Does Retirement overhypes?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by poetgooner, Dec 2, 2016.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #101 PuckVanHeel, Feb 9, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
    I did not say 'overrated', I said that there wasn't historically awesome competition.

    Napoli won the title with merely 70.0% of the points, one of the lowest ever and a record low between 1980 and 1996.

    The competition was made up of stars who were on the wrong side of 30: Scirea, Platini, Cabrini, Rummenigge, Boniek, Junior, Francis, Briegel, Passarella, Brady, Bertoni.

    The previous main competition Juventus, Internazionale and AS Roma had a clear down year with an ageing spine and would restructure the following year(s).

    On the way to the Coppa Italia they only beat lower division teams and one relegation team.

    Four sentences.

    Between 1988 and 1998 the most dominant and the best league on most relevant dimensions. Maybe already tailing off after 1996.
     
  2. ChizzyChisnall

    ChizzyChisnall New Member

    Feb 2, 2017
    Club:
    AC Siena
    Point taken.
     
  3. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    I would say that the defenders of today are especially underrated. Does anyone actually have objective evidence that Ramos, Pique, Godin, Thiago Silva, Mascherano, Pepe, Boateng, Hummels, Bonucci, Chiellini, Barzagli, etc... are any worse than the defenders of the past?

    Granted they make mistakes and occasionally get roasted, but if you think that past defenders never made errors or got rinsed, then you've never actually seen them beyond YouTube videos, or you're blinded by nostalgia.
     
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  4. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    So much this. If you go back and watch all-timers like Baresi, you see if he made mistakes.

    It's also important to remember that defenders of the past could kick their opponents, but modern defenders are aided by modern defensive organization (assuming they play for a team that focus on such a thing.)
     
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  5. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    I think that goalkeepers today are better than ever before.

    When I watch old videos of Lev Yashin, I really don't see anything that De Gea couldn't do.
     
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  6. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Work Rate: Figo by miles and miles.
    Shooting: more or less equal
    Dribbling: Figo
    Passing: Figo
    Leadership qualities: Figo at club level vs. Zidane at NT level.
    Consistency: neither was ever exactly 'consistent' for more than just their one best season.
    Big game mentality: more or less equal (except that Zizou played for a superior teams).
    Technical ability: zidane (but not clearly at all)

    Please watch Figo vs. Chelsea 1999/2000, and tell me when Zidane was ever clearly better than that, if at all, at club level.
     
  7. giles varley

    giles varley Member+

    Oct 8, 2013
    nottingham uk
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Country:
    England
    In terms of shot stopping i think it is much harder for modern keepers because the new lighter balls can move very unpredictably in the air.. goalkeepers today get much more protection than they did years ago though...
     
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I have yet to see a Figo performance on par with zidane vs
    Ajax 1996/97
    Valencia 2002/03
    Portugal SF Euro 2000
    Scotland 2002
    Brazil qf world cup 2006

    These 5 games can probably compete with most (not all) of maradona's best performances for Napoli and Argentina (Post WC 1986)

    Zidane was a proven match winner in big moment's.i reiterate once more that I have never seen Luis Figo grab his team by the scruff of the neck and totally dominate a game
    Could you even list a single goal or assist figo made in
    World cup finals and semi finals
    Or champions league finals and semi finals

    Or even a dominant performance in a cup final
    (Ie Copa del Rey or coppa italia final)
    ??

    I will watch the Chelsea game you recommended(if I can find it) but let's not pretend that Chelsea pre abramovich was anything more than a mediocre side(a mid table team that could only boast a single fa cup trophy under ruud gullit)
     
  9. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Ajax 1996-97:
    4th place in the league / 55 goals scored / 31 goals conceded
    Juventus 1996-97:
    1st place in the league / 51 goals scored / 24 goals conceded

    Basically, the best team from the best league in the world, played against the 4th best team from the 4th best league in the world. How many Semi Finals did Figo played, where you could say that Figo was playing against a vastly inferior opponent? Juventus (WITHOUT ZIDANE) literally won against a stronger Ajax team in season 1995-96... How much importance should anyone put on Zidane essentially 'bullying' a vastly inferior opponent (which he didn't get to do in the Final)?

    Zidane vs. Deportivo Coruna 2002-03, vs. Deportivo Coruna 2001-02, vs. Athletic Bilbao 2001-02 (Copa del Rey), vs. Mallorca 2002-03, vs. Chelsea 1999-00, vs. Real Madrid 1999-00 (UCL Champions), are all as good as Zidane's best performances with Real Madrid. Furthermore, comparing Zidane's NT career (with one of the best 3 national teams of the time) against Figo's NT career (with one of the best 5-10 national teams of the time) is just inherently skewed in favor of the player who played for the demonstrably superior national team i.e. Zidane. How do you not get that?

    You need big teams (e.g. like the Juventus team that won the Champions League WITHOUT ZIDANE, but then failed to win one single Champions League in 5 years WITH ZIDANE) in order to produce those 'grab his team by the scruff of the neck' moments. See how many of those 'grab by the neck' moments Zidane produced at club level after Real Madrid got rid of Makelele... (Or after Del Piero's injury, after which Juventus didn't get to reach another UCL Final until 2003 thanks to Pavel Nedved.)

    Watch Figo vs. Real Madrid 1998-2000 then. Real Madrid won the 1999-00 Champions League, and Figo was pretty great against them.
     
  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I watched a Figo performance against real sociedad 98/99 earlier this week(it was a good performance no doubt)
    Rivaldo in the same match was completely in a different class (his chance Creation and dribbling runs were unreal-and of course there was some end product
    2 goals ,a tapin header assisted by Figo followed by a brilliant Solo effort

    I don't want to go completely of topic here but going back to a previous conversation we've had about athletic dribblers vs slow dribblers
    I am 100% certain that prime rivaldo was faster than zizou and frankly I don't even think it's up for debate

    I have some Solo runs in mind that I could show you rivaldo dribbling at a pace that even juve zidane couldn't reach
    Rivaldo/baggio pre injury/ronaldinho 05/06 all seemed to be at the same level in terms of acceleration with the ball

    Ronaldinho 2004/05 was probably the 2nd fastest attacking midfielder since maradona pre 86
    Number 1 imo would have to be kaka who had blistering pace during his peak
     
  11. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I'd like to bring back this thread, even for a little while. Hopefully, it can avoid derailment this time.

    We've had a number of legends retire this summer, the main ones being:
    Totti, Gerrard, Lahm, Xabi Alonso, and Frank Lampard.

    What has retirement done to their legacy and valuation?

    I'm particularly interested in the Gerrard vs Lampard debate. The other threads are already discussing how Rummenigge is now considered a far less player than his peers, Platini and Zico, even though contemporaries rated them quite closely (please don't take that as an invitation to bring that conversation to this thead lol.) I can see Gerrard pulling away from Lampard.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This annoys me to no end. You and others just ignore entirely the available evidence. Not the least the all-time rankings made in the early 1980s and second half of 1980s itself. So let's put Keegan up there too then. After all he's in France Football EPotY points far closer to Rummenigge (~60 points) than Rummenigge is to Platini (~ 200 points).
     
  13. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Dude, please, I pretty much stayed out of that conversation. Lets stick to the topic at hand in this thread.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    OK, no problem.

    Yes I agree that Gerrard has the better cards. Liverpool is also simply the more popular club.
     
  15. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    At the moment Gerrard is ahead in popular perception (wrongly in my opinion).

    But Lampard had a higher Ballon d'Or best placing (2nd v 3rd), scored more goals in the Premier League and for England, won 3 league titles to Gerrard's 0, appeared a lot more in the ESM team of the month etc. So there is plenty of ammunition there for future generations to put Lampard above Gerrard.

    Part of their retrospective legacy will depend on how Chelsea and Liverpool perform over the coming years. Liverpool are a much bigger club than Chelsea and have a huge number more fans who skew popular opinion. But Chelsea are a side who have gathered a lot of fans in recent years and are very popular, particularly in Africa. If Chelsea continue their success of the last 25 years over the next 25 and Liverpool continue their title drought then I wonder what that does to the relative perception of them.

    The other intangible is what a managerial career can do to perceptions of players. A good one (Pep for instance) elevates the player significantly as people can project managerial qualities onto their playing time. A bad one (Bryan Robson) diminishes the player. If either (or both) become managers then that may play a part.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Gerrard and Lampard aside, I think Totti and Xabi Alonso are the most vulnerable of this group.

    Totti for reasons discussed very often, but also in the various scenarios for the Serie A going forward (them receiving 4 automatic UCL places, which is not without debate) he is likely to take a hit. Is there a scenario where he emerges as a winner? If Serie A continues to dive, he loses. If Serie A re-surges, he loses. If AS Roma can miraculously force themselves into the closed shop (i.e. the by now official business partners of UEFA), he loses.

    Xabi Alonso is in many ways vulnerable because of not being linked to anyone club, and his best years for the national team coming at the wrong time. His most successful years for club and country were perhaps not his best.

    Personally I find Lahm very overrated next to peak Schweinsteiger, Ribery, Robben, Neuer and lately Lewandowski (maybe Thomas Muller). The players who got them to the final, or won it, were the first three plus Javi Martinez (arguably). Speaking of this, Mats Hummels might turn out to be vulnerable too for some of the reasons that apply to Xabi Alonso.
     
  17. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    That's hugely important in my opinion. It reveals so much when a player becomes a successful manager in my opinion. It shows that the things they have done on the pitch were not coincedence and that there was more to their game than sheer technique and physical presence.. they had a leadership skills that lifted quality of their teammates and tactical sense (unlike Maradona, who proved to be "only" incredibly gifted player with his awful managment. He had an eye for creating, but tactically clueless, (which is one of the reasons i believe Messi is the greatest ever)). Zidane defintely jumped a notch in my eyes after recent successes as a Real Madrid manager.

    Lampard > Gerrard. Lampard seemed so much more inteligent and composed on the pitch imo.
     
  18. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    There is a case that moving around actually makes him look even better. I know for a fact that some consider CR7 above Messi precisely because he's proven himself in two clubs. Mino Raiola also saying Messi need to move to prove greatness, but that's probably because he wants to be the agent that make the move happen so he can pocket 50m.

    Some would rate Alonso highly because he's won things in 3 different countries. That's very admirable.

    There's an argument to be made that his best years were 2009-2012. He wasn't a starter in the 2008 EURO. He was starter in both WC2010 and EURO 2012. Won the La Liga in 2012 and was named best La Liga midfielder in 2012 as well.
     
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  19. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    After the match against Spain, Buffon labelled Brazilian Ronaldo as the best he has ever faced. He said, "Ronaldo, the Brazilian one...He was the perfect player, as he had power, speed, intuition technical skills and quickness. He was a jaw-dropping player. It seemed like he was created in a lab." Rating R9 as one of the top few players ever isn't overhyping him. Zidane also deserves to be rated as one of the very best. However, he is overhyped when people rate him above Zico or Platini for example (and many people do).
    http://www.marca.com/en/football/international-football/2017/09/04/59ad779622601d451a8b45e9.html
     
  20. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    I reckon that Xabi Alonso's legacy will not survive as long as it could have if he'd won the Champions League with Bayern.
     
  21. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    His UCLs with both Liverpool and Madrid were historical though. It basically put both clubs back on the map. Both hadn't been European elites for a while.

    I think it'll be interesting to see where he's rated against someone like Seedorf who made a career out of being a world-class cog in three different UCL winning teams.

    I also enjoy the Pirlo vs Alonso discussion. Pirlo is clearly more highly regarded, but the Alonso brigade does have a point that Alonso is more well-rounded, in that he was better defensively than Pirlo. He also never had a whole midfield built around him like Pirlo did at both Milan and Juventus, although that might actually point to Pirlo's supremacy.
     
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  22. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Alonso's peak began in his final season at Liverpool (2008/09) and ended in his penultimate season (2012/13) with Real Madrid. That's a good 5 years of world class service.

    I think that Pirlo had more world class seasons than Alonso (from 2002/03 to 2007/08, and then again from 2011-2013). Likewise, Pirlo also hit a higher peak than Alonso.

    In terms of footballing ability, Alonso was significantly stronger than Pirlo defensively, but Pirlo could dribble out of a press and generally picked his passes quicker.

    I personally prefer Pirlo, but I still regard Alonso very highly.

    Arguably Toni Kroos and certainly Luka Modric have earned the right to be compared to Alonso, Pirlo and even Xavi & Iniesta. In fact, a lot of Real Madrid fans already rate Kroos higher than Alonso.
     
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  23. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Country:
    Croatia
    Kroos - Alonso comparison is ridiculous. They have similarities but they are way too different to compare. Although all of them (Modrić, Xavi, Xabi, Pirlo..) are midfielders i can't put them in the same sentences. Different players.
     
  24. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #124 leadleader, Sep 10, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
    1. Philippe Lahm in first place... I think that Lahm is going to get the 'Maldini treatment' after nostalgia really kicks in, and especially after Lahm's exploits at Euro 2008, World Cup 2014, and with Bayern Munich 2008-2013, get merged into one extremely misleading youtube video -- similar to how Paolo Maldini's status was glorified in the early days of youtube.

    And that's not to say that Paolo Maldini wasn't a great defender, but he really is the defender with the most committed fans, just like Zinedine Zidane is the playmaker with the most committed fans... And by committed fans, I specifically mean fans who watch all of their games, with the primary aim of creating (very) misleading youtube videos to highlight the (more fictional than truthful) superiority of Maldini over Thuram, or Zidane over Figo, etc. If Lilian Thuram had fans as committed as the Maldini/Cannavaro fans, Thuram's post-retirement perception would probably be significantly better than what it currently is. That's what I think will happen with Philippe Lahm; Lahm will be the Maldini to whomever was the Thuram of the era.

    2. Xabi Alonso in second place... Alonso will get something similar to the 'Pirlo treatment' in that his greatness was widely appreciated probably after he was past his better days. And Alonso has the big trophies to substantiate the claims, at club level and also with his national team.

    3. Steven Gerrard in third place... The good old, "If Gerrard had played for Manchester United or Chelsea, he would've won just as many trophies as Lampard, if not more trophies than Lampard..." Most of every fool falls for that demonstrable fallacy, and the majority of fans are rather foolish - and especially so when it comes to the remembrance of charismatic players like Gerrard... Ergo: If Gerrard had played for a big club, he would be as successful as Lampard or Scholes... And of course, the indefensible flaw with that argument is that any world class midfielder COULD RATHER EASILY win several league titles with a big club. (In fact, Anderson played 24 league games with Manchester United in season 2007-08, and Man. Utd. won the league in 2007-08. Anderson was not a world class midfielder - so it's very easy to imagine what any world class midfielder could've done at that club.) Ozil won the World Cup with Germany, and Ozil would've definitely also won the Champions League with Real Madrid. That's the truth about football: there's eleven players on each team, it very much is a team sport.

    The argument that Gerrard would've been much successful with a big club, is really very misleading - but it works because most fans are fools for nostalgia, gullible enough to actually believe that Gerrard's playing style was suited for big clubs, when in fact big clubs are more often than not more successful with players like Lampard or players like Pirlo. Real Madrid was more successful with Ronaldo in his striker-in-the-box days, than they were with Ronaldo in his more impressive days of ineffectual dribbling... The perception of being impressive (read: Ronaldo's ineffectual dribbling that looked efficient and impressive on youtube), and the actual value of an impressive-looking-player, are very different things.

    Not surprisingly, when Real Madrid used more efficient dribblers to do what Ronaldo never really did (but was always perceived/credited for), and when Ronaldo was reduced to the lesser role of simply scoring headers and tap ins and the occasional impressive goal that can't be defined neither as a header nor a tap in -- and Real Madrid started winning more trophies, even though Ronaldo clearly was past his better days already in 2014.

    4. Francesco Totti in fourth place... Totti had the style and the flash to rank higher in this list, but he repeatedly failed to make an impression at the Champions League, and he failed to make an impression at World Cup 2002 (where he played for one of the top tier nations), and he failed to make an impression at Euro 2004 (where his rivals were old Zidane, old Figo, old Nedved, old players on their last legs), and again he failed to make an impression at World Cup 2006 (where both Pirlo and Cannavaro were much more important players), and then the horrific ankle injury (after which Totti was never the same player again, in my opinion), and then the Calciopoli which devastated Italian football for over a decade, etc., and the result is a disappointing career, given the potential that Totti was seemingly capable of.

    5. Frank Lampard in last place... Because he was a relatively boring player who failed to make an impression at the World Cup and the Euro. And he wasn't a revelation at the Champions League, for that matter. On the other hand... Lampard could get the 'Scholes treatment' in that his relatively boring style will get glorified by dubious sources.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It is not unthinkable that Xabi Alonso will become a good or decent manager/coach. That will raise his stock for sure, also with his off-field presentation.

    For now he's commonly totally ignored in debates of "most intelligent player" ever or of his generation, but not sure whether that is totally fair (for example Seedorf his nickname was "Il Professore" while at AC Milan - aided by the Milan lab tests and some other things).

    That Xabi's his physical limitations did not lend itself to snappy interventions and seemingly clever interceptions doesn't mean he wasn't intelligent. Often those type of guys who make many interceptions (seem to 'read' the game) have a plus.

     
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