everything you said in this post just completely contradicted what you said about my statement. you said that it was somehow strange that i rated CR7 a level or 2 ahead in his previous years than his latter years for real madrid because his involvement in the game was higher. now you are saying that you value other players involvement in the game that has nothing to do with getting your name on the score sheet, like pepe and zidane. you said zidane was rated highly because of his involvement in plays which led directly to goals, whether it is him scoring or not. that`s the EXACT same reason why i rated CR7 higher in his earlier years than his past few years at madrid!! Which one is it??! and are you seriously going to rate CR7s season based on 5 games in the champions league and then call it his peak of all seasons????!!! ok, yes, he did something unprecendented. how the hell am i doubting that. you are the first person i know who rates CR7s 16-17 peak of all seasons, despite him underperforming throughout the season compared to his other years and then basing it off of 5 games.
Ah, perhaps this may be a source of the confusion. Perhaps we're viewing it similarly, just that I don't agree with this regarding CR7. Real Madrid last season was the best team CR7 has played in and this is down to his contributions specifically. You say based on '5' games, but those games were against 3 of the Top 3/4/5 teams in Europe. There are numerous players, be it Maradona or Pele, who have built their lasting legacies off less games at an international tournament. What's more, this wasn't the case of CR7 just nicking a lucky goal here and there. He scored back to back hat tricks against Bayern and Atletico, before putting the 'impregnable wall' that was supposed to Juventus's defense to the sword. Just one of those performances would be extraordinary by any measure, to have them repeated match after match is no coincidence. Take a look at his second goal against Juventus. That is pure wisdom being displayed, an understanding that comes with time. The best goalscorers do not need to be at the top physically, they simply need to understand the game in a way others (opposing defenders) cannot. This wisdom is what comes in any profession with time, be it football, writing, whatever. And, as CR7 in his current physical state already supercedes 99% of footballers, yes, I attribute much more importance to the undoubted wisdom and learnings he's gained over the years.
this is also something very important that you ponted out and i completely agree with. everyone knows juventus was a tough team defensively. the majority of people including myself voted Bayern to win over madrid before they faced off. barcelona tied atletico madrid 1-1 at the camp nou earlier that season and only beat them 2-1 later that season. so, yes, what CR7 did was monumental! but real madrid collectively was also monumental. however, given what CR7 did in the champions league, i think he deserved the trophy for the best player in europe, in august or september, but as far as the world player of the year goes for this year, 2017, so far, i give it clearly to Messi. based on what he has done on a more consistent basis. spot on. his 2nd goal for juventus was intelligence and awareness that is required over years. everything you said here correct in my opinion. However, i wouldn`t downplay CR7s 1st goal either. i think he realised, unlike many other players, that going into the box just because would not make any sense, and it would be better to hold your position and not move as all the juventus players are currently tracking back expecting a cross close to the keeper. in this sense, i would agree with you, the way he sees the game is nothing but respectable.
Glad we were able to understand one another even if we dont necessarily entirely agree. I don't agree that Messi has been the best player this year, becaus I believe the only 'big game' this year where he showed his 'true self' was at the Bernabeu when he scored that last minute goal. Obviously I know he's capable of doing that, and provided those performances were consistent this season, and consequently led to titles, I'd agree. Nonetheless, his start of the season has been incredible, even by his standards, so I understand your opinion. To comment on your point on CR7 first goal against Juventus, I am a fan of it too. But that second goal, due to its simplicity, embodies greatness for me. Sneaking into a space to slot in a goal, whilst surrounded by Bonucci, Chiellini and Buffon. The Three Defensive Musketeers the media couldn't stop gushing over prior to the game. CR7 was making that run before Modric even got to the ball. He sees a chance where others simply hope for one. Good discussion as always pal
What do you mean "the only big game"? So his game winner vs Atletico in 90th minute in league isn't a big match? Or his wonderful long range strike also vs Atletico in CDR isn't a big moment, as well as his dribble within 3 Atletico players (in 3rd completely separated game) and shot that got deflected right into Saurez's path that turned out to be a crucial goal? What about his two big, MAGICAL chance created vs Juventus' defense that put both Iniesta and Suarez into clear 1v1 situations and both missed it (that's for me more valuable than Ronaldo's two goals in final. I mean Messi did basically score those two goals. The difference is that he didn't have good enough teammates)? Furthemore, Suarez's dive vs PSG came after Messi's 40 meters pinpoint pass, if he wasn't busy with diving Messi would get an assist for that and what an important one, huh? Should i also mention 2 goals vs dangerous and tricky sides like Sevilla, Real Sociedad, Villarreal, Celta, Valencia in league matches? It can go on: Magical 90th minute free kick vs another Villarreal game to tie the game, wonderful game tieing assist vs Betis in 90th+ minute after awful display from Barcelona side, two goals vs Leganes in 2-1 win after Barcelona's disaster vs PSG and another awful performance, this is all "individual briliance" from Messi, just from top of my head and it's all 2017 calendar year. On top of all that, he had one of the greatest el clasico performances ever. It's not just "one big game". Every game is big one when your team struggles like Barcelona did last season. Messi might not have scored as much important tap ins in "big games" as certain someone, but he clearly has been the best. Messi is a never-ending source of football briliance, and he proved that over the course of last 9 months. And guess what? He keeps on proving that this season with never worse Barcelona side in his career. I just wonder who will they give credit to this season when Messi gets 60+ goals. The most recent one was that Neymar is the main Barcelona player and the reason why Messi scores that much... so far, Neymar's absence doesn't have any negative difference in Barcelona's and Messi's performance, actually it seems quite opposite, even in absence of Luis Suarez, Messi keeps on scoring and being the best. Can the same be said for "the best player this year"? Ronaldo's first start this season, Real's first lose.. I don't care about that, i just wonder when will people realize what privilege they have by watching Messi week in week out? It's inconceivably to me that anyone can think Messi hasn't been the best this year, or any other for that matter like 2010 for example.
I would also like to include his crucial goal against Uruguay in WC Qualifier & 1 goal 2 assists against Colombia. Argentina might've had no hope for qualifying for WC if not for those
Well that's 2016 part of 2016/17 season.. if we talk about that part, i can continue. Difficult goal vs Sociedad to tie the game in another awful display by Barcelona, wonderful goal and great assist to turn around game vs Sevilla and win it, 2 goals vs Valencia to turn around the game and win it 3-2 (last goal was penalty in 90th+ minute, but after a wonder dribble and setp up by Messi), another amazing dribble to set up 1-0 victory over Granada, also the two magical dribbles Messi produced vs Espanyol came in the moments when Barcelona was struggling... the guy is out of anyone's class. And also that game vs Colombia is one of the finest perfromances i have ever seen by anyone in South America match, probably the finest.
Oh no you didn't go there, Alves has most of the time owned Ronaldo. When Ronaldo was in or closer to his prime. I actually never understood that because Alves is not the greatest defender. But he had Ronaldo's number on most occasions.
I don't think Ronaldo found balance, I think balance was forced upon him by age and the team. It's still admirable what he does in the box, specially his aerial game. But this is not some willful enlightenment. If he could still play the way he used I think he would still do it even though it could be detrimental to the team.
I always see Ronaldo against Barca in 2 very different periods: The 4- or 5-year period beginning in 2007 when CR7 couldn't buy a goal against Barca, and the time since then when he scored in pretty much every game against Barca.
It's almost like the fate of the two greatest players in the world is actually dictated by how good their teams are, rather than a manifestation of their talent and grit.
Just as with some other sports (tennis for example), the average age of players at top divisions is rising now http://www.cies.ch/en/cies/news/new...y-unveils-crisis-of-youth-training-in-europe/
What about them? What did they lead to? These chances that led to no goals and consequently no titles are more valuable than Ronaldo's two goals in the final, that led to them winning said final, and the Champions League as result? He didn't have good enough teammates? Is this a joke? A player on Barcelona didn't have good enough teammates? Yet this same team, after losing Neymar, was suddenly good enough to beat Juventus 3-0 just a few weeks ago? What an absolutely crazy, crazy claim. Were you writing up such lengthy posts to explain similar, 'unfair' instances for CR7 in the past? How about when CR7 dominated Barcelona in the first 20 minutes of the 2008/2009 Champions League final, only to have his clearly lacking teammates fall short the rest of the game? I'm sure you're fully aware of that, right? Such ridiculous, laughably persistent double standards. The real sham is you thinking you're aiming for objectivity while writing such absurd statements like Messi's two set-up chances that led to no goals are actually worth more than real goals in a final. Jesus H, what a thought process.
Big games are won by big moments, Messi has done his part on several ocassions as i mentioned, but it resulted in nothing, not because Messi did something wrong or not enough but he didn't have good enough supporting cast to utilize the greatness Messi produced (at least in Juve's case). Those two passes that Messi accomplished vs Juve are the peak of football, it doesn't get better than that by anyone in history ever and could the stage be any bigger? Those moments are equal to the Maradona's assist to Caniggia against Brazil or the one to Burruchaga in 1986 final, the only difference is that Caniggia and Burruchaga scored, Iniesta and Suarez did not. If they missed it, Maradona perhapse wouldn't be two times WC finalist, not even a WC winner and history is completely changed as well as his legacy. It's not like Iniesta and Suarez missed 20 meters shots, but 1v1 situation, it can't get easier than that in big games. He spoonfeeded them and they still couldn't eat. Obviously this doesn't justify Messi's performances entirely, but in the game like football, where details matter, Messi had produced enough individual briliance to prove his quality. Should i even comment on this? So if you play for big club like Barca you never have bad days? Or am i mistaken and those misses by Iniesta and Suarez weren't actually "big chances", but difficult shots to score? Give me a break. We all witnessed one of the worst Barcelona in last decade, and you are going on card that Messi plays in Barcelona therefore he always have a good enough supporting cast? This is the bottom line. The talent and football ingenuity behind those two passes is greater than off the ball movement and deflected shot Ronaldo produced in UCL final. That sentence here is undeniable and that's on what i base my opinion. The one of them did more impressive stuffs and got humiliated, the other won UCL. Prime example that football is a team sport and not tenis or soemthing else. And did you seriously just compare group stage game vs quarter final of ucl? If anything, that match goes in my favor because Messi proved in it that, with good enough performing team, he can score against Gigi Buffon and Juventus' defense very easily. You ate your own words actually. I think you need to see them again to realize the quality: Look at it from all angles,in slow motion. Perfection Can't find video of Suarez's one.
LOL, you don't even know what you are arguing against. I am a big fan of Messi. In fact, I have at least 10+ posts historically rating him above CR7. I do not need a single match to let me know what Messi can and cannot do so you are most certainly barking up the wrong tree. What you're doing above is dissecting things in a manner I know a fact that you, and others, do not do unilaterally to other players. Do you have merit in stating that Messi provided his teammates with two great chances specifically against Juventus? Yes. To claim, however, that because of those two chances alone, in a game where his team lost because the opposing team created much more than two chances, Messi did all and everything he could is revisionism in a way that revives the spirit and aura of @Bada Bing. Iniesta and Suarez = "Not good enough supporting cast" because they missed two opportunities sums up your perspective and bias all too well. Where was Messi outside of those two chances? Where in your post do you mention that it was Messi's teammates, specifically Neymar, those you claim 'not good enough', that led to the victory against PSG? All that matters is those two chances against Juventus. How about the return leg against Juventus when Messi wasn't even the best Barcelona player? Where do you mention this? Nah, doesn't fit your narrative/agenda.
No, i am saying that it was a big game under huge pressure and he did actually produce two moments of briliance that in many cases are enough to win a game and make history, but not in this case, because of the reasons outside of Messi's control. If Iniesta and Suarez scored it and Barcelona somehow won ucl without big influence by Messi later in KO phase, in 30 years, we would look back at that moment and say that this is pure greatness and turning point, just like we do in Maradona's case. Nobody talks about his missed penalty vs Yugoslavia in quarter final or chances he missed, but that one moment of magic he produced. Messi had those last season vs Juve. It's a fine line between success and failure and in this case it definitely can't be blamed on Messi cuze he did his part of history. Since we opened Neymar discussion. What exactly has he done vs PSG and Juve beside a free kick? Messi had three moments of briliance in 4 games vs PSG and Juve, Neymar had one, two at msot if you count assist to Sergi which shouldn't because it's a regular cross and he had like 9 Barcelona players around penatly box to target on. It's luck more than anything else. What exactly Neymar has done so briliantly that Messi didn't? Since you talk about double standards, let's put it this way. Would Neymar be "a hero" if Sergi Roberto missed that chance? No, he wouldn't. I don't know why, but that scenario resembles me of something...oh yes, that's right, Messi's chances created vs Juve, which are, btw, way more difficult to produce than that cross by Neymar. Now think of the scenario where Messi's passes ended up as game winners, which could easily happen... Only thing you are basing your arguments on are outcomes. Barca lost so Messi wasn't good enough, Real won so obviously Ronaldo was. Barcelona got through PSG so Neymar is a hero and was good enough, Barcelona didn't get through Juventus so Messi isn't a hero and wasn't good enough. It's kindergarden logic and claiming that Neymar was a hero vs PSG while Messi wasn't vs Juve are an actual double standards.
Incorrect, as I gave your point on Messi's chance creation validity, as it is an important point. Just not ever enough validity to agree on what I believe is your ludicrous statement that these chances were 'more valuable' than CR7's actual goals against Juventus. Perhaps you meant you appreciate them more. That's fine, his assist to Iniesta I particularly appreciated as it reminded me of my favorite assist ever, Ronaldinho to Giuly vs. Milan. But if we're discussing who has had the better season, to supplement your argument you're using a game where Barcelona and Messi were not up to par over the course of the tie, which is why they lost by 3 goals. Not 1. Messi could have shown his usual glimpses, but as it stands, those two chances you refer to led to a 3-0 aggregate win. Something tells me those two chances and Messi's influence weren't as significant as you believe. You claim the above is more valuable than two chances that actually resulted in goals. In both instances you have two players doing what nobody else can. One in a goalscoring sense, the other in a creative playmaking sort of sense. Two different aspects of genius, your appreciation apparently leans toward the latter. Your preferences are not absolute nor do they take the outright place of pure objective measuring. Do you believe that Barcelona would have definitely won that tie if those two chances were scored? In a tie where they lost by three and could have lost by more? Where in your thinking do you consider that if Iniesta had scored the first, the rest of the game would have been different (meaning, no Suarez chance)? The dynamics of the game would have been completely altered so you cannot claim the game would have played out the same. So what do you think would have happened? You use two chances that could be very much argued would not have changed the ultimate outcome (Juventus beating Barcelona), vs. two goals against the same team, that actually happened, in the final of said competition. As you could see, delving into the world you're trying to go into can get pretty complicated, which is why you should try sticking to reality.
Nobody knows what would have happened had they converted those chances but it would put Barca in a much better position. The fact remains he created those chances. Not to mention this one at 3:50 where he stole the ball but Suarez was offsides. Looked like a certain goal. So when people say he didn't show up in the big CL game, I can only laugh at the result oriented analysis.
As usual, these things tend to move away from the basis of which they started. My claim was that Messi did not produce a 'big game' level of performance this year outside of his game against Real Madrid, where he scored game winner and was rampant all game. This is the metric being used. Two chances against Juventus in a game where Barcelona lost 3-0 does not come close to meeting those standards. Messi not only scored the game winner against Real Madrid, his overall performance was on a completely different level relative to the Juventus game. Essentially it is being argued that creating two chances in a 3-0 loss equates to 'big game' performance. Either you have low expectations of Messi or you're gunna have to re-examine what you're saying. Cause I can most certainly state that you would not be arguing the same thing if these roles, between Messi & CR7, were switched. What is clearly being exhibited here is frustration that Messi's team held him down relative to CR7. With this I do not disagree. But what is trying to be argued here is that Messi was not impacted by now being surrounded in a worse 'environment' relative to CR7. There's a string of posts above noting the irony of having to consider the importance of 'teams' in a 'team sport', while completely excluding that from their thought on this argument. We're discussing best players in a given year, not over the course of their careers and/or overall talent level. You and others are clearly trying to conflate the two. They are not the same. Messi was surrounded by worse players relative to prior years. This in turn led him to play worse relative to when he was surrounded by a Barcelona team at its peak, even if he showed his glimpses of genius. This led to the results we saw, Barcelona not winning titles. Everyone knows what Messi can do but he couldn't do them for reasons of his 'environment'. Sucks but CR7 experienced the same thing when Barcelona was clearly superior to Real Madrid. How many times did you and others write posts on that?
So many questions to ask and you go with the most boring and least telling of all. How about, 'Was Ronaldo vs. Juventus a big game performance?'. I am assuming you are avoiding the question because you know the answer. Was Messi's game against Juventus as good as his game against Madrid? Can you point to other examples where a player's performance in a clear 3-0 defeat is used as a positive comparison and reference point? Was Messi more important vs. Juventus than CR7 was vs. Juventus? Would you be arguing in the same manner if the roles were reversed? Easy answer there. Of course you wouldn't.
Ran rampant, dominant ... same thing. Was Ronaldo dominant vs Juve ? People don't look at players performances in defeat because they are results oriented. I am not saying Messi was dominant vs Juve. He wasn't. But I do have a problem with people saying he didn't show up at all. The original point being made was basically that a lot of people associate end result (scoreboard) with individual performance. I don't think that's tough to grasp.
If we evaluate individual effort and performance, there is no past this statement. Everything else includes team effort in some sense.
I find that as the single biggest problem when it comes to football analytics even within more advanced and knowledgeable football fans, as well as professionals. People are always biased towards positive outcomes and easy-to-notice things, i am guilty of it sometimes as well. Results to that are seen in every day life from ballon d'Or winners and its shortlists, FIFA XI, man of the match awards, etc. I just wonder how many great players troughout history of football have been forgoten just because they weren't featuring in the best nations or clubs.