Does Retirement overhypes?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by poetgooner, Dec 2, 2016.

  1. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    How did you find out that the one vs Sevilla was his first hattrick? Anyway, to add more details, that Sevilla side was pretty good considering that they also went on to challenge for the league title till the last day of the next season. And ofcourse, as you mentioned, that Real Madrid was not so good and was even missing R9 as well as Raul I think, for that game.

    And Zidane definitely seems to be a target for a lot of posters. For instance, the performances of Ronaldinho and Romario that you point out are not the only ones like that, coming against weakened RM teams. Xavi away vs Real Madrid 08/09 is also similar. And other things can be found to nitpick other performances, like Real being down to 10 men when Messi scored his 2 goals in the 10/11 CL SF first leg. It just seems to me that essays are written pointing out such aspects and how they thus take away from the dominating nature of the performance, more often than not if it's Zidane, but not so much if it's any of these others.

    Regarding rankings though, I'm not so sure we can dismiss anyone's opinion. Everyone has their own criteria and while someone who upholds Club success would put club legends at the top, another who feels that NT tournaments are more important would do the same with NT legends. Same for consistency vs clutch performances, so on and so forth.

    There is a topic in the Players and Legends sub-forum created by @PDG1978 with all time lists from various sources and posters collated together, with higher placements getting more points, and it has Zidane at number 10 currently. I personally never was able to share my list since I couldn't decide on one, but the consensus seems to indicate a higher position for him than what many here would like to see him at. Maybe that is the reason for the kind of scrutiny that he is put under, in which case it's nothing but agenda driven nonsense IMO. Since understanding this, I've basically started ignoring most of it.
     
  2. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It's not an agenda and it's also not nonsense - ignoring it also doesn't make you look good. I'm not even going to state the obvious and say that Zidane was an inconsistent player - I will instead say that Zidane was never a consistent player, not at club level and also never at NT level. Not a factor vs. Croatia 1998, abysmal vs. Italy 2000, largely not a factor (besides scoring a PK created by Henry - and even then Thuram was considered the man of the match) vs. Portugal 2006, completely loosed his cool when France was probably a few brief minutes away from their 2nd World Cup title vs. Italy 2006, never a factor in a World Cup Group Stage, etc.

    Zidane's truly great performances at NT level were vs. Brazil 1998 (not great from open-play at all, but his two header goals cannot and should not be understated), vs. Brazil 2006 (a bloated and largely unproven Brazil team imo), and vs. Portugal 2000. And every time he benefited from extremely lucky factors: vs. Brazil 1998 he benefitted from playing in his home country and from whatever happened to R9 pre-game; vs. Brazil 2006 he benefited from playing against an overrated Brazil team that was likely going to be eliminated early if not by France by some other team; vs. Portugal he benefited from the fact that both Portugal and Figo were overrated at the Euro, when in reality Portugal was clearly inferior to France, and Figo had a rather nightmare scenario ahead of him vs. Thuram who covered the left. When largely relevant factors don't go his way, we get to see his performances vs. Italy 1998 (a good one, but not a great one, and he also didn't scored nor assisted any goals in a game that was decided by a PK shootout), vs. Croatia 1998 (average at best), vs. Spain 2000 (a largely average performance, but he scored an excellent FK), vs. Italy 2000 (abysmal), vs. Spain 2006 (good performance, but both Vieira and Ribery were clearly better than him i.e. he wasn't even the 2nd best player in his own team), vs. Portugal 2006 (booooring and largely a passenger - Portugal's stronger midfield in 2006 compared to their 2000 team, clearly made things harder for Zidane), vs. Italy 2006 (was relatively good but in a boring way i.e. Zidane was not better than Pirlo - then Zidane lost his cool and arguably became a big reason as to why France didn't win the PK shootout i.e. France lost a great PK taker in Zidane, whereas Italy retained Pirlo who was a great PK taker, Zidane's mental collapse in the end proved very costly in the most important game of the cup) -- that's a lot of matches were Zidane was not the legend he is credited as at NT level.

    Furthermore, Zidane also didn't have the dribbling efficiency, goals per season, assists per season, to be better than a player like prime Ronaldinho. If you think that Ronaldinho performed well against a weak Real Madrid, then what about Ronaldinho's performances vs. AC Milan 2005-06 and vs. Chelsea 2004-06? Surely you don't think that those teams were also weak when Ronaldinho dismantled them?

    In conclusion: Zidane was a player that, in different seasons, many fans considered inferior to Ronaldo 1996-98, Rivaldo 1999, Figo 1999-01, Nedved 2002-03, Totti 2000-04, Henry 2003-06, Pirlo 2004-06, Ronaldinho 2004-06, Riquelme 2005-06, etc. Zidane never dominated club football, and his longevity (in an era in which not many players could be said to have enjoyed it) defines him as a strong candidate for Top 20 all timer, in my opinion. But when you repeatedly directly compare him to players like Messi, Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, etc., and I just honestly don't get it - I don't get how such a narrative has any legs to stand on. Zidane was an inferior passer, inferior goal scorer, inferior dribbler, and also an inferior athlete, compared to all those demonstrably superior players.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, but this assumes 1) that Maradona was a particularly consistent player while he wasn't (for a forward) and 2) that such with/without games cannot be played in case of Maradona. In fact, his weighed GoalImpact rating is nothing remarkable (compared to Puskas, Cruijff, Messi, Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, Van Basten, Di Stefano, and also Platini, Beckenbauer...).
    Just as some questioned the relative consistency of Zidane, as you pointed out, so were there questions about the one of Maradona relative to his era (and one uncomfortable fact is that he and Careca threatened journalists, destroyed cars, when they received a bad grade - this is undeniable). One important note here: when I made my 'overrated players' list I didn't include Maradona; I also think Maradona is everything considered the player of 1980 to 1990 while Zidane has a case for 1995 to 2005 (but I personally take Ronaldo ahead of him).

    People always focus on Napoli but then they don't look at what Argentinos Juniors, Boca Juniors, Barcelona and the national team accomplished slightly before and slightly after his stay (with similar wins, goal difference etc.). Especially in the league, as that is in many ways more telling than a sometimes fluky cup competition. In contrast to e.g. Zidane and Cristiano there are also rarely words about how he missed the first five matches of the 1989-90 season (and some games in between) and Napoli were solidly at #1 position when he returned. Or how virtually all his major achievements are tied to a handball (1986WC, 1987 scudetto, 1989 UEFA Cup final, 1990WC).

    I have no doubts in my mind or whatsoever that Zidane (not only on BS but also by mainstream pundits) gets rocks thrown at him that aren't thrown to other players.
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #79 PuckVanHeel, Dec 23, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
    I'll try to cover this in parts;

    [Part 1]

    It also assumes that a player plays against all top players in the World Cup, but because it is a cup tournament this isn't true obviously.

    Against which top 30 or top 50 players did Maradona or Zidane play in 1986 and 1998 respectively? At a stretch.

    1986 World Cup: 33 years old Scirea, Bagni, De Napoli, Altobelli (the latter three the best rated players by both Gazzetta and Guerin). Out of form Francescoli (Alzamendi, Rodolfo Rodriguez did not play and Ruben Paz came in as 61th minute substitute). Hoddle, Lineker, Reid, Shilton Gerets, Ceulemans, past-prime Briegel, Forster, pre-prime Matthaus, injured Rummenigge.

    Which ones do I forget? Of the 1983 to 1988 SApotY top 10 ranked Uruguayan players these did not play either: Morena, Diogo, Carlos Aguilera, De Leon, Aguirre, Perdomo, Ruben da Silva and Lemos. Bryan Robson of England was top 10 in the 1985 Ballon d'Or but he was injured and he didn't play.


    1998 World Cup: Benny McCarthy, Maldini, Cannavaro, Del Piero, Vieri, Jarni, Boban, Suker, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo, Ronaldo. Something like that?


    It was not uncommon to play similar top end talent in the European Cup, Cup Winners Cup and UEFA Cup of old. And beyond a certain level of players the players become more interchangeable and/or expendable (where system and organization counts more than 'talent').
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    [part 2 and final part]

    Let's take the 1994 World Cup, the last one involving 24 teams, and look at the 1993 to 1995 Ballon d'Or top 10 and top 20.

    These top 10 players did not play: Cantona, Boksic, Michael Laudrup, Giggs, Litmanen, Desailly, Savicevic and Weah.

    These top 10 to top 20 players did not play either: Gullit, Schmeichel, Herzog, Papin, Paulo Sousa, Suker and Vialli (who was injured).

    Then there are also cases as Ginola or a 29 years old Van Basten.

    It's easy to see that many top players weren't there, nor did they need to for being rated as such. Yes, not playing in 1994 means you're without chance to win the Ballon d'Or, but Litmanen and Savicevic were still rated top 10 in a World Cup year.

    Just as easily it can be argued that the European Cup + UEFA Cup + Cup Winners Cup taken together captured more of the worlds top players than the 24 teams World Cup. Or that the European Championships with 8 and 16 teams had a denser schedule than the World Cup (5 matches against the 8 best teams of Europe, and this time with fewer space for an Havelange to corrupt/influence the party hence Denmark or Greece can win too).


    If you look at the various "all-time" lists of the 1980s and 1990s - made by journalists, colleagues, annalists - then you see many players who never showed something close to their best form at the World Cup. Something like 40 - 60 % of the top 10 and top 25 weren't anywhere close to impress at World Cup level. And they were aware of that.
     
  6. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Had missed mentioning one thing as I couldn't find a source for it earlier. @PuckVanHeel inadvertently helped with that.
    Regarding the above, I think comments like the below are what you were thinking of when you mentioned it.

    Although, Sid Lowe isn't exactly what we would call a "fanboy", though in this case he seems to be quoting the public opinion of the time in Spain, rather than his own.

    This does underline your opinion earlier regarding Zidane being rated very highly (especially in countries wherein he played regularly), even prior to his retirement.
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I think ronaldinho's home performance against Chelsea 05/06 needs to be reanalysed and preferably by a neutral third party

    I have just finishing watching the entire match and apart from the goal he scored which was obviously good (it was a solo goal of sorts) I really don't see the fuss behind this specific performance

    There is the usual reportoire of flicks and some skills but there was no examples of goat chance creation and no examples of any dribbling runs(except for the goal where he dribbles/barges 1 defender)

    His performance against AC Milan away despite not scoring was demonstrably superior IMO
    (He showcased his tremendous passing ability, performed skills and dribbles that were actually effective instead of the showboating he did against Chelsea home

    IMO defining his performance against Chelsea home as a big game performance purely based on the goal he scored is yet another example of the bias you show when rating Barcelona players

    It would be helpful if we could start a thread where we could go through every single one of his big games perfomances in 2004/05 and 2005/06.
     
  8. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    In my opinion, the above logic is yet another example of your pro-Europe bias. Both prime Ronaldo and prime Messi played against prime Chelsea in the Champions League - neither one of them scored a great dribbling goal, and neither one of them produced an overall great performance, in fact, quite far from it actually. But Ronaldinho produces, not a great performance, but a great goal, and some great flicks (which neither prime Messi nor prime CR7 managed to do), and your conclusion is that Ronaldinho's performance is contextually overrated??

    I know for a fact that your opinion would be VERY different, if Ronaldinho was European. And for the record: I don't even genuinely like Ronaldinho all that much - I find him too exaggerated in his technique and in his tricks, I prefer more elegant and purer technicians like Riquelme or Valderrama (or in fact Zidane), over Ronaldinho. But still, Ronaldinho's performances vs. Real Madrid 2005-06, vs. AC Milan 2005-06, vs. Chelsea 2005-06, are simply extraordinary stuff... Zidane certainly never produced that at club level. And furthermore: the logic that "Real Madrid was weak" is in fact an irrational post hoc fallacy (by which to irrationally discredit Ronaldinho's amazing performance), and I can prove that with factual and historical evidence.
     
    greatstriker11 repped this.
  9. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I don't think prime Messi actually got to play against prime Chelsea. Most Chelsea fans would consider the 04-06 version the prime of that core set of players. Only Ronaldinho got to play against them.
     
  10. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    The players of today are probably better than what this forum gives them credit for. Once they retire, I suspect that people will start giving them the credit they deserve.

    Messi will be spoken of in the same sentence as Maradona and Pele. His lack of international silverware means nothing with a club career like that. Cristiano will be at least on par with Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Platini as the best European player ever.

    Iniesta is at least as good as Zidane and probably better. Suarez is at least as good as Henry and probably one of the best strikers in recent history. Kroos will be spoken about in the same sentence as Xavi and Pirlo. Modric is as good as Seedorf ever was. Busquets will go down as one of the all-time great defensive midfielders. Vidal will be seen as good as Keane or Vieira. Boateng and Pique will go down as all-time great centerbacks. Lahm and Dani Alves will be remembered as two of the best ever right backs, up there with Thuram and Cafu. Neuer will go down as one of the best ever goalkeepers, on par with Buffon.

    Give it time.
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  11. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think there'll always be those who prefer Henry over Suarez, because Henry could do more thing than Suarez. Definitely in terms of individual brilliance, Henry was superior. ALso have to take into account the Barcelona effect when it comes to Suarez.

    I think the consensus will come down to defining Suarez as a goal-scorer, and Henry as a more complete forward. I think we have enough evidence already to conclude that Suarez is a better goal-scorer than Henry ever was. Maybe not better finishing, but all the other things that go into scoring goals, including style.

    That'll make it easy for both camps to agree to disagree. Henry will be the best complete forward of the 21st century, while Suarez the best goal-scorer. Just can't see a consensus, otherwise.
     
  12. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Don't be so sure. The legend of Zidane feels pretty impenetrable to me right now. Everyday, it feels more and more like it's becoming conventional wisdom that Zidane is top 10 all time player, ALL POSITIONS.
     
    leadleader repped this.
  13. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Suarez's 2013/14 season is better than any individual season Henry ever had in the Premier League, including 2003/04. That's despite the fact that he played for Liverpool, a team that finished 6th the season after he left. A team certainly nowhere near as good as Arsenal in 2003/04.
     
  14. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I'd personally disagree on these.
    I don't think this will happen either, even though I agree it should.
     
  15. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I agree. I made the same case in the Suarez thread. I actually consider Suarez 13/14 the best, or at least top 2, season anyone's ever had in the EPL.

    Having said that, I don't rate it as the best season an EPL player ever had, due to the very simple reason that Henry also played in the UCL in 2003/04, and CR7 won the UCL in 2008 as well as having an equally good season in the EPL.
     
  16. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    I can understand Pique and Boateng since there have been so many great defenders, but why not Vidal?
     
  17. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I don't think the context lends itself to comparison. Keane and Vieira played at a time when midfield duo was the default, Vidal usually played in a three. It's very difficult to compare. I think they need to be differentiated.
     
  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Agreed with everything except neuer and Buffon
    Manuel neuer is easily the most overrated gk in living memory.
    The fact that he is credited for revolutionizing the role of the sweeper keeper just proves how overrated he is
    (Barthez was doing the same thing only a decade or so before him)

    I know this must of been said before but I'll take de gea over neuer any day of the week
    (Prime cassilas and even Kahn both easily rank above while Gigi is goat tier)
     
    Afghan-Juventus repped this.
  19. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Here's an old topic I came across (from 2001) discussing Zidane vs Figo

    http://www.xtratime.org/forum/45-po...st-player.html#/topics/33874?page=1&_k=edvr7u

    At the time, both players were 28-29 and at the peak of their powers. The people who were discussing Zidane vs Figo on that old threat are not blinded by nostalgia, they were watching both players on a weekly basis.

    The general consensus was that they are fairly evenly matched, so I'm not sure why post-retirement Zidane was elevated to Maradona's status and several tiers above Figo.
     
    leadleader and carlito86 repped this.
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Zizou did 3 things that Luis Figo couldn't
    A.)Score 3 times in 2 different world cup finals (only Pele managed to do this while Geoff Hurst got Lucky with his dodgy hattrick in 66)

    B.)Score the greatest CL goal of all time in the final (which just happened to be the winner in a 2-1 victory)

    C.)put on a great performance at euro 2000 where most would agree he was the clear standout performer

    These are the 3 things elevated zidane rightly or wrongly from figo's level to a now undisputed top 20 all timer
    Ability wise i would probably say they are equal
    Shooting: equal
    Dribbling: Figo
    Passing: Luis Figo
    Leadership qualities: zidane
    Consistency: zidane
    Big game mentality: zidane
    Technical ability: zidane (clearly)

    When they were both at their best one couldn't say that either player was far better then the other
    For example in 2000 i believe zidane lost the Ballon dor for his headbutting incident
    But even then Figo probably had his career best season that year in addition to having a strong euro performance so perhaps he was a deserving winner

    Personally I considered zidane to be a technical marvel a very flashy type player who could come up with the goods when it truly mattered
    Figo on the other hand could never be described as a game changer or "go to guy" even when compared to other elite wingers
    George best 1967/68
    Ronaldo 2006/07 and 07/08
    Arjen robben 2014
    Are examples of wingers who carried a significant goal threat in addition to being prolific dribblers and assisters.

    Note
    By the way whoever said zidane was challenging Diego is probably smoking crack(honestly)
    There is absolutely no comparison to be made here

    Maradona was a goat level dribbler when he was a teenager in argentinos juniors(WAY before he came to Europe)

    I just recently rewatched his rare Solo goal against deportivo periera in 77 when he was like 17 years old
    If the quality of the footage had been greater most fans would've ranked it as possibly the greatest Solo strike in history (I advise you watch it if you haven't already)

    Back to the topic at hand diego maradona just has way to many advantages over zidane
    He was more consistent
    5-10× a better dribbler
    An incomparable passer
    Better finisher (the gap is smaller but still wide enough)
    Etc

    In the words of Michel platini
    "What zidane could do with a ball maradona could do with an Orange"
    Case closed.
     
  21. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
  22. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That was Zidane at the peak of his fame (after euro 2000). This is what pundit Jimmy Greaves said in 1988 about playing against Pelé in 1964: "If Maradona is valued at £6 million, Pelé at his peak today would be worth £10 million." That Pelé was subsequently beaten by 3-0 against Argentina didn't matter.

    I guess you see the point?

    Zidane was not of Maradona's match-winning level, but in a few ways he has actually become underrated.

    This was in 1980.

    Neither of them were particularly consistent players (and had varying levels of smoke around them), in a fit and not-injured state. The same can be said about comparisons with Garrincha or Best to name just two others.

    That is what I mean with that he has become, in some ways, underrated (in my eyes). Also the dominant myth that Serie A had in 1987 historically awesome competition while in reality the opposite is true (and I'm not using a hyperbole). No such obvious myths exist for Zidane, any more. I say obvious because it can be demonstrated in five sentences.

    Anyway, it is flogging to a dead horse. Zidane has become underrated even though he was as an athlete not quite of that level.
     
  24. ChizzyChisnall

    ChizzyChisnall New Member

    Feb 2, 2017
    Club:
    AC Siena
    Interesting that you say 1987 Serie A is overrated. Care to elaborate more? What period do you think is Serie A's strongest/most competitive?
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    "This tournament has been an unqualified success"
     
    carlito86 repped this.

Share This Page