Do you agree that Mexico and the United States are the best non UEFA or CONMEBOL teams?

Mexico and the USA basically get a free ticket through to every World Cup, being the Giants of their federation with very few teams capable of knocking them out of the top 4 in CONCACAF. So I think WC appearances and therefore WC wins, is biased towards them. It is much easier for Mexico and USA to qualify then any other nation.

That said I do agree that Mexico certainly belong in the catergory of best teams outside of UEFA/CONMEBOL.

If we just look at the last 3 WC's Ghana's record is superior to the USA. Mexico and Ghana have both earned 15 points in the past 3 WC's, the USA have only earned 10. Cote D'Ivoire have also earned 10 points despite not qualifying for the knockout stage.

 

I agree with 2014. But in 2006 & 2010, Cote d'Ivoire did have pretty tough groups (knocked out by Argentina & Netherlands, then Brazil & Portugal). With easier groups they would probably have made one knock-out stage.
Also from 2006 to 2014 Cote d'Ivoire have 3 WC wins compared to USA's 2.

So despite progressing to the knock-out stages I don't think USA's recent performance is good enough to place them above every other non UEFA & CONMEBOL team.

If you just look at WC wins from 2006-2014, Ghana have 4, Mexico 4, Cote d'Ivoire 3, USA 2, South Korea 2, Japan 2, Australia 2 and even Costa Rica 2.

Of this group, USA are also the only nation to not record any wins against a UEFA or CONMEBOL team at a WC 2006-2014.

 

Wins are a measure, but I would also include ties, because they can be very important. Just ask Ivory Coast about not getting that tie against Greece in 2014. So maybe look at total points earned.

Concerning the original question. The answer is Mexico is the best "other" team. In terms of consistent results over time combined with quality play, nobody approaches Mexico. Since 86 Mexico (minus 1990 when they were banned from participating) has always advanced and usually looked good doing so. Using the modern scale, since 86, Mex has finished their group with 7, 4, 5, 7, 4, 4, and 7 points. Only 3 group stage losses in their last 7 WCs. No other "rest of world" even comes close. Most Euros and S. Americans would love such a run.

US is probably second, but I can see some arguments for either Ghana or Nigeria challenging them. Had Ghana arrived in 1998 instead of 2006 they could very well be second. Let's see if they can keep it going. If Nigeria had one more advancement since 1994, they would be right there with the US. Without the US hosting 1994, Nigeria and the US are basically even. Ivory Coast in 2006 certainly played better than I have ever seen the US play. IC were cursed with their group in 06 and the order of the games in 2010, but blew it themselves in 2014. Unlike the US, Nigeria and Ghana (even Costa Rica) have actually had a good performance in Europe. I would throw in IC in 06, probably the best team to not advance in the last 3 WCs.

Interesting factoid about Costa Rica, when they do qualify they have a better record than the US. I ran the numbers on this a while back. They probably have the most impressive collection of scalps, wins against Scotland and Sweden in 1990 in Europe and wins against Uruguay and Italy in 2014.

 

Thats a really deceiving statistic, considering we haven't played a CONMEBOL team at the WC since 1994.

In that span, we have four draws and three losses in seven games to UEFA teams. A 3-0 loss against Czech Republic, a 1-0 loss against Germany(the eventual champions) and a 2-1 loss in extra time against Belgiuml(90 minute tie). The four draws came against Italy(the eventual champion), England, Portugal and Slovenia.

Of those seven results, only two could be considered worse than to be expected, the Czech Republic loss, a type of game every team has at some point and the Slovenia draw where we actually won 3-2 but the ref called back a goal for some strange reason that is still not known. Its not easy to win WC games, especially when you have good goals taken away from you.

So I really don't see what you are saying. Had the referee not called back a good goal, would we be in a different category of team? I don't think so. We are what we are, regardless of whether we've beaten a UEFA or CONMEBOL team at a WC between 2006-2014.

 

What I'm saying is that it isn't Mexico and USA above the rest.
Mexico and Ghana are the modern standouts from non UEFA/CONMEBOL.
The USA's performances in the past 3 WC's are no better or worse than Cote d'Ivoire IMO, and not so much better than South Korea, Japan and Australia as to be considered a stand out team alongside Mexico. Are the USA in the Top 5 nations outside of Europe and South America? certainly. Are they in the Top 3 nations? probably. Are they in the Top 2? not necessarily.

That makes the USA's performance probably appear worse then. If they have not had to play nations from CONMEBOL, that suggests they have had it easier then the other nations I mentioned.

USA and Cote d'Ivoire are equal on points as well both with 10 in the same time frame.

 

If you use the current FIFA Rankings and assume that the countries will finish WCQs in the same order, here's what you get in CONCACAF and AFC:

CONCACAF:
3rd (last guaranteed spot): Costa Rica is 38th
4th (interconfederational playoff): Jamaica is 55th
5th (out): Trinidad and Tobago is 56th

AFC:
4th (last guaranteed spot): Australia is 61st
5th (interconfederational playoff): United Arab Emirates is 70th
6th (out): Uzbekistan is 76th

Therefore I'd argue that Iran, Korea Republic, Japan, and Australia have an easier time qualifying than Mexico and USA. If Qatar keeps their right to host World Cup 2022, I hope AFC doesn't get Qatar and 4.5 more spots because AFC doesn't deserve that much.

 

So does Japan, South Korea, and Australia

 

The USMNT is in 48th place, averaging 0.91 points per game at the all-time FIFA WC table. That's behind Senegal, Cuba, Costa Rica, Ghana, Ivory Coast, South Africa, Mexico, Nigeria, Jamaica, Japan and Algeria.

In its last two international tournaments (World Cup & Gold Cup) the USMNT won a total of four games (Ghana, Honduras, Haiti, Cuba) out of ten, whereby three of five World Cup goals were scored by German-born players. Achieving four points out of four WC games (1.0 ppg) doesn't exactly stand for progress.

Furthermore, the US have not produced one player of international caliber in their entire history. Outside of goalie Tim Howard, who plays for a middle of the pack EPL team, no native US "talent" has ever held a starting position in any of the better European leagues over a considerable period of time.
In contrast, some of the above mentioned nations have brought out plenty of football greats, who accomplished successful careers with big European sides.

Like its predecessors, the current USMNT strongly depends on other nations' infrastructure and talent development and will continue to do so, even with a few scattered academies here and there. A pay-to-play "youth system", uncompetitive college teams and a retirement franchise league won't deliver the desired world-class results.

The USMNT has been historically awful to mediocre and still is. Before that changes significantly, their fans should refrain from desperate attempts to place the team anywhere where it doesn't belong. Aforementioned mediocrity renders the USMNT too insignificant a factor in world football to even bother with dreamt up superiority over their peers.

 

I think it's faulty logic to compare teams' performance by their average number of points per game. Sure, Senegal, Cuba, and Jamaica have earned more points on average than the United States in the World Cup, but's what's missing from that analysis is that each of those nations only ever qualified for one World Cup! A better comparison would be the number of wins each has in its history, and, in this regard, among the nations you mentioned, only Mexico has fared better than the United States.

 

I just love bullshit like this.

Yes, you're correct. Is 3 a magic number?



If you use the last 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20 World Cups, the US' record is "superior."

Game, set, match.

 

This is not about any of the above mentioned countries in particular, although Senegal has produced significantly better players than the US ever had. It's about the fact that the USMNT has achieved next to nothing historically. When your team has gone .400 in its last ten competitive matches, with the wins coming against Ghana, Honduras, Haiti and Cuba, you really don't have to waste your time wondering where your place among the world's greatest football nations might be.

That Klose comparison is as flawed as it could possibly be. He came to Germany as a child and grew up in our system. Everything he became as a footballer is based on this.

The Eusébio argument is just as ill-informed. Mozambique or Portuguese East Africa at the time, was a Portuguese colony when he grew up there.

On the other hand, Jürgen's German-born players went through our youth system and professional leagues. The US did not contribute a thing to their development. Similar circumstances apply to other USMNT players.

At the end of the day US football hasn't done much. No notable players and a total of five FIFA World Cup wins in seven tournaments since 1990 (two overall in the last three editions). USMNT supporters have to stop fooling themselves with their imaginary exceptionalism and show some humility and sanity when it comes to evaluating their own team. No other fanbase of comparable national sides shows that kind of ignorance, hubris and delusions of grandeur. Wait until the USMNT has actually accomplished something outside of a few Gold Cup titles, thanks to 13 consecutive tournaments with home-field advantage in one of the weakest confederations.

 

You know we're just arguing that we're historically better than Ghana, Nigeria, and Japan, right? If you're arguing about something you read on another thread, do it there.

PS...thank you OP. This thread is going to just ooze win.

 

We're comparing to non-UEFA and non-CONMEBOL teams so all of these countries have some of this happening. Even Mexico has dos Santos who's father is Brazilian and has trained in Spain from age 11.
Won't even go into how many UEFA players are in African teams.

So if I were rude I could actually pose a separate question. Why are so many German players not really all that German in origin? But I think that's pretty baseless and doesn't need answering.

Instead, I would ask that you embrace the new world of multiple nationalities. It's not going away.

 

It's actually a rather ignorant and inane question, if that's what you've read out of my post. The issue at hand is a US system that failed to produce any significant home-grown talent while their fans keep claiming superiority here and there that simply doesn't exist. Seven World Cups, five won games. Beating a depleted Cuban Gold Cup squad whose other half had just defected and then losing to Jamaica - at home. How in the world do you even start to ponder whether the USMNT is the best team outside of UEFA or CONMEBOL in a situation like that?

Besides, which players "not German in origin" are you talking about? Götze, Schweinsteiger, Schürrle, Boateng, Hummels, Rüdiger, Neuer, Reus, Özil, Müller, Gündogan, Draxler, Kroos, Khedira, Höwedes, Mustafi, Bellarabi, Großkreutz? All born an grown up in Germany and products of our system. Klose and Podolski immigrated during their childhood learned to play in Germany as well.

It looks more like you have a problem with the new world. If your educational institutions taught you that all Germans are blond and blue-eyed Aryans, you might wanna have a talk with your teachers.

 

You are amazing. I could not have marked that paragraph out more clearly as troll bait. You even went as far as to respond only to that. Fabulous.

 

Is that the way you're trying to hide the embarrassment of your own ignorance, claiming that you were just trolling? That's what teenagers do.

 

Ok nice try,
Let's pick those other numbers.
Which non-UEFA, non-CONMEBOL, non-Mexico nations has the best record (points earned) from the past how ever many World Cups
1: Costa Rica (9 points)
2: Ghana & USA equal (10 points)
3: Ghana (15 points)
4: South Korea (20 points)
5: South Korea (21 points)
6: South Korea (23 points)
7: South Korea (23 points)
8: South Korea (24 Points)
9: South Korea (24 points)
10: South Korea (24 points)
11: South Korea (24 points)
12: South Korea (24 points)
13: South Korea (24 points)
14: South Korea (24 points)
15: South Korea (24 points)
16: South Korea (24 points)
17: South Korea & USA (24 points)
18: South Korea & USA (24 points)
19: South Korea & USA (24 points)
20: USA (30 points)

You have to go all the way back to 1930 before the USA have a better record then all the other non UEFA, non CONMEBOL, non MEXICO nations.

 

Mexico have lost more World Cup matches than anyone else. That's how great they are.

 

Should be 2: Ghana, Costa Rica & USA 9 points

 

The most famous German of all time had brown hair and eyes. So nobody here thinks that.