I am saying the issue is while the levels are somewhat defined, at each level there are competing leagues that split the top level players - now even so at the very top. So the best from AB (reg league) up are really not necessarily playing each other. It's like boxing used to be in some ways.. And I am not saying you should have top teams playing each other to figure out who is the best. Rather to improve the overall pool and players talent. The by product is less travel - which is a huge problem as B/D has pointed out more directly then me.
Well you forgot one but to be honest there are only 3 clubs there that I would even consider capable to teaching good soccer. That's very common out by me as well - both in terms of numbers and clubs that are teaching the sport and managing it correctly.
How many high schools does that same area serve? Gotta say, 7 clubs for that large an area and population, on the surface, doesn’t seem that excessive…. Not to necessarily defend “those” parents, but good teams don’t always mean good player development….my son has been on very good teams (relatively/regionally speaking) that didn't necessary offer him the best development opportunities…but at the time, I didn’t really know any better….
How come? I would count Sockers since the boys were granted u12/14 DA for that location exclusively. Definately not strong with the girls though. If you have a daughter it's very hard to beat the traning at Galaxy and TC.
Perhaps, difference audiences, with different needs/outlooks…the 10 miles local competition bubble doesn’t do my kid shit; hasn’t for several years now….just isn’t enough good local competition to make it worthwhile…we need to travel to Chicago, St. Louis, Indy, KC (farthest we ever gone ~300 miles), etc., to find good games… As such, allowing for less travel, really isn’t a high priority to me….doesn’t really resonate as an issue in need of fixing…
Yes my points are not really going to pertain to your situation. In more populated areas it is however applicable. Some of these clubs are traveling longer distances when they don't need to. I have used this example before, CL Force had a u14 boys team that won Presidents Cup in Florida. While that is great, what is the point - furthermore (and I would argue more importantly), what is the philosophy of the club? Is it to win fancy trophies or develop players who can progress into college or beyond? ***Discalaimer*** in that I am not jamming Presidents Cup - just stating that a lot of these clubs jump into leagues that have fancy names to make the parents feel all warm and fuzzy. Kids could generally care less - they just want to play. So that is my point with travel, if that Force team wanted to learn better soccer by playing in better pools, that could have prepared themselves for future play, they could have picked up to 11 teams at the time who could easily of handed them their lunch - all withing 30 minutes. But you know - parents like to say "MRL" and love that pic on facebook of their kid with a championship trophy. And for the record soccer is by no means the only sport guilty of this. But the bottom line IMO is that it's making the top level less skilled. And while I agreed to eralier that the top is as strong as it's been, a lot of that has to do with a solid path forward and one league at the top for boys. Girls will now have to - so yes while they are great now, I see the skill diminishing as they are segmented further. I understand what you are advocating for is a wider net - which we all would agree on. I see that different then cleaning up the mess of leagues that still in the end serve the more populated areas.
Instead of boxing how about Professional wrestling from the late 1980's? (if anybody else is old enough to remember) NWA and WWF both claimed to be the top league. And each league had 4 or 5 "champions" I remember World champions, intercontinental champions, TV champions, etc. so there where 6-10 "champions" and yes this is tongue in cheek - The points above about less travel and splitting the top level players are valid points. I just thought it would be funny to add the Professional wrestling analogy..
Perhaps it’s neither….or maybe both….or something, or several somethings, in-between those two points… I think part of the problem is that we have declared Youth Soccer is about THIS and only THIS….and anything that isn’t 100% THIS is bad, wrong, looked down on, in need of fixing, or at least, being ridiculed, etc…. Yes, the ultimate goal for many is college or beyond…even though, in reality, only a few will actually achieve it…and for the majority, there is lot of time between having the dream and seeing dashed on the rocks…might as well fill that time as best you can…I mean what’s the alternatives? Stop playing at 14 because anyone with half a soccer brain will tell you your kid ain’t never, ever going to play collage? Or force that kid to train harder and harder, trying to squeeze water from a stone, until every oz. of fun is sucked out of it for the kid? For me, the “best you can” is this….You have fun, working hard, in order to try and achieve a reasonably attainable goal….that’s a good life philosophy… Whether that “goal” the State Cup, the XYZ league, or the rec league championship, it matters little… I assume that CL Force team worked hard, played hard, beat everyone placed in front of them…against teams that worked just as hard and wanted to beat them just as much…I really find nothing wrong with any of this…what you call a fancy trophy; I call a hard won achievement…one that everyone involved (kids, parents, club) should take pride in (warm and fuzzy as that may be)…and it’s not they weren’t playing locally and then regionally (what kc?) before making it to Florida, so it wasn’t like they started out traveling far, they simply earned the right to travel far… Whereas I understand things are “different” up there, it’s hard not hear your comments as something akin to someone being proud that their Class A school won State, only to be reminded that the Class 6A school down the road would have beat the crap of them…yeah, really, thanks…
Maybe because I have only a very small view point on this, but wouldn't NL be "higher" than MRL? The various levels of MRL "higher" than state premier leagues? Here's the thing, if you didn't have as many teams, you wouldn't have as many leagues. My son is on one of the top teams in the state. There are one, maybe two teams in the state that are actually competitive with us. THAT'S why (my understanding) they travel... better competition. You're not going to improve talent by regularly winning by 4-5 goals. I still don't understand your statement that the leagues are splitting the top level players. Can't a team be in more than one league? I know we're in MRL and Kentucky Premier League.
So years ago you would see for boys, Chicago Magic and Sockers FC in State cup - every year - all the way to the top. This was around the time the DA started - no ECNL or MRL or NPL - just ODP and DA. Sockers league games were in the NISL which is US Club. Chicago Magic was a mixed bag with their top teams in NISL and the rest in YSSL which was is US Youth. So US Club vs US Youth... A few years back - maybe 7, US Youth mandated that to be eligible for US Youth Leauges, you cannot participate in NISL Leagues. Sockers were out of US Cup - along with a host of other teams who wanted higher competitiion on the boys side. Any club that participates in NISL is technically ineligible to play in MRL or Prem League. Another example... On the girls side you had a centralized league for your top player - ECNL where 90%+ of graduating seniors went on to get scholarships of sorts in college and 83% went on to the pro league. If you wanted to play college or pro - you had to fight to make it on ECNL. Well now we have GDA and the DA threatening clubs that if they don't pull out of ECNL, that they could risk losing their BDA altogether. So now you have some of the top talent in GDA and the rest in ECNL - split. Any race fans here? I ask because the propper analogy is CART vs the IRL. Two leagues with the same equipment but splitting the talent - both became watered down. You had the Unsers on one side vs the Andrettis on the other - whereas before they were all competing together. I'm not saying that MRL/NPL or DA/ECNL need to fold - but why not an organized effort at the top which involved both sides playing in a playoff/championship like ending? It needs to change from top down. Muf thinks this is an out-reach program but what it really is, is an attempt to get money from parents by intentionally keeping things more complicated then they really need to be. And like I said - soccer is not the only youth sport doing it.
Oh no, we're not the only people complaining about this. The movement is growing. At some point, U.S. Soccer might actually believe me.
You can dear God me and add all the disclaimers you like…but I am not the one who treats anything that isn’t top flight, college track soccer with such snobbish disdain and contempt… In any case, after thinking about it a bit, I’ve concluded that having only one top-flight league, where 90% of those players go on to get scholarships is bad for player development….as opposed to having two, or even in multiple completing high-level leagues; each send a smaller percentage on the college or beyond…. First, you have the concept of entrenchment. It’s that idea that once on a team, club or league, there are factors that work to keep them there (so long as they want to be here), that go beyond simple hard work and talent (which is a given) It’s the idea of being first in the door has inherent benefits. You can make a high level team at 14; and two years later there made be a dozen girls just as good as you…however, “just as good” will not cause you to lose your spot under normal circumstances, and nor do I think you should… I don’t necessarily even have an issue with this…other than the fact one girls has a spot on a league that sends 90% of its players off to college, while those “just as good” players won’t get nearly the looks because they are not in the “right” league…. As it stands now, or until very recently, we have had one league that sends most (90%) of its player off to college…on the surface that sounds great. But is it really, with regard to developing the best players possible? Once you make this league, statically, you have 9 in 10 chance of going on to play college…which means, out of 10 girls, you simply have to be NOT dead last talent-wise to be reasonably assured of a college scholarship…but is that really the best motivation to be the very best you can be or is it a subtle recipe for complacency? If you know you’re one of the better players, what’s the motivation to be the best player? Since one of the better, still gets you a scholarship regardless…. Now, on the other hand, if you have two competing high-level leagues where the talent is spilt (we will assume evenly for this argument), you should now have only a 45% chance of getting a college scholarship. That same girl who once thought, yeah, I am good, now looks around and relies that over half her league mates won’t be playing in college and she wants to one of those who is, she better work her tail off and make damn sure she’s one of the best players on the field…that extra bit of motivation should produce better players; less assurance of scholarship will create more talented players because if forces them to work that much harder… This idea that two leagues would too complicated for college recruiters to figure out where or who the talent is, is ridiculous … College recruiters in others sports don’t need their future players handed to them on a sliver plater under the guise of a single anointed league… The only ones who find the two leagues too or unnecessarily complicated are those who already know, understand and benefit from the current status quo and/or already have a child entrenched in the anointed ECNL…
Fairfax County, Va. Population 1.142 million. Some overlap with Loudoun (375,629) and Arlington (229,164) counties along with separately incorporated Alexandria (151,440) and a little less with Prince William County (451,721). (Also, Falls Church is separately incorporated, but in practice, that just adds another 13,481 to Arlington.) Much less overlap with D.C. itself unless a player makes D.C. United's academy; similarly, not many people crossing into Maryland unless lured there by Bethesda's academy. Full community clubs with large rec programs as well Annandale Braddock Road Burke Chantilly Youth Association (not Chantilly SC) Fairfax Police Youth Club Great Falls Herndon McLean Northern Virginia (NVSC) Reston South County Southwestern (SYA) Springfield South County Vienna (plus Alexandria, Arlington, Gunston, Lee Mount Vernon, Loudoun, Prince William) McLean has DA for U12s. Arlington and Loudoun have DA for U12s through U14s. Virginia Development Academy has DA through U17. That's a cooperative venture of Prince William, Vienna, VSA (see below) and maybe Chantilly. Boutique clubs with only a few teams AC Cugini Barca (not the one in Maryland or the one that's actually affiliated with Barcelona) Bethesda South (affiliated with Bethesda, Md.) Chantilly Soccer Club (not Chantilly YA) FC Virginia (part Loudoun, part Fairfax) Old Dominion (Fairfax/Loudoun-ish) Premier AC Team America VISTA (registers independent teams) A few other nearby clubs, like Virginia Soccer Association, also draw a few Fairfax County players.
This might be getting off track but Mwulf got me thinking about the "college dream" and what that reality is. I have a bit of a skewed perspective as I was a scholarship athlete in the Big Ten (not soccer) so my opinions are colored a bit by my experience. Is "playing in college" in and of itself a worthy goal? I have watched and tracked a local player that I have seen since U6 rec soccer. He was a phenomenal player as a young child and had moved to the Fire by U8 (but kept playing rec for fun and ego). He advanced through the Fire club and ended up in the DA but from what I understand backed himself to the national league team as a sophomore because he wanted to play high school. Given the DA experience he was in that 90% that go on to play college soccer so I have tracked to see where he would end up. He ended up at a Div II private East coast school I have never heard of (although I am not that familiar with the East coast). I have no idea how much of a scholarship he received but I'm quite certain it is no where near a full ride. Is he part of the 90% that are touted as "playing in college"? Probably, but what does that really mean? He is going to a small school (just barely larger than the Naperville high schools) no one has heard of, half a country away, where no one from "home" is ever going to see him play, and paying private school tuition for that honor. The school is not known for developing any players to MLS or beyond so what is the point? To say he played beyond high school? That's great but it doesn't pay the bills. We all have seen the NCAA commercials about the 460,000 NCAA athletes and how most will never go pro (duh) so it is not even an elite crowd to be in when in the job market in a few years with athlete on the resume. I just think that soccer as a whole needs to be honest with itself and the "customer base" that even the 90% these top groups put into college soccer for 90%+ of those that just means more money to shell out to play the game for 4 more years. I don't think that is the impression people have when looking at the college placement stats.
I am more familiar with the Girls side of Soccer than boys... My experience on the girls side is that girls who want to play soccer in college mostly want to just keep playing. It is something that is part of their "identity" and just want to continue to play for a few more years. The trick is balancing the right school (Academic, majors, Location, Campus, social,etc.) with soccer. And Balance is even a bad choice of words as the right school should outweigh the soccer piece (the soccer part still has influence as athletes will probably spend 10-20+ hours a week with the team and coach so a correct fit is also important.) Also , I do think being an NCAA Athlete is a bit of a boost in the job market. Probably not a huge advantage, but still a bit of boost.
I don’t begrudge any for chasing their dream or playing a game they love for as long as possible… Whether it’s worth it or not is an interesting and deeply personal question… The players themselves clearly sacrifice much to be good as they are… Not that there aren’t rewards and good times along the way…there is inherent worth at become proficient and talented at anything…the lessons (hopefully) leaned along the way are innumerable …hard work, teamwork, discipline, focus, sportsmanship, leadership, etc…however, none of those lessons necessitate making it to college to be learned… As parents, we certainly invest a lot of own time and money on the development of our children…and for most, it probably starts out as casual fun, but somewhere along the line it turns into serious business, with expected dividends to be realized…the ultimate one being the coveted “college scholarship”… Specifically on the money side of things, I wonder how many kids we could send to college if we invested all that money, in say, the stock market, instead of club dues, private lessons, cleats, hotel rooms, etc… But then again, I get the general sense that the majority of kids playing club/elite level soccer, mostly come for families that have the means to send their kids to college regardless of any scholarship…I know that’s a broad statement; and I know it won’t be true in every case….but I think the situation of needing a scholarship as the only way someone is going to go to college occurs far less in soccer, then say, other sports like football or basketball…the bottom line is, whereas banking on a college scholarship as the only way to college is crap-shoot, at best, in other sports, it’s an absolutely lousy investment when it comes to soccer (slightly better on the girls side) But then again, It must be pretty cool to say I am going to go watch my kids college soccer game this weekend….(just don’t tell them it’s at a DII school with a 1/8 scholarship that’s still costing you $20k a year)….
One thing I've noticed as a parent -- a lot of parents are interested in sports not just as a means to a scholarship but as a means to simply get into the school of choice. That makes sense if you're getting into Princeton or Virginia or some other selective school. I don't know of any D2 schools that are academically elite, but I may be missing some. D3, absolutely.
Had some cocktails with some fellow coaches over the weekend and this sort of came up as well. Anyhow I know a mom who was happy her son elected to go to a D1 school to get a sports marketing degree. He's on a 4 year full ride so great. Well I don't necessarily agree... Neither did a fellow coach who said his son looked at 3 D2 schools and did so based on how strong their acedemic program was/is for his interested. He was accepted to all 3 and then proceeded to call all the soccer coaches at each school and ask if he could try out. Of course after going through his experience, all three coaches said yes. He's now playing D2 soccer - with a bit of $ but attending his choice of college based on academics. That's the right play in my mind - and perhaps what this player felt as well.
Is this kids playing D1 soccer or is he giving up playing, in order to go to a big school, with a full ride, no less? Either way, I don’t understand what you are disagreeing with…
Entirely possible but knowing the family and the school he ended up at I doubt this was an academic decision. The family is very much into appearances (to wit dropping down from the DA team so he could be a high school star) and I think in the end it came down to him "having to play in college" for the appearance because of all of the dedication they had put in the last 10 years, there had to be a visible payoff. I agree the right fit is important. Speaking from my own situation I made the decision that I was "retiring" after my senior year in high school. I had already decided where I was going to school and was ready to start that new phase in my life. Late in the process the school I had already chosen came calling with some athletic scholarship money and due to pressure from my dad (again the payoff) I decided to continue, since I was attending the school anyway why not take their money. I ended up loving the additional 4 years of competing and I'm sure my college years would have been very different (for better or worse) if I hadn't continued. I wouldn't say my division I athletics has given me a boost in the resume department but did give me plenty of analogies to use in interviews which has certainly helped me in my career. There are huge benefits to competing in college however there are huge detriments as well. I just think that youth and high school sports in general needs to be honest with their customer base that not everyone is getting a scholarship and not everyone will compete in college. I have seen athletes year over year go to a school/program that is not right for them simply because they could get a walk on spot on the team and college athletics has been the expectation since they were 12 years old. One athlete this year is expecting to walk on at the University of Texas swim team. He has had no contact with the coach, doesn't realize/want to hear that there are no open tryouts, and that Texas is a perennial top 3 team. In his mind he has always been one of the better swimmers in town (not state - town) so of course if he sys he wants to do it he can. This has been demonstrated to him for 10 years and he is about to get a wake up call someone should have given him before now. He has told anyone that would listen he will be swimming at Texas and winter break will be very uncomfortable for him and it didn't have to be.
to wit dropping down from the DA team so he could be a high school star Wow - that's pretty shallow. I'm guessing he was a decent DA player?