Dutch footballer of the year press classification 1979-1994

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Personally think it's a mistake to place Stam ahead of Krol although I agree Stam had some good years, and they share recognition by the Italians themselves at times when they themselves had a wealth of good/great center backs (Stam also starter in three semi finals with NT). Stam is highly rated (the highest in his position) by DBScalcio and GdS 2002-2004.

    I do agree with VI's ordering of the top two, which I'll try to do in one post.
     
  2. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Perhaps a bit picky, but Stam was still mastering the offside trap in his early Manu days. So I'd put his peak 99-04.

    I can add that he claimed himself to be faster than Baresi and the lot. According to an eyewitness he did outrun Arsenal's Anelka, who was deemed one of the fastest players at the time.
    When I saw him live at Ajax, Stam still had an amazing topspeed. But he did get slow on the turn. His reputation saved him a couple of times as referees ruled out potentially costly fouls. He bunked with Huntelaar, despite the age difference. I saw them as the Dutch elite.

    The comparison with Krol is a hard one.
    Some of Krol's attacking runs at Napoli were really impressive. But there he no longer showed the same speed advantage in defense as in his early days.
    At Lazio, Stam also showed some offensive prowess, unleashing merciless cannonballs from the setpiece.
    All in all, Krol is the best creator of the two. Defensively I'd give it to Stam as he is reported to often have solved situations where Manu was outnumbered on the break.
    To conclude, it is like comparing apples and oranges but Krol was the better side back.
     
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  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Ronald Koeman

    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Koeman


    (I like this video because it also shows some defensive actions as an intermezzo)

    High scoring defender, according to IFFHS the most scoring defender in the history of the sport. The only defender to become topscorer of the Champions League.

    Was at his transfer to Barcelona the most expensive defender, costs more than Stoichkov, Bakero and Laudrup combined.

    Became after Miodrag Belodedici the second player to win the European Cup with two different teams (1988 and 1992; top 10 BdO in both years). First with the highly cautious PSV, the second time with the highly attacking Barcelona.

    Good as well for Feyenoord in his veteran years, captaining them to the semi finals of the Cup Winners Cup, nominated for footballer of the year. A guarantee for goals and assists. Notoriously slow, but strong on the tackle and one-on-one in smaller spaces.





    Frank Rijkaard

    [​IMG]

    All-purpose defensive player who often stepped up with goals or assists at many big occasions (1987 CWC semi final, 1989 EC final, 1990 EC final, 1990 Intercontinental Cup, 1990 Super Cup, euro 1992 semi final [...] winning assist in 1995 UCL final).

    Had with those three matches against AC Milan (then the richest club in the world) a career trajectory as a boys book, his career ending is as a movie script, it kind of includes all the Hollywood clichés. Very consistent and solid for the national team.

    Might as well be among the midfielders, that becomes a long debate. For example he won his 1992 Guerin d'Oro as midfielder with creative tasks, but did very well for them too as center back - next to Baresi - in 1988-89 (as well as stand-in for Baresi). Was able to alternate in style quite a bit too, from box-to-box to more like Busquets under Van Gaal.

    Sort of agree with Rijkaard > Koeman.


    -------

    Goalkeepers:

    Frans de Munck (1922, Goes)
    Hans van Breukelen (1956, Utrecht)
    Jan van Beveren (1948, Amsterdam)
    Edwin van der Sar (1970, Voorhout)

    Defenders:

    Danny Blind (1961, Vlissingen)
    Harry Denis (1896, The Hague)
    Giovanni van Bronckhorst (1975, Rotterdam)
    Cor van der Hart (1928, Amsterdam)
    Rinus Israel (1942, Amsterdam)
    Frank de Boer (1970, Hoorn)
    Ruud Krol (1949, Amsterdam)
    Jaap Stam (1972, Kampen)
    Ronald Koeman (1963, Zaandam)
    Frank Rijkaard (1962, Amsterdam)
     
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  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    One thing that might have been included above: of the 'golden generation' R. Koeman is the player with the most European games (scored in two successive finals too), and also of that generation the player with the most caps for national team (I'm not counting Aron Winter who I see more as a 1990 - 2000 player, with e.g. that strong 1997-98 season for Inter - Winter is by the way not included in the top 50). Furthermore, only Ruud Gullit had the captain's armband more often than R. Koeman (41 vs 33 times).

    That's not an unusual trope for defensive players.

    Will think now about how to do the midfielders thing. Will probably do the defensive midfielders thing separately, but that is a short list.

    Good comments @annoyedbyneedoflogin
     
  5. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Nice work, nice list :thumbsup:

    So far, the biggest omissions are PvH and de Korver.
     
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  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #106 PuckVanHeel, Aug 15, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
    Defensive midfielders

    Wim Jansen

    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Jansen

    Only 1.65m short, he is someone to often appear in 'underrated' and 'underappreciated' discussions and counter-discussions (Jan Wouters, not in the top 50, is also such figure). This was boosted further after his good 1978 World Cup final match, and he played after Ruud Krol the most World Cup minutes of that 1970s generation. In some occasional matches he could be a prolific tackler; with 14 tackles against Uruguay in 1974 he is 2nd in the list behind Dunga against Cameroon in 1994.

    Typically - as with many 'underappreciated players' - he was very popular among team-mates and also his club opponents. His positioning was praised, with him filling in gaps and holes, when his team has the ball and when they don't. Though he didn't say much, an image built around his 'opinionated silence', some early remarks by him were quite revealing. The 'top 500 sporters' book quotes: "In my view, if Cruijff doesn't score and is not noticeable, he is at his best. He is through that able to get his team to a higher level, and it is at his age remarkable he thinks he has to help to make the competition better in order to make himself better. As a character more special than as a player." This reading about another person (it's said they became later friends) can plausibly find some application on himself too. The 'top 500' book: 'With this Jansen said implicitly that the big star is at his best, if he plays equal to Wim Jansen.'

    For the B-draft from 2013 I translated an excerpt from Feyenoord's Jubilee Book (2008), when PDG drafted Ivo Viktor and Wim Jansen back then.

    Show Spoiler
    "Wim Jansen has the name Wim Jansen for a reason. A common name for a common man, who made for 30 years rarely an arousal in professional football."
    Nice sentence from 'the Volskrant', at the end of 1993. The newspaper sketches a profile of Mister Feyenoord because he, for the second time in his life, caused a stir. Jansen quits as technical manager of his club. He finds difficulties in following manager Wim van Hanegem and chairman Van den Herik. Jansen might be modest, he has also an own willpower. Little Wim refuses to be ran over.

    The first time he causes a stir is the end of 1980. After an advice of his close friend Johan Cruijff, he starts to play for Ajax after an American adventure. "Wim Jansen is a traitor", states an op-ed in 'Algemeen Dagblad' [Rotterdam newspaper]. "This demonstrates it is better to have a player with a big mouth instead of someone who never speaks. This is unacceptable."
    His debut for Ajax is precisely against Feyenoord in a ice-cold Feijenoord stadium. During the warm-up a frustrated fan smashes an ice ball against his right-eye. Years later Wim Jansen says in 'Voetbal International': "Through my stay in America and Amsterdam I started to see things in a different way."

    When he departs at the age of 33 to the United States, at the middle of the season, 'Het Vrije Volk' writes: "Wimpie Jansen leaves Feyenoord. Unbelievable [...]. Those two belong together. Wimpie is Feyenoord and Feyenoord is Wimpie."

    But after America and Amsterdam Jansen shrugs his shoulders. Of course he was a Feyenoord man, is a Feyenoord man and he will stay a Feyenoord man. But why all this fuss?

    Wilhelmus Marinus Antonius Jansen (28 October 1946) is raised in the 'Oude Noorden' [a borough in Rotterdam]. There the footballing youth is naturally attracted to Xerxes, but 'granddad Van Dijk', who isn't a relative of him, takes Jansen to Feyenoord. "At a random day he just walked in", says senior manager Fred Blankemeijer, who is related to the club for an eternity. "Nobody can say that he discovered Wim. Just only his father and mother."

    At the left Maasoever, Jansen develops himself into the ideal link-man, an unselfish and tireless team-player who is trusted blindly by Feyenoord between 1966 and 1980. He is the silent force in the stadium, bragging is strange to him, he prefers anonymity. About this he says in 1972, in the book 'Sportsterren': "Wim van Hanegem has the guts to approach everything, because he has always an answer ready. That is a gift I don't possess. I only smile, be silent and walk on. I don't have that 'liberated' of him."
    From 'Algemeen Dagblad' in 1993: "I'm introvert. Maybe it is related to that I grew up in a quiet family. I was the only child of the family. Always on my own. I took the matters into my own hands, also in football. That was enormously important when I was young. I didn't dance, did not go to the discotheque. Football was everything."

    About his school-days Jansen says in 'Sportsterren' that he always went for the six. "Because that is equally sufficient as a nine. If you accept a six, you save time for playing football."

    At school he is calculated, but on the football field he worked himself to the bone. "In that I was fairly tough for myself, because the things available to achieve, that is what I wanted to achieve. Because of that, Feyenoord could use me for everything. One youth match on Saturday wasn't enough. If they missed a man for a position in other teams, I raised my hand and was stand-by for them."

    Jansen experiences his break-through in the first team of Feyenoord at the 1966-1967 season, when 4-2-4 was the default formation. Together with partner Moulijn, the inside-forward Jansen makes uncountable combinations. His debut for the national team is in the front-line as well. With Nuninga, Keizer and Cruijff he forms the front four. But this away game against Denmark on 4 October 1967 is lost with 3:2.

    A loss, with 1:0, also happens in his 65th and last cap, away against Spain, at the start of 1980. Jansen ends his national team career as right-back.

    In between those two losses the glory period is situated. At the 1974 World Cup he forms together with Willem van Hanegem and Johan Neeskens a famed midfield. Four years later, in a second final, he is against Argentina by a few experts seen as the best man of all twenty-two playing on the field.

    In thirteen years time he sees all corners of the field. But wherever the national team coach uses him, in attack, midfield or backline, Wimpie finds his place. Except his work-rate, solidness and reliability, he is also tactically of great value. In the trainers prose of today that is called 'reading the game'. Few players in Dutch history could 'read' a game as well as Wim Jansen. Few were as tactically adapt as Wim Jansen the right-back, left-back, libero, right-half, left-half, central midfielder and inside-left of the Dutch national team and Feyenoord.

    In the Rotterdam glory season 'little Wim' helps his club on the way to the European Cup final. In the home match against title-holder AC Milan he opens the score after which 'Big Wim', Van Hanegem, scores a second one.
    The success of Feyenoord finds the origins in the midfield, which is added by Ernst Happel with a third man, the Austrian Franz Hasil. Also outside the Netherlands the midfield line is viewed as top class. Van Hanegem and Hasil are allowed by Jansen to create the show. With his diligence and insight the handyman [literal translation!] prevents accidents when possession is lost.

    Wim Jansen is man of the club and city in all his fibres. If there is no match-day or training session, he is preferably on the other side, at Varkenoord, to look at the youth. The amateur section is also fine for him, it is good when a ball rolls. A football game, doesn't matter which level, makes Jansen unreachable. "If they start to talk to me, the words move past by me. A match sedates me. That is my nature."

    On the field, at the sidelines, or at home in front of the television, that is his life when he is married. Against the 'Vrije Volk' he says in 1980: 'Look, I'm a boring family man. I prefer to sit at home, next to Coby with the kids. Nicely watching television, no nonsense at your head, rest, tranquillity, silence."

    In seven 'fat' years Jansen wins three national titles, the European Cup, Intercontinental Cup and UEFA Cup. In the seventh 'meagre' year he suddenly quits, especially because he has issues with director Peter Stephan and his policy. At Washington Diplomats he becomes very close friends with the Johan and in 1982 they win as team-mates the championship with Ajax. He closes his player career with a second stint at the Diplomats, after which a trainer career starts.









    (That 2008 piece, translated 2013, is probably sufficient, but hope I don't overlook something - records, first-to-do etc.)
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Mark van Bommel (1977, Maasbracht)

    [​IMG]




    One of the more controversial footballers in the top 50, had Lothar Matthaus as his idol.

    His national team career was because of injuries (missed euro 2004) and public disagreements a no-show until his father-in-law became national team manager (2008-2012). Then he was made national team captain by his father-in-law when he shouldn't be playing anymore, followed by an awfully bad veteran season for PSV Eindhoven in 2012-13.

    Said in 2007 that he would rescind his passport and nationality, only to say a week later it was a joke.

    At the same time, he doesn't want to be seen as a thug and doesn't like to cultivate the image, and had an okay career with good ball-playing abilities too, a good passer of the ball (statistically). In the first half of his career he had his drives and dribbling runs from midfield, but that fades later.

    He made the ESM team of the year in 2004-05, when PSV was a real contender for winning the Champions League, and it remains the best result by a team outside the Big Five (outside the Big Four even, since Lyon lost with a four goals margin in theirs).

    A year later he won the Champions League with Barcelona, starting the quarter finals, semi finals and final in midfield, although Deco was the great star in that department (Xavi injured). After an adaptation period of a few months, he had made his way into the Barcelona side.

    He doesn't feel at ease and comfortable at Barcelona, asks to leave, and goes to Bayern Munich. He becomes voted Bayern player of the Year in his first season, and was a season later made the first (and so far only) foreign team captain of the club. This was before Van Gaal entered the club.

    After another Champions League final as team captain (Bayern's first in a decade), and a World Cup final, he falls out with Van Gaal and goes to Milan in the transfer window. There he is a part of Milan's improved run in the second half of the season, so far the last championship that Juventus did not win, and Milan's first since 2004.

    All in all one of the better careers by a defensive midfielder in that particular decade (2000 - 2010), with eight league titles as starter in four different countries, a few big finals he was part of with three different teams, some occasional big goals too, but with a controversial reputation (as he asked himself recently - should that be really more controversial than a Gattuso, Sergio Ramos?).

    Van Bommel tries to improve his reputation now as a coach, with so far (pre-season + early games) attack minded football. Something that he also tried as an underage coach.

     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Personally I wouldn't have Van Bommel in a top 50, although he did receive occasional nominations and such (for example here, when he was 33 years old). You don't become the first foreign team captain of a monopolist in a big league by chance.


    For the ones who are interested (not everyone will be, but do @annoyedbyneedoflogin a favor here), here one positive appraisal and a negative take (James Kelly and Michael Cox).

    Positive take (James Kelly):
    "Arriving on a free transfer, during his unveiling he surprised journalists by answering questions in perfect Spanish, having dedicated the whole summer to learning the language. On the pitch, he helped Barcelona win both LaLiga and the Champions League, with the Dutchman playing in both legs of the quarter and semi-finals of the victorious European campaign, alongside an hour of the final in Paris.

    It is arguably during his solitary season at the Camp Nou where the negative image of Van Bommel was formed. With the likes of Deco, Ronaldinho and Xavi providing the spark going forward, Van Bommel found himself deployed in a defensive role, tasked with the sole responsibility of breaking up play and feeding his more illustrious teammates. Regardless of his job, Van Bommel still recorded seven assists in 24 LaLiga games.

    [...]
    His charisma and leadership were well respected throughout his time in Bavaria, with Miroslav Klose commenting how Van Bommel helped him settle after his 2007 move from Werder Bremen.
    [...]
    A look at his honours list and longevity means perhaps some of the wider footballing community should reconsider too that, for all the gamesmanship and hard tackles, ultimately he was a very good footballer."
    https://thesefootballtimes.co/2018/07/25/the-brawn-and-the-brains-of-the-divisive-mark-van-bommel/

    Negative take (Michael Cox:
    "It's no coincidence that Van Bommel featured in the two dirtiest World Cup matches of recent years (and no coincidence that Holland played sparkling football at Euro 2008, when Van Bommel was omitted).
    [...]
    He certainly had qualities -- a good leader, a careful passer and a good long-range shooter. Ironically, Van Bommel was actually at his best defensively when intercepting rather than tackling, but his insistence upon physicality in later years meant he was forced to ignore the best feature of his game."

    http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/name/93/post/1839710/headline


    He was infamously red carded in his very last game. His first Champions League red card was after a clash with his youth hero Matthaus.

    He grew up 1 kilometre away from the Belgian border, and 9 kilometres away from the German border.

    Let's leave it at that he's in his own country one of the most divisive players of the past 50 years.
     
  9. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    I think Michael Cox' comments are spot on. And this might indeed be another case of ranking a player top 50 for his success.
    To also add something positive, MvBZ' 2010 WC performance level was on par with his partner de Jong. This wasn't always the case in earlier years. So despite his father-in-law, he still deserved his spot IMO.
    It makes me wonder if de Jong is listed or not lol.
    I'm curious to see what your take is on dirty play when Wouters gets highlighted. Here we seem to be much agreed.
     
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  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #110 PuckVanHeel, Aug 16, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
    :thumbsup:

    No, De Jong is not in the top 50, neither is Wouters (with his class act on Gascoigne, arguably the first time 'the elbow' entered wider public awareness).

    They have included very few defensive midfielders, or the ones you can classify as such. Maybe related (again) to that they're rarely among the better players of a team (seen that way), and/or that they had their pinnacle at other positions. His ratings aren't great necessarily, though he is by kicker the best graded midfielder of his club in his first season (maybe because they were more on the backfoot back then, rather than frontfoot).

    Both articles have some valid points, also James Kelly. Correlation is not the same as causation, but both Milan and Barcelona got better when he got into the side during the season (in case of Barca also with a fading Ronaldinho after March, injured Xavi); Barca had if anything a slow-ish start but then got better. Was also one of the main figures behind PSV's UCL run, still the best result by a club outside the big five and big four.

    Reasonable arguments can be made he helped to make teams better, was part of an improvement process, you don't become foreign team captain by chance (esp. in certain club cultures), yet also that all of those teams reached their peaks without him.

    I agree with you that PvH and maybe De Korver are more worthy of a place.

    Van Bommel has some great goals, as well as a few 'big goals' (for example late outside the box goal against Real Madrid - not as great in quantity or stage as Rijkaard of course).

    See here (halfway line goal) and here (strike against England - wtf is that tackle by Gary Neville there?).
     
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  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Final word;

    In a way a video like this has also some entertainment, especially the first video, LOL.

    He's more silky there than I remembered.



    (better to watch it on YT itself rather than embedded)

    The next one (probably tomorrow, or the day after) is the record holder in red cards for the national team :) (don't spoiler!)
     
  12. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Greetings, Puck: recently I’ve been going through the archives and videos of the Dutch sides of the 1990s and refreshing my memory of the Dutch goalkeepers of that epoch.

    I wanted to know your views on Ed de Goey, I remember him live as a sound keeper but perhaps their weakest link as I preferred Van Breukelen.

    Now looking back I still share those views. What’s your take on him and how he’s viewed over time back home.
     
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  13. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    #113 annoyedbyneedoflogin, Aug 16, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2018
    Fair point about the better players playing in different positions.
    Still, for those who might read this and think that MvBZ was a top 50 player considering their effective skill, I'll try to give a technical description, as well as one of Wouters.

    MvBZ was a central midfielder of decent stamina. He had decent recycling skills but would frequently resort to the dark arts of fouling and often getting away with the crime, also by throwing himself onto the ground and/or cursing at his opponent for simulation. He was also good at choosing the right moment to move forward and get himself into a shooting position, as the above videos demonstrate. However, many of his goals came from penalties.
    His ballplaying skills were limited in the sense that he would often opt for backpasses or movements that did not get the play up field.

    Jan Wouters, who is not in this top 50 nor does he have an appealing goalscoring record, was also a believer in the dark arts. Like MvBZ, he had decent stamina. He was more competent in physical duels and reserved his vice (elbows) mostly for special opponents (like Gascoigne). Wouters' game was simple; recycle possession, shake direct opponents and play the ball forward. He was no specialist in any of these 3 aspects but few defensive midfielders have mastered all 3 like Wouters. I'd say he has MvBZ beat on all accounts except for goal instinct, including direct setpieces.

    I would confirm your views. Ed had his trademark dive, which was a full stretch going have the distance. So e.g. if he dove to the right, his legs would actually move somewhat to the left. He would sometimes get lucky and block a shot with his legs. As strange as it may sound, I'm a fan of Hugo Gatti's goalkeeping but Ed was too odd to my liking.
     
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  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I think this is only true for 2004-05, when 5 of his 17 goals were penalties - though that is one of his better appraised seasons.

    In the rest of his career he has only three penalties (two in 1998-99, in his last Fortuna Sittard season - his 2nd best tally for the club).

    Never had a penalty for the national team, for Bayern, Milan or Barcelona. None of his 13 European/Champions League goals are penalties.

    8 of 95 career goals as penalty isn't an awful lot. A few of those were also drawn by himself (or his dive, if you want). It's possible to name a number of legends (including his hero Matthaus in his pomp, or Frank Lampard who he saw as the best midfielder of his generation) that are way more top heavy towards penalties.

    A profile from 2008 (when he was out of national team, thanks to the MvB/Cruyff clique) started it with this: "Mark van Bommel is a controversial sportsman. Opponents find him often irritating, while team-mates see in that 'irritating' a compliment."

    His reputation isn't helped by his last tournament and last season (played slightly further forward, often exposed), when father time, that is so unforgivable in football, had eaten him up.
     
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  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This is a nice one (February 2018):

    [​IMG]

    WhoScored shows Van Bommel with 2.1 fouls per match, 1.9 per match fouls against.

    In the Bundesliga he collected yellow cards at the same rate as a Ballack or Effenberg.

    Also think of things like this here:
    http://econweb.umd.edu/~pope/soccer_paper.pdf
    https://www.ntu.ac.uk/__data/assets...e-and-nationality-on-individual-decisions.pdf


    Can you say on what you have looked back to?

    Van Breukelen is 10 years his senior. I don't think their best years overlap that much.

    De Goey could appear awkward on and off the field, and his main nickname was "Ed Rabbit". That's not really a compliment.

    By traditionalists he had a good reputation between 1991 and 1994 (roughly) and he was made starting goalkeeper at the 1994 World Cup. The manager (Advocaat) was a bit of a traditionalist too, felt he was about as good as the others and - crucially - there had to be a balanced representation by each club or background.

    His reputation took a hit, that is still lasting, when he didn't look good at Brancos free kick in the 1994 quarter final. He said in the post-match interview he was happy to go home, and it is too warm.

    His last couple of Feyenoord seasons brought mixed opinions.

    Despite being 31 years old in 1997, he went to Chelsea as Britain's most expensive goalkeeper at that point. There he was a few times by the Chelsea fans voted as 'Chelsea player of the month', after an iffy start, including the last two months of 1997-98, and when Chelsea qualified for the first time ever for EC/CL football in 1998-99. The domestic quality paper called him "forgotten" in his home country, January 1999. 72 clean sheets in 179 games for Chelsea is a solid record.

    The 1998 CWC final was of course televised in the country, the Chelsea profile says "he made brilliant saves at crucial times in the League Cup and Cup Winners' Cup, both of which were won in that season", but I think it is right he was by 1996 largely overlooked. Except for that Branco free kick (of which it is questionable whether that free kick should have been given, with Branco admitting he dived and him committing a foul before that, but that's another thing).

    Clearly not a candidate for top 50 I think.
     
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  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yeah I think the same about it, and that there have been more talented footballers, more pleasing players (also Gio imho).

    I went looking around a bit after I noticed kicker was mixed on him, but there are also more positive pieces. Such as this by 11Freunde, placing it in context (google translate).


    "How important is Mark van Bommel?

    The FC Bayern Munich has again an asshole. And damn glad about it. For the alleged ruffian of the Bundesliga, Mark van Bommel, seems to be the figure with which to win the Munich title.

    The football player Mark van Bommel is an asshole. At least if you want to believe the people who do not like him. And there are many. Mark van Bommel, whose passport still adorns the pretty first names Peter, Gertruda and Andreas, has knocked out teammates with elbows, pinched the genitals, insulted referees, and derided opposing fans. His reputation as an asshole Mark van Bommel has worked hard.

    The human Mark van Bommel is certainly a very nice guy. An integrated sportsman with a sense of responsibility. Who works for his teammates, can talk with coaches and club officials at eye level, makes media a good job. That's why Jürgen Klinsmann certainly made him team captain in August 2008, so Louis van Gaal, after assuming office, certainly asked him if he would like to continue to perform this function. Mark van Bommel answered in the affirmative and meanwhile one can say: As team captain van Bommel is doing as well as his role as an asshole.

    A great leader, a nice asshole

    The comparison with Stefan Effenberg is so urgent in these days twice. Because even the "Tiger" was, especially in Munich, a great leader and asshole at the same time. That did not make him particularly popular with the majority of the population, but assured the FC Bayern München title. European titles. Ottmar Hitzfeld, who in Munich is something like the training savior, said in spring 2007 of Mark van Bommel: »He is an aggressive leader. Similar to Stefan Effenberg. «

    That's him again, the term "aggressive leader". It is quite possible that Mark van Bommel will soon ban this designation in accordance with his name. The public also makes it too easy. An aggressive leader who slays his opponent's main characters and verbally abuses, but at the same time leads his team through a 90-minute storm without even wavering - that sounds like a cheap dime novel from the First World War. But not like football.

    They all hopefully call him Gertruda

    Mark van Bommel (whom his friends are hoping to call all Gertruda) has proven to Manchester United that he is more than just an Effenberg coup. Van Bommel has understood the game as such, he has learned modern football at Eindhoven, Barcelona and now Bayern Munich and yet comes from another time. When he made his first games for Fortuna Sittard in 1992, the Libero was still considered a highly effective piece of equipment for a well-functioning football team, and even a midfield diamond has never been heard of in Holland. For van Gaal van Bommel has long become the central figure behind the explosive outside players Robben and Ribery. He should arrange, conduct, and, if necessary, sometimes look for the freedom that results against a world-class club like Manchester United.

    In his six-year stint at PSV Eindhoven, van Bommel has proven how dangerous his goals are - 46 goals in 169 games are impressive odds for a midfielder. Van Bommel has not put off his emphatically aggressive style in Munich, on the contrary, he seems to be one of the few footballers who wants to "make a mark" with tough duels. Also a relic from another time, as the duelists and Roy Keane and Stefan Effenberg are called.

    So it's very likely that Van Bommel's "Asshole Image" will stay attached for a long time. The Bavarians will not care, because international titles have not won a team that consisted of nothing but fair-play activists and model students.

    He is on the way to mess up his bad reputation

    However, Mark van Bommel, this man with the funny names from the funny country, this van Bommel is on his way to mess up his bad reputation: The "Vrijen Universiteit Amsterdam" has the footballer just a few days ago the Dutch Language Prize 2010 for presented his clear pronunciation in television interviews. From a purely technical point of view, the Bavarians are already part of the European elite: van Bommel coach and countryman Louis van Gaal was awarded a German language prize two weeks ago."

    https://www.11freunde.de/artikel/wie-wichtig-ist-mark-van-bommel


    I sort of liked this one, in terms of how they placed it. (One doesn't get appointed as first foreign team captain by Klinsmann/Hoeness just by sheer luck.)

    Let's move on now for the next in the list, who will be less controversial in terms of merit for a top 50... (will post profile maybe today, or coming days)
     
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  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Edgar Davids (1973, Paramaribo)

    "An hour into this tense stalemate between Juve and AC Milan [2003 CL final], before suffering an injury, Davids' outstanding performance was lauded by the BBC coverage as 'inspirational... hungrier and far more influential' than that of his compatriot Seedorf [and the other Milan midfielders, Nedved not available]"

    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Davids
    https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/edgar-davids-one-one
    https://www.revu.nl/artikel/vroeger-vrijdagedgar-davids-van-lefgozertje-naar-wereldster





    The pitbull, the shark, the piranha, heintje davids, the one man engine room. Which names haven't been made for him? He said: "I see the struggle for comparison as something positive."

    Although he doesn't like it to see it that way, it can be said Edgar Davids has Surinamese, Jewish and Dutch identities - he was raised and has connections to all of these circles. Born in Paramaribo, his parents went to the Netherlands 18 months later, just a few weeks before Suriname was made independent.

    He came through the Ajax system as a left winger but injury breaks and the surfacing of Marc Overmars meant he was redeployed in midfield. This was initially not well received by the raters, thinking he was played out of position, with his dribbling and winning of the ball at the same time. At hindsight it looks very strange that 'De Telegraaf' regularly rated him as the worst of his team, with the appendix "he doesn't belong there, he looks odd, his creativity is wasted." This turned around, with the match against Borussia Dortmund as an often recalled high point for Ajax (also by VI, in the top 50).

    Recognizable with his glasses, he became one of the more celebrated midfielders of his generation. The World Soccer chief editor named him in the summer of 1999 "the most outstanding all-round footballer" to be considered for elite club teams. He was included in Pelé's living footballers list (2004), the World Soccer top 100 footballers of the century, a regular nominee for UEFA's midfielder of the year, generally applauded by managers.

    His positive impact on various big teams, in particular the spell at Barcelona, is rarely doubted. This includes some occasional productive contribution in knock-out stages such as the 1997-98 UCL, the 1998 WC, the 1998-99 UCL (nutmeg assist against ManUnited in semis), euro 2000, the 2002-03 UCL. He provided a consistent and reliable platform for the likes of Zidane, Nedved and Ronaldinho. In that way he became a part of three semi finals with the national team and five European finals with his clubs, not to forget 6 league titles and 6 second places with four different teams.

    There are negatives, of course. First of all his drugs ban, as part of a dozen other Serie A players and 400 other athletes. A better informed Davids said later (2004) he started to distrust the leadership of Juventus at that point, which wasn't beneficial for the remainder of his career. Second: with three red cards for the national team he is the sole record holder. Make that to four, because of his insulting of manager Guus Hiddink at euro 1996. Third: he doesn't always come across well on camera (in that the opposite of Mark van Bommel), although there are certainly positive aspect on his punditry, and is not without feelings of remorse and then acting accordingly.

    He rated Roy Keane as his best opponent, in interesting match-ups, which is also in the FFT link above.

    More on Edgar Davids in this recent podcast:
    https://www.acast.com/barcelonalegacy/chelseavbarcelona2005

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3nujb3
    -----

    Next is the number one.
     
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  18. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Interesting. He was happy to go home ?!!!!!

    I was looking back at the 1990-94 period and it again reminded me of how I viewed it at that time, with him probably as the weakest link.
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Arie Haan (1948, Finsterwolde)

    [​IMG]




    (a pity that the video vs West Ham 1976 is deleted since that showed some solid and effective long passes by him)

    The student like, half intellectual Arie Haan had the reputation of a trouble maker and one of his best known remarks is: "In a hostile atmosphere I feel strong. (1976)" Arie Haan was part of two World Cup finals, but was forced to miss all but two games of euro 1976, because of his own strong will and - more so - because his club Anderlecht did not release him. His nicknames Arie Bombarie (arie mayhem), Haantje de Voorste (rooster the first) and Sluwe Arie (shrewd arie) refer to his reputation. To his defense: when Standard Liege was later punished for alleged/proven match-fixing, he was the only Standard player to not get punished, while he had stepped on a few toes through the years.

    At Anderlecht he had a more advanced role (vertically in the middle of three midfielders), and also when he returned for the national team (2 goals, 1 assist in 1978, 3.0 chances per game; 2 assists in 1980). He is though abroad best associated with Ajax, and the two long range goals at the 1978 World Cup (against Italy and West Germany). At Ajax he was generally the most restrained of the three midfielders, certainly without ball, thus he often is put down as a defensive midfielder.

    Haan made his European debut as a 2nd half substitute in the 1971 European Cup final, and scored the 2-0 late in the game. This was the start of a quite successful European career, with of his team mates only Cruijff playing more games than him (but ahead of Krol). With 9 UEFA medals he is at the same height as Paolo Maldini and Dani Alves, while he contested 11 UEFA final matches (two legged affairs are counted as one final; Haan featured in all the individual legs). Haan did this for three different teams. Together with his two silver medals for the national team (but not the bronze of 1976), that makes him one of the most decorated players of his country.

    (I'm expecting a comment by @annoyedbyneedoflogin on 'success isn't skill' now ;))


    *) The very first 1972 Supercup wasn't recognized by UEFA, thus doesn't count. Excluding the Supercup matches (with two legs counted as one game), he is third behind Gento and number two Maldini. Those Supercup games, played during the season, had arguably more status in his time than they have today. They got televised throughout Europe, and demonstrably influenced some Ballon d'Or lists too.

    ----

    Goalkeepers:

    Frans de Munck (1922, Goes)
    Hans van Breukelen (1956, Utrecht)
    Jan van Beveren (1948, Amsterdam)
    Edwin van der Sar (1970, Voorhout)

    Defenders:

    Danny Blind (1961, Vlissingen)
    Harry Denis (1896, The Hague)
    Giovanni van Bronckhorst (1975, Rotterdam)
    Cor van der Hart (1928, Amsterdam)
    Rinus Israel (1942, Amsterdam)
    Frank de Boer (1970, Hoorn)
    Ruud Krol (1949, Amsterdam)
    Jaap Stam (1972, Kampen)
    Ronald Koeman (1963, Zaandam)
    Frank Rijkaard (1962, Amsterdam)

    Defensive midfielders:

    Wim Jansen (1946, Rotterdam)
    Mark van Bommel (1977, Maasbracht)
    Edgar Davids (1973, Paramaribo)
    Arie Haan (1948, Finsterwolde)
     
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  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  21. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    I thought that Neeskens would be the highest rated by VI. But, despite Haan's success, I actually rate him highly. He could do a bit of everything, also with his left foot. So "Total football" at 6.

    Can we expect a separate category for numbers 8? Or is Neeskens omitted?
     
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  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yeah, Haan can be among the central or attacking midfielders too, but he's best associated with Ajax and when it was all done he had played the majority of his finals as the deepest midfielder. The 'top 500' book says:

    "Arie Haan emerged himself at Ajax as a water carrier and hoover in midfield. Haan was a tactically strong player [...]. It is true he could appear slow, but he possessed an effective technique and a good pass. [....] Nonetheless he was at Anderlecht, Standard Liege and PSV always a significant piece in the midfield. Haan liked to be one of the leaders, he also radiated that with his swinging but slow-ish style of movement. At his best he had good style with good insight and an excellent kicking technique, but came a bit short to be a real star. [...] He made himself at no place popular and doesn't receive the appreciation that he better deserves on the grounds of his qualities, his successes and even the robustness of his character."


    Of course Neeskens is not ommitted, he has a too good story and profile, and was with his 'seal dribbles' relatively skillful too (story: for ex. one of the main actors behind Barcelona's first big UEFA trophy, despite domestically struggling).

    Neeskens is for the central midfielders, but not for the very top there.
     
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  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Not bad for someone who entered the club in 1967 as an unpaid amateur ;) Made his debut only two years later and European debut in 1971. His problematic image is also an interesting thing, since the it is often said too that he was an office boy for the senior members.

    https://www.ad.nl/wk-2018/waar-zijn-de-afstandsschoten~a8319772/
    https://www.menterwolde.info/nieuws...t-over-carriere-bij-club-van-100-v.v.-meeden/
    https://www.dbnl.org/tekst/vos_084ajac01_01/vos_084ajac01_01_0004.php
     
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  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Central midfielders

    Philip Cocu (1970, Eindhoven)

    [​IMG]





    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...n-Gaal-s-beat-Manchester-United-boss-PSV.html
    http://dutchsoccersite.org/congratulations-to-phillip-cocu/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_Cocu

    Born on the very same day as Edwin van der Sar, he was another one to occasionally get discussed in "underrated" terms. By pundits like Alan Hansen, but also by fans domestically and abroad, to the extent that even the FIFA website called him an "underrated footballer". The BBC called him in 2000 "the most underrated player of the tournament", which might be too much, but illustrates well enough in which terms he was mentioned. Philip Cocu was a jack of all trades, who scored goals as a center forward at the 1998 World Cup, but is best associated with a central midfield role. At the very start of his career he was a skinny wing player, but suffered a leg break that halted his progress, and affected his foot-speed quite a bit.

    Even though he received consistently good to very good grades during his early days at Vitesse, he might be called a late bloomer, eventually becoming one of the very oldest outfield players to appear for the national team. He planned to retire at euro 2004, but since he was sub-par there he continued and did much better in 2006, firing his shot on the crossbar against Portugal as a 35 years and 7 months old.

    When he was available he always played for Oranje, between the match against France in 1996 and the game against Portugal in 2006: 96 consecutive starts for the national team is only bettered by Van der Sar, and also remarkable is that he only missed 19 games between his first and last match (for comparison: the goalkeeper VDS missed already 27 matches, Robben missed 91 games). Dennis Bergkamp said in the February 2005 edition of FourFourTwo for his 'Perfect XI': "He doesn't always get a lot of compliments in Holland and people sometimes question why he's in the national team. But I believe he is a vital player. He cleans up the mess in the team and covers other players' backs. He also scores goals and I would certainly want a team where goals can come from all over the park." His return to PSV as a veteran was seen as a huge success, and he ended his career on a high note.

    For a decade he was the foreigner with the most league and overall appearances for Barcelona, but has since been surpassed by two players called Messi and Dani Alves (just a year before Alves left the club).

    Though he was arguably a very good player rather than a great one, as a player he found appreciation by the time he hang up his boots and had for many a pleasing style (just like 'Gio': maybe exactly because he was skinny).

    @annoyedbyneedoflogin
     
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  25. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    I can understand Cocu being on the list. His biggest problem was probably having Davids as competition, leading to NT lineups where Cocu was played out of position.
    However, IMO, what Rijkaard did for Ajax, Cocu did for PSV.
     
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