Donovan: Stars and Stripes Foreverton [R]

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Friedel'sAccent, Dec 18, 2009.

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  1. fingersave

    fingersave Member

    Sep 28, 2009
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didnt intimate that Landon was an equivalent player to Ribery or Tevez or Ronaldo or any of the other big money attacking players in the world. What I said that he was an outstanding player, which is true.

    You would have expected MLS to be a walk in the park for Angel or Beckham, but those players havent been near the quality of someone like Schelloto or Donovan in MLS. Players take to different leagues differently. Because Donovan didnt push aside Luca Toni or Ribery doesnt mean that he wont be a standout at Everton.
     
  2. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I think the gap between the premiership and MLS isn't as wide as the Big Soccer intelligentsia thinks it is. The gap between the bottom half of the premiership and the championship is pretty thin.........and even further down to league one teams like Leeds and Charlton.

    I think there are plenty of MLS players that could play in the premiership. Not on Arsenal or Chelsea, but at other clubs. The problem is they don't qualify for work permits. Simple as that. Have people seen some of the garbage that clubs like Wolves bring off the bench? And you're telling me those guys are better than Ricordo Clark, Stuart Holden, etc? I don't think so.

    I was surprised, however, by how well Donovan played in his first game at Everton. We're always told how players need time to adjust to the pace and style of play of the English game. But Donovan stepped right in, and didn't miss a beat.

    But I'm curious to see how Donovan plays against the Burnley's and Bolton's of the world. Arsenal will let you play. They just strive to outplay you. (on most occasions). This is why I'm so happy that LD is in Europe. We can stop telling people how good he is. They can see with their own eyes.
     
  3. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    To be fair, as I've already mentioned, that was partly because he was playing wide and had more time and space to play. It also has to be said that it was only one game.

    As I said earlier, let's see how things go from here on, eh?!
     
  4. StillKickin

    StillKickin Member+

    Austin FC
    Dec 17, 2002
    Texas
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    True, it's only one game.

    But I can absolutely guarantee you that had Landon come on the field and laid an egg and looked completely out of his element, there would be plenty of "experts" coming on here saying a whole lot of nasty things.

    So I'm going to enjoy this. I'm really looking forward to the next game.

    (And I'm fully expecting the "experts" to show up when Landon has a less than stellar outing during his 10 weeks...which is bound to happen at some point.)
     
  5. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I've heard that comment on here many, many times but the thing to bear in mind is that the physical attributes of the kind of guy that'll be a top basketball or US football player aren't going to suit him to be a great soccer player. I don't know but I'd guess that most US basketball players are... what? 6'6"? Something like that. For American football the height isn't as important but the musculature is so, again, the body type is completely different.

    The amount of times I've heard comments on here about, 'If basketball player 'X' or gridiron player 'Y' played soccer they'd be world beaters', is beyond counting and, generally, it's almost NEVER true. The average soccer player is built more like a middle-weight fighter than either of those two sports and the sport is COMPLETELY different.

    So I understand what you're saying, (that if more effort were put into producing great soccer players you would - surprise, surprise - produce more great soccer players), but the idea that particular athletes can be 'adapted' from those two sports, (in particular), is probably wide of the mark.

    Of course, to be fair, you're probably not saying that. I'm just saying that's a comment I've heard before ... that's all :)
     
  6. SoccerKowboy

    SoccerKowboy BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 13, 2007
    Virginia, USA
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't agree with this. I would have three years ago (and actually, so did even some English coaches like McLaren), but I think the gap has widened considerably since then. There is much more money and international talent in the EPL that even three years ago. I don't think the best MLS teams would be able to compete day in and day out with even teams like West Ham, Hull, Newcastle, Cardiff, etc.

    I think the thinking at that time was that MLS was on the level of the bottom ten of the EPL, and three years ago that may have been reasonable. Just looks at some of those teams: Birmingham, Sanchez's Fulham, of course Derby, etc. But look at the talent on some of the bottom feeding teams in the EPL: Carlton Cole, Upson, Spector, Diamanti, Franco, Altidore, Hunt, Cohen, Kevin Davies, Matthew Taylor, Belhadj, Boateng, Figueroa, Rodallega, etc. I'm sure I've missed several noteworthy players. All of these guys are above MLS level.
     
  7. wsmaugham

    wsmaugham Member+

    Apr 3, 2002
    Chicago
    To be honest Andy, you're not quite right here IMO. Particularly as it relates to American football, the body type argument doesn't fly. These kids aren't born ripped with muscle, U.S. sporting culture inculcates kids to lift weights and take supplements legal and illegal to put on the kind of mass that makes you think they wouldn't be right for soccer. If these kids made soccer their priority, yeah they'd be naturally bigger and faster, but nothing like the specimens that are needed for the NFL. Think the difference between a guy who is 6'2" 175-180 and one that is 220 lbs. who runs a 10.2 second 100m and is blessed with fantastic lateral quickness and coordination. Many of these guys would be perfect for "proper football" as you'd put it (I'm not talking about the behemoths in the trenches). Granted, not every gifted athlete at a "soccer size" is going to have all the tangibles and intangibles required to be a top class professional, but just taking into account the massive numbers and sporting culture of the States and you're looking at producing some top notch talent if the sport had a bigger cultural footprint here.

    Let's put it this way, there are plenty of Gabby Agbonlahor types over here, they just don't play the same game.
     
  8. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Well, it has to be said that the smaller fellas in gridiron, if they took the game up early enough, would be better fits than the basketball ones. That's certainly true.

    The problem as I see it is that you have to start playing the game at a VERY early age to be any good at it.

    In that regard, gentleman, I give you 'exhibit 'A'

    [​IMG]

    :D

    I must have been about 5 when that picture was taken and I'd imagine that every single player in single every league in the world has a similar one.

    So I suppose that's the point I'm making. Not that a difference can't be made but that the skill-set required for soccer, (because it uses the feet which require enormous amounts of practice as opposed to the hands that are more natural), is very, very different from those of gridiron and basketball.

    IOW that how good an athlete someone is, is irrelevant if he can't kick the ball properly and that takes YEARS!!! My argument is thus with the idea that you're losing something if specific basketball or gridiron players don't play soccer. In all honesty I'D probably be more useful as a team-mate than some of them and I'm only a few years from death :D
     
  9. jclampit

    jclampit Member

    Apr 12, 2002
    Yes. The skill position players soaked up by football might make great soccer athletes, whether we're talking about a Gooch type in defense or a Barry Sanders running at a scared defender. The quick, fluid hips required by a defensive back, and the burst and vision required by running backs, would be useful. Size, speed, quickness and strength are nice things to have, especially as soccer's become more athletic around the globe.

    The intersection of that kind of athleticism and technical skill (which a certain subset of athletes should naturally have an aptitude for), assuming proper development at an early enough age and motivation, would be something to see. (Imagine how much more interesting Freddy Adu might be to teams if he were 6" taller and faster.)

    We have Gooch, Charlie Davies, Landon and Jozy. It would be interesting to see what we'd have w/ a much larger, more athletic pool to draw from. (Can anyone imagine Michael Jordan in goal, making himself big, leaping to snag crosses, making diving saves? :) It's not realistic, but it's fun to do.)

    Quick illustrative story... A German friend was describing a monster of a man to American friends, saying, "My gosh, he looked like a soccer player!". The Americans envisioned someone 5'8" w/ kind of stocky thighs, rather than the 6'5" brick wall he had in mind.
     
  10. wsmaugham

    wsmaugham Member+

    Apr 3, 2002
    Chicago
    There's nothing here I disagree with and thought it was pretty clear from my post that I don't think merely being a "great athlete" translates to being a "great soccer player". The point was, if soccer had the cache that American football did, those kids would be kicking the ball from 5, with the infrastructure and attention required to give them all the support they'd need to succeed. It's a numbers game- sporting culture to rival any nation + massive population = quite a few great players.
     
  11. Lascho

    Lascho Member+

    Sep 1, 2008
    Hannover, Germany
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    I think he would have said "he looked like a handball player"... if you had any idea what a German handball player is. And no, I'm not talking about Frings.;)
    Rather these guys:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Bruce S

    Bruce S Member+

    Sep 10, 1999
    I read this often here so let me say it clearly: Gooch is not a great athlete. He is way above average in size and strength, but he is well below average in quickness and coordination, at least for a top soccer player. These are all "athletic abilities". Most top football players would not make good soccer players because they lack lateral quickness or are just too tall/big. There was a show in the late70s/80s called superstars and they matched athletes from different sports in athletic skills that none of them played. I recall the soccer players destroying the football and basketball players.
     
  13. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Agreed... it's a numbers game, as you say.
    I remember superstars well :)

    Strangely enough that was one of my first experiences of watching an American gridiron footballer trying to kick a football towards a goal. It was hilarious :D I mean, I've never SEEN anyone so uncoordinated. It was amazing the fella could even walk, let alone play a sport. :D

    Obviously, that could be coached if he'd started playing earlier but it doesn't alter the fact that the majority of the best players in Europe, South America, etc, (i.e. outside the States), are NOT that large. The majority of them are average height and build, i.e. 5'7" - 6'2" and between 140-170lb. Just to choose two of the best...

    Cristiano Ronaldo is 6'1" and 165lb
    Lionel Messi is 5'7" and 147 lb

    And, don't forget, there's nothing to stop fellas who are 6'8" and 200lb playing the game. In fact, some DO play the game but, generally speaking, as you say, they're too big to be able to turn and accelerate quickly to be effective.

    So I think that, almost REGARDLESS of the numbers of people you had playing the game at an early age in the states, the percentages, (as opposed to the numbers), coming through that were huge behemoths, (that were any good, anyway), wouldn't be any higher than it is now.
     
  14. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    A lot of these American football players (in the "skill positions" at least) are guys of normal height who have spent a good 8 years and more eating a lot and bulking up with weights. If they play soccer they simply won't do that to the same extent.
     
  15. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Soccer is more of a speed/agility/endurance sport. Football a speed/strength/size, basketball a height/quickness sport. There is of course overlap, as Steve Nash is a hell of a basketball player and by all accounts was a talented soccer player. But their is of course, cases of clear incompatibility, as Lionel Messi would struggle to be a professional in any other major American sport.

    My point being, its obvious that some athletes will be stolen from soccer (and be stolen by soccer in coming years), but this only occurs in the subset of atheletes that have both the talent and drive to succeed. Keep that last part in mind to, just because a guy could play pro-football instead of soccer doesnt mean that that athlete is going to like football enough to succeed in football. Not have soccer may just mean that he would never be able to fulfill his pro-level athletic talent.
     
  16. Bruce S

    Bruce S Member+

    Sep 10, 1999
    it is a fantasy that most football/basketball/baseball platers would be good soccer players. I make one exception: Kobe Bryant. I have seen him juggling a soccer ball and kicking. He can definitely play. Of course he did grow up in Italy :) He COULD be a giant center-forward.
     
  17. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It won't make them shorter though, will it. :D

    Anyway, like I say, I agree that having more people playing the game would create more and better players. I'm just saying there's no reason to suggest they'd be any different body types than players elsewhere. That's all.
     
  18. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are definate limits. You have to have the skeletal structure to support that kind of muscle. Some guys are 6'+ and are two narrow shouldered/hipped to really push up to 200lbs+ needed to play in the nfl.
     
  19. Bruce S

    Bruce S Member+

    Sep 10, 1999
    and most nfl players have nowhere near the agility to be a pro soccer player.
     
  20. gmonn

    gmonn Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    The entire running back and cornerback pool of the United States would supply some incredibly agile and fast soccer players.
     
  21. wsmaugham

    wsmaugham Member+

    Apr 3, 2002
    Chicago
    I agree that taken as a whole, a select number would have the goods to become top class soccer players. But again, there are many more intangibles in soccer than in football, where "specialists" abound and the game is regimented.
     
  22. Aaryque

    Aaryque Member

    Apr 26, 2007
    Norcal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Obviously different spots require different skill sets. And to take it deeper, different positions within the same sport require different skill sets. Clearly the heavy legs and strong arms of most NFL QBs are not things that translate to soccer well. That said the natural quickness, athleticism, pace and, above all, agility and reaction time that it takes to succeed as a cornerback would translate precisely to soccer. RBs, because of the emphasis on footwork and ability to change direction, would also work. The point being you can't just talk about the average NFL player because skills and physical make-up vary to such a huge degree from one position to another. Go back in time and put a soccer ball in Chris Paul's crib instead of a basketball and you have something. Do the same to Shaq and you've got nothing.

    The point isn't that every NFL and NBA player could be great at soccer, it's that if all athletes in the US grew up playing soccer, those whose skills sets do suit the beautiful game would also have the technical foundation and love to succeed. And keep in mind, it's not just that Chris Paul could be a great soccer player given the right foundation. It's that there would be more good players out there providing better competition for each other. One of the problems right now, is that the Donovans and Adus are so few and far between, that they don't find much competition at lower levels. Meaning they aren't pushed to improve as rapidly as they would be if they had other Donovans and Adus to compete against. Or at least other Conveys and Quarantas.
     
  23. Grumpy in LA

    Grumpy in LA Bringing It Since 1807™

    Sep 10, 2007
    Chicago
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Are we really talking about this again?

    Can't we at least do it on an Adu thread?
     
  24. jclampit

    jclampit Member

    Apr 12, 2002
    Point taken regarding Gooch.

    Regarding football, this is why I specifically referred to skill position players with burst and fluid hips.

    (And yeah, I remember superstars. :))
     
  25. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you are saying only one guy in the NBA could have developed into a soccer player based upon the fact that the only guy in the NBA who has any soccer experience to your knowledge looks like he can play?

    THIS is what makes you think that none of the other guys, if they had equal soccer experience, would be any good??? Not logical......

    I don't think most would be good soccer players, but many who are in the subgroup where they are not overly mis-sized for the sport,could with proper training.
     

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