But college sports, for better and for worse, are a huge part of our culture, and it was to Klinsmann's detriment if he never understood that. Becoming a professional soccer player is a longshot at best, and as a parent I completely understand prioritizing college, at the very least in order to have a backup plan. And my experience so far is that, at least for U14 and under, college isn't really on the radar yet, and the emphasis is more on getting noticed by US Soccer scouts. We've had scouts at at least a couple games, not including the showcase at which there were a ton of scouts, and we've had two of our kids get invites to camps who had never been called up before our club was in the DA (in addition to our goalkeeper, who's a total stud and was already on their radar). Oh, and an aside, but one thing I really like about the DA league is that they don't allow unlimited subbing, so it much more closely simulates what they would experience as a professional, as opposed to in college ball. It forces kids to play more intelligently, conserving their energy whenever possible and making kick-and-run tactics less effective. Could be wrong but I think the majority of DA clubs are pay to play. Even the San Jose Earthquakes academy is pay to play below the U14 level.
To your first point, I understand where you're coming from, it's an easy cristicism to make. But I want to take a moment here to say I agree almost entirely with your basic premise regarding development and the turnover that will take place after the early, pre pubescent rounds of player identification. I am calling out the idea that DA is somehow intentionally biased and intentionally designed to be an exclusive club based on factors other than quality. I expect there to be an end to the road at some point. The odds are what you've stated. We don't go into this fearing disappointment, we know there will be disappointment. Ive been astonished at every turn since his first selection to MLS showcase team and he plays every match as if it might be the last but what I'm getting at is, there is always soccer to fall back on. That's the point. There is nothing wrong with loving the game at club level, high school level or even intramural level. The DA is designed to be at the top of the pyramid, that's it. I don't think it is collecting the best players because my son is there, I think that because it is what it is indeed intended to be. If he gets displaced as he gets older, so be it, that is the point of the process. Because that is likely to happen, however, your premise that they don't bring in kids from outside the system becomes completely undermined. Where do you think these new, older kids come from? Outside the system where they've been identified by someone I'd guess. My son is entitled to nothing, we'll enjoy the ride while it lasts and because I also care about US soccer I accept that wholeheartedly. As to your second question re: confidence if he showed up in Chicago: yes I am 100 % confident he would make a roster because that is an uncannily precise description of what we did and what happened and we had the same exact set of long shot expectations your question implies. However, he has accomplished nothing, he has merely obtained an opportunity and there is much more work to be done and now, living away from home, a couple states away. Coming home won't be the end of the world. It will be coming home.
I just have been saying that I don't think these kids are going to be coming at all, because they won't be on anyone's radars and they will be in a system completely separate from the academy. I don't believe it is complementary. It could be, if there was a way for high school players to transition to academy and for academy players to transition out of academy and into high school, but that isn't done. The two systems are at odds with each other. High school coaches and non academy club coaches don't have real relationships with the academy and also often resent the academy. They blame the academy for initiating rules that only serve them while hurting non academy players. For example, the calendar year change has set a lot of players back and split up teams, half of whom are playing high school and half of whom are still in eighth grade.
The problem is the stated intention and purpose of the DA on paper, don’t really match what is happening on the ground in practical terms… Yes, the design and purpose of the DA is to develop professional, world class talent and feed the USMNT…a noble and worthy goal…well, at least an understandable self-serving one... Unfortunately, in practice, that goal falls woefully short…it’s just not really happening… What is happening is the DA system cranks out a boatload of college players every year…the result is that many people, not incorrectly, view the DA the best and most recognized path to a college scholarship… But that’s the thing, we really don’t need an academy system JUST to develop and send kids off to college…we already have an open, established system to do that, it’s called high school… Because while world class talent is indeed rare, college level talent is far more commonplace…the very best is very subjective at that level… Yet, US Soccer has created an artificial, unnecessary, limited, and closed path to college that doesn’t exist in other sports…hence, much of the frustration over the DA system… We keep talking about those kids in Chicago as example…I don’t know any of them and I mean no disrespect to them at all, but will go out on a limb and suggest none of them are potential world class talent…if you put them all in one big group, I very much doubt anyone could separate out the DA vs non-DA kids with any degree of accuracy (take as much time as you need)…yet, those kids that are actually still in the DA program will have astronomically better odds of landing a college slot…that’s just the reality and everyone understands it…even if they don’t like to admit it…
So well articulated. Wonderful. I would add one thing and that is that world class talent is rare everywhere in the world--not just Chicago. But we don't know, in Chicago, or anywhere, who could eventually surface as the next great player for the U.S. Ibra was considered an average player when he was growing up. Now he's a soccer god. But he had access to high level training and wasn't locked out before he could blossom. Harry Kane blossomed late too. How about Jamie Vardy? How would he have done in the U.S. system? What would have happened to Christian Pulisic if he had stayed in the academy system? Would he be heading off to college instead of playing for one of the best teams in the world with some of the best players? And Freddy Adu was definitely seen as the American Pele--which is better than world-class. Usually people point to the Christiano Ronaldo, Pele, or Messi and say that they showed this potential early so every world class player will too. But it doesn't always happen that way. It's so hard to judge world class potential. But we can be fairly sure that the vast vast majority of players won't have it. So, if we are really trying to find that talent, we probably shouldn't bet all our chips on a small group of 12, 13, and 14 year olds.
Yeah, I just don't think the systems are as entirely separate as you make them out to be. For most DA clubs they have their first team playing in the DA league, but then they'll have at least one team playing in other lower leagues, so the clubs aren't entirely divorced from everything else going on, especially when you consider coaches often handle multiple teams. For example, the first division of the NPL in our region has three second teams from DA clubs competing in it. And concerning high school, like I said before most DA clubs are done after the U14 level, so their players can compete in high school after that while still continuing to play for their clubs (my kid is missing out on his freshman year but will play high school next year, and some of the younger kids on his team are still 8th graders so can do high school all four years). The older DA leagues are another level entirely, with intensive travel over large areas (for example the Bay Area teams often have to make weekend trips to the Pacific Northwest and vice versa), so they much more closely approximate a professional environment and high school would be a big step down.
mwulf67, I 100% agree with everything you said. You’ve expressed very well the disconnect between the design and purpose of the DA and what actually happens.
And: "What would have happened to Christian Pulisic if he had stayed in the academy system? " I'm sorry guys but your argument has really gone off the rails. The majority of the u14, u16, u18 and u20 national team squads are derived from the development academy. Look it up. How large do you think rosters for these teams are? Christian is in fact an example of a DA product developing into a world class talent. High school soccer players do not and will not have the ability to compete the highest levels. It's become clear that you haven't been immersed in this process deeply enough, long enough or first hand enough to understand that. You are making the development academy out to be a straw man. The real culprit stalling America's development as a soccer power is the MLS. They are insisting on giving washed up European names contracts while DA kids run out of time and choose college to continue playing. Your criticism is misguided.
To be fair, MLS' goal is surviving and making money, not US Soccer player development. As long as big names get people in the seats, they're going to give them contracts, though that seems to be changing. And MLS academies are some of the best in the country, and routinely dominate DA leagues (not all of them though, or course, considering we're in a Chicago thread....).
For me the DA has indeed been a vast step forward in the landscape (and I expect the same to be true on the girls' side in the future as well). However, to keep up with the rest of the world the DA (like MLS) will eventually have to open up, with innovative clubs being allowed in and stagnating clubs politely asked to "regroup" in a DA2 league or something. Building a strong national team is not just about finding the top kids, but also finding the top innovating coaches/clubs to develop them! For Xmas I really want a genuine, shiny, fluid soccer pyramid like everyone else has!! (in time... in time...)
True, but far too few of these MLS teams are subsequently giving their academy products an opportunity in the first team. Until that happens you going to continue seeing an exodus from the DA to colleges and the USMNT is going to continue looking to dual nationals to staff the squad. I understand the MLS thinking re: famous people but I strongly believe interest in the league would explode if the academy kids started getting meaningful opportunities -- everyone would suddenly have full blown home town heroes -- like the European clubs. I agree with another point being made regarding coaching. But I would argue that the DA is where the innovative coaches are going. The kids are learning a very complicated, possession/pressing system. Then I watch the Toronto/Montreal mash up and see nothing but varsity style garbage. So again, the MLS is where the innovative coaches need to end up because the existing coaches don't seem to know how to use the tools provided by the DA. This, in anutshell, is what Klinsmann truly couldn't overcome. The DA kids literally have no where to play once they age out.
I had heard that the current DA would be a DA2 and that it would continue to expand. DA1 would be added as the highest level and only be associated with MLS teams. Sort of one step forward and two steps back in the context of this conversation. Anyhow - I was told that by someone who may or may not know what the hell they were talking about so I cannot confirm this as fact. Thought it was interesting none the less.
I struggle to see how the USSDA can take much credit for Pulisic’s development, but that’s neither here nor there… And neither do the vast majority of DA players… I could insult you right back and imply all kinds of unfaltering reasons why you have the stance you do… Can we please get pass the idea that simple ignorance is driving our differing opinions? I am not blaming the DA system for anything…I don’t think there really is a culprit, per say…other than the simple fact is soccer is just not popular enough to support the type of high level development US Soccer is trying to artificially (as opposed to more organically) achieve… Basically, I think US Soccer has put the cart before the horse; they are trying create world class talent without the cultural and economic base to really support it… in other counties, soccer isn’t popular because they develop talent; they develop talent because soccer is so popular… Whereas, I believe the DA system is a horribly flawed and inadequate system, I also freely acknowledge it’s probably the best we can hope for at the moment…
I appreciate your post, and your perspective. I thought there was a brief period when the DA could have intervened considering the Magic players had signed contracts committing to the DA for the fall season and were already rostered on the DA. I’ve been under the impression that the DA had the authority to enforce certain guidelines and standards. But what I’m gathering from others is that the DA’s main leverage is their ability to grant or take away DA status. So, in the case of FCU, unless the DA was willing to take away DA status for the entire club, there was nothing they could do about what happened to the ’02 players.
I apologize for the insult. I understand it comes off that way but I'm simply trying to emphatically point out that the style and pace of play simply doesn't translate from high school to a national team level and repeated assertions that it can are simply, completely unfounded. You are 100 percent correct that not all DA kids can play at that level, certainly not as well as others -- but they are all the stars of whatever local team they came from and would generally mow through the varsity teams if they chose to. Pulisic started out with PA classics. You can't head to Europe until 16. And whoever asked the question upthread, I think is right. If he stayed here, for the reasons we've discussed, he probably would have just ended up in a college program. But I guess we'll never know now.
Makes sense to me based on what FCU said shortly after the merger with Magic. They talked about a new era of cooperation between FCU and Fire where the two academies would work together to identify talent. FCU would focus on college bound players, and Fire would focus on developing professional players. They seemed to have a long term vision for how they see the two clubs. If they truly focused on the best of the best at the DA1 level and greatly expanded the DA2 level, then maybe it would be an improvement over what’s happening now. Players might move more easily between the two levels as they evolve and mature. And, more players could be incorporated at the second level, which addresses the issue of some players being shut out from the system before it’s clear who has the most potential.
My question was what would have happened to Pulisic if he had stayed in the academy system. Would he be at the level he is now or would he be looking at colleges? If you are familiar with every high school player and every development academy player in the country I guess you could have a valid opinion on that. I think people need to remember that before the academy, we actually turned out pro players, like Brian McBride, for instance, who captained an EPL team. He didn't have the elite coaching and training that academy players have today and he reached heights beyond anything 99% of them can ever dream of. The academies seduce parents with the allure of securing "elite" status for their children. They talk about college scholarships and say that top universities won't even look at players who aren't on academy teams. They say all high school players can't compete with their players when there is little if any difference, and people believe them. The national teams are connected to the academy. They choose all the players. Of course all of them are academy players. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. They actually put out news releases that essentially say, "look, we picked our own players. This proves that our players are the best." I've seen high school players who are not as good as some academy players, but I've also seen high school players who are much much better. As I've said before, some very good high school players don't want to break onto academies because they aren't encouraged in any way to do so. Their club coaches dislike the academy system and want to keep their top players away from it. Their high school coaches (and there are some very good ones, believe it or not) hear people like you say again and again that high school players suck and aren't good enough to play with the "elite" academy players. Do you think they would ever tell one of their players to try to join a place like that? And academy coaches, who are selling how "elite" their system is, certainly would look a little silly if a high school player showed up and looked better than the players they've been "developing" for years.
I don't know, that seems like a step forward generally to me, since it means more teams are able to be included. Though I doubt the top division would be limited to MLS teams, as they vary widely in quality and in many cases aren't the top team in their area. I know locally in our age group Sacramento Republic is better than the Earthquakes, and DeAnza Force probably is as well. But beyond that, if you look at results you'll see that in many regions there are wide gaps in quality between DA teams at the top and bottom ends, and this would alleviate that somewhat. The way that situation would ideally work is like the NPL, where teams would be promoted or relegated each year depending on their performance.
I'm afraid you are right. But that was really unethical of the club to do what they did. I hope it does not totally discourage your son. If he is still interested to join DA in the future, I'd suggest looking for a club/team with as little potential parental influence as possible (I say "potential" since not all the parents on the board or coaches who have their kids in the team would actually influence. But I try to avoid such situations for my son as much as I can.). Although I understand it is not easy to do that in the pay to play model and with limited number of DA clubs in the area...
He was on PA Classics from 2008-2015, and they're a DA club, so I don't know if you can say USSDA can take credit (and I don't know how long they've been in the DA), but at the very least they've recognized it as a quality club that emphasizes player development.
I'm convincing myself that the incentivization of coaches is another key improvement that needs to be made in this country, from volunteer rec coaches all the way to the top (oh, and I've been helping to coach my 1rst graders cohort so no conflict of interest in that opinion!). Coaches should be placed in a framework where they are in constant competition to contribute to the production of professional quality players, and where they should be compensated a lot if they are able to do produce them. Of course that requires someone to actually buy these players (solidarity $) which MLS isn't doing right now, but Europe seems to be more willing to do this with Americans these days if US Soccer allowed it. And we'd get the added benefit of eventually weening ourselves off pay to play.... All things discussed in these forums by many but perhaps worth repeating...
Come on now, you know I didn't say high school players suck. I said they can't play at the same tempo with the same style. With practice they may develop the technical skills required to do so but when you're seeing a high school kid with amazing technical skills you aren't seeing him at the same pace and tempo as you would if he was in a DA match. If you look upthread you'll see I said there is no shame in playing school ball. My older son did it, my younger may yet.
Truth, our local high school teams are generally made up primarily of kids who play lower level club soccer, a few kids who play higher level club and are the star players, with the numbers made up by above average rec players. They recently had tryouts at my son's school and the only freshmen who made varsity were one kid formerly on my son's academy team (more of a sub than a starter, part of the reason he quit) and another kid who plays on a top NPL team and has been in the id2 and pdp programs. Most of the kids on my son's team plan to play starting next year, but it's more for fun and the opportunity to be a badass than for the high level of play or opportunities available.
Sorry. Did not mean to misquote you. I mean more that this is the impression that people get from the academy--that high school players are not good enough for them. Style, is one thing--I think there is definitely a push for a possession style game with short passes--but I think something like tempo is debatable. As I've been saying, the academies don't want to compete against non-academy clubs, so we will never know. But I can say this: if a pre-academy team plays a game in April against a non-academy affiliated club and loses, and both teams keep the same rosters in the fall, when the pre-academy team is named an "academy team," is the "academy team" any better? Just saying that some of this is perception and hype. On the other hand I do agree with Luftmensch's description of some high school teams. Many are made up of a varied group of players--some at a lower level, some in between, and some higher. Academies have a stronger concentration of competent, good players, by comparison. Very good non-academy club teams will get the top players from those high school teams, who are going to have similar talent to academy players. And, of course, not all academy players are top level. Many are there because they got into the system at eight years old, knew a coach who is loyal to them, etc. I know, people will say they all earned their way in solely because of talent. Some did, some didn't. Regardless, I think the academy is able to have concentrations of very capable players and control their training and games in an organized way. High school is a toss up. The top high school programs in the country have their stuff together and will have very good players. The average high school, no. Most academy programs will have some of (but not all) of the top talent in their areas. But there are a few that won't be as competitive. I think it would be good for academy teams to play top club teams at least once a year. This would be an opportunity for them to scout other players and see how they match up to other styles of play. but I'm sure academy parents would be against that. It will be interesting to see if this will be allowed at the Dallas Cup and the Surf Cup this year.