Does Retirement overhypes?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by poetgooner, Dec 2, 2016.

  1. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    http://www.espnfc.co.uk/english-pre...paul-scholes-examples-of-post-retirement-hype

    I'm not so sure I agree with the article entirely, but I agree about people overhyping people on the day of their retirement. Since nowadays, these words are quoted on the internet for eternity, it makes the discussion about people's legacy a bit more difficult. The overuse of words such as "World-class" and "legend" isn't helping either.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The article mentions two example: Gerrard and Scholes.

    Gerrard might be a good example, I agree, but Scholes was already highly praised by team mates and opponents (including Xavi and Zidane) when he was still playing. Especially after around 2006. I don't think Gerrard was ever praised in similar wordings, until he retired indeed.

    One can disagree but it is not wrong per se that pros express this (which qualities they rate the most) - it becomes annoying when some team mates and opponents are highly inconsistent and therefore soft-soaping in their remarks.

    In fact, it can be insightful and provide an argument (not: the argument).

    Boldish example: the number of team mates who've consistently mentioned Zidane as the best they played with can be counted on one hand.
     
  3. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Zidane a perfect example, he went from one of the best players in the world to one of the best players ever in retirement, seemed to jump up a massive notch.
     
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  4. DazerII

    DazerII Member

    May 27, 2011
    It is a pity that the author of the article only focused on particular players rather than general overhyping of the past a.k.a. nostalgia. Human beings have tendency of exaggerating things from the past in either direction and it is because of this tendency we end up with the situation of overhyping of players once they retire. Imo the post career hype that these guys are getting is no less than how we seem to exaggerate anything that happened in the past in this very same forum. Take for example how people overhype Ronaldinho's 05/06 season even going as far as ignoring evidence in front of their eyes.

    Unfortunately the biggest culprits are normally English media although I have also noticed how certain player have been getting better each year that passes after their retirement. On the other hand legacy of other players seems to diminish every year that passes after their retirement, e.g. Rivaldo, Pires, Beckham, Del Piero, etc.
     
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  5. KennyDalglish

    KennyDalglish Member

    Feb 2, 2007
    There are two kinds of English players - the world class players and the rest. Basically, once an English player crosses that minimal threshold of good - they are suddenly world class players who are probably the greatest players of their generation. (In recent times, Gerrard, Lampard, Ashley Cole and Rooney comes to mind)

    So, Now the question is - are Scholes and Gerrard overrated and are they overrated even further post retirement?

    Lets start with Gerrard. Gerrard was overrated during his peak years in Liverpool. No questions asked. People kept talking about how he was one of the greatest players of his generation when he was seldom the best player in his team. As a simple example, take Xabi Alonso. Alonso was at all points of his career good enough to play for any club in the world, liverpool was the best club Gerrard was good enough to play for. Yes, he probably could have played for another English club - but again, because he was english - not because he was world-class.

    That being said, Gerrard was great by English standards amongst the pool of English players - but being one of the better English players translates to being one of the better players in the world (accorind to EPL commentators) unfortunately and post retirement, English commentators will keep hyping their favorite English players. I dont think they could technically overrate him beyond the level he was at during his time in Liverpoool since he was 'one of the greatest players in the world' apparently while he was playing. So I dont that can be improved upon unless they start saying Gerrard is better than Messi or something like that.

    Scholes is actually a slightly different case. Problem with Scholes was that he was not a leader - so the hype associated with a Gerrard tended to be more than that associated with Scholes. However, Scholes was the best English player of his generation in terms of pure ability. People complain that he didnt quite deliver in English colors but England was mediocre with or without Scholes - so we are probably talking about how Scholes was not capable of making the English team less mediocre and that would remain one of his failings. But he had a great Manchester United career and once he retired- It meant the best English player retired. The hype with him will increase with each passing year because he was the best English player of his generation. He had lesser exposure during his playing days in comparison to Gerrard (primarily because of his failings with the national team) - but because he was underrated by English standards, post-retirement, there is only scope for overrating his career. Gerrard - not quite so much, he was overrated when he was playing either way.

    The article tries to generalize how this works but IMO it is case by case. Every player will have a different story.
     
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  6. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It's ironic that the person who wrote that article, is using Zinedine Zidane as the ideal argument against overhyped post-retirement. Ironic, because Zidane pre-retirement was widely considered a Top 20-25 all timer at best, whereas Zidane post-retirement is often times mentioned as a Top 5-10 all timer.
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Zidane was ranked a potential top ten all timer during his career not after it

    It was only when he retired some fans called him the GOAT in absolute terms,previously however he was always considered to be one of the very best in history(top 10)

    Franz Beckenbauer,di Stefano,Pele,Ronaldinho,ruud gullit etc have all described zidane as being a unique and all time legend during his playing career

    Just where the hell do you get your rankings and polls from?
     
  8. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Zidane was not considered a unanimous Top 10 all timer during his career. Some people did considered him a Top 10 all timer, but for the most part, he was recognized as a Top 11-25 all timer, who simply was not great enough to break into the Top 10 rankings. Top 10 all timers IN THEIR PRIME do not struggle against players like Luis Figo, Del Piero, Totti, Pavel Nedved, etc. Zidane did repeatedly struggled against players like Figo or Del Piero, because Zidane was not a Top 10 all timer at any point in his career.

    As is typical of you - you have no actual opinion to offer besides your typical bullshit where you use the opinions of others to justify your own lack of education on the subject.
     
  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Hardly any player is considered a unanimous top 10 all timer(maybe only 4-5 players are unanimous the rest differ from one continent to another)

    In Europe he was rated by the press and his peers as somebody who was at the minimum the best European footballer since Cruyff.

    I'm not entirely sure how he was viewed as a player in South America
    I assuming that after the ass whopping he gave Brazil in 06 in a world cup quarter final they most probably rated him highly.

    In 2004( 2 years before his retirement) Zidane was voted the greatest European footballer in history by a online uefa fan poll
    (150,000 fans took part in the voting)
    Beckenbauer came second and Cruyff third
    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2004/apr/23/newsstory.sport5
     
  10. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

    Jun 7, 2000
    Baltimore
    Club:
    DC United
    Country:
    Gibraltar
    Not sure what you mean by 'struggle against' ... It's not like the players you list ever defended him on the field. In fact some of them were actually his team mates.
     
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  11. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #11 leadleader, Dec 5, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
    Zidane today is regarded, widely regarded, as a Top 5-10 all timer. He wasn't regarded anywhere near that highly when he was playing. That was my fairly simple point i.e. your point about how "hardly any players are" is totally obsolete since it doesn't actually address nor even attempts to refute my point.

    Pele, Maradona, Garrincha, Cruyff, Eusebio, Di Stefano, Puskas, Beckenbauer, R9, Platini - were all rated higher by a majority of the world. What exactly is the logic behind the opinion that Zidane was better than Platini?

    Rating him highly and rating him as a unanimous Top 10 all timer, are obviously different things. Furthermore, Zidane's performance was not an "ass whopping" in any way, shape, or form - he failed to create one single opportunity from open-play, and his assist was the result of Roberto Carlos not doing his job. Hardly an "ass whopping" type performance, albeit it was an impressive performance in terms of the technique and style that Zidane displayed.

    In any case, World Cup 2006 does not really qualify as "during his career" given the fact that WC 2006 represented just 7 additional games to Zidane's entire career. In his career, Zidane wasn't as highly rated as he became after the 2006 World Cup.

    An online UEFA fan poll... That's hardly a reliable source, and by that same principle, R9 in 2004 was already widely viewed "by online fan polls" as a Top 5-10 all timer. I fail to see how any of that consistently refutes my statement that Zidane's legacy grew exponentially post-WC, and at the expense of his France teammates most of which were grossly underrated.

    You are more-than-welcome to subscribe to any silly "fan polls." But please don't embarrass yourself any further by thinking that such polls actually are consistent arguments against the known fact that Zidane is overrated, and that Zidane's status grew exponentially post-retirement. Please explain how Zidane was better than Platini?

    Would Platini in the same team as Henry, Vieira, Deschamps, etc., not have accomplished more or less about the same as Zidane?
     
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  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I think this happened in some circles after his euro2000 and/or 2002CL win, not necessarily after his retirement. There were certain polls around 2004 where he finished high. This happened in a short window of time indeed.

    At the same time, there were many managers, analysts, colleagues, experts etc. who voiced otherwise.
     
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    We aren't discussing whether or not zizou's career was worthy of top 10 all time status but rather if he was ranked(rightly or wrongly) in his playing career as a all time legend.

    You already know that I think zidane's legacy has been inflated a huge deal before and after his retirement
    this doesn't change the fact that zidane was widely regarded to be a living football legend long before world cup 06

    Note:
    There was a 2005 bbc documentary that I can't seem to find that featured the late bobby Robson
    From what I can recall they were discussing the top 10 greatest players in history and whether or not the then young Wayne Rooney had the potential to be a all timer in the future.

    The top 10 candidates they all agreed on were
    (In no particular order)
    George Best
    Pele
    Maradona
    Beckenbauer
    Cruyff
    Eusebio
    puskas
    zidane
    platini
    zico
    The football panel including bobby Robson ranked zidane at either 8th or 9th.

    look with hindsight it is easy to say zidane wasn't as great as he was often portrayed to be in the media.
    For me he was a graceful but not dominant player . He wasn't the kind of player to completely dominate over the course of a single season(or calendar)
    (For example his best form over the course of a single season wasn't much better than players like Figo,Rivaldo,Henry etc)
    the main thing that separates him from the rest is his moments of genius

    2 goals in the final to win France's first ever world cup trophy
    His volley against leverkusen which is widely considered to be the greatest CL goal ever to win madrid's 9th champions league trophy
    and 2 very good international tournaments with shades of all time form(vs Portugal 2000 and Brazil 06)
    Without these accomplishments he would be in the same rank as players like Hagi,Bergkamp,,savicevic,,Rivaldo, etc
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here's some added perspective;


    Gerrard was nominated for the EPotY in 2001, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008.

    He received votes in 2001, 2005, 2007, 2008. Overall he's for the 2000s slightly outside the top 20, or slightly in.

    Gerrard was nominated for the PFA player of the year in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2014.


    Scholes was nominated for the EPotY in 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2007.

    He isn't anywhere to be found for the 2000s overall list, or also the 1990s when Scholes emerged in the second half of the decade (slightly 'lucky' that his career wasn't affected that much by the various rule changes of the decade). In fact, he never received votes.

    Scholes was nominated for PFA player of the year in 2003 (as second striker) and 2007 (his first year as re-invented player).


    This is the backdrop for subsequent thoughts and ideas.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I had a look at that 'ACTIM index' thing between 2005 and 2009 (which replaced the previous OPTA index). This one takes bottom-up statistics (e.g. goals, assists, passes, chances, through balls, tackles, interceptions) to determine the player's standing.

    Scholes ranks much higher in 2005 (#17 compared to #39) and 2007 (#6). Gerrard ranks much higher in 2006 (#4), 2008 (#9) and 2009 (#9, again).

    Gerrard was in 2005-06 behind Van Nistelrooij, Lampard, Henry.

    Scholes ranks higher from a top-down point of view (i.e. does he make his team win). For the full career he's more than 10 points higher in the GI metric and there's also another more basic metric around where Scholes is higher too. Both played for their entire career in the same league. The difference isn't an enormous amount, not necessarily significant, but he (or: his team) has also a more loaded trophy cabinet.


    I'm not saying it is true, but it is not an crazy idea to think Scholes was relatively underrated. Although I think all the praise by the world superstars came after 2006, rather than after his retirement.
     
  16. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    [​IMG]

    After 2006 WC, Brazilian media Placar insisted that Zidane is no.3 or no.4 footballer of all time, also if he had won 06 WC, he might be best footballer behind Pele.

    IMO, Zidane is edge of Top10, anyway I don't agree he is overrated after retirement.
     
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  17. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    If anything, you're proving the hypothesis.
     
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  18. Raute

    Raute Member

    Jun 9, 2015
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    He was just awesome in 06WC, his high reputation is naturally. July 2006 is too early to label as post-retirement of Zizou.
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Interesting:

    "Do you have a graph about Scholes? So many worldclass players say he was the best."

    Reply:
     
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    This completely debunks the myth that Zidane was only considered top 10 material after his retirement

    @leadleader
    2006 isn't all that long ago and everybody (except you that is) recognises and accepts that Zidane was rated at the least the best player of his generation (even ahead of R9)

    interestingly Raute's south american source points out that had zizou won WC06 many would've rated him as top 5(potentially even top 3 material).

    This is exactly what I was trying to
    explain to you on the other thread when I pointed out that had buffon not pulled of that save and Zidane had scored in the WC final many would've considered him to be the protagonist behind 2 world cup trophies and that is an achievement only Pele has accomplished in football history

    Back in 06 the vast majority of fans including myself considered international achievements to be superior to Club achievements that was just the standard school of thought shared by both casual and learned fans
    (Zidane was also rightly or wrongly viewed as the man for the big occasion in fact he was often portrayed by the media at the time to be the ultimate big game player)

    most posters agree with you that Zidane has become overhyped since his retirement but where I differ with you is when you claim that Zidane was only considered to be a top 11-20 all time at most during his playing career.
    This IMO couldn't be further from the truth.

    There are many other examples of recent players who were vastly overrated after either their prime or playing careers

    1.)in 2006 Ronaldinho was considered to be the best player in the world and one of the most gifted players of his era
    A decade later in 2016 despite doing nothing noteworthy in 10 long years he has been ranked as high as top 30 all time and his peak level even higher
    (Mostly by under 15 year olds)

    R9 has gone from having the potential to be the best striker in history to being talked about as if he was a potential goat candidate(top 5 all time which for a number of reasons is simply ridiculous)

    cases of players being overhyped or even overrated can be made against a host of other players some more recent than others
    (Zidane is just one name in a long list of football players so I don't understand why you so actively try to discredit him as if he was the 1st or second player ever to be overrated)


    Zidane was like watching a ballerina or even a master piece in a art gallery.
    I think this goes back to the whole style over substance thing but if we are talking strictly about stylish players(doesn't have to be the one who pulls of the most elaborate dribbles or skills) then Zidane has to be mentioned(alongside Diego) as one of the best.

    Messi,CR7,R9,Ronaldinho in their primes were probably 2-3× more effective than prime Zidane ever was but for me at least don't conjure up the same level of emotions as zizou did when he was on top of his game
     
  21. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Ok, that newspaper was published AFTER Zidane retired. BEFORE the 2006 World Cup, nobody expected much from Zidane given Zidane's consistently disappointing form in season 2005-06 and also season 2004-05. Zidane absolutely did became overrated immediately post-retirement, with the 2006 WC serving as an obvious platform for him to go from a Top 20 all timer, into a Top 5 all timer.

    Tu put it in simpler terms: Zidane was transformed, in less than a month, from the player who was widely regarded or at least marginally regarded as inferior to Nedved 2003, Ronaldo 2003, Figo 2000, Rivaldo 1999, Ronaldo 1998, Pirlo 2004, Ronaldinho 2004, etc., into a player who now was widely regarded as a Top 5 in the all time rankings, and as an automatic Top 10 all timer. Now try to imagine CR7 loosing out about 4-5 of his prime year Ballon d'Ors to players not named Messi?

    That's the textbook definition of post-retirement grand delusion, in my opinion at least. Here is a player who - unlike Cruyff or Messi or Maradona - never dominated club football, won a World Cup that was played in France, and enjoyed the company of an all-star French team. As unique as Zidane was from a stylistic point of view, I simply consider it an insult to even contemplate the idea that he was ever even remotely close enough to a Top 5 all timer.

    Overall, you're certainly not alone in thinking about Zidane as highly as you do - I doubt that I will ever convince you to the contrary, and I also doubt that my opinion about him will drastically change at any point in the future. Furthermore, Zidane was widely regarded as the best player of his generation, but to be fair, we all know that R9's injury is probably the only reason why R9 wasn't regarded as the best player of that generation.
     
  22. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    I would contest this. I believe it is accepted by many, including myself, that R9 has a claim to best player of that generation, particularly if judging on talent as R9 had an amazing career, despite being marred by injury. If he was able to maintain CR7 levels of fitness who knows what else he'd done.
     
  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #23 carlito86, Dec 20, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
    Riquelme in 2005

    "People say I never smile when I play but I never saw Zinedine Zidane laugh whether he's winning or losing and he's the best player there has been over the last 10 years"

    Even known Barcelona apologist Guillem balague named Zidane as the so called 4th king of football alongside Di Stefano,Diego and Pele
    And this was way back in 2007
    https://arjyomitra94.wordpress.com/2015/06/02/quotes-on-zinedine-zidane/

    The consensus seems to be that Zidane and R9 were the 2 standout players of their generation.
    The main difference between them is R9 had a peak period during which he was clearly above the competition (1996/97 and 1997/98)
    Zidane didn't despite what his 3 wpoty awards would suggest

    Zidane had longevity at the highest level which R9 didn't and he was also the undisputed best player of the original galacticos a team that just happened to host many of the top 10 players in the world at the time.

    I guess it comes down to personal preference
    A.)a player who was top 5-6 in the world every single year from 1997-2003

    B.)a player who was unanimous best player for 2 years and probably top 5 in 2002/03 but by age 26 was completely unrecognisable
    (Huge credit always has to be given to r9 for his injury comebacks.
    just how many could comeback from a career ending injury score 8 goals in a world cup including 2 in the final and remain a top 10 player for 2 more years.)

    So I agree that if we were only comparing them in natural ability R9 wouldn't just edge zizou but IMO would be a country mile ahead.
    but there is much more to it than that.
     
  24. PMFmdf

    PMFmdf Member

    May 15, 2016
    #24 PMFmdf, Dec 20, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
    A good example of how retirement plays a role in a player status is Maradona´s case too. While he was playing, he was is the conversation for being regarded as the most talented player ever, yes, but nowadays he is simply a God that must be respected and not scrutinized by mere mortals, up there with Pelé and any legendary player should not be compared to him until deliver a WC86. All those seasons when he was outscored by 3/4 players in Serie A even being the primary PK taker, his problematic years at Barcelona, all those Copa Americas that he was a merely passenger, all those games in WC90 apart 2 or 3 brilliant moments, should be forgotten, it´s Maradona we are talking about. I have no idea how so many people put him above Messi. I even read many times here how Messi aim goals and goals and some assists too and is not much involved in the build up. I presume these same posters truly believe that players like Maradona and Zico were pure playmakers. I was never a passionate fan of a specific team, so it has been really hard for me to try to understand why Real Madrid fans can not be objective about a rival player, even when they try to make a fair analyze, they simply let their dislike for Messi between the lines. So, let´s be fair here, Maradona is overrated, C.Ronaldo is correctly rated and Messi is, actually, underrated nowadays.
     
  25. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #25 carlito86, Dec 20, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
    Maradona was correctly rated during his playing career and post retirement.
    No sensible analyst has ever denied he was a flawed genius but still a unique and unsurpassed natural talent

    Since when did Maradona need to be in contention for goalscorer awards to be the best player(I've never heard anyone say this before)
    Maradona is correctly rated(top 2/3 all time and on talent has a case for undisputed number 1)

    Messi is nowhere near to being classed as underrated IMO
    many consider him to be the greatest club footballer of all time (or at least joint first
    With Pelé)
    Winner of 5 ballon dors,unanimously considered to be the greatest Barcelona player of all time,was voted in a recent 2015 uefa poll as the greatest CL player of all time etc
    There is simply no case to be made whatsoever for Messi being underrated

    Regarding CR7 just check the recent thread that got terminated by the mods to see how underrated he is by some weirdos
    Cristiano is correctly rated by genuine football experts but when it comes to some casual fans that tend frequent forums like these then I have to say you couldn't be further from the truth
     

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