Does it get any better from Cristiano Ronaldo than this?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Sexy Beast, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    It's no news that Cristiano is on fire for past 6 months so i wonder do you guys think he is actually at his peak at the moment (and by "at the moment", i mean past 6 months)?

    If you ask me, he is definitely at his mental peak which he demonstrates in big games. He just doesn't seem stoppable atm with that quality in Real's midfield. Technically and physically, he is definitely declining a bit, but can this be considered his peak? And if not, which period of his career you think he was at his peak?
     
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  2. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Is this really worthy of a new thread? Couldn't you have just latched on to one of the other CR7 threads that you could've bumped?
     
  3. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Actually i did search for old threads in search engine with Ronaldo in title, but it showed bunch of uploaded videos and off topic threads so i open a new thread because it was easier to me. And as far i saw, nobody cares about the order in this forum. Everybody is talking about everything off topic in every thread so..
     
  4. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    Most people on this specific thread are Barcelona/Messi supporters and anti-Cristiano. For obvious reasons when Cristiano is winning titles, personal trophies and knocking it out of the ballpark in recent games, everyone here is very quiet.

    Regarding your question, I am not sure if he is in the best form or not. What I know and care about is that he is scoring and in great physical condition. Hope we get at least two more seasons from him at this level.
     
  5. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    mental peak?? i think CR7 has always had an unbreakable mentality. if anything i thought his mental peak would have shown from 09-12, when barcelona and messi was in control and dominating. despite the fact, Cr7s numbers and performances never dropped, and actually got better from 09-12. mentality shows when things are not going well. as messi`s mentality is also unbelievable by anyone`s standards, he showed a crack after losing 3 international tournaments in a row. of course, i don`t think he was ever going to retire. it is also possible that ronaldo had second thoughts about how things would go at real madrid. remember in 12-13 he mentioned going back to manchester united because his fans showed him love. at real madrid he was doing everything he could to win but the trophies were not coming as expected and he was being booed at times.

    i personally think CR7s peak was from 07-12. if i had to pick one season i would pick 11-12. for his sheer amount of goals, involvement in the game, and his effectiveness. but that could be debated. I have the utmost respect for CR7. how he treats his body, how he recovers, his commitment to the game, his ambition. i honestly believe his mentality is second to none in sports history including the likes of michael jordan, muhammad ali, tom brady, and any other athlete you want to include.

    i wouldn`t put CR7 in the class of messi, maradona, and pele as a pure footballer, but when you look at his composure, his will, and his ability to not fold under pressure, it puts him very close to these players
     
  6. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    #6 Sexy Beast, Sep 2, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
    Actually i expected that kind of environment in football forum because members of such are bit more "advanced football fans", and not some fans who watched football for the very first time, so what happens is that those advanced football fans, being more knowledgeable and rational, think Messi is better than Ronaldo (..beacuse he is. Difficult to compare, but it comes down the fact that Messi is not just a 50+ goals a season player, but there is more to his game in the middle of the pitch that Ronaldo lacks. At the end of the day, i think even you as a Real madrid fan yourself, actually know that things that Messi does are unparralled by anyone.) and with Ronaldo generally being put at Messi's level by media, they feel like there is no need to further cherish his accomplishments because he doesn't deserve THAT MUCH in first place. Ratio of 5 to 5 ballon d'Ors for both Messi and Ronaldo, doesn't justify their quality.
    Having that said, i am aware of that, but it doesn't stop me from glorifying the greatness and uniqueness of Cristiano Ronaldo.

    Actually, i always thought Roanldo's absolute peak was from begining of 2013 up to his 30th birthday when he had a huge dip in his form in 2014/15 season.
    I mean in 2013 calendar year he had by far the best statistic in his career. He played 59 games scoring 69 times and adding 17 assists to that. For example in 2012 calendar year, he played 71 games and managed to score "only" 63 goals and 14 assists. Way worse goal/assist per game ratio and not to mention that he actually scored less penalties in 2013 than in 2012 (9 opposed to 10).
    (and imo, the best performance of his career vs Sweden was in 2013)

    In 2013/14 season he was at his average level in la liga (but he dealt with few injuries tho), but also he did score 17 in UCL being pretty good overal.
    And perhapse the most fascinating stat of them all is the begining of 2014/15 la liga campaign when he netted 28 goals in his first 18 games and added 9 assists to his name. Plus, back then, he made his longest streak in consecutive games with goals in la liga (11). And don't take this wrong, because he was great in other competitions at the time too, had wonderful performance vs Sevilla in UEFA super cup.
    Also, that period was from 28-30 years of age so he wasn't in a major decline back then, neither physically or technically.

    I am quite against calling Ronaldo from his Manchester days being his peak. He was far from defined goalscorer back then and although people like to say that he was something super special on the wing for Manchester, i don't agree with them. It's mostly nostalgia, just like claiming that Messi with his characteristic long hair (2004-2008) was a better dribbler than he was after that or right now.
    "Oh Ronaldo used to be such a great dribbler and extremely fast in Manchester days". He was nothing more than inefficient trickster back then and actually very immature on the pitch. He had talent, but he had never put it under his control (until he joined Real), but rather showboated whenever he could (like Neymar from 2014 and before that).

    EDIT: It also makes no sense to call Ronaldo from his early ages his peak, while in the next sentence say that Ronaldo accomplished everything in his career because of hard work. He had put so much hard work since Manchester days so that someone could say that some 22 years old kid in Manchester was better than he ever was after that? He improved a lot since then, and until he hasn't declined physically and technically last few seasons, he kept improving his knowledge and sense of the game via experience and that automatically made him a better player than before.
    That's the only logic that makes sense to me.

    As for mental peak. He is the most experience version of himself right now and he has never managed to perform so good in big games as he did from Bayern match up to UCL final. And it's not true that before that he didn't have great Real to set him up goals in big games, he just didn't score them. I don't think he has ever showed as much composure as last season.
     
  7. iggymcfly

    iggymcfly Member

    Jun 20, 2014
    I would agree that 2013 and 2014 was Ronaldo's peak in terms of talent as a footballer and how outright "good" he was. However, I think he may actually be more dangerous and valuable now since Zidane is getting him to actually take games off to rest and that freshness actually makes him play better both in the late spring for crucial Champions League clashes, as well as for big summer national team matches that come at the end of a long season where he'd usually be exhausted from overwork and nursing several injuries.
     
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  8. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think we can all agree that this is not his peak. Whether it gets better for him, the answer is probably also no, as he's physically declining. Can he transition into a world-class veteran? Someone who relies on elite level intelligence and technique rather than athletic force of nature? It's possible. Sports science has advanced far enough where his physique will last longer than players in the past, and his uber-professionalism and determination will serve him well. Unlike many players who develop into supporting players in old age, I can see him age well like Ibrahimovic or Romario by becoming more of a poacher. Ronaldo would be much less of a player, but still remain a world-class poacher.
     
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  9. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    although, i disagree, which is not a problem, as we are discussing what our opinion of Cr7s peak is, i understand where you are coming from. it seems like you take more priorirty in Cr7s experience and sheer numbers into consideration, where i prefer his involvement in games and creating chances whether he scores or not, as a big criteria for Cr7s peak, thus why i judged his peak from 07-12 with 11-12 being his absolute peak, being that he was more experienced and far more direct in his dribbling.


    ok. makes sense, based on your criteria of mental peak. i mean, naturally, at this point Ronaldo has so many experiences at the highest level that he has a better idea of what he has to do in multiple situations which allows for increased composure. as opposed to a young player who will panic because he has little to no experience.
     
  10. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    I agree 100%. He has mastered his mind and ego. He is self-actualized in a way few people in history will ever be able to relate to.
     
  11. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    And this mental aspect alone is proof positive enough this is his peak. This has been obvious this year. He does what he wants in any game, its a level of performance, and consistency (which is something, given him) that he never showed in his career.

    He takes good enough care of his body to dispose his improved mental abilities appropriately, altering his game accordingly and we've seen the results.

    23 year old Ronaldo that won the Ballon was as top-level athlete you can get, but that doesn't mean 23 year old CR7's ability to produce in a given game was the same, even if the potential was.
     
  12. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #12 leadleader, Sep 14, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    The so-called "real peak" of Ronaldo 2017 began in the Quarter Finals of the Champions League, very late in the season. That's just 5 games out of an entire calendar year, and that's including the Final itself... Moreover, that's a mere 5 games (out of an entire calendar year) against opponents whom are unequivocally not as strong as they were just about one to two years ago, such as Atletico Madrid (a mediocre record against top tier clubs last season, which was definitely not the case in 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2016), and Bayern Munich (too many of their best players are 32 years old or older, a lesser team in many ways compared to the 2014 Bayern Munich that Real Madrid destroyed with relative ease and without any important goals by Ronaldo), and Juventus (a team that has looked comprehensively second-rate in the two Champions League Finals it has played between 2015 and 2017), etc.

    The truth (or definitely something that comes close to whatever the truth is) is self-evident enough that - in my opinion - it renders any discussion about 2017 being CR7's true peak, as yet another argument to substantiate the claim that CR7 fanboys are even more delusional than Zidane fanboys -- no offense meant. Real Madrid is simply the best team in the world right now, by a healthy margin, so much so that they have not needed Ronaldo in many high profile games in recent years: (1) Copa del Rey Final 2014; (2) Champions League Semi Finals 2014; (3) Champions League Final 2014; (4) Champions League Semi Finals 2016; (5) Champions League Final 2016; (6) the whole of the 2016-17 La Liga season; (7) the second leg of the Super Copa 2017 (if you count the pre-season Super Copa as a high profile match); etc. In simpler terms: Clubs that had CLEARLY DECLINED like Bayern Munich 2016-17 and/or Atletico Madrid 2016-17, are simply nowhere near strong enough opposition that Ronaldo's 32 years of age should be reactively defined as his "real peak." The truth is, there's a lot more data supporting the claim that Real Madrid could easily win without Ronaldo, than there is data to substantiate the claim that 32 year old Ronaldo was actually the best version ever of Ronaldo.

    As for Ronaldo, "Doing what he wants in any game." What exactly is the precedent for that?? Scoring a bunch of goals against 10 men (DECLINED AND AGED) Bayern Munich - including the 2 off-side goals - is not much in the form of evidence of Ronaldo purportedly doing what he wants in any game. The reality of the situation is that Real Madrid 2016-17 was arguably - if not certainly - as dominant as Barcelona 2008-11, but with the comprehensive difference being the fact that Manchester United 2008-09 was much better than Atletico Madrid 2016-17 or Bayern Munich 2016-17 or Juventus 2016-17. Same for Real Madrid 2010-11, a much better team than Atletico Madrid 2016-17 or Bayern Munich 2016-17 or Juventus 2016-17. (Fun fact: Higuaín 2010-11, the version that played for Real Madrid, was better than fat-and-bloated Higuaín that played for Juventus 2016-17. So even a bench player of Real Madrid 2010-11, was better than Juventus's 2016-17 star striker, and that's not even taking into account prime Ronaldo and Xabi Alonso and Ozil, all of which were better than whatever Juventus's 2016-17 equivalent is.) Ronaldo might arguably appear to be "in his real peak" due to the fact that most of the top tier clubs of recent years have decline considerably and rapidly - Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, Bayern Munich, and also the lack of competitive English clubs - and at the same time Real Madrid has built a team that is almost as dominant - if not exactly as dominant, or perhaps even more dominant - than Pep Guardiola's Barcelona 2008-2011. A 32 year old Lionel Messi could also appear to be in "his real peak" if, in 2 years time, Barcelona suddenly became much better than 99% of the top tier clubs (all of which suddenly declined).

    Honestly... I'm all for thinking outside-the-box when there's real merit to it, but I still think it's extremely silly to even begin to imply that Ronaldo 2017 is "a higher peak" than Ronaldo at any point between 2009 and 2014. Real Madrid are just that good, that a clearly-past-his-prime Ronaldo can look that great. It's a team sport. Without Modric, Isco, Asencio - and also without the rapid and considerable decline of 99% of the top tier clubs not named Real Madrid - no seemingly credible person would've dared to openly state (and with a straight face at that) that 32 year old Ronaldo is better than 29 year old Ronaldo. Of course, this is the level of hypocrisy and delusion that is typical in Ronaldo fans - again, no offense meant - but it's just a demonstrable matter of fact. Delusion is the most fitting word, when a 33 year old who can only do one of two things, is defined as a superior peak to a player who could do everything he currently can, but just more consistently throughout the season, and with the added dribbling runs that he can no longer offer.

    Throughout the whole calendar year of 2011: Messi wasn't that much better than Ronaldo, it was just that Messi played for the far superior team. (Which, of course, was not an accurate claim at all. The truth was that Real Madrid 2010-11 was great enough that it could easily beat Barcelona 2010-11 in any given game. The Copa del Rey Final, for example. Real Madrid 2010-11 was simply a lot closer to Barcelona 2010-11, than Barcelona 2016-17 was to Real Madrid 2016-17.) Throughout the second half of 2015: Ronaldo was playing for a far "less healthy" club in Real Madrid, which of course, changed quickly after Ronaldo scored two unimpressive goals and a bad free-kick vs. Wolfsburg, and after Barcelona was again eliminated by Atletico Madrid. And finally: it turns out that the first half of the 2017 calendar year (actually, just 5 games of the 2017 calendar year) was actually Ronaldo's greatest ever peak, and it has absolutely not a lot to do with the fact that Ronaldo was playing for the - by far - best club in the world at that particular time, which was the argument that was heavily used against Messi 2011-2013.
     
  13. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    i dont agree with everything that @leadleader said in his post specifically about the teams in champions league not being good, i think it was rather that real madrid was just so superior. but leadleader made a clear point about modern day real madrid and ronaldo and it`s strange to think that some think that CR7 was actually that great in 16-17, when in fact his superior showings in 4 games in champions league is completely distorting his whole season

    @benficafan3, do you really think that CR7 is in his peak, or are we just misunderstanding you? do you actually think that CR7 played his best in 16-17? and by doing ``whatever he wants in games``, are you specifically talking about having very little involvement in the game until he waits for his few moments to capitalize on the few moments he gets in games. take the goals out, and where exactly do you see Cr7 doing ``whatever he wants`` in 16-17?
    I give all credit to CR7 and his incredible intelligence and ability to have an end product when it matters but CR7 is no where near the all round player that he was in his earlier years as far as ``doing what he wants``.
    of course, it could also be interpreted that CR7 doing what he wants in 16-17 involves purely waiting for his chance to score goals. when i interpret ``doing what he wants``, i see that in a player like what isco did for madrid in 16-17 champions league play as he was all over the pitch with many touches on the ball throughout the game
     
  14. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    I'd say it is both as I simply think we see things a bit differently.

    You say "little involvement in the game until he waits for his few moments to capitalize", whereas I see a player that makes his own chances, as was seen just yesterday where he easily lost his defender for the umpteenth time. A player doesn't reach his goalscoring prowess 'waiting' for others.

    Additionally, the 'take the goals out' comment frankly doesn't make sense, and I think is a pervasive way of viewing the sport where people seemingly forget what the purpose of this sport is, which is to score more goals than your opponent. Not dribble past all the opposition's players.

    Why would I care about a player doing anything else if he is scoring goals to win a game? You're essentially deriding a player for not doing more things that would certainly, by automatic default, take away from his ability to score goals. CR7 has come a long way from the days of his unnecessary step-overs and fanciful dribbling. He's refined his game accordingly by taking out the fluff and doing what needs to be done, which is to score goals.
     
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  15. artielange84

    artielange84 Member+

    Aug 7, 2014
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Advanced football fans
     
  16. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Additionally, you don't seem to understand the essence of football. If goals were all that it counts and should be praised and that dribbles "don't win you games", why the hell teams play with 4 defenders and 5 midfielders these days, why don't they just put 10 strikers on the pitch since they are the only one doing an actual work that "wins you games".

    He cares, because if bale doesn't make that great cross for Ronaldo's finish, Ronaldo won't score the goal. Now tell me, if that pass didn't find him, would Ronaldo be a less of a player? No, he did his job, and whether Bale's pass will find him or not is completely independent of Ronaldo and his abilities.
    So we come back to the point. Real is the best team in the world, they are creating chances with an ease, which results in Ronaldo scoring them (the hell Benzema got himself up in 6 big chances vs Valencia. Regardless of the fact he missed them, do you see how easy is to get fed when your team plays good?). Put him in Stoke and he won't see the back of the net for several games because that pass from Bale that find him, would be overhit by Allen or whoever is playing in Stoke that day.

    That fact that his legacy is in the feet of others is his greatest set back in comparison with Messi and other greats and with that being said, does it ring a bell now that, in your opinion, Ronaldo reached his peak at the same time that Real reached theirs? Isn't it so coincidental?
    Btw, stuffs like the fact that Ronaldo scored only 2 goals when Bayern was with 11 palyers on the pitch, that his shot before first goal was deflected in UCL final, tap ins with fortuned circumstances, etc, can't be overlooked.
     
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  17. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Btw, why do you think that new roles for players keep popping up all the time in modern football, like sweeper keeper, ball playing defender, attacking fullbacks, etc. Modern football is filled with redefined roles that are multifuctional. Ask yourself why?
    Football strives for multifuctionality or so to speak, a completness, because that is what makes team great. Total football, have you ever heard of it? Or phrase that defense starts with attackers and attacks start with defenders? It's not coincedence, it is what matters.

    Ronaldo is fortunated to have great team atm that doesn't need him in build up to reach penalty box, but if they did need him, he would be useless. He is not even as good in counter attacks as he used to be due to decrease in speed.
     
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  18. benficafan3

    benficafan3 Member+

    Nov 16, 2005
    Feel good going on your senseless diatribe?
    Looks like it was a great time.

    Concerning the bold, goals are all that count, you moron. The game is won by putting the ball in your opposition's net more times than they put the ball in yours. And you can't use your hands. That's it. The rest comes down to strategy and tactics. The reason a team doesn't put 10 strikers on a field is because that is bad strategy, as no defense will result in the opposing team scoring more goals than you. That means you lose. That's why it doesn't happen. It's actually a pretty simply concept but reread the paragraph as many times as you need to.

    Gotta love these comments. You should try extending your thoughts and see where they lead to instead of latching onto your first thought and running with it. 1970's Brazil is considered the crown jewel of international football, does that discount what Pele did? Brazil didn't even need Pele in 1962. Does the clear fact that Pele played with the best players diminish his abilities?

    The same player you try to downplay in Real Madrid's system had his teammate just say the following:

    Dani Caballos: "With Cristiano on the field, we're always more comfortable and he gives us the confidence that turns in to goals. He's the soul of the team, he's fundamental for us and he's in better shape than ever. He's had a great game and his ambition makes him the best in the world."

    Your post was dumb and you should feel bad.
     
  19. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Was i saying Pele is the goat because of any of the contributions or that Ronaldo is not one of the greatest?
    I am just claiming that the reasons you gave for Ronaldo being in the best form atm are stupid. No offense.

    I find it utterly funny how you quoted the guy who just came to Real and who has one game with Ronaldo on the field hahaha
     
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  20. el-torero

    el-torero Member

    Aug 10, 2011
    malaysia
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    the average football fans always have the same narrow minded mentality, "goal above else" mentality?

    whereas the more analytical football fans always think wider, "goal are part of important factors" mentality
     
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  21. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    How highly goal-scoring should be rated is an interesting topic in and of itself.

    Imagine for a second that a player in his mid 20s was like Napoli's Maradona. Then in his 30s, he somehow transformed into a Gerd Muller.

    At which point in his career would he be more highly rated?
     
  22. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    Although i don't think the comparison is right since Maradona is much more than just a creator, or a dribbler, but put in that way, the answer is pretty obvious. Who is rated higher on the all time list? Maradona or Muller?

    The thing is that creating plays is the most difficult skill in football. Sure finishing is not simple as well, but i would rather have a world class playmaker in the team than a world class poacher, because when you have a playmaker, you know that at the bare minimum, if he has a good day, you will get 3,4 chances to score in the game. If you have a poacher and everybody else in the team is average, he might not even touch the ball and he turns out to be useless. Playmaker will eventually get in the contact with the ball, which, at the times, to a world class playmaker is all he needs.
    In other words, playmakers are less depended on others.
     
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  23. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    Ronaldo is not just a poacher.. come on.. Get serious here.. Did you watch his most recent goal against Barcelona? or the one he scored for Portugal. Just because his most recent goal was a tap in from a Bale's cross.. :rolleyes:
     
  24. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Agreed, but he is less complete than he was in the past. Hence I must say that he is past his prime. Lets face it, his dribbling in combination with his speed used to be spectacular.

    His prime was when he was 23-28 same as with other forwards, give or take a year. Just because you have wash-board abs doesn't mean you age like wine.

    Ironically the OP killed his own argument in the first post of the thread when he pointed-out the strength of the Madrid midfield, which is exactly what is making Ronaldo's decline less obvious to observe.
     
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  25. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    Of course he is way past his prime. He is 32.
     

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