Does Sam's Army Really Exist Anymore?

Agreed. And that's why a new breed of dedicated organizational Sam's Army people is needed.

 

Not to rain on your parade, but there's been a dedicated group of Sam's Army people that have desparately tried to move the organization forward since the very end of World Cup 2002, but the one, inescapable road-block has been Mark Spacone. I've tried to work with him in good faith, so have others, but he has proven himself incapable, or uninterested in doing what's necessary to maintain and develop both the integrity and legitimacy of the organization. He's made noises for years about organizning Sam's Army along the lines of a true business: with a membership scheme with dues, cards, potential deals with U.S. Soccer, etc., but he for the most part, he's engaged in such efforts on his own, and without any measure of oversight from anyone else. I really wish I could tell you what his intentions are towards the organization, but I can't... I simply don't know. Thing is, he owns the copyright, and until he gives that up or sells it, Sam's Army® is really his to do, or do not with what he likes. The only "official" Sam's Army person, is Mark; a fair number of people don't seem to understand this. Yes, while there are any number of Sammers who contribute to the web site, and work to ensure for U.S. supporters sections at U.S. matches, these are people who are dedicated more to the mission of Sam's Army than having any direct affiliation or official role. Sam's Army, since the last World Cup, has truly been a grassroots organization. You can bring in a new breed of people and the same dedication, but you'll still have to deal with Mark; there's really no getting around that.

We are Sam's Army.

Mark Spacone is Sam's Army®.

The mission remains bigger than all of us, and accessible to anyone.

The Magpie

 

C'mon what's the inside scoop as to how or why that went down? PM me or not PM me, not asking you to throw anyone under the bus, I'm just curious.

 

One possible way to get around it is for everyone willing to put in the effort like they are to form a new organization, give it a new name and tell Mark to have a nice day. I'm surprised it hasn't already come to this. There could probably have been a real serious, direct bond between us soccer and its supporters by now.

 

Why not? It's not like the US would be the first to have more than one suporters group. And if some folks put together a proper one, registerd as a non-profit and the whole nine yards, I'd expect it to do well.

 

here's the thing - as one who tried to help start a grassroots movement, I found a lot of hostility from old SA who were still loyal to Mark. This isn't about power or pride - it's about passion - and many of us, BigDog, Magpie, vflkirwan, and myself have all reached the conclusion that what works best is keeping it grassroots. I'm all for giving it another shot to establish some larger framework - like a communications network - but it appears that is what SA currently is - and it's getting the job done - and the job is what's important. Anyway, in terms of merchandise - like getting a bunch of SA t-shirts - that's not gonna happen. However, I am willing to lead an effort to get t-shirts made that don't use SA.

 

Not really much to tell.

In the months leading up to, and then following WC 2002, a number of veteran Sam's Army members recognized the groundswell of enthusiasm for the U.S. team, and saw an opportunity for Sam's Army to exploit that: to capture, sustain, and nuture the growth of U.S. support in evidence in Korea/Japan. They sought to bring about changes to the group: increasing membership, improving organizational structures, developing a more provocative and active web presence, coming up with merchandising options where the money would (in part) help finance group efforts, etc. However, time and time again such efforts were frustrated by Mark, and for any number of reasons: he didn't have the time or enthusiasm to be actively involved in such efforts, he didn't have the money or resources to move forward, he had his own ideas for what to do with the group... and as owner of the Sam's Army® name and logo, no independent action specific to the group could be undertaken without his explicit approval, lest such parties risk getting a call from his lawyer.

If you need one specific example, a number of these Sammers (yours truly included) came up with a plan to make new, generic, Sam's Army scarf as a means to generate some much seed money for use by Sam's Army that would explicitly be used to help finance other future group merchandising efforts. There had been tremendous demand post WC 2002 for Sam's Army gear, but fans were left frustrated. A proposal was presented to Mark where individual Sammers would finance the initial production cost (about $2,000 if I recall), would be paid back through the sale of scarves, with any remaining $$$ going back to the organization. The plan was to turn these around in enough time to make them available for the U.S. vs. Elsalvador WCQ in September 2004. Mark was uncomfortable with this, let that be known as such, and was primarily concerned that scarves wouldn't sell. Sample designs and a poll through Sams-army.com effecively demonstrated that they would sell, and a final proposal was sent to Mark. In the end, Mark stipulated as part of his "business contract" that he'd require $100 or an equivalent in scarves be paid for use of the SA logo and name, and that -- and this was explicitly stated -- that he "didn't care" what was done with the profits. That's at least the key part of the story.

At this point, I effectively threw in the towel, and in the end, I did get scarves made for this match, the ones seen below:




The Revolution supporters' group Midnight Riders got these scarves turned around in one month, financed the cost through the group, and ended up selling out of the design, making a nice little profit as a result. Same thing could have been done for Sam's Army, but Mark didn't want that.

Sam's Army® is a corporate name used to describe a grassroots movement that transcends any word or trademark. We are all "Sam's Army"... we are all U.S. soccer supporters, even if we're not Sam's Army®.

The Magpie

 

So who maintains the Sam's Army website? They stay pretty up-to-date with news about upcoming games and such.

 

As an IP attorney myself, albeit without significant experience, it would be difficult to do. Nearly impossible if he is doing any business with the trademark.

FYI, here is the link to the registration information:

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=40ahm.2.2

To me, people should just start a new group with a new name. I've never really cared for the name and logo myself.... but that's just personal preference of course.

 

any idea how much we would need to raise to buy it from him?

 

I never liked the Sams Army thing. We need a new name completely. With the behavior of our government it smacks of horrible, hostile jingoism and is emberrasing.

 

While I agree with your politics, you don't even need to go there to be critical of the name and logo.

Personally I've always thought the logo was cheesey..... let's brainstorm another name! Something having to do with US Heritage that's classy and cool.... lol.....

midnight riders is pretty good.... minute men..... uhm ideas?

 

I disagree on that actually. Sams Army to the extent anything soccer related at least has some brand recognition to it. Christ, you could argue that 'Sams Army TM' has the most and the oldest brand recognition of ALL of American soccer. The official group predates MLS even doesn't it, or did it start after the '94 WC?

 

I agree.

Maybe I'm just being dense, but I don't see why we can't just start a new group. There's an explanation or two above (from rksehga for instance), but I honestly find them unconvincing. Who cares if some folks are loyal to Mark Spacone? It sounds like he's the ultimate problem, so if you're loyal to him then you're part of the problem too. If they get upset people some folks start up a new group, then too bad.

And, anyway, there's nothing wrong with having two supporters groups. Plus, it's not like there haven't already been some upstart alternatives.

For instance: http://www.ussupporters.com/

 

Okay how about keeping the name and just updating the logo to something a little classier?



But you still have ultimate control issues using the TM.
I don't know Mark from Adam but if it is true he is not being helpful in growing the organization it seems to me people should just start anew.

 

The various MLS supporters clubs like the Midnight Riders, Section 8, the SEs, etc. have picked up the slack of SA for the home games. We organize the ticket sections, put on parties/tailgate and help people find hotels. Back in the late '90s, SA used to at least put up some cash for these things and even helped organize but those days are gone. For the US-Panama this fall game the SEs sold tickets for a section under the SA name but we kept all the profits (and thank you very much, btw!) as we have are own ticketing program with DC United. The only thing Mark offered was for us to buy some SA shirts to re-sell (uh sorry, clean out garage on your own dime). The SEs are fortunate to have a large volunteer base (and for the Panama game we teamed up with the Barra Brava and La Norte to put the tailgate on) but for clubs who aren't as big, these games can be a huge burden when you're trying to also do your club stuff during the season.

While the MLS clubs have run things here at home, what about when we want to go overseas? The SEs did a trip to Mexico City last time and I believe some of the Midnight Rider folks helped get people to Ireland. Wouldn't it be easier if there was one stop shopping for hotel and tickets (I realize we're too big a country to have one air package, or maybe people could all fly into NY and head out, or whatever). Groups can get much better deals and get better access to tickets, don't we want to help people travel to games?

Why has Mark never tried to get some sort of alliance of the MLS clubs (add a buck to their membership fees to filter back to SA?) There are people out here already doing the work needed to be done but neither he (nor anyone else) has seen clear to get folks together to work as one.

Maybe the heads of the MLS supporters clubs should get together and think about some sort of alliance and build something new and useful.

K

 

i seriously think we should try and buy it


go with a different name for now, set up a not for profit group... raise money... with time, try and buy it all from mark


we can set up a new name, but it will always be known as sam's army... you cannot change that...

and we shouldn't try and fight it, we should try and figure out how to take advantage of what is going on

 

i've always been a huge fan of this...

 

Some good comments from Evan. I think the whole Sam’s Army movement has been in a weird, continuous tape loop for years. People start saying, let’s build this fan movement. However, Mark registered the trademark and he alone owns the rights. You can’t do anything without his permission. Mark won’t respond, or says he needs more time, then some people get frustrated and go away and do something else. Then 6 months pass and the same thing happens again. Nothing gets done.
The trademark SAM’S ARMY was registered in two classes and the first one may have been abandoned. No Sam’s Army clothing, scarves or T-shirts have been sold for years and if you don’t use your mark in interstate commerce for one year it is abandoned and you lose your rights. The second category is probably valid because Mark Wheeler (and others) have been so diligent in keeping the website going. In the past Mark has been proactive in stopping any unauthorized use of the trademark, and I am not aware of any authorized use of the mark in recent years either, outside of the website. The last thing we need is to get lawyers fighting about this because our fan base is small to begin with and a legal fight will make it even smaller. For now, the trademark is the cork in the bottle. TV announcers call the fans “Sam’s Army” even though very few people wear the gear anymore. Any effort to organize under the name Sam’s Army or to sell gear is stopped when Mark asserts control over the Trademark, so we go back into the continuous tape loop. Sam Pierron offered to buy the trademark, others have shown interest in licensing it, others have asked Mark to delegate certain tasks, but I am not aware of a response from Mark. Silence means no, and nothing gets done. Meanwhile, many longtime supporters (including me) like Mark as a person and many don’t want to stomp off and start an alternative group.
Two years ago some fans tried to organize an alternative; US Supporters. Some of the members were antagonistic towards older Sam’s Army loyalists, but most of them were not. I was active in both groups and would try to be active in any group that tries to elicit support for our national team. The two groups cooperated at national team games and visited each other’s tailgates. But it seems US Supporters is pretty inactive these days too. Nothing is getting done other than a loosely-organized group of people who are in contact via email, listserve or here. We get a flag to most games, have a tailgate at most games, but in terms of building organized support, the movement is going nowhere fast.

 

Is there a supporter's club conference? One should be arranged if it hasn't been done.

 

I'll offer up free legal help to anyone who is more experienced with trademark matters and wants to try to take this on. Has SA become generic? can we kill it that way?

Like I said, I'm an unexperienced IP attorney willing to help someone more experienced if they want to give it a shot.

 

I think K's idea about heads of local supporters groups getting together is interesting but not likely to work. Some of these people really are not national team fans and there are all kinds of grudges out there that may make it harder for them to work together. Remember, an awful lot of the energy that went into the SEs, La Norte, Section 8, Midnight Riders and so on is grounded in rivalry and antipathy towards the other MLS cities and supporters groups. Plus it will offer no advantages when we play in Seattle, Houston, Birmingham or some other non-MLS city Cooperation with local supporters groups is essential but if we opt for some kind of triumvirate or league of MLS leaders, we may be back in a continuous tape loop.
But obviously if this happened I would work with it just like I would work with Mark. Anyone who wants to help!

 

There's been a supporters summit at MLS cup since 1999. I've only been to a few and to be frank, they were a waste of my time. Part of it is a bitch session and the other is a meeting with MLS execs. I wish the supporters club part was organized enough so club people came to actually work on something (we seem to just introduce ourselves and bitch about stadium security and club's relationships with their teams front offices). The timing of these meetings can be rough (Sat) because a lot of folks are flying in when the meeting is going on. Having discussions on a yahoogroup for example during the year would probably be more productive.

There used to be a SA Elders list which had a lot of MLS club presidents, etc. but most MLS supporters clubs have had turnover so I'm sure these new folks aren't on there (if it still exists, they tossed me out back in '01 because I was one of the people who wanted change, yeah I'm trouble!

K

 

Well, any MLS SC that isn't a national team supporter (and honestly, I'm having trouble thinking of one that isn't, except for maybe Chivas-USA?) wouldn't have to join. Some of us are adults and can play with others (some of us are even capable of talking to leaders of clubs who cheer for our most bitter rival). I was thinking the MLS SCs would be a starting point. As far as other cities like Seattle (or any A-league team city) we could get their SC on board too. The overseeing org should be seeking out natural affinity groups to A) help with the ground stuff and B) add to the membership and treasury of the overseeing group. If there was only a handful of fans in a certain city the overseeing group would have the volunteers to get online/the phone and asst with planning.

K