Dual nationals who could suit up for the US.

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by juvechelsea, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. Scotty

    Scotty Member+

    Dec 15, 1999
    Campania
    edcrocker and Winoman repped this.
  2. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    A good piece about Mexican-American Efrain Alvarez. Nuggets in there about the continual tug of war for his services. Berhalter has spoken directly to Efra and his father about the USMNT program. We're still trying. Mexico is aggressive too, and recently invited him to a full Mexico camp. That was declined by the Galaxy. Clearly his father wants him to play for Mexico, but is leaving the decision up to Efra.
    https://www.espn.com/soccer/la-gala...-decisionlife-in-east-laand-being-zlatans-cub
     
  3. Dr.Phil

    Dr.Phil Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He would have to file a 1 time switch to play for the US, is that right?
     
  4. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Correct. He played for Mexico in Concacaf U17 qualifiers.
     
  5. FC Tallavana

    FC Tallavana Member+

    Jul 1, 2004
    La Quinta
    He's not going to play for us. Hope he has a great club career in MLS and royally sucks on the international level.
     
  6. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Cajuste just played a competitive match for the Swedish U-21s. Hope the US coaches new what they were doing with this kid.

    So we're down Gonzalez, Cajuste, and Efra.
     
  7. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think Cajuste wasn’t ever going to be eligible though.
     
  8. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    There was some uncertainty over that.
     
    Eleven Bravo repped this.
  9. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I think this column explains the situation well. He's a citizen, but not FIFA eligible at the moment. He's provisionally cap-tied to Sweden, and could file a one-time switch if he ever becomes FIFA eligible. Logic dictates that's a long shot at the moment.
    http://americansoccernow.com/articl...as-unique-history-but-international-questions

    As for his international future, Cajuste is a dual citizen and holds both American and Swedish passports. His international options, however, are limited at the moment.

    Under FIFA rules for players holding dual nationality, players can play for either country so long as he holds citizenship of the country he chooses and meets at least one of four additional criteria: 1) that the player was born in that country, or 2) that either of the player’s parents were born in that country, or 3) the player has a grandparent born in that country, or 4) the player has lived in that country continuously for at least two years.

    Under this FIFA rule, Cajuste meets none of these requirements as his Haitian-born father acquired his U.S. citizenship via naturalization. Neither Cajuste, nor either of his parents, or any of his grandparents were born in the United States while Cajuste himself has not lived in the United States for two consecutive years.
     
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  10. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    The author of the article provided an update on BS.
     
  11. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    #286 deejay, Sep 25, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
    It's a very complex thing that can be summed up as the following.

    Countries that have multiple associations like Great Britain and the US (Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands are part of the US) have tighter restrictions. The player or a parent or grandparent needs to have been born in the association's territory or have lived there two years.

    So the children of naturalized Americans living abroad will often not be eligible.

    The problem is that this realization seems to be new since Alfredo Morales (Peruvian born father) was capped.

    Edit: Oh, also Robinson would not be eligible. Morales, maybe just maybe could have spent two years in a military base which maybe just maybe makes him eligible.
     
  12. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    he played for mexico at u17 worlds if i remember right

    the sales pitch based on that would be if you come here it won't be sometimes play sometimes sit

    my theory is the first game of LoN against cuba should be used for this purpose, to cap tie people and try experiments. it would be very hard to lose that game at home and the starters would be kept fresh for the pivotal canada match.
     
  13. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FIFA rules don't really go into the "right to claim" as you mention. As long as the citizenship comes from heritage (or place of birth), it appears that's okay. A citizen is a citizen even if he hasn't gone through the process to get the passport. FIFA does address "acquisition of a new nationality" in their statutes, but doesn't really define it as opposed to another nationality that a player holds. There might be a ruling somewhere in all the jumble of bureaucracy, but I'm not aware of it.

    [A]t the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.

    There's certainly some room for interpretation there.
     
  14. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    "Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on
    residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative
    teams of the association of that country."

    the general rule doesn't have a bunch of caveats, it just says a permanent national is eligible.

    "With the exception of the conditions specified in article 8 below, any
    player who has already participated in a match (either in full or in part)
    in an official competition of any category or any type of football for one
    association may not play an international match for a representative team
    of another association."

    this says that playing an official competition cap ties.

    "Any player who refers to art. 5 par. 1 to assume a new nationality and who has not played international football in accordance with art. 5 par. 2 shall be eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfils one of the following conditions: a) He was born on the territory of the relevant association; b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant association; c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant association; d) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant association."

    if you acquire new nationality but have not been capped in an official competition these are the caveats.

    "A player who, under the terms of art. 5, is eligible to represent more than one association on account of his nationality, may play in an international match for one of these associations only if, in addition to having the relevant nationality, he fulfils at least one of the following conditions: a) He was born on the territory of the relevant association; b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant association; c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant association; d) He has lived continuously on the territory of the relevant association for at least two years."

    if you have two choices these are the caveats. bear in mind that "lived continuously" could be understood as historical rather than current. AJ was born here and lived here as a child. that may be your "2 years."

    also, the typical main reason dutch/germans/etc. are "american" is they had a parent born here, serviceman, etc.

    i mean how many people having/trying to get US citizenship are not going to have birthright or a parental citizen or have been here the proverbial 5 years on a green card. there are only so many ways in the door.

    "1. If a player has more than one nationality, or if a player acquires a new
    nationality, or if a player is eligible to play for several representative teams
    due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the association
    for which he is eligible to play international matches to the association of
    another country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following
    conditions:
    76 III. ELIGIBILITY TO PLAY FOR REPRESENTATIVE TEAMS
    a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official
    competition at “A” international level for his current association, and at
    the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match
    in an official competition for his current association, he already had the
    nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.
    b) He is not permitted to play for his new association in any competition in
    which he has already played for his previous association.
    2. If a player who has been fielded by his association in an international
    match in accordance with art. 5 par. 2 permanently loses the nationality
    of that country without his consent or against his will due to a decision by
    a government authority, he may request permission to play for another
    association whose nationality he already has or has acquired."

    one time switch rules.
     
  15. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i know i hear people routinely argue against it, but actually, the one time switch rule refers to, "if a player acquires a new nationality...." so under that i actually don't think to switch you have to have had a historical second citizenship when capped. this allows for "new."

    the problem is often when someone gains new they already were cap tied, or they defected but the old team didn't declare them persona non grata and pretends to want them back.
     
  16. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is just not true.

    FIFA Article 6 was designed to, and has been held up by the CAS to apply only to settle inter-territory associations conflicts. Article 6 cannot be used to deny a player eligibility to represent a nationality if the player is eligible under article 5.
     
  17. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    the issue i see is when we do spend $ on DPs we generally don't buy jozy, we buy foreign. so the incentives right now are to buy your 9s and 10s abroad. that then creates a problem for our NT of having little or no room for domestic MLS players who start at key positions and are highly productive. so just about anyone we pull from MLS at those spots is either playing out of position or a second rate workhorse.

    we are churning everything else out but at about 18 the incentives are to become a "two way type" or "6" or "winger." we cope at "9" but I think "10" is where the mis-incentives show up.
     
  18. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    so you're saying the dual national rules only apply in these sort of "home nations" (UK, PR) disputes where it's really one big country and you could be born one side of the "border," parents move other side of the border while a child, etc.

    andy dorman comes to mind. with his history he could probably represent about 3 countries if they didn't have the gentleman's agreement. people like nacho come over to scotland periodically and get citizenship but aren't allowed to play.
     
  19. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    olympic quali is well into next year and to me is a second tier priority. it can also be used as a lame weah/sargent excuse to pawn off players who get left off a senior team controversially. "but don't give me grief in the press for their senior omission because i sent them off to the U23 camp." except when U23 qualifying comes around is there any hope of their actual release.

    with our current leak problems (ie we're losing players) where we're struggling with dual nationals, a bright coach would use cuba to tie down a bunch of them. low risk game, official competition.

    if their response to that kind of enticement is to run away to preserve flexibility, they shouldn't be a focus of attention anyway. except the very best like alvarez. if dest after getting burned twice wants to go test the waters, fine, but we're going to audition your replacement while you're skipping.
     
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  20. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We discussed this in the Morales NT thread, but CAS has ruled that Article 6 is strictly about those 7 countries that have more than one NT. I went for a long time assuming the first paragraph was about dual nationals as a whole and the 2nd about the "home nations" issue, because it seemed like a lot of effort to define who was eligible *just* for those 7 countries. There isn't a lot of definition and clarity in these articles, which can lead to some confusion and debate over what "new" means.
     
  21. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #296 juvechelsea, Sep 25, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
    but the one time switch rule refers to "new nationality" or words to that effect. i thought what you're saying was true but it's not what the one time switch rule actually says. and he's saying the separate dual nationals rule is more a home nations thing where a single country has multiple teams recognized by fifa. like we have guam and PR, there are 4 home nations plus places like gibraltar, some of the french departments have teams and others only contest concacaf, holland and curacao/suriname, etc. that technically you have a french or american or UK passport. but your parents move across one of the internal divides, or you slide across to play soccer. you would still be a citizen both sides of the line in the same country but which of the competing soccer nations can you represent. way i read this under his gloss, if you have UK citizenship, born in england, move to scotland, but have no family relationship to there, and haven't worked and played there 2 years, even if there wasn't a gentleman's agreement you can't represent.......even though technically there is no distinct passport.

    cause there is a very easy response here, which is, i am a UK citizen living and playing in scotland. setting aside their agreed ground rules, why shouldn't i be eligible.
     
  22. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, but we don't know how FIFA defines "new nationality." The rule was primarily for players who naturalize -- that is, don't have a connection to the country they are playing in. But a player who is born with Italian citizenship, even lacking the current passport, should be able to be considered for Italy. Seems like a bit of an unfair advantage since there isn't a rule defining how far back citizenship can go for the "non-home nations" countries.
     
  23. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    Exactly. They ones that are talking about being approached, and "open," that have been in our development system. Offer them a captie-ing call up (and get them in the match). If they are "undecided" that tells us where to devote our resources.

    Imo, the DP rules should be changed so that a team can only sign 1 DP per level of the formation. One attacking player, one midfielder, one defender.

    Yes, the lines can be blurred, but the team can notify the league, and the league can make a judgment on it before the signing. Do something similar with TAM. But, those things would require MLS giving a f*ck about the NT. My bad.
     
  24. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #299 juvechelsea, Sep 25, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
    i think they would understand it as regulating naturalized players. i want to say they would understand someone with a birth right as merely picking up a passport they already were entitled to. AJ may not have his passport or citizenship document when he heads away, but the minute he was born here he was already a citizen. when you get that passport, it's a confirmation as opposed to a conversion. whereas for someone else that is you becoming a citizen at that point in time.

    kind of like in a political irony mccain (born in the panama canal zone) and ted cruz (canada) are deemed natural born and obama is the one you hear about. we use the fiction that once they prove they should have been citizens from day 1, they always were one.

    in other -- olympic -- sports, there are people who serially represent different countries. sometimes due to turmoil changing the relevant name of their country, and some places like qatar seem to almost buy athletes in sports that allow it. track and field comes to mind. when we are regulating naturalization i think that's what were after, is countries where some minister can just say poof you are a citizen, while dangling a stipend or an expensive contract in their oil money league. oh, if we're playing that game, you weren't born there, you don't have family from there, you haven't even lived there 2 years. the caveats from the rule that you won't meet. at least not for a few years.

    that and i think it provides a framework for the home nations type disputes when there is no existing agreement to sort it out first. when you look at a team like curacao that to me actually seems like a growing issue as you have more and more players from small countries that go play in the proverbial motherland. most of curacao plays in holland. in theory might have a dutch citizenship claim. do we allow that? but that sort of feeding back and forth is why to me the rest of concacaf is catching up. if the whole team is playing abroad or in their home league, they professionalize and it's kind of like for them like when we started MLS.
     
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  25. BostonRed

    BostonRed Member+

    Oct 9, 2011
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most other sports feds use the "passport = eligible rule" with some minor rules on waiting 1-2 years between changes. Check out the Qatari handball team if you want to see an example of passport abuse.
     

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