Does Rafa know what he is doing?

I hate the game in hand argument but if United match results with Liverpool and win their extra match then they are top, they don't even need Liverpool to slip up. Also, Liverpool have to face Chelsea in a couple weeks in what will almost certainly be do or die for the Blues... not that I have any faith at all Chelsea will get anything from Anfield.

The signings have been crap, though you forgot to add in the quite useful Riera. I personally envisage more problems for Liverpool when they actually have to focus on the league, Europe and probably the FA Cup as well. How long has it been since they've actually been in contention for the league and haven't gone all out for the "Champions" League?

 

Forgot about Riera. I've been impressed with him. He performs his role well and deliverys exactly what a great number of poeple were saying Liverpool needed: width.

 

Why is Lucas being discussed alongside new signings in this thread - he is not a new signing. Lucas has not been anonymous. He had an excellent match against Newcastle recently and has had a much better second season than Anderson. Riera has been a great signing for us so far. Cavalieri has done OK. Degen cannot be assessed on the basis of less than 2 games. He has been injured for most of the time. N'Gog has done OK - a goal and a couple of assists in his few appearances so far. Dossena started of badly but had a few impressive matches before being injured. Keane has missed a lot of sitters but has chipped in with 7 goals and 4 assists.

 

There is no way you can defend Benitez's transfer record. I'm not surprised that Liverpool are reluctant to give him full control over transfers.

 

So far, he hasnt had control of the transfers and negotiations. That has been up to Rick Parry, who has missed out on many of Rafa's 1st choice targets.

Surprising that someone as knowledgable as you hasnt heard of all the mistakes that Parry has made.

 

Don't try to excuse his record.

 

Im not trying to excuse his record. Most Liverpool supporters know that he has made mistakes, just as every other manager has. There are plenty of players that have come to Melwood and failed, either due to problems adapting to a new league and new country, gelling with teammates, not working hard enough etc.

Look at our senior, reserve and U18 squads at the start of Rafa's 1st season at the club compared to those three squads now and the current team makes that past squads look amateur.

You just dont seem to be very in tune with what happens at our club (understandably given that you probably dont care) which IMO makes it more difficult to make solid contributions.

The way you talk about his transfer record sounds exactly like what we hear from those media experts at Sky, Goal, Dail Mail et al. If you do have any interest, it would be wise to understand the complete package rather than just what you read or hear from media.

The main part of Rafa's new contract that he wants which is different to the current situation is his control of the academy...the structure, who comes in (players and coaches), coaching philosophies etc. Him "controlling" transfers isnt such a big part given that he already has some say in those transfers after Eduardo Macia makes his final decisions.

 

Of course he knows what he is doing.

But it wont work.

 

His name was raised when discussing players that Rafa has wasted money on*. I said Lucas had not justified his price tag and was told to give him time. Well, 6 months later on,. I still see no improvement from this player. His contribution last night against Everton was to simply give away free kicks which set the tone for the Everetoin equaliser. Well done Lucas.

*I stated that Benitez was, in my opinion, wasting his time trying to sign Gareth Barry because I felt Xabi Alonso was a better player and he'd be better off spending the £18m on a striker or wide player. Now, as this season has proved, Alonso has been delivering nothing but value all season (to the point of being Liverpools best player) and has been instrumental in taking Liverpool to the summit of the EPL for some time. Now, they may have been knocked off of late but that does not diminish Alonso's contribution. That some Liverpool fans dismissed me as "knowing nothing" makes them look evebn more stupid. It seems I know more about their club than they do - hell, they don't even know the value of the players in their own squad.

Rafa's record has got even worse. Everyone of his summer signings has been a flop with the exception of Riera. Keane is a shadow of the player he was at Tottenham, Dosenna is, quite frankly, the worst Italian defender I've ever seen, Degen has been annonymous and Lucas, who I was told to give time because of his recent arrival and age is still looking like the under-whelming average player I suggested he was 6 months ago.

 

Lucas didnt set the tone for the match...he came on only for the last 10 minutes and it was the 11 players that were on the pitch after Gerrard opened the scoring that set the tone. We didnt push on for the 2nd goal and Pepe, Skrtel and Hyypia wasted time with the ball at the back and held onto possession until one of those 3 hit a long ball to Kuyt/Torres.

Benayoun was the main culprit for the goal and Skrtel, Hyypia and Carragher were also partly at fault for the goal.

However, if our team cant hold onto a one goal lead and not concede in the last 10 minutes, then its not Lucas' fault or Benayoun's...the whole team must improve otherwise we do not deserve the title and we will not win it.

Lucas was Brazilian player of the year and had captained his country. He was a key player for Gremio and only cost around 6 million pounds, which is probably not even paid for yet. He is still only 22 and has only been in England for 18 months. He had great performances vs Inter in both legs of the CL tie last season and played many more good games both off the bench and from the start. This season he hasnt played as much as last season and has been restricted mainly to substitute appearances as a defensive minded player, not playing his usual role as a playmaker. Against Newcastle he was a key reason for our dominance in that match and showed his quality. I have full faith in him to succeed at Liverpool, especially given how hard he reportedly works in training and his determination on the pitch.

On this season's signings, surely they have contributed something given our team's improved performance even without Torres for the majority.

Dossena was bought as a 1st team player to challenge for the LB spot with Aurelio. In attack he has been very good, supplying many dangerous crosses and linking well with Riera. In defence, he has only had 2 consistent matches where he defended well for the 90 minutes. I do cut him some slack given that he played all of last season in a 3-4-3 system and was given much more freedom in attack. He will get better and people must understand that the transfer from Italian to English football is one of the hardest to accomplish, which is backed up by quite a few quality footballers not making their mark in England.

Degen was a free transfer, brought in to be back up to Arbeloa. He hasnt contributed yet due to 2 unfortunate injuries...broken ribs in his first match and another injury recently. He will come back within the next few weeks and hopefully make a meaningful contribution towards the end of the season.

Keane is the odd one out of the rest of this seasons new players. All the other players have had to move countries, adapt to new leagues, learn a new language etc. Keane should have come in and adapted quickest out of all players, including Riera, who has been outstanding this season and probably needs a week off to refresh. Given his quality and level of performance, as well as Babel's poor form, he has played in most matches and consistently provided what we have needed for a while now.

Only Torres has adapted to the team as quickly and effectively as Riera.

Back onto Keane...everyone expected him to provide a good performance whenever he was on the pitch. However, despite the number of assists he has recorded, he hasnt been linking up well with the midfield, forwards and wingers as well as not scoring goals. 4 of his goals have been scored in two matches, so he hasnt actually scored in many seperate matches. It is worrying that he only seemed to perform well after scoring a goal, wheras Torres, Kuyt and Gerrard have performed well in the CF and SS positions without scoring a goal.

Now that Torres is fit, Keane will spend more time on the bench as Rafa will want to play the 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard supporting Torres as that is the system that we have played our best football.

Keane just seems lost and also needs to stop acting like a child. In the derby he cursed under his breath when he saw his number on the subs board, despite not doing anything for 65 minutes. There was no reason why he shouldve stayed on the pitch and as soon as he went off, Gerrard found space in the middle of the pitch and we scored. Coincidence? I dont think so.

 

Come on Grinners, Dossena has been aweful? I don't know a single Liverpool fan who says otherwise. He's not a great defender and given that Chelsea have Cole, Arsenal have Clichey and Utd have Evra, Dossena falls well below any of those players.

Lucas has had plenty of opportunities this season has been totally underwhelming in every single one. Two games against an Inter Milan side who surprised everyone by how poor they were is not testimant to his ability.

I said 6 months ago that he looked average and I don't think anyone, including most honest Liverpool supporters, would say that he's done anything of late to prove that opinion wrong.

In short, he's not been what you would expect of Brazils under-21 captain and player of the year.........

 

Rafa Benitez is quite good to set a strategy in a one-off game. And he makes his teams play quite defensively that's why he got sucess in the Champions League but not in the Premier.

TOTOMUNDI

 

Admittedly, Dossena has fallen short of what was expected, considering his transfer fee and reputation.

I do think Rafa knows what he is doing. I don't always agree with some little tactical and transfer decisions he makes. I don't always agree with the comments he makes to the press about other teams and about the situation within the club.

But in the big picture of things, since he has come, Liverpool has improved. Some will say I am drinking the Rafa kool-aid or have my red-tinted glasses on, and that's fine.

My hope is that Rafa stays with Liverpool. Since he has come, our first team and reserve/youth teams have improved. We have the Premiership's best keeper. We almost have a legitimate defense all the way across. We have one of the best midfields in the world. We have two strikers that once they learn to work together will be absolutely unstoppable.

The players believe in Rafa. The supporters believe in Rafa. The owners and Rick Parry suck donkey balls.

In Rafa We Trust.

 

I do think that Dossena has been poor over the 1st part of this season. I thought i outlined that when i said that he has only had 2 good defensive games throughout the whole season. In attack he has been good, however in his main role as a defender, he has struggled to know when to close down the wide players and when to back off. Once he learns how and when to close down players, he will get better.

Lucas has only made 20 appearances this season, which includes only 10 starts. He has 1 goal and 4 assists, which is more assists than Riera, Benayoun and Alonso and the same number of assists as Keane, Babel and Aurelio. Despite having an under-par season, his numbers arent too bad.

He also performed his role very well against Arsenal just recently. So far in his Liverpool career, his record against the big sides and in big games is very good.

 

I agree with Grinners on this one. For being our fourth choice in the center of midfield, he has done pretty much what we have expected from him as Liverpool supporters.

He is still inconsistent sometimes. Careless sometimes. Stupid sometimes. A lot of players are like that, but he is learning from the best at Liverpool.

 

I agree on these points.

Even though it seems like I hate him, I like Benitez as a manager. I think he's doing ok and his work with Valencia is prrof that, when given the right support, he can make asuccess out of a team, even if he's up against teams with more resource.

I think his CL win was a hige acheivment but it's a monkey on his shoulder now. It has put him in the position where he has to start challengeing for the title at some point. This season, his 5th (?), is the first time Liverpool are credible challenger and the reason for that is, in my opinion, is because he's spent too much money on players that have failed to deliver what was required of them. Lucas, in my opinion, is one of those, but then opinion isn't worth the paper it's printed on............

 

Along with his failed signings (most of which have made a profit) and ones that are in limbo he has made some genuinely superb signings.

Whenever Rafa has spent more than 10 million pounds, that player has been a success. Obviously Robbie Keane has so far been the one exclusion. Reina, Mascherano, Alonso and Torres are all key players for Liverpool and will be for many more seasons.

Agger, Skrtel, Arbeloa and Riera are also signings that are and will be key players for many more seasons and were all bargains for the quality they have and the performances they have also shown.

Also...Aurelio, Benayoun and Crouch can not be classed as failed signings. They have been and were good squad players that have contributed when needed.

Sissoko and Luis Garcia have left, but both provided good performances in their time at the club.

One thing that does get forgotten is the quality young signings that Rafa has made.

Babel, Lucas, Leto, Hammill, Anderson, Insua, El Zhar, Nemeth, Pacheco, Bruna, Ngog, Plessis, Bouzanis, Mihaylov, Saric, Hobbs, Dalla Valle, Kasami, Buchtmann, Kacaniklic and Amoo all have the talent to be 1st team players at Liverpool and some have already established themselves at the club. At the moment, i would suggest that the first 11 names will make it into the Liverpool 1st team over the next 5 years, whether as key players or just squad players, if they already havent.

Dossena and Keane are the 3 most recent signings that havent done what was expected. I have excluded Degen as we havent seen him on the pitch long enough to prove that he is good enough. My opinion is that we will see him next season as well...Rafa is one who shows faith in his signings and makes sure he gives them 1 season to show if they are worth keeping.

At the end of the season, my prediction is that Dossena will still be at the club, while Aurelio will not. Dossena is a class above Aurelio when he is playing well and has the ability to be a permanent fixture in the team. He hasnt made many appearances, but so far, he has not been a success and will need to work even harder during the 2nd half of the season to learn English, learn the system and adapt to English football.

Keane also has the ability and has made the 5th most appearances this season. His attitude has been shit recently and im starting to get sick of his actions on the pitch towards other players and when he has been substituted. He has no excuses as to why he hasnt contributed. He has dug himself a hole now, as he didnt perform when Torres was out and now that Torres, Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano are fit, we will be seeing those 4 on the pitch centrally. This Sunday's FA Cup match with Everton might be one of his final chances to keep his status as a 1st team player, rather than just a squad player and substitute.

 

I don't understand why Lucas is being judged so harshly by some.

He hasn't been perfect, but in my unbiased () opinion he has been at least equal to if not better than United's Anderson. Cheaper too.

I thought Keane was over his bout of under-performing. He did fairly well while Torres was out. Not great, but not bad.

 

That's a negative.

 

This thread is just being used as an excuse by rival fans to criticize Liverpool players and Rafa. Hence all the input by Everton and Man U fans saying such and such a player is no good etc. There is little attempt at objectivity. Similarly Liverpool fans would laugh at the signings of Beattie, Johnson, Forlan, Veron and Kleberson etc when assessing other managers.

 

That's be the same Anderson who made a huge and priceless contribution to a Man Utd side that won the leagie title and Champions League last season? I think not.


Anderson shows a higher work rate and more athleticism, even if his shooting is wotrse than Elmer Fudd. This may explain wy he has made a bigger impression in the EPL, which is acknowledged to be a league which leans towards the more athletic and physical demands of the game.

Reina, Mascherano, Alonso and Torres are all well worth their investement. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. Same goes for Skrtel and Agger. But I think you're being too sentimental towards the other players because they made an honest contribution, but not neccasarily a big one. Kuyt was £11m and as much as he's a decent player he hasn't done what you bought him to do. You bought him as a striker, no? And he's hardly been prolific. 15 goals in a good season maybe? Not league winning figures. And now you play him on the wings. For £11m I'd rather have Park any day, and we bought him for £4m. Arbeloa, Benayoun, Pennant, Crouch, Lucas, Keane (so far anyway). All have been good players in some respects who have worked hard and put in some good performances here and there but none of them stepped up to the plate when they were required too.

Case in point. In terms of talent I've no doubt that Benayoun is as talented, if not more than Darren Fletcher. But where as Fletcher is the perrenial big game player who scores vital goals and put's in solid performances all over the pitch where ever he plays, Bebayoun shows flashes of skill and talent without ever truly delivering anything solid. He flatter s to deceive more often than not. Arbeloa is a decent player of sorts but he doesn't deliver in the same way that Rafael, or John O'Shea or Wes Brown do. I know you might not rate those playes but there's no doubt they give you what you need. Many laughed at and dismissed Wes Brown last season, but no one was laughing after he'd lifted the EPL title and the CL having put in a sterling season in where he'd been arguably the finest right-back in the country all season with the possible exception of Sagna. Pennant equally never had the same impact as someone like Park, for instance, who has been one of our most consistant players for the last 2 years and has put in countless priceless performances on both the left and the right. His games against Barcelona imparticular are perfect examples of where an under-rated and often scoffed at player put's in a shift of epic proportions and it reults in the team being effective.

They say it's not your starting XI that wins you the league, but your squad players because they're often the players who are called upon to plug the gaps when first teamers are out. Liverpools squad players simply do not come up to scratch, in my opinion anyway. And if they do, they don't do it often enough.


This is not to say, of course, that Benitez is a poor manager, but his record in the market is questionable.

 

Wrong. You won't find a single Man Utd fan who will disagree with the assessment that Kleberson, Veron or Forlan were poor signings. Where as you stand up for and justify the outlay on players such as Pennant, Lucas, Benayoun and Arbeloa, I'm quite happy to acknowledge that those players named, plus the likes of Miller, Blanc and Bosnich (to name a few) were duds who were detrimental to the side. We shipped them all out and Utd are the better for it.

 

It should be said that you may feel that certain Man U players are underrated like Park and Fletcher. This may be true. It is also the case that certain Liverpool players are underrated - Lucas, Benayoun, Arbeloa are prime examples.

We got Lucas for the same price as Alan Smith. The lad has only just turned 22 and could put in another 10 years service. He is getting better all the time and has a first-class attitude. He is a box to box midfielder and can also play on the left of midfield. He actually often socialises with Anderson.

Arbeloa was a snip at £2.6 million. He has been extremely good value. He is not very high profile despite winning Euro2008 with Spain. He would not make that squad unless he was putting in impressive and consistent performances. He is inaccurately criticised by idiots as not being attacking or getting forward. This is really stupid as he often pushes up. He reminds me of the old Gary Neville in that regard. He may not be as attacking as Bosingwa but then Chelsea rely on Bosingwa attacking as their plan A.

Benayoun cost £5 million and took a pay-cut to join us. He is a very versatile player and can play either flank or in the hole. He is able to dribble past players and put a killer pass through. He has already outscored Park in half the time.

Pennant has underperformed - it is true. Riera has shown him that a winger can be tricky and a dribbler but still have variety in their play and offer a goal-threat themselves.

 

If players that you say are under-rated are as good as you say they are, then why do they keep falling at the final hurdle all the time? Let's be honest, they've not put in a league title challenge for a few years and they're looking dangerously close to throwing this one away as well.

Man Utd have an injury list of about 10 first team squad players out at the moment. Off the top of my head I can name Rooney, Scholes, Hargreaves, Ferdinand, Evra, Neville, Giggs, Nani, Anderson, Brown and Evans, all of whomb are likely to miss this weekends game.

Yet I still feel 100% confident of us beating Tottenham at the weekend.

If Torres, Keane, Kuyt, Lucas, Alonso, Riera, Carragher, Skrtel, Agger and Mascherano were all injured this weekend, how confident would you be of beating Everton?


I appreciate that Everton are a different proposition to Tottenham at the moment, but for arguments sake, would you be confident? Have your squad players got that ability to deliver what you need, do you think?

Can Lucas do what Fletcher does? Can Arbeloa do what Rafael might do?

Just asking like.