Dutch footballer of the year press classification 1979-1994

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #401 PuckVanHeel, Nov 26, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
    Sorry for the belated reply but I also see now I said it to you when he was still not retired (retired in 2014). He received some sympathy points for what he did in Brazil (instead of, say, playing in the Arab sandbox), fitting in his career of stepping out of comfort zones and familiar paths (as is said too in the 'Football's Greatest' episode about him). That generated sympathy, but overall the situation is still the same, and indeed from what I've seen some disagreed with VI's ranking incl. their own editors (while Pelé, for what's worth, ranked him among the best living footballers..).


    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/nov/23/the-joy-of-six-unlikely-football-career-twilights

    https://www.planetfootball.com/nostalgia/clarence-seedorf-brazil-perfect-swansong-football-utopia/


    Another great example - a better example - is VdSar going to Manchester United at the age of 34 and 8 months, rather than petering out at Fulham and so on (although he had some great games vs the title contenders there). Instead, he became remembered as an early/earliest example of the modern sweeper keeper (at CL and international level), the only goalkeeper to win the CL with two different teams, and great stats (clean sheets, goals conceded, saves per goal) for every team he played for (even Juventus, national team)....
     
  2. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    [​IMG]

    I found this in a Voetbal International magazine from August 1972.
    So their ratings go a few years farther back... or is that known already?
     
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  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @PDG1978

    Because WvH is about to turn 75 they showed an interesting video on sunday (45 minutes) that exclusively consists of archive material, with also many footballing scenes.

    I thought it might be something for you, too.

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x72neag

    It remains peculiar he's in his own country (in my opinion rightly so) rated much higher than abroad. Even the majority of older Ajax supporters (70%+) would say he was 'better' than Neeskens, and that's saying something for an opinionated region.



    My brief write-up:
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/du...cation-1979-1994.1978389/page-6#post-37047898
     
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  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, it's difficult in a way because I am 'guilty' of the same perceptions (maybe guilty is the wrong word but you know what I mean I guess!). That looks a nice piece (especially for Dutch viewers who will understand what is said and follow the story etc) and I scanned through for some footage and noticed some nice composure/skill around 12 minutes when he goes round the goalkeeper and defender for example. It seems composure and awareness were good assets of his to me - plus vision and precision of passing, and physically he was strong of course.

    Looking at the brief build-up to the Jansen goal vs Milan (impressive move and goal overall I'd say!) maybe WvH's body seems a bit more 'reactive' in his younger days which would not be surprising, and so I guess a lot of Dutch old-timers may think of that (and did in real time) when assessing things.

    I think you prefer me to be honest (while saying "my view could still be wrong") and that way I guess you know it's my true feeling when I do start to see things more like you always did (eg Rijkaard being 'better' all things considered than a Vieira or a Sammer, when I might have been a bit more 50/50 on that before, being a bit younger in his prime although seeing some of his impressive displays at Euro 88 as defender and still having a good idea of him as box to box player for Milan). And of course for some Dutch legends/stars (notably Cruyff, but also for example Rensenbrink) I erred always more on the high side in terms of rating them compared to average fans/historians or whatever I guess. This comparison is anyway two Dutch players of course.

    I suppose one thing can be to 'modern eyes' Van Hanegem's mobility and agility on the ball might be questionable, while Neeskens doesn't seem inferior to modern midfield players in those respects maybe. I think another thing can be that International fans/journalists might consider positional/role comparisons worldwide and conclude that Neeskens compares very well to most box to box players (like Tardelli maybe, or Robson, plus perhaps more recently Gerrard before he moved to AM - maybe Neeskens can seem more use for a team than he was in his earlier Liverpool days). While there are a lot of playmaking midfielders (if that's how we class WvH) to contend with. Similarly in Italy Rivera is (sometimes/variably) picked out above all countrymen, but Internationally Franco Baresi stands out more among the very best defenders than Rivera does among the very best number 10s if we call him that.

    But I guess there is a lot of impressive footage of WvH not seen by modern eyes too. And ultimately maybe actually making ratings of players (even based on prime form) is not as straightforward as we like to try to think - yes we can suggest values for FM attributes, and posters on here can also take a long-term career achievement kind of perspective, but maybe it's easier to appreciate the players without trying to be definitive about "this guy was for sure better than this guy" only for others to argue "no, clearly this guy was better, you're wrong" kind of thing. Of course when we make our lists and make consensus results (like on my old thread) it can be interesting at least to gauge opinions and perspectives. But yeah, I guess a Xavi or a Pirlo can perhaps also seem a bit more agile (or to turn a bit sharper/smoother - especially Xavi) in terms of deeper lying playmakers, but I know the Dutch vs World difference between 'ranking' for Neeskens and WvH doesn't only relate to the modern game.

    Hope this makes sense anyway - as you tagged me I thought it would be better if I wrote something rather than just repping you!
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @PDG1978

    No problem of course to see things different. I also say it when you rate Dutch (and Belgian) figures too high in my opinion, as you know. We respect each others explanation for things and margin for error.

    As spotted, Neeskens himself had a few comments on him past week:



    https://www.foxsports.nl/video/3024669/fox-sports-doc-ode-aan-kromme/#


    This was Neeskens his contribution (on the radio too):

    "It was a natural talent he had. The footballing capacity, the intellect, reading the play as it happens, when slow and when to go fast. Yes, you can talk about this but you have to possess it. I don't think he had it when he was 25 or 26, no in his case he just had it."

    "That he can recognize the match and the moment, and of course with his technique. Because not every player can play the ball with the outside of the boot over 30, 40 meters. He could. If you see enough images of him, also for the national team, then he is sometimes surrounded by multiple opponents and still knows instinctively the solution. I experienced this when playing against him but also with him, that's why he belonged to the best players of the country."

    "He had also a fantastic free kick. I don't understand why he did not take them more often. Because he curled it from all distances around the wall. Yeah too many free kicks he didn't do. I don't know why, maybe I'll ask when I see him."

    "He was all-in, at home on all markets, but also sober and normal. He never demonstrated his own achievements. He preferred to keep a distance, but if he had to do something and take initiative yes then you see a personality. With also his emotional weaknesses."

    [on his games in the European Cup]: "Anyway, that is his great class, that he knows when it has to be sped up and when the tempo has to be taken out. And yes, taking the tempo out, if he is on the ball and keeps it for a moment, and you can't dispossess him immediately, then he can take care of more peace in the play. That takes maybe the opponent with him, and then he has also the footballing might to instantly fasten the play. Not many footballers of that time could really do that well throughout and partly because of that Feyenoord had those successes against more favored teams as Milan and Celtic."

    "I came to the Ajax first team when I was eighteen. Yes then I already knew his status, I had a great respect for him, and if you had then to play against him you try to look well and prevent you get belittled all around. Thus for me it was a very good motivation and impetus to measure myself for a tiny bit with him."

    "For me it was always fantastic... an honor to play against him, with him. One of the best ever footballers in this country."

    "Then I ran, as he said it, against him. Later he said 'sorry, that is also my way of running, I walk as a waggling duck'. Nonsense in my opinion. That is a moment where you want to engage the duel too hasty and wild, then it is briefly a slight 'tap', and the images weren't so sharp back then with eight cameras. You don't see it and the referee neither. Then you go inside the dressing room, and you stand in the tunnel again to go outside and he consoles me like 'and boy, are you all right? sorry, I just walk and move like that'. So yes that is typical Willem. Strong, big, sometimes merciless in the air and in the duels, but also truly a heart of gold and with natural personality to execute his emotions."

    "If you see all those players yes then you had to finish consistently high. We had some issues with the goalkeeper and defense, also some other problems, but we played well and the rest of the world still talks about this team in the wider picture of the development of football."

    "I think Willem recognized a team with Johan makes at many levels a big difference. Johan very much respected Willem his footballing qualities and authentic personality, and knew he as leading Feyenoord figure was needed to make work of the national team."

    "He missed the pure speed over the first few meters and although I have seen him scoring goals with his right, that foot could have been better. My weaker foot was more developed I think."

    "He has to be seen as number one. Normally the best, most defining footballer Feyenoord had since the war. By a margin in my eyes. Feyenoord has much to thank. I don't want to malign the other good footballers, technical players, Feyenoord had, they have a few, but for me he sticks out. Let us be honest, he doesn't only have six great years at Feyenoord but was also almost topscorer at Xerxes, second youth and resurgence at AZ, showed it for the national team. Thus... if you see his accomplishments then there are few who come close to that."
     
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  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Sorry that I missed this.

    Yes I already knew but it is hard to track down. I need to go to the national library for that. It is also used in some pieces and biographies. For example WvH (biography 2007) his best seasons are 1967 - 1971, 1972 - 1975. In some of them like 1967-68, 1970-71 he was at/near the top (although 1970-71 saw JC14 dsq because of injury). Because of eye problems he wasn't a great veteran player I believe.
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #407 PuckVanHeel, Feb 24, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
    @PDG1978 @comme @Tom Stevens

    As an aside, when searching for the Dukla Prague articles I came across something relatively remarkable (something I wasn't aware of). I knew he did these type of things (and his first contribution to VI in 1967 was a peculiar one as we've seen) but not already this early.


    An article from 9 may 1966:

    [​IMG]

    "Johan Cruyff - how old is he himself one wonders - teaches the youth. It happened Saturday at Ajax, which held its first ever outreach for the youngsters. Anyone who loves football can demonstrate his abilities. The first day the best was already a resounding success. One hundred and fifty boys showed up, demonstrating their presence or absence of talent in four fields at the same time, in matches of 2 X 20 minutes. Ajax trainers and a few contract players watched and held the organizational hand in the case. "We have selected thirty boys for the time being. This month we will repeat this every Saturday. A resounding success, this first meeting ", according to Ajax praeses Jaap van Praag."

    https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:011204723:mpeg21:p008

    Another newspaper (one of the highest reputation) also spoke of "first team player Johan Cruyff giving some theoretical and practical counsels."
    https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:011237494:mpeg21:p013

    Fairly remarkable, or as we say here: "learned when young is done when old."


    Less than eight years later the 'neutrals' of Sports Illustrated was taking stock:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    https://www.si.com/vault/issue/43245/79
     
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  8. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Really like the title of this article :cool:
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    One thing I like about him is that he approached free kicks in a different way. As Neeskens says above, he somehow did not take many direct ones, but he has a few big ones nevertheless.

    The run-up, body language and kick for the following free kicks are different (with the wall not too far away):

    Free kick #1
    Free kick #2
    Free kick #3

    Plus, he was beating some renowned goalkeepers there :) (all in away matches). I'm not trying to convert you, lol, but thought it's good to explain myself and such.
     
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  10. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    I have some VI Team of the Season/Final avg. ratings to share
    1st number are games, 2nd the rating

    1991/92

    XI

    Van Breukelen (32 7.00)
    Van Aerle (23 6.39) Jonk (26 6.85) Metgod (34 6.62) Heus (29 6.52)
    Bosz (33 6.88) Popescu (29 6.79) Valke (34 6.74)
    Taument (31 6.84) Kieft (33 6.85) Decheiver (24 6.58)

    Some other players:

    Ajax
    Blind 30 6.37
    De Boer 30 6.27
    Winter 30 6.23
    Bergkamp 30 6.40
    Davids 9 6.11

    FC Twente

    Ronaldo de Boer 33 5.52

    Feyenoord
    De Goeij 34 6.88
    Witschge 30 5.63

    PSV
    Van Tiggelen 26 6.08
    Heintze 29 6.28
    Romario 14 6.21
     
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  11. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    1992/93

    XI

    De Goey (33 6.97)
    De Kock (33 6.45) De Wolf (28 6.50) Metgod (34 6.50) Van Tiggelen (28 6.50)
    Bosz (27 6.52) Laamers (34 6.41) Van Mol (34 6.44) Numan (24 6.50)
    Cocu (34 6.50) Meijer (33 6.45)

    Ajax
    Van der Sar 19 6.26
    Blind 28 6.07
    Jonk 23 6.30
    Frank de Boer 33 5.91
    Bergkamp 28 6.14
    Overmars 34 6.00
    Davids 28 5.50
    Ronald de Boer 15 5.27
    Litamanen 9 6.00
    Seedorf 7 5.43

    PSV
    Van Breukelen (25 6.64)
    Popescu (24 6.04)
    Romario (26 5.81)
    Koeman (19 6.32)
    Kieft (25 5.84)
    Heintze (24 5.42)
     
  12. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    1993/94

    XI
    De Goey (34 6.94)
    Blind (30 6.67) Werdekker (28 6.64) Rijkaard (30 6.57) Frank de Boer (34 6.41)
    Pettersson (30 6.63) Feskens (29 6.52) Lokhoff (32 6.72) Van der Luer (34 6.41)
    Finidi (27 6.81) Van Hooydonk (31 6.48)

    Ajax
    Van der Sar (32 6.38)
    Litmanen (30 6.33)
    Ronald de Boer (27 6.04)
    Overmars (34 6.03)
    Davids (15 5.73)
    Seedorf (17 5.59)
     
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  13. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    1994/95

    XI
    Van der Sar (33 6.64)
    De Kock (31 6.58) Rijkaard (26 6.62) Blind (33 6.61) Van Tiggelen (31 6.55)
    Iwan (30 6.53) Atteveld (27 6.56) Van Galen (26 6.62)
    Finidi (30 6.67) Ronald de Boer (25 6.64) Nilis (30 6.53)


    Ajax
    Reiziger 33 6.12
    Frank de Boer 34 6.29
    Litmanen 27 6.41
    Seedorf 33 6.36
    Overmars 27 5.96
    Kluivert 23 5.83
    Davids 21 5.95
    Kanu 17 6.47

    PSV
    Numan 32 6.06
    Zenden 25 5.76
    Ronaldo 33 6.06
     
  14. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
  15. #415 feyenoordsoccerfan, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    A ballet dancer turned into a soccer player. Had some exquisite footwork in his arsenal.

    Edit: Or am I now mixing him up Kanu?
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #416 PuckVanHeel, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
    Okay, many don't rate my opinion but roughly I'd say this;

    Well I think in particular abroad he has become overlooked/forgotten over time (not domestically, where he always features in top lists of foreign players). This is probably because of the later careers by various players, the better position of his team mates in various international awards (Onze, BdO, FIFA, ESM) and that he was the least productive player of the front four (both in league and Champions League). He was in goals and assists a notch less productive as the two-footed Overmars (also in the CL), less productive as Litmanen of course and also less productive as whoever was playing as center forward (Kanu/Kluivert/De Boer). By 1996 he had a pre-contract with Real Madrid (Capello liked him, too) but Ajax and Real Madrid couldn't agree terms and he went to Real Betis instead. Some within Ajax have openly suspected Finidi his real age was older than what was in his passport.

    What speaks for him is he was instantly embraced by Van Gaal. Though Finidi would later say he enjoyed the freedom at Real Betis more (Denilson was playing at the other wing :D), he was very well liked by Van Gaal and when they got eliminated by Parma he mentioned the missing of Finidi, Litmanen and Rijkaard not playing in defense. In 1993-94 he missed five Ajax matches because of the Africa Cup, Ajax lost three. This is I think a big plus, he instantly fitted in. Captain Danny Blind said may 1994: "For me Finidi is the revelation of the season, he walked inside as a surprise and immediately performed at top level. That enforces respect."

    Entirely surprising this was not since the then Nigerian national team manager Clemens Westerhof (boss between 1989-1994, succeeded by his compatriot Bonfrere who won Olympic Gold) made the tip when playing with the under-17 team against Ajax A1 (Westerhof would later jokingly say it was a mistake to not ask a commission for that…). Finidi was on trail with a Russian named Yuri Petrov and a Serb named Mitar Mrkela (who was quickly discarded for being seen as lazy and with far-right political sympathies). The press expected Van Gaal would eventually take Petrov and so did his players. Ronald de Boer: "We all thought he would go for Petrov. He was quick, dangerous, could shoot with his left and right. Finidi was not bad, but in everything a bit modal and okay. Yet Van Gaal picked him. We players were surprised but I said the trainer later he, Rijkaard and Danny Blind saw it right." Finidi improved his shooting and crossing; while initially he was hesitant and sub-standard at shooting with the outside of his boot, he improved and would eventually score his most famous goal with the outside of his laces.

    Finidi was also very much a crowd favorite, clearly one of the most popular players of the team among the match going fans. He became after Grobbelaar, Madjer and Abedi Pele the fourth African to win the Champions League and was for some the best Ajax player in the final, too (remember: Litmanen not entirely healthy). He said: "Players as Clarence Seedorf, Ronald de Boer and Edwin van der Sar were very helpful and attentive and made me blend in. But the sport was also different. In Nigeria the play was much more physical. You couldn't do a feint because you would be chopped down immediately, it's worse than in Italy. At Ajax I had the space to make a feint and dribble." And indeed, with the attack minded Reiziger on his side he had also help for that (instead of the more static Bogarde/De Boer on the other side).

    He was a valuable member of a team that set various domestic and international records (unbeaten domestically and in Europe, unbeaten in away games) and is generally placed among the best foreigners to have played here. Not for the very, very top but in there certainly. 'Algemeen Dagblad' placed him 12th. Those high grades you post are somewhat surprising (for Finidi they don't match with De Telegraaf ratings) but this just shows the subjectivity of it all.



     
  17. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    What do you mean?

    Insightful post, thanks.

    This was the reason I asked about him - I was surprised about his high ratings because abroad he is generally not that well known compared to other players on that Ajax team.
     
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  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Don Balon also seems to like/rate him later on at Real Betis (narrowly missing out for the best XI) but his later career is ofc not like a number of his team mates in terms of clubs, tournaments and accomplishments (even Litmanen showed between the injuries flashes at Barcelona and Liverpool, becoming the favorite player of Wayne Rooney). It is one of the three main factors I think… (the others his productivity and international awards). I did like him to be honest.

    It goes a bit against the stereotype on African footballers but he immediately fitted in the team frame and understood his sometimes-not-too-simple role. It's well known LvG can be tough and demanding on 'individualistic' players (Riquelme, Rivaldo, Ribery - the winger Bryan Roy at Ajax). Maybe helped for a little bit by the previous work with Westerhof cs.
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In the Premier League:
     
  22. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #423 PuckVanHeel, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
    I think that is a bold call but from an African perspective I can understand the idea. There were not many top teams at the time playing with a right winger and the votes reflect this. For ESM he was the only right winger to receive votes; rec.sport.soccer shows Darren Anderton as only competitor; Onze Mondial has only Luis Figo getting votes (0.41%). Only a few European contenders played with wingers. Was Finidi around that time better than someone as Txiki Begeristain, Darren Anderton, Di Livio, an old Donadoni? It is very well possible I think. The dominant league was the Serie A and they didn't like wingers in the classic sense or attacking sense; Real Madrid didn't play with wings. The Premier League (Manchester United, with wingers) was finding their feet in Europe and the teams that did well ('boring' Arsenal) didn't play with wingers, at least not in the Ajax and Barcelona sense (be it classic or inverted like Overmars). So from that kind of angle it is maybe grounded in reality, and can see the African media might feel that way. Finidi George though not the stereotypical winger who does zero press and zero tracking back, and does not connect with the team; hence LvG liked him.
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Just thought of it now; one year ago (July 2018) Voetbal International made the top 50 as discussed in this thread.

    One with several noteworthy and arguable omissions which they also named themselves (Suurbier, Wouters, Jonk, G. Muhren with his Ballon d'Or votes, Thijssen, Winter with his three european cups, Van Heel, Hasselbaink... a few others...), but that is inevitable.

    They also named these as who can make it into the future, or for an appropriate extension to 100 names in a few decades.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Some of these have made a good step, others less so. Unfortunately every forward who can kick a ball 10 meters leaves the country.

    Van Dijk has obviously made the biggest step, but by July 2018 it was already going in a good direction to be fair with a noticeable impact in the 2nd half and a CL final. With his goals and assists against PSG, Bayern, Porto and general contribution he was for many the main protagonist in a Champions League winning campaign and thus joins Sneijder (goals and assists in each KO stage round) and Robben as one of those who helped to break the Spanish hegemony during the last decade (Inter 2010, Chelsea 2012, Bayern 2013, Liverpool 2019). He also played fine in the Nations League final and the rounds before.
     
  25. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    btw the Dutch Ballon D'Or voter (Cees Van Cuilenborg, VI) had Finidi George in 3rd place in 1995.

    1. Weah
    2. Rijkaard
    3. Finidi
    4. Del Piero
    5. Litmanen
     
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