Dual nationals who could suit up for the US.

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by juvechelsea, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. TxEx

    TxEx Member

    Tottenham Hotspur, Crystal Palace, FC Dallas
    Aug 19, 2016
    DFW
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    At this point kids like Arjano should be speaking to Wolff on a regular basis. He's the one that needs to reach out to as many players and teams as he can to get guys for Olympic Qualifying. Tons of posters poopoo the Olympics but if you want to get dual nationals, or keep kids in the program qualifying for the Olympics and playing in them is a huge advantage. Americans embraced the WNT because they played in the WC and won. They'll do the same to anyone who makes the Olympic squad if the team performs.
     
  2. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only person doing any argument twisting here is you.

    You know damn well Sciaretta's tweet was a response to a tweet directed at him, not to anything Araujo said.

    How is this in any way responsive to anything I said in my earlier post (or anything Sciaretta said in the relevant tweet, for that matter)?
     
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  3. la torre

    la torre Member

    Dec 27, 2008
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Araujo(and many other of these young players, dual national or not) should probably be called up on merit anyways. Is anyone really going to be unhappy if Lovitz, Gonzalez or Lima doesn't make the September roster? That's who Araujo is competing with.

    US Soccers primary focus right now should be on 2026. IMO calling up Bradley and Gonzalez to the national team should be much more controversial than calling up Araujo.
     
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  4. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    It hasn't. Torrado is sporting director of the Mexico Federation. You're crying like Tata was spotted coming from kid's house.
     
  5. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree with the rest but no way I think right now that 2026 is more important than 2022.
     
  6. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Your point isn't unreasonable, but as it pertains to the USMNT, the bolded is opposite of how you present it. Players are interviewing for the full MNT while playing for the YNTs. It's not the other way around.
     
  7. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Earnie should be doing the communicating with all the YNT players, to explain to them what USSF's plan is going forward. Berhalter doesn't need to do that himself. If that sort of thing isn't happening (I have heard nothing to indicate is true, one way or the other), then Earnie needs to get his shit together. But we don't know that's not happening, or is happening. We just know that Berhalter and staff haven't done the communication themselves.
     
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  8. Susaeta

    Susaeta BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 3, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have spoken with multiple players. Not one of them has heard from Stewart. Ever.
     
  9. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    what earnie is actually doing all day must be truly wild
     
  10. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member

    Aug 1, 2014
    The weirdest thing is that Earnie was a dual national who grew up in Holland and was recruited to play for the USMNT prior to the 1994 World Cup. You would think that he, of all people, would be totally on top of the recruiting angle.
     
  11. GiallorossiYank

    GiallorossiYank Member+

    Jan 20, 2011
    NJ/Roma/Napoli
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
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  12. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    From 2008 to 2015 synchs perfectly w/the fallow period of youth development in this country: 1990-1995. If that generation of players couldn’t make a dent in a 5th place finishing hex squad of 2017 why on Earth would Mexico be fighting for said players to make one time switches to a Mexico side that finished first in that same hex, beat defending World Cup champs in their group stage opener (and hell by all rights beat the WC ‘10 Finalist Dutch (who’d go on to make the semis after that last second Robben dive in their R16 match) in the previous tournament. That Mexico side tied Brazil in Brazil, thrashed Croatia, basically beat a Dutch team that would miss back to back WC Finals by a missed penalty in the semis, and then beat the champs in WC ‘18 (before choking). We couldn’t beat Panama, Honduras or T&T’s youth squad on the road w/a WC ticket on the line. Honestly, is it really that hard to understand why Mexico wasn’t fighting tooth and nail for dual Nats that were only on the periphery of the worst USMNT in nearly half a century?

    Clearly Mexico can delineate the difference between an Araujo, a Mendez, a Alvarez, a Llanez or Ledezma, and those ‘90-‘95 scrubs.
     
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  13. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I am not twisting anything. As with most issues, this is a much more complex issue than many are making it. Trying to keep as simple as possible, I will keep it to the arguments being discussed, the facts related to that argument, whose perspective is being considered, and my judgment.

    So Aruajo made statements and it has been translated into two things that mean separate things.
    1. Araujo said Berhalter hadnt contacted him and nobody else had either (I assume he meant since he broke into LAG lineup post u20 WC.
    2. The tweet that Sciaretta responded to included the question of how had JA been "fast tracked"
    3. The tweet also included the claim he was ignored and iad_22201 said: Brian is simply refuting the contention that this player has been ignored.
    1) This one is simple. He hasnt been contacted.

    2) Was he fast tracked? The argument that he has is that he was called up to the u20 and u23s. The arrogant people in the Fed might think this is fast tracking,. JA might think it quite differently. His play since the U20 WC sure shows he had the talent to warrant those call ups like many other younger players in past the have gotten. I dont like the word but he deserved to be with u20s. The reality is he only played 90 mins against US Virgin Islands in WCQ when the team beat their opponents in the other 4 games by a score of 26-2. He did get roughly 120 mins with the u23s over 2 games. He was only available for the u23 camp because Tab hadnt included him in the u20 camp. They seemed to be short on defenders for that camp as it also included a u20 eligible kid coming off his freshman year of college, a kid playing in the 4th tier in Switzerland and now without a team, and a homegrown player who had yet to play an MLS game. The call ups sound nice, but given the circumstances, 3 camps and 3 caps isnt that impressive. I find it hard to label that fast tracked.

    3) the label of "ignored" is the easiest to defend from the Federations perspective. He was a member of a youth team for most of dates there were camps. JA might see it differently. Other than the one game in qualifying where players were rotated, it appears that Tab ignored him during those 9 games. It also appears that Tab ignored him for the Jan and March camps and WC roster until Akinola got injured. The MNT team has ignored him. I can definitely see JA thinking that he was overlooked multiple times and not knowing where he stands with the federation. I think our high end players should be treated like investments (like foreign clubs do) and there should be a regular line of communication...

    So back Sciarretta's tweet(s). I think the one I posted was extremely simple minded and dismissive of the issue. I like to look at issues as they are rather than how someone frames them. I'd think a reporter or journalist or whatever he fashions himself as would want to do the same thing. By him not doing so, I believe his credibility is lessened. I dont think his "facts" were a strong argument that JA was "fast tracked". In the discussion that followed, Sciaretta responded over 10 times and in many of those he stated that text/calls wouldnt change anything. He also posted another tweet with a snarky comment about texting.

    Why would anyone care about these tweets? It is simply because I see people be influenced by writers and other media types. So it bothers me that he would support doing pretty much the exact opposite of what I think we should be doing and is dimisive a situation that is very similar to one that occured two years ago.
     
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  14. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
     
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  15. iad_22201

    iad_22201 Member+

    Jan 2, 2009
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let me summarize this for folks who don't want to read such a lengthy post.

    Yes, my irrational hatred of the fed/media led me to overreact to a completely innocuous tweet.
     
  16. Jazzy Altidore

    Jazzy Altidore Member+

    Sep 2, 2009
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But how many of the Mex-Americans who chose US were good enough to have a shot at Mexico?
     
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  17. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    I disagree. I thought sciaratta's tweets were pretty weak, too. The player's issue (as much as we know it to be an issue), is that the senior team staff hasn't contacted him. Pointing out that he has been with youth teams doesn't help.

    Let's say you are Egg. If you heard the player's quotes in the podcast, and then saw Mexico's technical director was in LA to meet with him, what would you do?
     
  18. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    This whole situation is somewhat reminiscent of those lunatics who argue college athletes shouldn't be paid..."what are they complaining about, they get a FREE college education worth 250k!!!". Well, what if they don't value that? Would you accept the salary at your job in a form of payment that lacks any kind of liquidity? Hey, we're going to pay you in bricks. Sure, you have no way of unloading these and they are useless to you, but i just gave you 200k worth of bricks!

    Clearly, Araujo doesn't see much value in his youth team appearances. He wants to be "paid" in communication with the senior staff. So what is the solution? CONTACT HIM.

    If we lose Dest I will absolutely lose it.
     
  19. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Gasoline meets fire...
     
  20. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Not surprised you see you continue to mischaracterize posts.

    A summary would be nobody from the USMNT has contacted JA, I wouldnt call a player that has JA's talent fast tracked and definitely dont think JA feels that way, and he has been ignored by more than one group of people within the Fed.
     
  21. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    As I detailed over on the other thread, there are two main branches of this discussion. There is the Green branch (Klinsmann) where you go ahead and cap the player as senior MNT and THEN WORRY ABOUT WHAT THEY OFFER, or the current branch (which I think Arena has followed since Landon and Beasley), where it is seen as an affront to the existing roster to elevate too soon, and players are brought along when it is "earned," at the risk of losing them to another team that either values their services higher or does the effort to cap-tie early.

    I think I was showing on the other thread how Arena's obsession with proof positive leads to rosters with several players over 30, whose continued performance is falling off or unreliable, and you end up losing jousts for players who get sick of waiting or not enough apparent interest. And I think I was pointing to, with the Landon and Beasley stuff, how Arena's 2002 team was different because it had that youthful prospect element in it, it wasn't a bunch of old farts one foot off the cliff. I mean go look at his squads and the ages. And I see Berhalter in that same way. Despite the fact his 2 best players are kids.

    I think the concern with intangible "enthusiasm" is silly. The players involved may have lived both places, or mostly someplace else. The tangible, practical version of enthusiasm is how they look on the field. If they play hard and well who cares if they were fence sitting. But you only know that if you cap them. And if someone saw this as a short cut and lacks emotion and it shows up in their play, you cut their butt. But if you lose the player on emotion or delay. that is fairly final, and you may find out that all they wanted was a cap or some attention. A cap or some attention are not that expensive.

    This crap is basically costless. There may be ethical and moral concerns to churning a bunch of dual nationals who maybe get left curbside quickly. They may regret their decision. But from a NT perspective, there is next to no downside in securing a bunch of services and denying other teams, and then reaping whatever value we get. If it works, plus. If they don't turn out, you tried.

    I could understand the handwringng from a moral perspective. I could understand if we had a finite roster with a salary cap. This is not MLS. This is not NCAA. The roster is infinite. Secure your roster and then worry about value or timing. The risk in international play is if they sign up for the other team, you lose them more or less for good. It's a separate concern whether you ever want them playing again. But the primary goal here is to accumulate as much high quality talent as you can, whether developed, jousted, converted. The idea of letting people go either to wait on proven club track records, or because you intangibly and emotionally were not satisfied with their loyalty, is silly. It's politics, or a conservative approach to personnel with risk.

    Again, the only real risks are, who lines up when they start counting, and who you win to be in your pool. We are overcomplicating it. Cap away. I don't understand why we haven't been pitching Efrain and anyone else we can think of, and get them their first cap, and then figure out how they fit in. Unless that particular game counts, there is no real risk to trying.
     
  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    If you wanted to fast track a player the way to do it would be offer them GC and then the Olympic qualifying, if available. They get their quick acceptance, you get them cap-tied, you get a 6 game look, and you figure out what you have. You then can shift them over to U23 for seasoning if need be. That seasoning has the Olympic carrot at the end. This has been done with Landon and Green and others, some combination of an early callup and the U23 team. That the U23 team sucks and doesn't follow through on the Olympics end is a separate issue. It's the package we can offer.

    People are overselling loyalty and merit. The only place where merit matters is on qualifying and world cup rosters. Anyplace else and you are taking each game or roster far too seriously. Those games and rosters should be serving the end of putting together the qualifying and world cup teams. If you are that concerned who wins a roll out carpet friendly in September, or game on a baseball field, and that it must always be the most proven 23 club warriors, with a hand on the scales favoring incumbency, you have lost your mind. Particularly when you aren't the world or regional champion with that attitude.
     
  23. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    He's not into deep dive analysis. I doubt he's even aware of the 1990-1996 developmental apocalypse. It's so lazy.

    All you have to point to is this:

    2009:
    U17 WC: US and Mexico U17 teams crash out in the Round of 16.

    U20 WC: US Crash out in group stage, Mexico failed to qualify.

    2011:
    U17 WC: Mexico Wins the Bronze Medal at the U17 WC (US loses to freaking Uzbekistan, ties New Zealand, and is thrashed by Germany in the R16)

    U20 WC: Mexico Wins the Bronze Medal at the U20 WC (US fails to freaking qualify for the tournament).

    2012 Olympic Tournament: Mexico Wins Gold, US Fails to Qualify.

    2013:
    U17 WC: Mexico Finishes Runner Up, US Fails to Qualify.

    U20 WC: Mexico loses in the R16's, US crash out in the group stage.

    It's not hard to figure out the trend here. Mexico failed to qualify for 1 out of 7 tournaments while the U.S. failed to qualify for 3 out of 7. Mexico made the semifinals in 4 of the 7 tournaments, and the final in 1 out of 7. The US made the semifinals in 0 out of 7 tournaments nor did it make a final appearance in any of them.

    So while Mexico collected 3 medals in 7 tournaments w/the 1989-1996 generation, the United States collected zero medals, and failed to even qualify for tournaments in 2011, 2012, and 2013, the first and only time that's ever happened since these tournaments first appeared if memory serves.

    So Taylor, are you still wondering why Mexico wasn't signing over Dual Nationals back then? Or do you need me to go back to the chalk board and simplify it further for you?
     
  24. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I kind of giggle at the intangible enthusiasm monitoring. When is the last time the team looked like a 110% effort more than the sum of its parts unit whose sheer results and effort would have to be matched? c. 2009-10? Maybe some of Klinsmann up through 2014? You know, I am talking about the ability to beat Brazil or Spain or Italy. With a lot of pieces clicking and effort at max.

    We are acting like people aren't eager enough to be let in our little club when we have a semi-functioning team that doesn't always play hard and is consistently second tier. That is a lower bar than the "pretend this is still a world class team" or even "pretend like this is a well-oiled hustling team that punches above its weight." I mean the 2018 friendly results from murderer's row scheduling, and the 2019 GC final, are pretty consistent. At best we could tie someone. Most of the time we got creamed.

    Put differently, I think we'd be requiring a harsher standard of the migrant than of the incumbent. If you want to demand the dual national be a hair on fire 110% effort loyalist I need to see a different national team on the field when you're requiring this. I miss that effort. But I think it's double standard politics to act like that is what current prospects are walking into.
     
  25. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #200 juvechelsea, Aug 2, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
    I am somewhat amused at making Dest the test case. Dest was the one who got abused by Ukraine. To me he embodies many of the same positives and negatives as Yedlin. He is a Dutch wingback who can go forward better than defend. I don't see how he is the immediate answer to our problems, unless he fixes the defending part.

    If I wanted to rush it would be a player who had a lot easier time with U20 and showed better, who offers something different at a need position. Efrain, who is all but lost but could perhaps be enticed back. Soto, who in theory could switch.

    Fast tracking to me is more for the superstar types. That being said, I would be quite content if we used the GC to trial and cap tie prospect players en masse. But the way that schedule sets up it will often clash with U20 worlds, which presents us with a decision for the youngest ones. For the best ones I would say that it is more worth our effort for them to be senior teamed because for a Weah proving that he could handle age group ball is hardly news. For him and Sargent what we needed to know is could they handle adult CONCACAF and we are no closer to those answers.
     

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