There's nothing Spanish about Di Stefano. He was an Italian-Argentine. Matias said a quarter of the population of Argentina was described when something similar was mentioned, but it's actually more than a half, at around 60% being of Italian descent. As the son of Italian immigrants it's hard to discount the contribution it had on his background (both nature and nurture, genes and culture at home, and even surroundings). KK, as a long-time fan of Brazilian and South American soccer you can't discount the influence of at least the Italians on our football (Brazilian, South American). I can't even name all the Argentines, but Feola who got it all started for Brazil, winning us the 1st WC, coaching the 1958 team and giving the Pelé his start was the child of Italian immigrants, as were Altafini and Rivelino. I'm sure there were more I can't think of right now, like Felix (part), etc. Of course, let us not forget the icon of your team and probably one of your own - Zico, being Portuguese-Brazilian. In more recent times there is Scolari (2nd generation but 100% of Italian descent), Taffarel or even the current coach, Dunga (Italian/German).
Sure, That European influence certainly exists in terms of genes (Portuguese, Italian, German, Spanish, Japanese, even Russian). Also in terms of cultural influence (England & France in the XIXth century). I myself am of Ukrainian descent mixed with Portuguese, black & indian like all Brazilians & learned French in school - French at my time was even a mandatory discipline). But's not the only one. The European genes & culture are there but very mixed up with black & indian ones. Zico is also 'Portuguese' because his father was born in Portugal what authomatically gives you - if you require it - the Portuguese nationality and vice-versa (which is the result of an an old Brz x Port diplomatic agreement). But his 'vivência' (his culture) - which is what really counts - is all from the Rio de Janeiro inner-city suburb of Quintino. Culturally (& especially football wise) he belonged way more to his neighborhood black & mulatto childhood mates than to his parents environment (who on their turn already felt more Brz than Portuguese). If it were the other way around he'd not choose to play for Flamengo, the favorite team of the blacks in Brazil but in Vasco da Gama, the great club of the Portuguese colony in the country (team of his father BTW). So, if the sons of European immigrants had some influence from their parents' original countries (which is understandable) it stopped at their house's door. Beyond those limits, man, it was, is & it will always be 'the Brazil', which is all that & much more. PS: You're wrong too when say Di Stéfano was Italian-Argentine. He was Argentinian with Italian descent (which is totally different). Like Zico was Brazilian of Portuguese descent. Which applies to Rivelino, Dino Sani, Altafini, Julinho 'Botteglio', Taffarel, Scolari, Dunga, Friendereich in relation to any other nationality. But football wise one can consider him more Spanish than Italian, since he was very important for the football of Spain. In fact he was not footballistically more 'Spanish' in those years. It was Spanish football that with his presence became more 'Argentinian'. lol Even Pelé is not 'pure black' (nobody in Brazil is) but countabilizes drops of indian & white blood in his hemogram. All Southamericans (Di Stéfano included) are 'from their original countries' with Portuguese, Spanish, African, Indian or other European countries racial influences - & that's the way you should envisage their backgrounds.
Zico was Portuguese because his father was Portuguese, and his maternal grandfather also Portuguese (given RJ, and his mother's looks, and her birth year of 1919, his maternal grandmother is likely of recent Portuguese as well) I agree with the first part, but I don't know about your assumption that they felt more Brazilian, considering his father still rooted for Sporting living in Brazil. This is speculation passing as fact. We don't know that he chose Flamengo because it is "the favorite team of the blacks", but rather because he started and had been accepted at the club at 14 (an age definitely too young to care about those things). So his genes, upbringing and cuture had no effect on him as a person when he walked out of his house's door? How so? Maybe you misunderstood what it implies, because an Italian-Argentine is a person of Italian descent living or having been born in Argentina. Thus, Italian-Argentine. Not different. In the case of Feola, Altafini, and Rivelino, it's a little different, as those three were sons of Italian immigrants. Scolari the son of sons of immigrants (and probably a similar situation with Dunga and Taffarel). This does not mean that they are who they are because of it, and not because of the environment in which they developed their football, but you have to remember that the talent they had is tied to their person. He magically became Spanish by playing in Spain? Does this happen to all our players who play in Europe? There was a study done about the varying degrees of African DNA in Brazilian popstars and football players, but that's entirely off-topic. In it Milton Nascimento was 99.5%. Which I think most already knew by looking at him. In the case of many, but my examples were either children of immigrants, second generation, or Italian/German (Taffarel, Dunga). So while what you said is true for most of the population, not for the ones I brought up specifically. Time to play now.
Being his parents Portuguese or 'recent Portuguese', the fact is that Zico IS Brazilian (& 'Portuguese' merely in function of a diplomatic formality). In my case, my mother was pure Ukrainian (although born in Brazil in 1922) & her brother (my elder uncle) came to Brazil by ship in the belly of my Kiev grandma. So I'm very much 'Ukrainian' by your standards, but I never felt Ukrainian, never acted Ukrainian, never played Ukrainian-style football nor went to bed singing 'Otchitchornia' or the 'Volga Boatmen'. Sporting was his team in Portugal & it's understandable that he still kept sympathies for them. But after 40 years in a country - the person 'becomes' of that country. I didn't say that he chose Flamengo 'because it was the team of the blacks''. What I said is that since he lived in a majoritarilly black flamenguista comunity (the inner-city suburb of Quintino) he even unconsciously was bound to suffer the influence of the community. And in Rio Flamengo is not only THE team of the poor communities but also of the middle & rich classes. In Rio even the fetuses in the belly of their mothers wave the red-and-black flag & dream of playing in Flamengo: 90% of Rio's population is Flamengo. Genes only affect a person physically &/or neurologically. As far as culture & upbringing specially in a non-separatist & cosmopolitan society like the carioca (& Brazilian) one - where there are no racial ghettos in the country like in th US for instance - what commands is the 'upbringing' that you inherit from the society around you. The way you play football (and even the way you walk) is the one you unconsciously absorb in the beaches & streets. The 'upbringing' that you receive at home is almost decorative. Nope. By saying 'Italian-Argentine' you're giving preeminence to the 'Italian' term of the expression - when in Di Stéfano's case the most important is the 'Argentine'. You should say: 'Di Stéfano (in 1st place) is a person who was born in Argentine and (in 2nd place) a person that has Italian descent'. The 'Italian' comes in second in importance in the expression & putting it at the beginning exaggerates its relevance. Talent can be tied to the person but not to the nationality of the person. Talent independs of nationality: you find geniuses in all parts of the world. Style of play doesn't get affected either by the 'proximity' of a player genetic heritage towards his ancestors (be it 1st, 2nd or 3rd degree). The style of a player is determined by the environment he is raised in. Didn't say that. I said that if we were to say whose 'nationality' the football player (and not the 'physical' person) Di Stéfano is & we only had for options 'Spanish' or 'Italian' we'd for sure choose the 1st due to the long years he played in Spain (and 'zero' years he's been in Italy). First you gotta show us the link to that masterpiece of 'world megastars' Anthropology. And not mention it out of thin air just ir order to try to ''win' an argument. Second we gotta see if that's a serious study. You should also know that the genes for skin colors don't appear in DNA charts. Third: even if that's a serious study - what doesn't look to be the case - it can still be debatable (or even wrong), agree?... You want to impress who with that '99,5%'? ... Fourth: I seriously doubt that Milton Nascimento (a defender of equal rights for all in the planet) would expose his arm for a such a racist 'needle'.
Zico is Portuguese because his family is Portuguese. His nationality is Brazilian, like mine and yours, but his descent is Portuguese. What you call a product of diplomacy would not have happened for him barring the above, since he's never lived in Portugal. You implied that Zico would not have chosen Flamengo if he felt Portuguese, which is a very speculative statement at best! At 14 I doubt he knew about any of the things you mentioned in your previous posts, or cared. There are no racial ghettos in the U.S to the same extent as there aren't in Brazil; there are ethnic neighborhoods and ghettos, due to economic reasons, not federal law as the word "racial ghetto" would imply. What you consider a racial ghetto would directly correspond to the favelas. This makes it evident that you did not understand. You would think so in the schematic of the English language where adjectives come first (instead of the opposite for romance languages) which I'm sure you had to drill into your head learning the language, but not in this case. Argentine-Italian would imply an Argentine person either living in Italy, or born there. Italian-x simply means a person of Italian descent living in 'x' place. I'm neither: trying to 'win' an argument, impress anyone, or mentioning a study out of thin air. It is a bit telling though that you project those ideas onto me, as it is the best way to find out about one's behavior. The purpose of discussion, a point in which we obviously disagree, is to be construction, to contribute, not to 'win' and barrage the poster with long posts which no one will read. To answer your question if the study is serious, or "who I want to 'impress with that '99.5%'?" I got it wrong. It was a while ago when I read it, he's actually 99.3%. The study was done by BBC, and consensual, which makes your doubt about it's seriousness, consensus, and your arrogance baseless. Here it is: http://www.bbc.co.uk/portuguese/reporterbbc/story/2007/06/070531_dna_milton_cg.shtml And here is the main page on the topic if you're interested in educating yourself: http://www.bbc.co.uk/portuguese/noticias/cluster/2007/05/070427_raizesafrobrasileiras.shtml PS: I did not want to post it here because it is completely off-topic, in a thread about whether Di Stefano is Argentine or Spanish.
.Again: Zico is NOT Portuguese & is very far from being one. Ergo, neither you, nor me, nor he are Portuguese. We're ALL Brazilians. Descent doesn't determine the nationality of a person. Being 'Portuguese' in that case or being 'Brazilian' for a Portuguese is simply a fruit of the cordiality between the 2 sister-nations. Not something for real. I never said he 'chose' anything: rather he 'was chosen' by Flamengo. Happens to 90% of the kids in Rio & 75% in Brazil. 14 years-ols?... I was 6 and of course still had no team when I 'chose' to be Flamengo: there came to me a little fat guy a little older than me wearing a Fluminense jersey who asked: "Fluminense beat Flamengo today 3 x 0, what's your team? If you're not Fluminense I'm going to punch you in the nose!". I looked around, just saw kids with red-and-black jerseys, filled myself with 'courage' & yelled back: "So punch me! I'm Flamengo!". The surprised guy looked around, just saw re-and-black jerseys too, smiled 'yellow' & went away. That's how I 'chose' to be Flamengo ... You're confusing everything. The favelas in Brazil have people of ALL colors. There are no Chinatowns or Harlems like in the US. Zico didn't live in a favela though: just in a poor neighborhood. Where the majority is of blacks. Who didn't understand was you. You said: Your 'knowlege' of English is ludicrous. Don't try to get off the situation on such a ridiculous tangent. You said: 'Italian-Argentine'. With hyphen. What characterizes both terms as nouns. Itwould have been an adjective if the hyphen didn't exist. So, there is no how to deny that you were giving preeminence to the 'Italian'. You could have said that he was an 'Italo-Argentinian' (it would have been more appropriate - although it still wouldn't reflect Di Stéfano's reality). Besides 'Italian Argentines' dont exist. Either you're Italian or Argentine. You read them - that's what matters to me. Great, now you finally revealed the source. The only thing however is that you falsified its conclusions. You cherrypicked the guy with the the biggest rate (an exceptional case among most of the participants) & used him as a standard of 'Africanity' for people for whom 'it's sufficient to look at that we already know where he comes from'... When if you look at many of the other participants - for instance, Neguinho da Beija-Flor, who looks as black as Milton - you find out that he surprisingly has...64% of European blood! Thanks for proving my point.
.Again: Zico is NOT Portuguese & is very far from being one. Ergo, neither you, nor me, nor he are Portuguese. We're ALL Brazilians. Descent doesn't determine a person's nationality. Being 'Portuguese' in that case or being 'Brazilian' for a Portuguese is simply a fruit of the cordiality between the 2 sister-nations. Not something for real. I never said he 'chose' anything: rather he 'was chosen' by Flamengo. Happens to 90% of the kids in Rio & 75% in Brazil. 14 years-old?... I was 6 and of course still had no team when I 'chose' to be Flamengo: there came to me a little fat guy a little older than me wearing a Fluminense jersey who asked: "Fluminense beat Flamengo today 3 x 0, what's your team? If you're not Fluminense I'm going to punch you in the nose!". I looked around, just saw kids with red-and-black jerseys, filled myself with 'courage' & yelled back: "So punch me! I'm Flamengo!". The surprised guy looked around, just saw red-and-black jerseys too, smiled 'yellow' & went away. That's how I 'chose' to be Flamengo ... You're confusing everything. The favelas in Brazil have people of ALL colors. There are no Chinatowns or Harlems like in the US. Zico didn't live in a favela though: just in a poor neighborhood. Where the majority is of blacks. Who didn't understand was you. You said: Your 'knowlege' of English is ludicrous. Don't try to get off the situation on such a ridiculous tangent. You said: 'Italian-Argentine'. With hyphen. What reinforces the two terms as nouns. 'Italian' would have been an adjective if the hyphen didn't exist. So, there is no how to deny that you were giving preeminence to the 'Italian'. You could have said that he was an 'Italo-Argentinian' (it would have been more appropriate - although it still wouldn't reflect Di Stéfano's reality). Besides 'Italian Argentines' dont exist. Either you're Italian or Argentine. You read them - that's what matters to me. Great, now you finally revealed the source. The only thing however is that now you revealed that you falsified its conclusions. You cherrypicked the guy with the the biggest rate (an exceptional case among most of the participants) & used him as a standard of 'Africanity' for people for whom 'it's sufficient to look at that we already know where he comes from'... When if you look at many of the other participants - for instance, Neguinho da Beija-Flor, who looks as black as Milton - you find out that he surprisingly has...67% of European blood! Thanks for proving my point.
Zico is a Brazilian of Portuguese descent. Descent did not determine his birth place, but it does determine his nationality. You posted that Zico was only Portuguese because of "a mere function of diplomatic formality", which is not the whole story. He is of Portuguese descent, born in Brazil, but a citizen of Portugal as well. He became a Portuguese citizen because of the Portuguese descent of his family, Jus Sanguinis, and through no other way since he's never lived there for a period of 5 years, which is one of the other requirements for citizenship along with Jus Solis. Here's the quote: Minus white, therefore brown and black (though of varying degrees because of a different history than the U.S), just like your example of Harlem in the U.S, with the difference that Harlem has whites. There are growing concentrated enclaves of Chinese in Liberdade SP, alongside the more established Japanese, which do have the equivalent of a Chinatown. There will be an official Chinatown eventually as there are ethnic enclaves all over the south of the country. Italo-Argentine = Italian-Argentine. It is so simple, and I'm a little astounded at how you don't make the easy connection, or use a dictionary. Replace Italian-Argentine for Italo-Argentine if it makes you feel better, or use a dictionary. I have no idea where you got your outlandish idea that I'm "giving preeminence to the 'Italian'." Or the one that being a person of Italian descent born in Argentina does not relfect Di Stefano's reality. I'm not interested, nonetheless. And maybe you should at least spell 'knowledge' correctly before you call mine of the English language 'ludicrous'. Maybe not in your world, but they do in the real world. I didn't comment on the study's conclusion at all, so I didn't falsify anything. I only cited Milton to disprove your point that no one is 'pure black' in Brazil. 99.3% is as close as it comes to that genetically. You arrogantly said that you 'seriously doubted' that he would even participate in a study, and accused me of citing such study 'out of thin air', but simply failed to address how the study disproved your earlier statement or assumptions about whether it was serious or not (being a BBC study). You are a prime example of confirmation bias, clearly discounting contradictions to your statements while at the same time somehow 'proving your point' (whatever it may be). By the way, you don't need to make a new line for every sentence.
Man, what a huge post! lol... Whichever be the 'law' or 'formality' involved in the process Zico is not known as 'being Portuguese' even by the most fanatic of his fans. And be sure that he (although naturally admires his Portuguese heritage - which we ALL have – and not because of that we are Portuguese) he himself doesn't compart the double feeling of being Brazilian '&' Portuguese. For him he is only Brazilian and more than anything carioca & Flamengo. The 'Galinho' was never seen singing the Portuguese anthem or dancing the vira. lol Sure there are more blacks in the favelas because the blacks are the poorest but the race mixing is evident. In the Harlem there might be whites but there has traditionally been no active mixing. I mentioned Brazil but São Paulo by its magnitude as a city & cosmopolitan dimension is an exception in Brazil. Besides we are talking Zico, & Zico, more than Brazilian or southerner, is a Rio de Janeiro’s sub-product. You do give that impression & the way you write (spelling etc) does convey that impression. To say for instance: Sorry, but there has never been Italian influence in our football. There might be many players with Italian, Portuguese, Angolan, Chinese, German genes in their blood but in their way of playing football there is no trait of those nationalities. That’s totally cultural. I challenge you to tell me what’s ’Portuguese’, ‘Italian’, ‘German’ or ‘Chinese’ in the way Dino Sani, Altafini, Bellini, Germano, Julinho, Falcão, Zico, Friendereich & Chinesinho played. I confess I have a problem with 'knowledge' & 'privilege': it's not your exclusive privilege to be unknowledgeable. More than that: you omitted it. I'd really like to see how that was done though. The BBC is a broadcasting company, not a scientific one. And it sounds somewhat amateur to me you yourself brushing your teeth & delivering the cells of your mouth to analysis. That 'mineiro' laboratory, hmmm... Looks more like the precarious pregnancy tests one buys in pharmacies. I’m a layman in the matter but I’d see serious scientist discarding such procedures with a grin of sarcasm. Anyway – & you avoided that development – the test evidences more than ever that 'purity of races' is a vanishing myth - and Milton Nascimento is no more than a living proof of that. If still exists is an insignificant ‘reality’. What really matters is that ‘talent’ has nothing to do with genes: talent is a matter of ‘raw intelligence’ (something which - as it was said before - exists in ANY ‘race’) inextricably allied to & developed by culture. That depends on the ‘rate of naïveté’ of those artists, a figure that no laboratory can measure. Sorry, but – although your grasp of English is a little better than mine (you probably live in US) - ‘discounting a contradictions’ doesn’t sound quite sound to me (correct me if I’m wrong). I’m sure anybody will find it a clearer way for organizing a text than writing in the ‘stream of consciousness’ style of many people around here (not referring to you, please).