Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Really, really disappointing. Not convinced of that one. They had a relatively easy run to the final, but Ireland played very very well against them as did the US.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Really, really disappointing. What are you aiming at? Germany was surely favourite against all opponents they played except Brazil (and maybe Ireland - at least the draw was predictable). This doesn't change the fact that Germany isn't the second best nation in the world; Spain, Italy, France, Netherlands, England or Argentina are all teams being better than Germany regarding the quality.
Let's just face it--LD's mental toughness isn't up to par with his talent. JOB wasn't babied by Ajax and in some ways Dutch and German culture are similar. There's no crime in it--some guys just stay super sensitive mama's(and sisters?) boys their whole lives. Different strokes for different folks. But the recurring theme is that it's always someone else's fault. Kid needs to learn how to take a look in the mirror. Dunno, maybe it's just me--great grandfather was Pennsylvania 'Deutsche' and great grandmother was a Kuykendahl. At some point you've got to learn how to suck it up and fight.
All of these comparisons between JOB and Donovan seem to overlook one crucial point. When JOB wasn't quite ready to play at Ajax, they loaned him to Utrecht, another 1st division club. JOB kind of came into his own there before coming back to Ajax. As I recall, Donovan wanted to be loaned to a BL1 or BL2 club, but it never happened. He kept playing with Leverkusen's reserves in the 4th division. The loan to MLS/San Jose took some doing while Leverkusen seemed content to continue playing Donovan in the 4th division. He clearly could have played at a higher level, no? I'm not saying this vindicates anyone or explains anything, just bringing more information out that, for me anyway, calls into question whether Donovan's and O'Brien's situations are all that similar. I'm willing to be that had Donovan gone to Ajax, he would have had a very different experience.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Really, really disappointing. Really? And you want to be a lawyer? Here goes. My point is tht Germany did NOT overachieve at the World Cup. The reason? Germany beat those teams that it had more talent than (everyone but Brazil) and lost to the team that had more talent than it (BRAZIL). When you said Germany overachieved, you were wrong. Now if you want to argue that Germany got lucky with all of the better teams falling to their own or the stupidity of others, I might agreee. But that is not overachieving.
Where do you come up with this stuff? Let's face it, your only definition of success is playing in Europe. Was JOB in a situation he found miserable from the beginning? If not, it's not a good comparison.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Really, really disappointing. Oh, come on, we're not even differing in the matter and just having different perspectives. Without looking at the schedule I also thought that Germany would be out in the quarter final at the latest. When I went through the tournament in my head, I realised that they basically can't fail before the semifinal and I predicted them fourth because of dropping there against Spain or Italy. As Korea did this job for us, we thankfully accepted it and had a further easy game to the finals. Basically I am telling your view to all Germans who tend to forget the reality. One of my most hated sentences is "If someone had told us before, we would have called him crazy" (and all the variations of it) - I'm always answering "If someone had told us about these opponents before, then I would want to see the one in Germany not claiming to make the final". In this sense you are right. But as you said, seeing it from the outcome - becoming Vice-World Champion - this is definitely overachieving.
I believe JOB wasn't loaned until he was 20 or 21, IIRC, but I don't think there is much comparison between the Ajax youth system and the one at BL. The Ajax program is setup to help the players develop, not just to be a talent warehouse like BL. I don't think the 2 situations can be fairly compared, unless you want to compare the original decision each player made about which team to sign with.
Question to the cogniscenti: I had always been under the impression (why I don't know) that one of the reasons LD was playing for BL's reserves is he had a "no-loan" or "no-loan without approval" clause in his contract. Was I simply hallucinating (again) or is there some basis for this? Thanks in advance.
Right on! He was such a puzzy in the WC, playing all but 16 minutes, scoring two goals, never ever stopping until the final whistle. We need people tougher than he.
What are you talking about? You write as if he has acted like a spoiled child everywhere he's been, blaming everyone for his failures. He fits in very well in SJ w/coach and team, says nothing but nice things about the club, city, and leaugue. And feels he is doing what is necessary to carry the torch of American soccer right now. I think he is handling the whole situation with grace and maturity, and the people who criticize him are the ones who are projecting their own set of values onto him. Lets look at the facts. 1. LD is young and unhappy at his club, and gets a loan deal. -- VERY common in the modern game. 2. LD does well with his loan-club, and wants to stay. -- Again, VERY common situation for professional players. And the higher profile players request outright transfers. It has still never been confirmed that is what he is doing. Now, based on his improvement and success in MLS, he gets a shot at the WC, plays, performs well, plays important role in the teams success. Then, wants to help promote the league that fostered this success (and in the meantime enjoy his life). How can you possibly say that he has not looked in the mirror? That is exactly what he is doing: taking responsibility for his own happiness. And the admirable part, is that he is not trying to live up to anyone's standards except his own. I really think people have a problem with him talking about things like his feelings, and his family relationships. Get over it. It in no way means he is a sissy or not confident. You don't think he is confident? Please. Try joining us this century where men aren't afraid to express themselves. And finally, the point that just about everyone in all of these million threads seems to ignore: Just because he stays in MLS this year, doesn't mean he will NEVER take his game overseas.
Dark Knight--Of course Europe is the place to be. But I guess you think MLS is up to the standards of play in the Champion's League? Where do you come up with that stuff? Tubby--expressing your feelings as a man has nothing to do with buckling down and learning how to work your way through imperfect situations. Nothing at all. To me it looks like the type of player that he is--he has to feel like everything's perfect for him to be his best. That's fine and dandy, and apparently Ronaldo's the same way(he really rewarded Inter for waiting on him, didn't he?). But players of JOB's ilk will always be my favorite. JOB had a potentially career ending injury(toe) that he worked through in addition to the homesickness. Grover Gibson toughed it out also. Like I said different strokes for different folks.
Did JOB cry about not getting a chance with the first team? He wasn't loaned out until he was 20 or so to Utrecht IIRC. But since Landon was god's gift to U17 players he had a right to sniff time with the first team? Please.
Wanderer - why reduce things to such simplistic terms and overlook all the ways the comparisons don't work? Maybe you are happy with where JOB is, and I think it's great the experience he will get this year, but I'm not sure I wouldn't rather have him playing centrally for a mid-table team (in a better league) than left back for Ajax. I personally think JOB is only an average left back, but he could become a great midfielder. Aren't you the one that wants Americans to be less about hard work and more about skill? How about considering other possibilities, such as, if he hadn't come back, he wouldn't have had a chance at the World Cup squad. Do you think maybe this occurred to him in his decision to return? Would he have been better off to plod along in Germany without World Cup experience? Heck, Jovan Kirovski had this vaunted Champion's League experience, and he couldn't make our squad. Why not attack Reyna for staying in college instead of going to Barcelona? Is he a mental wimp next to your man GI-JOB?
In what way is the Donovan and JOB situation different? Please do explain. JOB wasn't as highly rated as an U17 prospect, that's about the only difference I see. Please point out the other differences. This has nothing to do with where JOB is now. That's completely irrelevant and another thread. This is not about what he did before the WC.....it's what he's doing after it when Leverkusen says that they want him back. If he went back now he might have to stick it out a year or so--so what, if the payoff is being on one of the best teams in the world. Of course shortsighted people can't see that. I and a number of other posters before the BS crash did attack Reyna for turning down Barcelona. Of course some people think being the man at UVA is comparable to working your way through the reserve/youth set-up of Barcelona. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA. To answer your question--did Reyna have the nut sack to leave his family behind at 16? Or 18 like Gibson did? Nope. So yes, I guess you could say that he isn't as tough mentally compared to those two.
Do you allow for the possibility that going to BL could stunt LD's growth as some argue that staying with big clubs stunted JK's? We probably agree that LD isn't good enough to start right now, what if he still isn't after a couple of years? In my opinion, what would be best for LD at this point is to stay in MLS or play for a low/mid-table team in one of the big 3 or 4 leagues. Sure, sitting on the bench at BL may be good for him, but I think playing regularly is a better choice. I'm going to let the whole mental toughness argument go, because I just don't get/don't agree with your views on what mental toughness is.
JOB talks about adjusting to Europe: http://www.ajax-usa.com/ajax/team/j_obrien/fan_interview_apr2002/
I thought he had to go back to Bayer Leverkusen? Boy these international break weekends are a drag. Nothing to do but read LD threads. Still wondering - anyone else ever hear anything about a "no-loan" clause?
Guys - Take the 3rd grade insults to the sandbox please. (What Russ is referring to has been removed.)
I'll try again. This tells me everything I need to know about you. When the issue is narrowed to discussing Landon and his career, you lose the argument. But when the discussion revolves around your need to achieve validation through what Europeans think about American soccer, you win. So I can see why you want to change the terms of the debate. For the life of me, I can't figure out why someone would attack someone for their life choice.