Dutch clubs in European Silverware chase 2017-2018

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by feyenoordsoccerfan, Jul 26, 2017.

  1. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    ^^ Quite right; they got huge money for both Klaassen and Sanchez.
     
  2. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    #27 Blondo, Nov 3, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
    Vitesse lost to Essevee but the points on offer are very little help for either Holland's or Belgium's coefficient. Unless miracles happen the nightmare in Europe will end when winter comes.

    => A direct CL spot for next season's champions of Holland is gone ... as Austria have now overtaken Holland

    => A direct EL spot for next season's cup winners will be lost and extra CL + EL qualifying rounds will be added:

    - Czech Rep. are about to overtake Holland (2017/18 ranking)
    - Greece and Switzerland could also do it
    - Dutch clubs still have to face their group's toughest opponents while the closest competitors in the rankings face their softest opponents

    This season's results will weigh Holland's coefficient down for quite a while. In the next 4 years results will have to be above average to avoid losing even more ground. For the 2018/19 ranking Holland possibly drop below Austria, Greece and/or Switzerland. Denmark and Czech Rep. are also closing in fast.

    Next season in Europe will be the first without direct CL/EL spots and those spots won't immediately be regained. Not only will it be very tight to grab direct CL/EL spots in the coming years but one misstep and Holland could be limited to max. 4 teams in Europe with 1 instead of 2 teams in the CL Q rounds. Even Israel and Cyprus are creeping up on Holland. Notwithstanding last season's results, Holland's best in years, both Israel and Cyprus have outperformed Holland in the last two seasons. Before you know it, tiny Cyprus will be breathing down your neck.
     
  3. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    ^^^^ Oranje's fate will be sealed next. I predicted this 10 years ago.
    You CANNOT expect Dutch clubs to underperform and at same time expect our NT to overperform.

    Holland will NOT make a world cup final (or even a semifinal) for at least next 20 years, if not more (probably more!!)
     
  4. Skandal!!!

    Skandal!!! Member

    Legia Warszawa
    Poland
    Apr 26, 2017
    What is the source of this calamity you reckon? What went wrong?
     
  5. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Just a bad batch of generations coming through.

    Spain had their golden generation from 2008 to 2012.
    Holland's golden generation will come through as well, just give it time.
    In fact, I think ours will be better!!
     
  6. Skandal!!!

    Skandal!!! Member

    Legia Warszawa
    Poland
    Apr 26, 2017
    I remember when Boniek said in 1986 after loss to Brazil, that next time Poland will play at WC will be in 20 years. It took 16, and it was indeed very dark time for Polish Football... Let's hope Holland recovers faster, and is back on both club and international levels.
     
  7. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    ^^^ lets hope so too
     
  8. Antario2

    Antario2 Member

    Jan 29, 2012
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    There are many reasons for the decline:
    *The Dutch football association (knvb) did not update coaching methods for youth and amateur football
    *Less government and private sector funding for youth football
    *Dutch clubs fell behind international competition in terms of professionalization of the organization.
    *Obsession with making former footballers head coaches
    *Van Gaal youth plan made it more difficult for creative footballers to develop
    *Premier league club poaching and destroying academy players
    *Older but average foreign players increasing edge out talent at mid and lower table clubs
     
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  9. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    Seeing there's a Polish poster ITT ... Poland are doing well: topseeded NT in Russia, nice squad with one of, if not the best striker in the world, quite a few exciting prospects coming through, looked promising at the EUROs, ended WCQs as group leaders and expect them to be a dark horse at the World Cup. Polish clubs OTOH aren't doing that well in Europe, Poland are ranked 20th and this year all Polish clubs have been eliminated already (they could drop below the likes of Romania and Azerbaijan).

    There are plenty of leagues that struggle yet in international football those countries have a quality side ... the Conmebol NTs, Croatia, Poland, etc. OTOH Russia's NT isn't that strong yet Russian clubs are up there (ranked 6th), Ukraine and Turkey didn't reach Russia2018 yet both leagues are in the top 10 (Austria, Holland, Czech Rep. and maybe Italy aren't among the 13 qualifiers while at club level their coefficient puts them in the top 13), England aren't exactly the 2nd best team yet at club level England are ranked only behind Spain, Chinese clubs are dominating Asia while the Chinese NT not so much, and so on. You can find lots of examples. The correlation doesn't seem that strong to state: as the league goes, so goes the nation.
     
  10. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Club strength correlation is only to money and nothing else.
     
  11. Skandal!!!

    Skandal!!! Member

    Legia Warszawa
    Poland
    Apr 26, 2017
    Well, it depends... If you look at Polish Ekstraklasa, it is way richer, and has way better infrastructure, TV coverage etc, then any Central European or Scandinavian league - yet, usually, it performs worse then Czech, Croat, Romanian, Danish etc. leagues. The only team, which was performing as it should was Legia (this year we had the worst showing in Europe in history though...),with only occasional runs by Lech and Wisla (on like two occasions each in last 17 years). Many say, that low quality of youth training is to blame; yet, from my point of view there are two very specific reasons:

    1. Ekstraklasa plays too late into the season (until mid June) and starts too late (late July). Since we are so low in the coefficients, we have to play many teams from leagues like Macedonia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, etc. in early stages of the qualifying - these teams usually start early July (or even earlier), and some are even in mid season (like Sweden) - therefore, we face teams who are already in their playing routine, while our teams are just back from vacation. Traveling to Kazakhstan or Armenia also does not help... Solution would be, to end season earlier (mid May), and start earlier (mid/late June), so that we are more in the season, like the opposition we are to face (and not like like top European leagues, which will start playing in Europe very late August, or even September).

    2. Ekstraklasa teams find it hard to actually keep their squads, and often sell their best players for cheap money to other leagues (1 and 2 Bundesliga, Serie A. or B., Championship, Dutch Ere), while waiting to replenish their squads with better players until last day of the transfer window in August (hoping to get valuable players for cheaper). It is too late by that point to replenish the squad, since you have to face someone in Kazakhstan in early July, and are likely to be out of Europe by early August anyway (because you sold better players, and stayed with mediocre for Europe).
     
  12. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Our 1995 Ajax wasnt exactly flushed with cash.
    It was almost all homegrown and youth players, with a couple of foreign buys mixed in (Litmanen, Finidi George)
     
  13. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    That was pre-Bosman. Totally different era.
     
  14. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
  15. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Porto are the only 'small' club to have won the CL since the Ajax win in 1996. All the other winners came from England, Germany, Italy, and Spain. Only 9 different clubs: Milan, Inter, Bayern, Liverpool, ManU, Juventus, Barca, Madrid, Dortmund
     
  16. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    So have you resigned yourself to the fact Ajax will always be mediocre then??
     
  17. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    As long as van der Sar, Overmars and the rest of this management team stays in place the club will be mediocre. They could bring Pep Guardiola in tomorrow and the results would not be much different. The club sells players too early, buys players who are not very good (Neres may be one of the exceptions), and doesn't go out and fill holes in the roster the way they should (still waiting for a proper LB and DM to come). The youth academy is decent but look at the players that left early because Ajax were slow to offer a contract.

    Two other problems are the lack of television money so that Ajax cannot compete against even 2nd or 3rd rate English teams who off the bat get €90M just for being in the EPL and the dismal performance of all Dutch clubs in Europe in recent years.

    I've followed Ajax since 1973 when my Dutch cousin urged me to. I've seen a lot of highs and some lows. I'm enough of a realist to know that things are not going back to where they were.
     
  18. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    The only way to put a stop to the big clubs always winning the CL is IMO some type of salary cap, TV revenue sharing or something similar to that.

    But then the question begs, how many clubs do you share revenue with?? Do 2nd division also get some money??

    Its a giant mess they've created, the CL has become boring to me to watch, its always gonna be Barca, Madrid, Bayern....etc who will win it. Thats so dull!!!

    I guess the only optimistic thing I can think of is we might get a couple more Leicester Cities or FC Porto's winning it before I'm dead
     
  19. It has been said that it even is doubtful if the CL will be on Dutch tv anymore, as the interest in it has spiraled down (not only here, but in the whole of Europe, they are saved by more viewers outside of Europe). So the way UEFA is handling the CL and their latest addition to it will eventually lead to the death of it, when it becomes an even smaller circle of interested.
     
    Orange14 repped this.
  20. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Good!! I hope it forces UEFA to rethink things and they realize they cant keep going on this path for much longer.

    The way things are they might as well skip all the early rounds and go straight to a 4 team semifinal of Barca, Madrid, Bayern and a wildcard team (Juve, Chelsea, Dortmund, PSG or ManU/Atletico)
     
    Skandal!!! repped this.
  21. I think it costed 2 million to put it on tv over here, but the interest in it is going downhill so fast nobody seems to be willing to cough up that kind of money to put it in Dutch tv. But the same is going on in other small countries. So they might end up with a CL manipulated to get the richest in the final 16 and as a result I expect the interest in the big leagues goes down too.
     
  22. Skandal!!!

    Skandal!!! Member

    Legia Warszawa
    Poland
    Apr 26, 2017
    I would agree to many of the above. The interest in Europe was generated, because in the past many other teams from all around had chances of getting to the semis of European Cup/CL and competing against the bigger teams. People simply cheered, because they hoped to see their team to be there and fight the top. Now though, you are right, it is almost always Real, Barca, Bayern plus one more of the bunch you named... I am tired of this as well, and look back to the times when PSV, Ajax, Feyenoord, Celtic, Crvena Zvezda, Steaua, Legia, Dynamo Kiev, Lyon or even IFK Gothenburg were making far runs into competition.

    Lets hope, UEFA won't totally turn to Asia and USA for their profits. I catch myself preferring EL to CL lately.
     
    Orange14 repped this.
  23. Skandal!!!

    Skandal!!! Member

    Legia Warszawa
    Poland
    Apr 26, 2017
    I should have added Widzew Lodz as well, and their glorious campaigns of the late 70's and early 80's.
     
  24. Well, there today is the real fun. The CL is turning into a tournement for Asian star gazing glory hunters.
     
  25. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I don't know how much money UEFA gets for USA television rights. The problem is that group matches are on during weekdays here in the US so anyone who works likely won't be watching in teal time. Soccer usually gets very low television ratings compared to the other major US sports.
     

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