Don't tell me that the VAR Thread is still going?

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by EruditeHobo, Jun 23, 2019.

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  1. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    Then again a little later. This was deemed no offside and a goal. The ball went directly in from this kick. Perhaps a touch (Owen Gole) from Dier. 2nd white from top.

    image.jpg
     
  2. newterp

    newterp Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 6, 2007
    North Potomac, MD
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The second pic is on rigt
     
  3. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    Huh?
     
  4. newterp

    newterp Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 6, 2007
    North Potomac, MD
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The second pic is on rigt
    sorry frozen hands at my son's tournament.

    Second picture there looks onside right? Was there a controversy?
     
  5. burning247

    burning247 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    England
    Sep 16, 2000
    Dallas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I would say they're both on but what do I know?
     
  6. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    Yeah, was on. Bit of a wait because it looked as close as the one they called off.

    S u b j e c t i v n e s s.
     
  7. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    We need you manning the TV.
     
  8. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Trent handball could have been given. I guess no clear and obvious error, because the ref was looking right at it and said no?

    2nd Trent handball Pep was whining about was not a handball at all.

    Sheffield offside, looks like the closest one yet. Need to get to summer and reassess the offside rule, and maybe the language about “clear and obvious”.
     
  9. newterp

    newterp Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 6, 2007
    North Potomac, MD
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    On the Trent handball - it hit Silva’s arm first (attacker) and then changed course to hit Trent. I’m still confused how it could be given? Other than the referees are ********ing crazy so you never know.
     
  10. burning247

    burning247 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    England
    Sep 16, 2000
    Dallas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I think the worst case scenario out of that one would have been the ref called the PK, they go to VAR and see that Bernardo handled it first. So we'd get a free kick but we would've never seen that fabulous Fab strike.
     
  11. Buffonfan

    Buffonfan Member

    Jun 26, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    So Mr. OP, Sir EruditeHobo, was Salah offside to you?

    Anyways, congrads on the 9 points clear. I would be damn confident right now, this might be it, the year!
     
  12. delaynomo

    delaynomo Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    VAR clearly showed him onside.
     
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  13. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a fair point, I don’t know either. Maybe there’s some language in the rule keeping it from being called... I’m too lazy to check.
     
  14. delaynomo

    delaynomo Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Exactly.

    Facts of the case: the ball first hit Silva's arm which then deflected the ball onto TAA's arm.

    In theory, either handball could be deemed "intentional" or "accidental".

    This gives four possible scenarios/combinations:

    1. Intentional/Intentional - if Silva's (the first) was intentional, outcome is FK to Liverpool.

    2. Intentional/Accidental - if Silva's (the first) was intentional, outcome is FK to Liverpool (or ref can opt to play advantage)

    3. Accidental/Intentional - Silva's accidental handball created a goal scoring opportunity (a penalty). Therefore outcome is FK to Liverpool (under new rules).

    4. Accidental/Accidental - play on! This was the stated ruling of the ref and VAR.

    So it is conceivable play could have been stopped and a FK awarded to Liverpool.

    The important thing to note is NONE of the four possible scenarios result in a penalty to ManC.

    Note: I believe everyone agrees Silva's handball was accidental, so only scenarios 3 and 4 actually apply in practice.
     
  15. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That’s compelling...
     
  16. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Best outcome would have been...

    Ref thinks for a moment
    Blows for a pen
    They score
    But ref says 'nope"
    Points to Silva's arm
    Goal disallowed

    Would love to see Pep react to THAT :)
     
  17. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. el-capitano

    el-capitano Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 30, 2005
    Sydney
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    You gotta get up to date ;)

    [​IMG]
     
  19. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Cappy - I don't think you quite understood the point.;)
     
  20. Samarkand

    Samarkand Member+

    May 28, 2001
    This isn't VAR necessarily, but can anyone explain why Silva's handball wasn't called? Maybe this is where I have it wrong, but I thought ALL attacking handballs in the box, intentional or no, were now deemed a foul. If this is correct, why wasn't it called?

    Presuming that as it wasn't called it means that the ball was still live, good, etc. Silva's handball notwithstanding?
     
  21. burning247

    burning247 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    England
    Sep 16, 2000
    Dallas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I think that if it was seen (was it?) or if it resulted in a goal, it would have been. That rule usually only applies to when a goal is scored. There can be no handling of the ball (regardless of fault), by the attacking team, in the build up to the goal.
     
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  22. delaynomo

    delaynomo Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    It's a foul if it leads to a goal or a goal scoring opportunity.
     
    Samarkand repped this.
  23. Samarkand

    Samarkand Member+

    May 28, 2001
    Ahh! Thanks.

    But we’re now getting close to quantifying the number of angels on a pinhead. But what we now have is handball with subclauses.

    1. Firstly, it can only be retrospectively called. As in we have to wait to see how the action plays out before it’s decided whether or not it’s a foul.

    2. It’s not a foul if it doesn’t lead to a goal/goal scoring opportunity, but coming off the hand of an attacker changes the trajectory, which puts the defender at a further disadvantage.

    3. It’s not equally applied because if there’s any handball in the buildup by the attacking team (even if it’s the old fashioned ball-to-hand), then it’s called, but not so by a defender.

    VAR has its problems, teething largely, I believe and they will sort themselves out and it will become part of the game, but this handball rule will be changed.
     
  24. delaynomo

    delaynomo Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    1. Firstly, it can only be retrospectively called. As in we have to wait to see how the action plays out before it’s decided whether or not it’s a foul.

    Not really a problem?

    2. It’s not a foul if it doesn’t lead to a goal/goal scoring opportunity, but coming off the hand of an attacker changes the trajectory, which puts the defender at a further disadvantage.

    Doesn't really matter as the attacking team can't score? Unless it's somehow much later in a sequence of play in which case the defending side has already had it's chance to defend?

    3. It’s not equally applied because if there’s any handball in the buildup by the attacking team (even if it’s the old fashioned ball-to-hand), then it’s called, but not so by a defender.

    Doesn't really matter since it's the same for both sides? Just a rule change that needs getting used to.
     
  25. Samarkand

    Samarkand Member+

    May 28, 2001
    No, fair enough, if that's the way they want to handle it, but it's the only rule that gets that treatment/exemption.

    It's not a foul unless a goal is scored, then it is a foul. But only if it happens in the box, because accidental handball aka ball to hand is not punished anywhere else on the field.

    But hey! It's their ball, their game, their rules; it just strikes me as a solution in search of a problem. The old accidental handball had this covered and I say this as someone who is generally in favor of VAR.
     

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