part, he was mentioned and called up for the 'orange team of the century' in 1999.

    The left footed left winger made in 487 league matches 84 goals. That the towering Cor van der Gijp (not in top 50) became the club's all-time topscorer was in no small part because of Moulijn's delivery, in 1961 Feyenoord's twenty-one years title drought was ended.

    In 1959 Helenio Herrera and Barcelona filed an official request, with an opening bid of half the world transfer record, a considerable amount for a Dutch player (or any low countries player) at the time. Moulijn had however his doubts about the long term prospects and had also his familial reasons, more on that later. In 1961 - when Moulijn had played a couple times against serious foreign opposition - he was by France Football placed among the best foreign wingers of his day, with the comment "Frail and elegant, he is second to none to go through a defensive network thanks to his feints and his lightning hooks."; which might be one of the more difficult yet effective skills for a winger.

    Abroad he found most of his recognition around 1964, when he tormented Real Madrid so much that they kicked him ruthlessly (here and here). He also scored a nice goal against England (maybe helping him to two votes by foreign voters for the Ballon d'Or?), and guided his team to a win against France (though injury troubled Raymond Kopa, after which Moulijn's handicapped son was named, was unable to play). In 1965 he was set play in Stanley Matthews his testimonial match but a leg break ruled him out. This are a few examples.

    The by Moulijn admired 31-years old Kopa played in the 1963 quarter-final for the European Cup. Moulijn played a part in creating one of the goals and Feyenoord went to the semi finals (2-1 aggregate win). There the mighty Benfica with their gigantic crowds was too much.

    Moulijn was definitely past his best when Feyenoord improved further as a club, and also when they won the European Cup. There he had still some contributions such as winning penalties and assist against Milan (good video that!). The 1970 final he played in injured condition, after a kick by Israel on the training (good videos of semi finals deleted, sadly). He had also his shining moments in the Intercontinental Cup match. For some that also shows, despite him being 32/33 years old, he had that level, even if he was born too early perhaps.

    There were and are however doubts (example), which reflects his relatively low placing here.

    The first thing is whether Moulijn actually peaked around 1964. After 1960 he started to train less because he had a handicapped son (died one year before he did) and he got busy with the shops of his wife and family. Can a winger really peak then? The domestic impression seems to be his prime was in the late 1950s and early 1960s.

    Second, despite some occasional meetings abroad in friendlies (or 'friendlies') and competitive matches (and you can say Moulijn tended to do well at a good proportion of games against the likes of Real Madrid), Dutch football was relatively isolated from top level football - with that circle containing Osterreicher, Peronace and the likes.
    Within this context of isolation, 'stadium club' Feyenoord (one of their nicknames) was the team with the biggest resonance. See as another example here how Van Heel (not in top 50) had made a reputation in 1950s Yugoslavia. In 1962 the port of Rotterdam became the largest in the world, hence the international nickname 'Gateway to Europe' or 'Gateway to the world'.

    Third, it is doubted how much he really was needed for the results and successes. His skill, also from an inside forward position, is visible on videos, but people have questioned if he was really crucial. His greatest successes and trophies don't overlap very well. Of his major titles only a few were in his prime, and how necessary was he really anyway? (not saying I agree!!)

    Regardless, he was well possibly the country's biggest name of the late 1950s and first half of the 1960s.

    (I'm afraid that I forget something crucial, have a lingering feeling somewhere - might come back to it with a few additions)

    @annoyedbyneedoflogin @PDG1978
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This is what the good 'World Soccer from A to Z' book (1973) wrote about him:

    "Clever, elusive outside-left whose superb ball play and individualism made him, before the advent of Cruyff and Keizer, the most charismatic Dutch player of his day. He went to Feyenoord while a teenager, in 1954, yet it was not until his 30s that he enjoyed his most notable successes as the Rotterdam club won the 1970 European Cup and then beat Estudiantes for the World Club Championship. When he retired in 1972, he had helped Feyenoord win the Dutch championship five times, including two league and cup doubles.
    Slight of physique but brave in the tackle, Moulijn possessed a fine technique, speed and acceleration that made him the fancy of many foreign clubs. But Feyenoord, at the request of the Dutch Federation, put a clause in his contract that ensured he stayed in the Netherlands. However, his form for the national team tended to be uneven, although he won 39 caps between 1956 and 1969."

    The also good International Football Book of 1983 placed him as the 10th best left winger, noticed now.
     
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  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #175 PuckVanHeel, Sep 4, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
    This is an excellent portrait from 1965. Watched it years ago, made some notes. There it is also said, at the end, he was likely at his best at the late 1950s.



    It has footage against international teams. Right at the beginning against Real Madrid, from 3:16 against Benfica in the semi finals and so on; 12:40 Real Madrid again; 18:54 Benfica; 22:38

    This is definitely past his best:


    (full video misses first 25 minutes)
     

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