Dutch clubs European silverware run 2018-2019

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by feyenoordsoccerfan, Jul 25, 2018.

  1. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    PSV are just too poor with the ball at this level. They can beat league teams because of the quality differential but at CL level it's hopeless. Cannot see them qualifying for the Europa League unless there is a huge upset(s). Of course Ajax beat Barcelona back in 2013 at home even going down to 10 when Veltman was sent off.
     
  2. The fecking Totally Hotshit dildos.
    Kick out of the stadium a 10 year old kid for wearing a PSV shirt:
    Guus (10) wordt Wembley uitgezet omdat hij PSV-shirt draagt: ‘Dat ging best wel lomp’

    Wat voor de tienjarige Guus Dansen uit Eindhoven een onvergetelijk voetbaluitje in Londen had moeten worden met zijn vader Peter, eindigde vanavond in een deceptie voor de jonge PSV-supporter. Hij mocht het Wembley Stadion niet in, want hij droeg een PSV-shirt.

    I hope they go bankrupt because of that stadium.
     
  3. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    ^^ I saw lots of supporters wearing PSV shirts; there must be something else to this story.
     
  4. BaritoPutra

    BaritoPutra Member

    Jan 26, 2007
    I didn’t watch the match today, evidently PSV was once again faltered on the last mile. I think this is the third loss after initially leading in UCL.

    Inexperience is certainly a factor, but I think Van Bommel must also address the fatigue factor. He doesn’t rotate his squad. In the last 3 or 4 league matches, they struggled to get to the finish line (even though they still managed to record a win). Their game pace is much slower versus that of a couple months ago. Some players, the midfield trio especially, are getting clumsier and more unorganized. And their two CB’s are not exactly fast to begin with - so conceding goals is bound to happen. International break couldn’t come sooner for PSV.
     
    Orange14 repped this.
  5. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    @BaritoPutra - agree with your comments. The other problem is that other than Lozano they don't have anyone with pace who can create danger. de Jong is slower than molasses and only dangerous from set pieces as he showed. Bergwijn is decent but not quick enough Pereiro is really slow and the other two MFs don't have good handling speed. PSV was just hoofing the ball upfield rather than trying to control the ball in their own end. Maybe this was van Bommel's plan but if you cannot control the ball your defense will be under constant pressure. I was surprised they held out as long as they did.
     
  6. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    Eredivisie clubs surviving the group stage of EL/CL in the last 10 years:

    2008/2009: EL: Ajax, NEC, Twente CL: -
    2009/2010: EL: Ajax, PSV, Twente CL: -
    2010/2011: EL: Ajax, PSV, Twente CL: -
    2011/2012: EL: Ajax, AZ, PSV, Twente CL: -
    2012/2013: EL: Ajax CL: -
    2013/2014: EL: Ajax, AZ CL: -
    2014/2015: EL: Ajax, Feyenoord, PSV CL: -
    2015/2016: EL: - CL: PSV
    2016/2017: EL: Ajax, AZ CL: -
    2017/2018: EL: - CL: -
    2018/2019: EL: - CL: Ajax

    => Ajax is the only one that's consistent but lately results have become erratic
    => Twente's absence in the KO phase coincided with Holland's decline in the rankings (once Holland entered 5 teams instead of 6 or 7 the coefficient improved).

    Soon the 3rd European cup competition will be rubber-stamped (2-3 Dec.). The top 5 won't get more spots. Instead the extra places will go to the leagues ranked below them. Top-heavy leagues, like Holland or Ukraine, might struggle to enter teams that contribute to the coefficient. Without Twente (or a weak Twente) and 6 or 7 spots the extra Eredivisie clubs in Europe might again lower the coefficient. Leagues with more depth, like Belgium or Russia, could do well (Antwerp, yet another competitive side, has stepped up in Belgium while Standard, Gent and Anderlecht are rebuilding). Even if the number of clubs that each country enters remains the same, as is rumoured, you'd expect the leagues with more depth to collect more points in the 3 European cup competitions. Let's first see what's planned, we only have to wait a few days.
     
  7. Plaatsing voor de knock-outfase van de Europa League levert overigens geen bonuspunten op. PSV speelt nog één wedstrijd in Europa (tegen Inter) en Ajax is verzekerd van minimaal drie duels: de thuiswedstrijd tegen Bayern München en daarna op zijn minst twee duels in de knock-outfase.
    upload_2018-11-30_13-31-0.png
     
  8. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    UEFA released the new access list, including the 3rd European cup competition UEL2:

    https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/General/02/58/61/42/2586142_DOWNLOAD.pdf

    The club coefficients for the same period as my earlier post:

    Ajax .............. 131.5

    PSV ................ 97

    AZ ................. 55.5
    Twente .......... 51.5

    Feyenoord ..... 33.5

    Heerenveen .... 10.5

    Vitesse ............ 7
    Utrecht ........... 7
    NEC ................ 7

    Groningen ....... 2.5
    NAC ................ 1.5
    Zwollo .......... 1.5
    Heracles .......... 1
    ADO ................ 1
    GAE ................. 0.25


    => hardly a surprise that Ajax and PSV are well ahead of the others but Feyenoord that low was a surprise (even got lucky, e.g. Elvis v Zorya).
    => Twente needs to be replaced and others need to punch their weight as well
     
  9. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    Any reason why the Eredivisie doesn't have more depth?
    Why do the Eredivisie clubs ranked below Ajax and PSV struggle so much in Europe?

    How the Eredivisie compares to the Pro League in the most recent club ranking:

    27. Ajax (55.5)
    33. Anderlecht (46)
    39. Brugge (39.5)
    40. PSV (36)
    47. Gent (29.5)
    65. Genk (22)
    67. Feyenoord (22)
    82. Standard (16.5)
    118. AZ (10.5)
    142. Belgian coefficient (Essevee, Lokeren, Charleroi, Oostende)
    153. Vitesse (7)
    165. Dutch coefficient (Utrecht, Heracles, Groningen, GAE, Twente, Zwolle)

    Clubs in bold haven't been eliminated this year.
     
  10. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    How long do Belgium clubs keep their players? Turnover in the Dutch league is vey high because clubs need to sell good young players to remain solvent. If you can keep core players for five years there is a chance of creating a team that can compete in the Europa League. Other than AZ, Dutch teams have done poorly there. Even though you don't get as many points as in the CL if you go far enough they can add up. Dutch clubs are famous for flaming out in the qualifying round. Before their financial debacle, Twente were decent but now it's no guarantee they will gain promotion (they were thrashed by Jong Ajax 5-2 last Friday).
     
  11. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    There's also a big churn in the starting line-ups of Belgian clubs and they also need to sell to avoid ending up in the red. Belgium's rise in the rankings has mainly been attributed to a professionalization of the clubs. TBH there was a lot of room for improvement. The Dutch clubs had done this much earlier. Now I'm wondering if they got complacent, were too ambitious and started living beyond their means, scouting/development/coaching not as good as it used to be, ... Hard to tell.

    It's the Eredivisie sub-top that interests me the most. Their revenue from the Dutch TV deal is roughly the same or even higher than what the biggest earners get in Belgium. Budgetwise the sub-top from both countries shouldn't be too far apart, probably the Dutch are ahead (besides more money from their TV deal they also have more matchday income, commercial, etc.).
     
  12. Orange14 repped this.
  13. Real Madrid has a rather heavy programm around the CL confrontation.:thumbsup:
    Wonder what gets the emphasis, CL or league.
     
  14. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    You forgot to add the two leg cup tie against Barca!!! Ajax only have to deal with a deflated Feyenoord team in the Dutch cup.
     
  15. :ROFLMAO:Or they feel they have to put in a double effort on the pitch against you because of the wanker performance against the mighty Excelsior.
     
  16. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    @FSF- the v Germans have a word for this -- schadenfreude!:p
     
  17. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    Why are you guys still posting in the 2017-2018 thread? No need to revisit that nightmare in Europe.


    On PSV's moan ...

    ... Ajax and the KNVB are in violation of the agreements that were made before.

    ... PEC are infuriated and want to take legal action. According to them as well this wasn't agreed upon. It screws over the match-going fans and PEC would have to play 3 games in 8 days while the relegation threat looms. The KNVB made a mess of it. Surely they can take better care of PEC and doing so their cronyism will look less evident, will do less harm.

    Everybody should know before the start of the season how this will be dealt with. It doesn't exactly look impartial when Ajax are given a leg-up mid-season. The KNVB should simply honour the agreements for this season. For future seasons they could/should introduce a rule about postponing games to help teams that are active in Europe. I'd be in favour.

    I'd like the KBVB to help Belgian clubs in Europe too but they didn't (Brugge and Genk had a very hard run of games and this easily could have been prevented by bringing the Brugge v Genk tie forward, both were out of the cup and they had oceans of time). In the past Anderlecht have asked for a sufficient amount of rest days between fixtures but the KBVB didn't even give them one extra day of rest to prepare for Europe. @Orange14 if you look for those complaints, you'll find them.

    Besides, both Ajax and PSV are mainly concerned about the Eredivisie title fight. Ajax could as well stop pretending. Not only do Ajax need a miracle in Madrid but with Red Bull Salzburg advancing in the EL Austria have basically secured 11th place. The direct CL spot isn't even that big of a prize now that qualifying for the groups has been made much easier. And as PSV are massive contributors to Holland's coefficient it's laughable to claim they're keeping Holland from doing well in the rankings, no matter how much you like to spin it.

    TL;DR it reflects poorly on Ajax that they're breaking their word in the hope of derailing PSV's title defence. Ajax asked, and received, unfair preferential treatment from the KNVB while match-going fans and relegation-threatened PEC have been screwed over.
     
  18. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    PEC's president blasts the KNVB and Ajax (linkie in Dutch: how it went down): https://peczwolle.nl/nieuws/door-de-ogen-van-de-veurzitter-53

    Distortion of competition usually is punished severely. Not a good look when the KNVB themselves cause the distortion, reeking of cronyism. PSV agrees with PEC's president that moving the cup tie would have been a lot less harmful. Now PEC will have no games for two weeks and then 3 games in 8 days. PEC don't exactly have a bench as strong as Ajax's nor are their players used to playing 3 games in 8 days.

    A spokesperson from the KNVB doesn't deny that this change to the fixtures list wasn't agreed upon. Also, the KNVB didn't ask PEC's consent (PEC had already declined to move the game though) and the KNVB's initial statement, "before the season all clubs agreed...", has been toned down to "in the spirit of the reform agenda" (the agenda was discussed only a month or so ago):

    "Er is dan ook, dat is duidelijk, door de KNVB niet gezocht naar instemming. Volgens het bestuur betaald voetbal is de beslissing „geheel in de geest van de afspraken en gesprekken rond de ‘veranderagenda’”, aldus een woordvoerder."

    PS I read that PSV were denied a similar request in 2016. Their CL run back then safeguarded Holland's coefficient (without it Holland would been down to only 1 CL spot).
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Care. PSV has never produced a single decent national team player since freakin' Zenden. They are the definition of parasites, free riders and leechers. Sad Catholic farmers team.
     
  20. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    @PuckVanHeel ... don't tell me you prefer Ajax, even looking the other way when the KNVB bobos gift them a favour. Farmers/Boer-uh doesn't tickle your pickle, no problem, but had you down as Anyone But Ajax, my bad. Feyenoord fans showing their love for Ajax gives me the warm and fuzzies TBH (times have changed, can't live in the past after all).

    Mertens is a very decent NT player, thank you :thumbsup: Lozano too. Ronaldo, Romario, Gullit, etc. in the past as well. Didn't RVN(istelrooij) and Van Bommel come after Zenden (Stam around the same time)? Robben is a former PSV player. And so on. After Robben Holland went through a bit of a dry spell. You could finger-wag every club for the dearth of Dutch talent, besides it's in the past now.

    But you do have a point. Not on-topic but I'll entertain it. PSV have to pick up the pieces when others don't do a good job unlocking a talent's potential. Still have PSV poached that many top quality players lately? OTOH Depay is a recent PSV youth product (and currently one of Holland's most valuable players), Bergwijn looks promising and so does Arnaut "Danjuma" Groeneveld (injured now though), even more recent youth products: Malen, Ihatarren, ... PSV's catchment area isn't the greatest, yet the academy is finally bearing fruit though.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    They were also granted some delays in the past 15 years.

    Since then the KNVB and the clubs have wisely changed their policy, instead of quasi ad hoc decisions favoring the big clubs:

    From October:
    https://www.ad.nl/nederlands-voetba...ma-aan-vanwege-cl-duels-ajax-en-psv~aadde80f/

    There are no 'favors'. It is following what was agreed before the competition started, something PSV themselves wanted. Much ado about nothing. This is not a banana republic.

    This is rooted in calimero complex. It are the financiers and consumer might of Holland that has helped the most to make Philips strong. Their most renowned engineers (K. Immink) from 'De Randstad'. That is just how it is, little wonder they moved their HQ to Amsterdam. Without Holland they would be just farmers and peasants indeed. Without the Ajax/Amsterdam players PSV wouldn't have won a UEFA Cup or European Cup. Next.

    As you say the academy seems to be delivering now (after increased investments), and Brabant experienced a big economic boom in the 1990s (something Limburg and Groningen is waiting for).
     
  22. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    So on-topic, your link shows minor delays, how sneaky of you, a couple of hours or a day wasn't a problem.

    "We hebben samen afgesproken dat wedstrijden van Europees spelende teams soms een dag of een paar uur naar voren of achteren kunnen worden verschoven. Prima", laat de PSV-directeur weten aan het Eindhovens Dagblad. Dat de KNVB beslist om Ajax-PEC anderhalve week later dan gepland af te werken, schiet bij Gerbrands in het verkeerde keelgat." De KNVB beslist nu op eigen houtje dat ineens een wedstrijd uit een speelronde wordt geplukt", aldus de 61-jarige Fries. "Hangende de competitie worden ineens spelregels veranderd."

    The KNVB are being reproached for their ad hoc decision. Any proof of an actual policy? I didn't even hear about an agreement for next season, let alone the current one. Instead of clear agreements, good friends ... no policy, plenty of controversy.

    Yep, PSV's academy started showing a profit since the sale of Depay (in the red before that point) and it's on the up since then:

    https://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/van...bal~b3f02f19/?referer=https://www.google.com/

    https://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/de-...eer~b5f28a97/?referer=https://www.google.com/

    Limburg is on the decline last I heard, the country-side is being deserted, and I'm hearing the same about Zeeland (noticed an increase of dutchies moving to Antwerp). Isn't Groningen basically one giant sinkhole, earthquake country now?

    Even back when PSV was a buying club this calimero didn't do too poorly. PSV have plenty of Eredivisie titles as well. And launched quite a few careers. Mind you not only Amsterdam players left PSV for a big club but also Koeman (Barca) or if that's still too close the likes of Robben (Chelsea), Stam (Man Utd), RVN (Man Utd), Cocu (Barca), V.Bommel (Barca), Romario (Barca), Ronaldo (Barca), ... the list goes on. Let's see how PSV fare now the focus has shifted towards youth development. So far it's looking good.
     
  23. By the way, where's the "Helmond Cup"at the moment.
    It isnot with Real, so no chance to get it back from them.
     

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