Dutch footballer of the year press classification 1979-1994

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I rate Platini higher as you know but in this respect it is also telling that Cruijff (at Ajax) urged him to become a midfielder. Van Basten played with #6 quite a few times. Also his father wanted that he would be transformed into a midfielder.
    Maybe you recall the Football Greatest episode where it was mentioned how his father pressed him to stay at the attack during his youth; well, his father had changed his mind in the mid 80s.

    But Van Basten was stubborn (in the eyes of Cruijff and his father) and insisted to be lined up as forward or striker. He took it as a defeat and whatever his father or Cruijff said to him, he wanted to remain a striker.

    In the eyes of Cruijff the club needed him in midfield but also they thought he would last longer ("preventing that you become injury prone before it is too late" said Cruijff).

    His father said literally: "Playing as striker during your youth is good for your development but as senior professional it is better to play in midfield, for your health and for your game."

    Cruijff thought at that time as well that midfielders come "in the modern game" more frequently in scoring positions as forwards/strikers.

    Only when it was too late, in 1991, he started to speculate about a drop towards midfield.

    He indeed noticed a change at October 1992. He saw how the sweeper became more attacking orientated and did not only stay behind as 'emergency solution'. Referees started to punish sweepers who knocked the forward/striker down when the forward had escaped his marker. The so called "emergency brake" (as last resort of backline through a sweeper) was punished heavier and this in turn stimulated sweepers to join the attack a bit more, or at least contribute a bit more in the build up.
    He noticed how this made playing a bit easier because if you beat your marker (stopper or side-back) then the sweeper is not solely pre-occupied with knocking the forward down at all costs. They had more responsibilities and therefore the forward had more of a chance.
    Also the marker started to behave differently as a result.

    He also saw how some sides got rid of the sweeper at all. I.e. if the sweeper cannot execute his job why playing with a sweeper? "And if you do not play with a sweeper at all it is only a small step to play a zonal system without designated markers like Jurgen Köhler", he said.

    This are the GPG in Serie A from 1984 to 1999:

    1982/1983: 2.10
    1983/1984: 2.39
    1984/1985: 2.10
    1986: 2.06
    1987: 1.93

    1988: 2.10
    1989: 2.11
    1990: 2.24
    1991: 2.29
    1992: 2.27
    1993: 2.80

    1994: 2.42
    1995: 2.53
    1996: 2.63
    1997: 2.64
    1998: 2.75
    1999: 2.76
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks, yeah I think I'd seen those GPG stats and remembered vaguely what they were. The back-pass rule came in at the start of 92/93 IIRC though I wouldn't expect that had a huge effect - only that 'time-wasting' could be a bit reduced; plus a few occasions where the defender ends up giving the ball away under pressure I suppose.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This are three goals he scored in the one and a half months before he damaged his ankle.


    [unfortunately, it does not show his involvement in the build up from the deep, with a clearance from the back and a one-two pass and it does not show too the dummy that started the run]

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ivi6VuaSk_k#t=299s
    [4:59]




    I also find the Football Greatest episode dealing with him one of the better ones. Together with, from the back of my mind, the one of George Best and Ronaldo one of the better profiles I think.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  5. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    I am just back now.

    So, that is a great statistical analysis then and very help me to complie datas that I plan to establish 3 threads here in the near future (Top 50 Domestic Club Footballers, Top 50 International Club Footballer and Top 50 National Team footballer).

    Yes, I agree football rating is way subjective and I just try to make it most objective with all details and datas as possible. Consequently, the scale of level (likes phenomenon-class, world-class, international-class) is inevitably essential to manage with individual statistics for players ranking. I agree kicker has some seasons rating to be questionable likes Gerd Muller and I'm not apply it all though.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    By the way, the Brazilian Ronaldo, who had in your eyes a "phenomenal season" in 1997-98, wasn't the best rated striker of Serie A either.
    http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=261017

    In the dbscalcio database and also at other sources he was surpassed (and outscored too) by Bierhoff. Not a single source has him down as best rated striker and some even have him on 3th or 4th place.

    Anyhow, I don't believe in such classifications but discrepancies like that happen. Ronaldo won almost Ballon d'Or in 1998 (surpassed by WC-winner Zidane) and was in the eyes of many the best player in the world at that time. Yet not among the best rated players or the best rated striker.

    Just as comparison.

    Nobody doesn't question his credentials either. You see him as "phenomenal" in that year, which is fine.

    That magazine was founded and dominated by Bayern Munich people though. It is more likely that they overrate Bayern players than the other way around.
    But that is not what I meant: I meant that ratings in general are sometimes strange.
     
  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
     
  8. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Do you have any information of the other Jan Peters(Feyenoord)? He briefly moved to the Hong Kong league in the 1980's. I just wanted to mknow more about him.
     
  9. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Well It seemed you forgot we had this same discussion a while back (in Zico/Maradona vs Platini in SerieA by dbcalcio)! Regardless you believe them in rating or not, Ronaldo indeed WON the BEST SERIEA player of the year 1998 :

    Serie A Footballer of the Year

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    The Serie A Footballer of the Year (Italian: Migliore calciatore assoluto) is a yearly award organized by the Italian Footballers' Association (AIC) given to the footballer who has been considered to have performed the best over the previous Serie A season.
    The award is elected among the winner of the Best Italian Footballer and the winner of the Best Foreign Footballer compete for the Best Footballer in absolute.
    The award is part of the "Oscar del Calcio" awards event and was considered the most prestigious football award in Italy.
    [edit]

    Winners

    YearPlayerClub
    1997 [​IMG] Roberto Mancini Sampdoria
    1998 [​IMG] Ronaldo Internazionale
    1999 [​IMG] Christian Vieri Lazio
    2000 [​IMG] Francesco Totti Roma
    2001 [​IMG] Zinedine Zidane Juventus
    ========================================


    Like I said, every rating source had their own pros and cons, logic or not ... in their own view. DBCALCIO might have rated based on the NUMBER OF GOALS (which Bierhoff had more 27 than Ronaldo 25) - well depends on how people think it's right or wrong, but ONE THING is clear: 30% of Ronaldo 25goals for Inter were sheer his own talent (created and finished by himself) while 30% of Bierhoff goals were TAP INS (created by his team) - so yeah, based on strictly the NUMBER< Ronaldo was not the "top striker" (different from the best) but clearly he was a FENOMENON in serieA that year ... he turned upside down the likes Thuram, Nesta Maldini Canavaro Ferrara .... so that..

    Maldini had already made the claim: "Ronaldo was the most difficult player he has ever duel with since last Maradona"

    In that year, many many had no doubt he was the best and would win his 3rd WPOY and 2nd Ballon Dor that year ... before the WC event!

    In the contrast, OPTA STATS rated Roanldo WC2002 as the best since 1966 - well which is also another very debatable rating criteria and weighing system! Just like dbcalcio in other side of 1998.


    In other words, compare Bierhoff to Ronaldo 98 were like comparing Van Persie/Villa to Messi!
     
  10. Dearman

    Dearman Member

    Argentina
    Feb 24, 2010
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Nat'l Team:
    Thailand
    Those works of mine are actually outdate. Anyway, I have updated many in my own database, includes cancelling Ronaldo's phehomenon-class in the 1997 - 1998, but still not show it anywhere. In the current status, I name him in the well-known superb 1996 - 1997 season as phenomenon-class since I upgrade supreme world-class to higher upper limit of range base on legends standard.

    As I saw kicker rating, Seeler (Hambruge SV) seems to be overrated for his seven world-class season when look at combined standard of oberliga with his seasonal goal statistics. In contrary, Muller is just rated in 4.5 world-class, is at least not underrated base on his legend status. Sepp Maier, one of the top legendary goalkeepers is also rated in only 3 world-class.
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    PDG1978

    I uploaded two goals against Feyenoord from my own collection. One is posted above but now in full scene.




    Maybe I will post some more in the future. Also saw a "Laudrup croqueta" passing by if you remember that trademark trick.
     
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  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Found the ratings for Ronaldo in the first half of the 1994/1995 season for PSV, when he was still young of course. After he played his last match before the winter-break the topscorers list was this:

    1. Ronaldo (PSV) 11
    2. Kluivert (Ajax) 10
    2. Van Hooijdonk (NAC) 10

    With as sidenote that NAC played one game less and Ajax three games less as PSV (which had played 16 rounds until that point in time). Ajax also used a lot of rotations in the squad but their mid season ratings will be posted in another post.

    Ronaldo (between parentheses how the grade related to his team-mates):

    Vitesse - PSV 2:4 1 goal - 7 (highest)
    PSV - Go Ahead 4:1 2 goals - 7 (highest)
    PSV - Dordrecht 4:0 - 6 (lowest)
    Sparta - PSV 1:1 1 goal - 6 (2nd lowest)
    PSV - Heerenveen 3:1 1 goal (PK) - 5 (2nd lowest)
    PSV - Ajax 1:4 - 6 (2nd lowest)
    Willem II - PSV 2:1 - 6 (2nd highest)
    PSV - Groningen 5:0 1 goal - 6 (3rd lowest)
    Roda - PSV 3:0 - 6 (highest)
    Utrecht - PSV 1:2 1 goal - 7 (2nd highest)
    PSV - MVV 4:0 2 goals - 7 (2nd highest)
    Volendam - PSV 0:0 - 6 (2nd lowest)
    PSV - Feyenoord 4:1 2 goals (1PK) - 7 (highest)
    Twente - PSV 2:2 - 6 (2nd lowest)
    PSV - RKC 2:2 - 4 (lowest)

    15 games, 11 goals (2PK) - average rating: 6.13

    He was 17-18 years old though (born 18 September 1976).
     
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  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    'Golden' Ajax team 1994-95 average rating (first 15 rounds - winter break)

    Rijkaard 7.00 (rated at 13 games)
    Blind 6.71 (14 games)
    Seedorf 6.58 (12 games)
    R. de Boer 6.53 (13 games)
    Litmanen 6.50 (14 games)
    Van der Sar 6.46 (15 games)
    Kluivert 6.42 (7 games)
    F. de Boer 6.40 (15 games)
    Reiziger 6.33 (15 games)
    Overmars 6.20 (10 games)
    Van Vossen 6.12 (8 games)
    George 6.08 (12 games)
    Davids 6.08 (13 games)


    Van den Brom 6.33 (3 games)
    Kanu 6.33 (3 games)


    End of season winner at 94/95 was Danny Blind.
     
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  14. Lucas...

    Lucas... Member+

    Dec 18, 2012
    Great thread. Ronaldo was impressive for someone so young...
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes. Highest rated PSV players were btw Luc Nillis (Ronaldo has said that he was the best partner to play with isn't it?) and Numan after 16 rounds.

    Forgot to add that Rijkaard probably lost the end of season award by missing too many league games (played 26 games of 34 - before winter break as everyone can see he played 13 out of 15 games).

    Blind on the other hand played in all 34 league games and won the end of season award.

    Noteworthy is the case of Seedorf: he scored as 18 years old player two times an 8 as grade but also three times a 5 as grade (his second, third and ninth game; 12 grades in total).

    Overmars scored incredibly well in the preceding seasons but not in this one because he struggled with injuries, which would happen quite often in his career (and the question is whether he ever fully recovered; was voted by international press as best young player of 1994WC).
     
  16. Lucas...

    Lucas... Member+

    Dec 18, 2012
    About Romario and the way the people viewed, is not much different than in other places.

    Cruyff always praises and says it was one of the best players with whom he has worked, but he didn't like the fact that Romario score many goals in a single match and spend two / three without scoring any goals.

    It's similar (just) with Cristiano Ronaldo today, which often has more than three goals per game than Messi, but the argentine has always more goals because scored in all matches.
     
  17. Lucas...

    Lucas... Member+

    Dec 18, 2012
    Me based on statistics from Wikipedia:
    Seedorf in three seasons at Ajax: 65 matches, 11 goals in League.
    In Brasileirão 2012, he scored 8 goals in 22 matches and in this year, in State Championship, has scored 4 goals in 4 matches hahaha
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Seedorf has given an interview recently. He said that Brasil league is more open than Serie A but also that it suits him very well, he is a good fit.

    About that Ajax team he said that many players reached an incredible high level, had a big surplus in quality. "Ajax does not receive an European trophy as a gift". He said too that they back then still played in the 'old' stadium instead of the Arena and that it had therefore a different atmosphere, he seemed to suggest that it was a better atmosphere.





    Don't know where the post it but also found this recently, the market value (estimated by foreigners) of the Orange players shortly before the successful euro88 campaign started. It made the newspapers because the total value exceeded 100 million which was seen as an absurd amount of money. Perhaps good to share. This was the estimated value from high to low, in Dutch guilders (not factoring in special stipulations and clauses in contracts):

    Gullit 25 million (estimated as most expensive player in the world)
    R. Koeman 15 million
    Vanenburg 12 million
    Rijkaard 9 million
    Van Basten 5 million
    Bosman 5 million
    Kieft 3 million
    Van 't Schip 2.7 million
    Van Tiggelen 2.7 million
    Van Aerle 2.7 million
    Wouters 2.7 million
    E. Koeman 2.7 million
    Winter 2.7 million

    Low market value of Van Basten was because the raters estimated, based on medical information, that he had 2 years left to play. His physical state was a big uncertainty and dragged the price down, mentioned the newspapers.
     
  19. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I think Van Basten did right to follow his 'instinct" and became among the best fowards in history.
    If he listened to Cruijff, I am not sure he woudl become as "famous" as he is now ... (note many more legends in TOP25 were attacking midfielders than forward/striker)

    Similar to Ronaldo case, that he dreamt to be (or play) like Zico (AM/playmaker) but finally he made his own path to become among the greatest FW/striker
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Same source as mentioned in the starting post made a sort of ranking at the end of the 1972/1973 season. They did not give grades but 'stars'. The inspiration was the famous Michelin guide for restaurants. And just as restaurants, they argue, they look at consistency, variety, creativity, 'value for money', 'flavor' but also is the 'level' defined by how the player performed in comparison with past seasons (i.e. did they reach their top level, in their opinion).

    They looked at performances for league, European club fixtures, cup matches and national team games - basically everything. Again, it is nothing more than an overall impression, albeit an informed one.

    Note: source is based in Amsterdam.


    Three stars:
    Hulshoff, Keizer, Krol, Neeskens

    Two stars:
    Blankenburg, Brokamp, Cruijff, G. Mühren, Haan, Rep, Schilcher, Schneider, Schrijvers, Stuy, Suurbier, Van Beveren, R. Van de Kerkhof, Van Hanegem

    One star:
    De Vries, Doesburg, Graaumans, Heijerman, Israel, Jansen, Janssens, Jeuring, Mansveld, Pahlplatz, Ressel, Swart, Van Ierssel
     
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  21. havoc33

    havoc33 Member

    Jan 27, 2011
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Why was Gullit banned?

    Great thread by the way, many thanks.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    For an alleged elbow during a corner-kick.


    It was never caught on camera (so sorry for the lack of better images) and the so called "UEFA observer" failed to see what happened (who used to be the secondary key witness, next to the referee). He was banned based on what the referee noticed. PSV also received a fine of 50000 Swiss Francs.
    The red card happened in the 29th minute, at a 2:0 advantage for PSV.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @PDG1978

    So a year after Voetbal International made their top 100, they also made a top 50 for only the Netherlands. I'm personally not too happy with all the inclusions or some ordering but I guess that's inevitable. It does give overall a nice birds eye view of all those years and in that way I can understand some choices.

    Let's start with the goalkeepers.


    Frans de Munck

    [​IMG]

    The javelin thrower stood out with his throws of the ball. Under dry circumstances he was able to throw the ball over the halfway line without much trouble, and did so accurately.
    His handsome appearance, taste for fashion, sidesteps as acting in movies and radio plays, and some quirky events (getting acquainted with Jayne Mansfield, then kissing her in front of the cameras - see picture) made him a well-known figure.
    The FA blocked transfers to various rivals, as well as sabotaging a transfer to FC Barcelona. He landed at FC Cologne, playing for large crowds, and was their first ever foreign player as well as the first foreigner to appear in the Oberliga. That is where he got his nickname 'the black panther' (a mistranslated version of Die Schwarze Katze). He won the competition against the 25-years old Herkenrath, who two years later was installed as the starting goalkeeper for the German national team. It is sometimes incorrectly said he was chosen as goalkeeper of the century and many of his greatest triumphs came after his prime. Until the age of 19 he was a forward, but chronic knee problems saw him re-appear as a goalkeeper.


    Hans van Breukelen

    [​IMG]

    Often seen - despite his considerable reflexes and reaction speed at his prime - as the classic case of someone who compensated a lack of talent and elegance with character, unstoppable self-assertion and a big presence. Saved a number of penalties at several big moments. During and after his career often the subject of mockery. Here an appreciative column for him. Was a worthy replacement for the departing Peter Shilton at Nottingham Forest.


    Jan van Beveren


    [​IMG]

    Graceful and elegant goalkeeper who immediately stands out on video. The first one million guilders player was aptly titled the 'butterfly of the sixteen'. Although perhaps he wasn't as good as with his feet as the ideal type, he was in fact above the standard of his time, and even more so with regards to the tendency to leave his line. Actual research has shown that of various 1970s and 1980s goalkeepers only Rinat Dasaev had a higher tendency to leave his line, and was highly successful too (in the top group of three).
    Didn't play too many caps because "the organization was garbage." Was sadly injured for the 1974 World Cup, and with his measured but assured personality he often clashed with other Amsterdam born figures. About this he said in 2011: "Above all: I have a sincere admiration for the person Johan Cruijff and his range of talents, let that be clear. Never I played against with and against a better footballer. But it was soon obvious he wanted to be a boss and thought in terms of influence and control. For me that was incomprehensible and unsympathetic."


    Edwin van der Sar

    [​IMG]

    After the backpass rule the first of the modern sweeper keeper, at least at Champions League and international level. Made assists early in his career (euro 1996) as well as very late (2011, still the oldest player to assist a goal in the Premier League). As such he was the benchmark, even sometimes idol, of later generations in goal. Penalties were initially a weakness of him, but became later a renowned strength.
    The gimmick with the ball sometimes overshadows his competence in the primary ability of a keeper: making saves, where he is statistically among the best (e.g. clean sheets at various levels and for various teams, even Juventus and Fulham; saves per goal conceded). Some of his personal favorite matches came as a Fulham player, for example this one.
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  25. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    @PuckVanHeel
    Very nice thread. Any conclusions (gregoriakstyle etc) from the rankings of this period?
     

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