Thanks yeah - it had just come to me that "oh, yeah that's probably the Mastercard team" rather than something organised by VI that was new to us, and I was coming back to clarify! So yep, those 5 names aren't necessarily the closest to making it but just a few picked out by VI that didn't - I understand now, thanks.
It's definitely interesting and as you say, to see the evolving positions in these lists. I also think it's interesting the way that certain players retain their dominance and others lose theirs. I have been thinking in recent days about why Garrincha merits to be placed ahead of Arjen Robben and I'm struggling to give a satisfactory answer. I've previously considered Garrincha a top 10 all-timer and Robben a borderline top 100 player, but I think a lot of these 'sacred cows' deserve reevaluation.
Yeah, it is difficult to gauge (the 'held on a pedestal' argument vs the 'we can't even see a lot of their best footage' arguments). Especially throwing in the changes in rules etc that make certain eras 'harder' or with less impressive stats (I guess 80s to 90s in general might be seen most like that as opposed to what went before and what went after).
Hopefully I will have the strikers ready today or tomorrow. Was a bit busy the last few days. Personally I tend to agree with most of their ordering this time (more so than the wingers I think, where I didn't agree with their placement of contemporaries). I think variety of goals and effective artistry is reasonable to appreciate, something that's also somewhat independent of the surroundings (in the narrow and broad sense of the word), but of course it cannot be the only thing (is it regularly applied against the best opponents like Spain, Liverpool etc.). In my mind it can be part of someone's greatness as a performer/artist. At least it helps for gaining a spot in a top 50/top 100 of a country. As mentioned, lists get also more interesting if there is some variety and texture.
Yeah, this continues to be interesting and well presented Puck - nice work, and of course I'll be checking the remaining profiles out. Looking again at this, in relation to the Dutch players included and their recognition in this 2018 top 50: I've edited comme's post just to insert either G1 to indicate Group 1 (top 10 candidate according to VI), or G2 to indicate Group 2 (11-20 according to VI). Hulshoff was better recognised back then, not being included this time (his generation and the one immediately following pretty well represented among the options in 1999 including non-Dutch players to be fair). Arnold Muhren gets an inclusion both times. While Moulijn fared better in 1999 and Rensenbrink in 2018.
Shortly before his (eventually) fatal ankle injury Iain Macleod wrote (October 1986 issue of World Soccer): "What is worrying for the Dutch is that it is felt when Van Basten moves on, it could signal the departure also of his contemporaries Frank Rijkaard and Ruud Gullit. Van Basten is a truly gifted footballer who undoubtedly possesses the rare natural instinct of the genuine striker and whenever I see play, he always seems to ooze that indefinable quality which can mean the difference between being good and being great. He remains one of the few players worth travelling any distance to see." Marco van Basten (1964, Utrecht) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_van_Basten https://thesefootballtimes.co/2015/06/25/marco-van-basten-an-undisputed-legend/ https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/marco-van-basten-his-years-at-ajax.1893816/ https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/best-football-players-of-all-time.2011432/page-54#post-36722590 Voetbal International interview when he turned 50 @wm442433 his profile: Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Van Basten – The might of a Nordahl sublimed by a touch of the finesse game of a Cruyff, and here is Marco van Basten ! Precocious talent, he was scoring his first goals in the Dutch League for Ajax in 1982 and for the Oranje team in 1983 but he revealed himself to the whole Europe ''only'' at 21-22 years old, in 1986 (in spite of the non-participation of Holland to the Mexican World Cup) as the European golden shoe. And started to convince the sceptics in May '87 by scoring the winning goal of Ajax in the Cup Winners Cup Final. The most sceptics amongst the sceptics were however still not convinced when the Euro '88 started in Germany. This Basten who doesn't seem to have adapted well to his new club, Milan, and who seems to be injury-prone, moreover still had not a formidable goal record at the international level and he was even not a starter for his national team. That would change since the second match in the competition with a hat-trick against England. Kieft finished the job against Ireland in the group stage and MVB could now shine against hosting-nation West Germany (scored the winner) before to conclude this competition with a piece of magic in the Final : that incredible volley that drilled Dasaev, renowned to be a wall. Since then, his Italian career would now develop in a more successful maneer with a scudetto and most of all, main goal of the Lombard club, two European Cup wins, until 1990. Successful again in the Serie A in 1992, Basten and Holland had however totally missed their Italian World Cup in 1990 and, in August, would have to bow to Denmark in the semi-finals of the Euro. After a penalty shootoot during which MVB was the only one to miss his shot. Moreover he had not scored a single goal during the competion. On the bright side, he had turned into a more complete forward, able to orientate the game, maybe under the guidance of his mentor, Cruijff and assuringly due the presence of the young and quick Bergkamp and Roy alongside him. He then continued to score in the Serie A and in Europe until that he decided, at the half-time of the 1992-1993 season, to be operated (for the second time since 1986) on this right ankle that never ceased to make him suffer. He'd reappear on the Serie A's fields in April-March '93, scoring one goal in three little matches only as recoverying from his operation shows to be very difficult. He is however on the Milan team that confronts its best enemy in Europe, Marseille, in the Champions League final in May. For the pleasure of every football fans, even if he seems diminished physically, MVB enters well in his match and provides a very good performance. But OM has scored just before the half-time after that Milan missed several chances and the French-men will save the 1-0 win. MVB was subbed out at the 86th minute. Despite some attempts to return, it would be his last match. He was only 28 and fate deprived us of seeing more of this remarkable striker who had just turned into a so complete player that he had for sure still much to give. We'll still content ourselves with what this ''great'' has given. After a 10 years career as a head-coach - started with the Dutch national team, 2004-2008, then continued at Ajax and Alkmaar – he is now an assistant-manager for his federation. Not sure if MVB would have ranked higher if not for the injuries, but not sure either why he should rank lower. Even if it was tight, in FYT's mind, with the following player as for the attribution of the 11th place Videos: Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x463wa5 (okay, this is not an easy one to do because he's well-known, because so much is to say - also about the dynamics and relation to Gullit for example - and because it shouldn't be too long either. @PDG1978 - maybe you can post that "perfect pitch" magazine article if you want) One of the icons with a few 'what if' questions, yet in some ways 'the swan of Utrecht' and 'Nureyev di calcio' also fulfilled his potential if he was fit and the team did not disintegrate in classical fashion. It is the interesting situation where both arguments feel incorrect. This is well pointed when in the March 1983 issue World Soccer (Cian O'Mahoney) wrote: "Marco van Basten (aged 18), Ajax striker, uncapped. Described by national coach Rijvers as having "unlimited possibilities". Two-footed, heads the ball well, reads the game well, a beautiful mover. Scored in his first game for Ajax as a 17-year old, coming on as a substitute for Cruyff [seen here, from 1:01 onward]. His all-round skills have led to inevitable comparisons with the Dutch Master. Being carefully nursed along by Ajax. If he fulfills his potential could indeed be the biggest thing to happen to Dutch football since Cruyff." A year later he had won the European silver boot, behind Ian Rush at the very peak of his powers - including a hatful goals against PSV and Feyenoord - and was perhaps the youngest ever podium finisher until that point (did not check, Shoot! said so). With his help the Netherlands had almost qualified for euro 1984 (8 teams). It was the first sign he actually might go on to have his influence and accomplish things. At hindsight, none of O'Mahoney his words were decisively incorrect. Paolo Maldini and Franco Baresi have frequently named him their best ever team-mate (Baresi went even one step further). Michael Laudrup said September 1993 to the question at whom kids should look: "At the moment, [I prefer the kids to look at] Van Basten. I have always said that football needs goalscorers and it also needs great footballers. The only one who is both [today] is Van Basten." Both Rinus Michels and Louis van Gaal argued that more than his trophies or accomplishments, his true legacy is in how medium sized and big men play the sport up front today. His movements and tactical profile remained study material. Van Gaal remarked recently "many uncomplicated managers and uncomplicated footballers have been wildly successful, and remain so today, but details can give an edge, especially if you are not in a relatively comfortable position." In the eight full seasons he was six times topscorer of his league. Once he ended second (but was European Cup topscorer with 10 goals, the highest for a winning player since Altafini), but was well rated by some, and the other season resulted in the "appoint Capello [yes, he had that idea] or sell me" question to Galliani. In 1990-91 he was still club topscorer and with a widely praised performance he led them to the 2nd round in the European Cup, but didn't play in the ill-spirited Marseille match that saw them banned for one season. Excluding the season he was injured or his club banned, he always stood in an European final in the seasons between 1986 and 1993, with decisive interventions in all the campaigns. Milan won the final again in 1994, but that was objectively an 'easier' route (except for the final, although they had a few weeks rest and Barcelona two days in effect) and their attacking threat declined starkly and immediately (two video discussions). He had some quite high peaks with thing as the 1985-86 league season (1.42 goals per game, only 1950s names rival that), euro 1988 (against four elite teams, topscorer, best player), 25 goals in Serie A 1991-92 (highest since early/mid 1960s), the 1989 European Cup (10 goals) and perhaps he even did not need to score per se to be good (at euro 1992 he had zero goals - despite one incorrectly ruled out and shot on crossbar (3:10) - but France Football gave him the highest average grade of his team). He was the first since Cruijff to score 6 goals in a Eredivisie match, the first to score 4 non-penalty goals since the Serie A opened their borders, first to score four goals twice in EC/CL since the early 1960s, and there are many more things to mention that I'm afraid to overlook or forget (first to have hat-trick against England since the 1950s). Despite the injuries, he accomplished breakthrough things for three different teams and with evidence to support his impact. His low point was the 1990 World Cup where he disappointed with 0 goals and 2 assists, arguably the only competition where he did not reach a high peak (far from it). After his retirement he disappeared from public life for a decade. His calm presentation and ability to 'think' adds to the respect he generated. (not completely happy with what I made in the days since Sunday, and deleted several things too, for example that he was definitely missed in the 1986WCQ play-offs, but maybe something more can be added/discussed later. I still think that unlike Van der Vaart he was domestically not really seen as the 'new Cruijff', and unrelated to that, Vanenburg was certainly also considered as a great talent and perhaps better until he was 16 years old - MvB himself said that) --------------------- Goalkeepers: Frans de Munck (1922, Goes) Hans van Breukelen (1956, Utrecht) Jan van Beveren (1948, Amsterdam) Edwin van der Sar (1970, Voorhout) Defenders: Danny Blind (1961, Vlissingen) Harry Denis (1896, The Hague) Giovanni van Bronckhorst (1975, Rotterdam) Cor van der Hart (1928, Amsterdam) Rinus Israel (1942, Amsterdam) Frank de Boer (1970, Hoorn) Ruud Krol (1949, Amsterdam) Jaap Stam (1972, Kampen) Ronald Koeman (1963, Zaandam) Frank Rijkaard (1962, Amsterdam) Defensive midfielders: Wim Jansen (1946, Rotterdam) Mark van Bommel (1977, Maasbracht) Edgar Davids (1973, Paramaribo) Arie Haan (1948, Finsterwolde) Central midfielders: Philip Cocu (1970, Eindhoven) Johan Neeskens (1951, Heemstede) Clarence Seedorf (1976, Paramaribo) Willem van Hanegem (1944, Breskens) Attacking midfielders: Arnold Mühren (1951, Volendam) Ronald de Boer (1970, Hoorn) Rafael van der Vaart (1983, Heemskerk) Willy van der Kuijlen (1946, Helmond) Wesley Sneijder (1984, Utrecht) Ruud Gullit (1962, Amsterdam) Johan Cruijff (1947, Amsterdam) Wing players: Gerald Vanenburg (1964, Utrecht) Coen Moulijn (1937, Rotterdam) Sjaak Swart (1938, Muiderberg) Johnny Rep (1951, Zaandam) Marc Overmars (1973, Emst) Piet Keizer (1943, Amsterdam) Rob Rensenbrink (1947, Amsterdam) Arjen Robben (1984, Bedum) Center forwards: Huug de Groot (1890, Rotterdam) Ruud Geels (1948, Haarlem) Roy Makaay (1975, Wijchen) Beb Bakhuys (1909, Pekalongan) Patrick Kluivert (1976, Amsterdam) Ruud van Nistelrooij (1976, Oss) Robin van Persie (1983, Rotterdam) Marco van Basten (1964, Utrecht)
Nice profile Puck, and interesting especially to see the quotes about him from early in his career. The 'Perfect Pitch' article kind of rings a bell but at the same time it slips my mind in terms of exactly what it was and where I showed you it or posted it, and exactly what it said too!
Thanks for the compliments PDG. I found it a difficult one to do (ofc I know that you rate and like him, also for some of his less obvious years as 1985 and we discussed a bit about that). I deleted his career as national team manager because I felt unable to do that in two sentences; maybe could have said something about his thinking on the laws of the game and that at one point he thought he should take it further than writing an article and convene with people who think into the same direction beforehand. That's also why @annoyedbyneedoflogin his feedback and own ideas (for some balance and variation of thoughts) is very helpful. This one: I have that good article in the native language but there it was in English. I remembered you had that issue. It is on the upbringings of multiple iconic footballers. It has also a list with his 'accomplishments' included.
Yeah, I remember now! I'll have to let you know if and when I find it again though to be honest, being probably more disorganised than I should be in terms of keeping these sorts of things in a safe and easily remembered place (it's certainly not sitting nicely on a book shelf I'm pretty sure anyway lol)! So if you wanted to go ahead and post some translated parts from it, I guess that'd be a good idea.
Okay no problem mate. Can I ask to you what are videos (match compilations?) of him that you specifically like? I was thinking the past days that there is a gap in videos showing his best passing skills. When on-tune, a few of those could be fairly good/great.
My memory might be slightly hazy on that also, and maybe despite some nice attempts there isn't a really outstanding compilation reflecting his overall game. There was one that you had noticed that did have some nice passes on it though I do seem to recall (probably again your memory of exactly which one it was will be better than mine). In some ways watching your Van Basten vs England or Germany, or perhaps USSR (Euro 1988) Dailymotion videos, or certain Van Basten vs videos on YouTube (vs Real Madrid 1989, Inter 91/92, Intercontinental Cup games etc) might give a better view of his overall game, although of course the compilations have his whole career (or what was shown on TV) to pick from in theory. Looking back at his Ajax goals is educational for those getting to know him better I think too, so those videos on YouTube are good too.
Yes that one has been deleted sadly. I noticed below one of the videos a thumbed up comment with: "Maradona said he would have been the best of all if he didn´t got his ankle destroyed at a young age." I've asked @comme if he is willing to post the very good 'perfect pitch' piece. I might come back with some examples of his passes or flicks, as last thing before going to the inside forwards.
Yeah, I do recall some comment like that from Maradona that I had noticed at some point. That'll be good if comme is able to do that then yep - sorry that I don't have it to hand right now!
Yeah, not really sure whether Maradona is right but it might be. Maradona has of course said a lot of different things (like Pelé). A few months back I asked @msioux75 what he said in an interview since that part sounded actually interesting (I couldn't understand his accent/mumbling). Msioux replied back, that Maradona was saying this: Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Maradona is mumbling, so I think is no clear for non spanish speakers: "In a meeting in Barcelona, Cruijff said to Maradona: I didn't go to your country, because in your country people were killed. Maradona told: Look, the truth is, that we didn't know, people don't walk in the streets with guns or spears as some spanish media draw argentinians, we aren't like that. But, someday four killers enter in your house and take your child, that was something, people can't manage, finally all those things came truth and 30k people were disappeared, those crazy people make atrocities, him as a argentinian apologise, but it was his own fault or people's fault. Then, in Fillol's words: those years, during the dictatorship, argentine sports had very good years, they starred at car racing, tennis, box, football, etc., and people were following closely their sport idols achievements, same with the WC thophy, millions of people go to the streets to celebrate, because they as the sportmen didn't know what's happening, just with democracy the truth was revealed. But dictatorship was one thing and world cup was a different thing, footballers in the squad are sad because dictatorship used the victory to continue killing people, but the saves, goals and overall play was a merit of the players only. This reminds me of a documentary called 'becoming Zlatan' which deals with the same subject of upbringing (it ends with Zlatan's first game for Juventus). It was one of the best football documentaries I saw - maybe because my expectations were low and had the intention to switch off if it didn't grab my attention. MvB has also a brief appearance there, where he comes across very well and 'humble' I think. Generally he has sometimes good comments (if he appears, not very often), for example on that most attacking players tend to work from an instant and spontaneous quick access memory rather than really thinking things through (if the ball is in play).
Yeah, on the last sentence - that seems a correct observation to me, except perhaps on occasions where a player might think "ok, today I have it in mind to do this - to try this kind of shot or pass at some stage, or to dribble from halfway..." and maybe they make considered decisions about where to place themselves (if not restricted by managers instructions) based on how a game is unfolding and where space seems to be etc.
Well lots of the players from the 40s, 50s and 60s but people like Kubala, Garrincha, Sivori. Not to say they weren’t great players but are there is a tendency to give them a free pass to a degree. I have done this a lot, lionising the greats of yesteryear, but I do wonder if it’s deserved.
Can you maybe post the article? I thought it was very good (the native version) and complementary to the above.
I think a good start point for these re-evaluations would be to compare players from the same country, as in this thread, and assess how their ranking within their own country has shifted over time. That would allow the debate to develop free of nationalistic squabbling. Admittedly this would be difficult for certain players such as Kubala. He is usually described as Hungarian, though his mixed roots were mainly Slovak and the first country he played for was Czechoslovakia. Comparing him with Hungarian or Czechoslovak footballers would not be very useful since he only played with or against their teams until the age of 23. It might be better to treat him as belonging to Barcelona and assess him against those who have played there. Kubala's first name became Catalanised to Ladislao, and in 1999 he was voted the club's greatest ever player by its supporters. His periods out of the game through illness present a further complication.
To come back to this, I noticed now again this part in the Football's Greatest episode with Sandro Mazzola saying Cruijff took a 15-years MvB with him to a five-a-side tournament. Hmmm... Either way, thanks comme for sending the piece (in English). Here it is in two parts. I notice the list of 'accolades' is slightly different as in the Dutch version - I'll post that on monday then and maybe also show some passes (as said above; an earlier video was deleted) before then finally going to the inside forwards. Either way, I thought this was a very good complementary piece. Part one: Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler
Part two (thanks again): Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Also thanks to @PDG1978 for his help. This made me remember that other nice piece on Laudrup and Ibrahimovic (where MvB is briefly mentioned as one of the few persons Ibra respects/trusts somehow).
To be precise, this is what he says there, talking in English (it is a Swedish documentary, I found it one of the best). "In that time I wasn't really every day at the club, but when I saw him he was always interested if I had to say something. He knew me as a former football player, he knew what I had done, but also at the same time he wanted to play with me, to challenge me, show to me he was a good player and all these things. So I said: 'You have big temperament. It is good, the only thing is you have to use these energies that is coming into you in a right way.' Then he was watching me 'okay, what do you want'. I said: 'You are acting and talking as a big star, but show it to me. It is nice and it is good what you are doing but in the end the ball has to be in the goal as well." (at that time Ibra wasn't a great scorer yet - also not in the Swedish league though there were certain high peaks) Ofc he also worked with the Uruguayan Luis Suarez (with whom he clashed occasionally, too: 'Even as a kid in Uruguay I knew I would one day have to play in Europe,' he says. 'And I saw Holland as a great school. I learned so much in my time in Holland and, because of the way they do things there, I don't think I would have learned as much somewhere else. 'I was a selfish player. But they taught me the importance of being part of a team. Van Basten taught me a lot about how to play as a forward; about shooting techniques and about things that worked for him. His movement, his technique. 'But from all of them I learned about remaining calm on the pitch; when in front of goal and also when being fouled. You have to try not to react; take a step back. I learned to control my attitude more.' https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...rez-Liverpool-No-7-shirt-biting-handball.html I'll continue with the series on monday/tuesday at the earliest.
My main issue is the lack of any consistency or coherence, for reasons argued previously. The people who perennially knock down Dutch players (within their own generation) are the same people who don't rate Cruijff as a football personality. But how to explain then that until the Bosman ruling only three countries had more European Cups? (and that even with a forced downgrade to 'zero' in 1973). The high number of national team semi finals and quarter finals during JC14 his lifetime? (3rd in historical Elo rating). It can't be some perks or privileges, because as the consistent non-seeding convincingly shows, there weren't any and as a small country with a language/culture nobody shares it is prone to being isolated. There is more to this but taken it all together it typically doesn't add up. Kubala was also placed #6 by Don Balon at the end of 1999. Behind Pelé, Cruijff, Maradona, Di Stefano, Beckenbauer (in that order). At the same time, Kubala made the Ballon d'Or list only once (5th in 1957). From the 'Barcelona Official Handbook' (published second half of 2001 by Panini). Kubala is definitely helped by that unlike the other stars (with better BdO finishes for FCB) he didn't leave the club in acrimony (or frictious circumstances) nor was he at loggerheads with the then Nunez-Gaspart led directorate (who had a big hand in the local media and certainly in this television station, Nunez was on the supervisory board).
I understand some of the sensitivities and kind of get where you are coming from, but don't personally see Dutch footballers as being especially underrated. We looked at end-of-twentieth-century polls before, and it may be worth briefly revisiting how footballers from the Netherlands fared. IFFHS World Player of the Century (German-based): Cruyff #2, van Basten #12, Gullit #18. Three Dutch players in the Top 20, compared with three Germans, two each from Argentina and England, and one from Italy and France. Only Brazil (4) has more. IFFHS European Player of the Century (German-based): Cruyff #1, van Basten #10. Two Dutch players in the Top 10, the same as Germany and England. Italy has none. Placar (Brazil): Five Dutchmen in Top 100. Cruyff #3. Venerdi (Italy): Five Dutchmen in Top 100. Guerin Sportivo (Italy): Cruyff #4, van Basten #11. Planete Foot: Four Dutchmen in Top 50. FourFourTwo: Three Dutch players in Top 20 compared with one German and no Italians. Cruyff ranked #2. The Times (Brian Glanville): Again three Dutch players in Top 20 compared with one German and no Italians. Cruyff ranked #4. ITV (UK): Top 10 has two each from Brazil, Argentina and Netherlands, one from Germany and none from Italy or England. Cruyff ranked #3; van Basten #6. World Soccer: Top 10 has two each from Argentina and Netherlands, one from Brazil and Germany, and none from Italy or England. Cruyff ranked #3; van Basten #9. Pele's Top 125 (living in 2004): Brazil 15 representatives, Italy 14, France 14, Netherlands 13, Argentina 10, Germany 10, England 7. Ballon d'Or Top 30 (Adding Annual Percentages of Top 5 Vote): 4 representatives – France, Germany, Netherlands; 3 – Brazil, Spain, Former USSR; 2 – Argentina, England, Italy, Portugal; 1 – Bulgaria. Former Ballon d'Or Winners' Voted Top 10: Two representatives each from Argentina, Brazil, Germany and Netherlands. One from France and Hungary. None from Italy, Spain or England. Voetbal International (Raf Willems) Top 50: 8 representatives from Brazil; 7 - Netherlands, 4 – Argentina, Belgium, England, Germany; 3 – Italy, Scotland; 2 – France, Former USSR; 1 – Austria, Former Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Hungary, Northern Ireland, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Uruguay. Total Football (UK) 100 Greatest Strikers: van Basten ranked #1 ahead of Pele (#2), Eusebio (#3), Puskas (#4), and Muller (#5). Cruyff #16. No Italian in Top 20. When Voetbal International updated their list last year there were ten Dutch footballers in their Top 100. Dearman may once have described Beckenbauer as the leading personality of his generation, but he still places Cruyff above the German in his Top 50. There are four Dutch footballers in Dearman's Top 50. Only Brazil, Italy and Germany have more. Footballers from the Netherlands seem to do rather well out of all this. One could argue that Italy, with her four World Cups, has more cause for complaint. And perhaps Germany. My take on English perceptions of Dutch football may not be representative but I don't detect any particular bias against the Netherlands. Eric Batty didn't like Cruyff for some reason but the lists above suggest he was not reflecting general opinion. Before 1969 Dutch teams had never participated in a World Cup or reached a European Cup Final so were largely ignored, outside the occasional encounter. There was disappointment and some surprise at Celtic losing the 1970 final to Feyenoord, but recognition that the better side had won. Ajax's victories were generally well received, particularly those against the catenaccio-based Italian clubs. When England failed to qualify for the 1974 World Cup, quite a few supporters rooted for the Netherlands. At the final, actress Liz Taylor was famously pictured in the crowd among Dutch fans. The 1977 friendly at Wembley was played in a good spirit with Netherlands' performance widely praised. Some of the goodwill dissipated as the two nations met more often in competitve matches, notably when Ronald Koeman controversially prevented England from qualifying for the 1994 World Cup. But it has never been too serious. This thread has produced a lot of good information that one imagines posters will not have seen before, and that is partly because it has concentrated on players from one country and been all about football. Comparing van Beveren and van der Sar gives insight into how Dutch goalkeepers now rank. Garrincha v Robben could easily turn into a Brazil v Netherlands argument extending far and wide. Which is fine in its own place - governance is a live issue and Dutch/Latin rivalries go back four centuries. But it would distract from an objective assessment of the players concerned.
Very good post but I especially mean the tendencies of the last 20 years by the masses and internet folks, which in turn obviously influences the media perceptions. Within 20 years time Cruijff has been placed a whole class below Maradona (as evidenced by the FIFA game, where he's a whole 5 points below him and 'just' a mortal like Ronaldinho ) - and certain parts of his career get (intentionally) greatly maligned. Van Basten has been losing out against a few of his (semi-)contemporaries and other great strikers, even Romario. Of course his career ended early but, say, no one will take Totti (or someone else of the stacked 1976 year) above Ronaldo just because he played for ~ 10 more years at the top level. Let alone take a central midfielder above him. I have always sensed an Anglo-German collusion at the top of the football chain (which also tends to be the South American perception). Then I don't mean the tabloids but the more high-brow journalists like Barry Davies, Brian Glanville (with his various more contentious claims) and yes also Eric Batty. This also clearly extends to the administrators of the game. The links with Germany by the entire English aristocracy and elite are obvious. Governance of the game is indeed an issue and in this respect it greatly annoyed me that someone like oxbridge elitist Jonathan Wilson in his influential Inverting the Pyramid book is turning some things upside down, totally devoid of perspective and context. Anyway, I'd like to discuss this in more detail but I'm afraid it would clog up the the thread too much, so was a bit reluctant to make it a long thing. Bottom-line is that I appreciate your good post.