So just chatting with another parent about how the girls divisions have changed so much over the last 15 years in Illinois. Not sure if this is the case in the rest of the country but I would not be surprised. 10-15 Years Ago ODP A Division A/B Division B Division C Division D Division Now what a mess... Not only with the USClub vs US Youth but within that war we now have a series of other leagues that muddy the waters. Please feel free to correct where ever you see fit. ECNL (top dog for now) GDA PremierShip - NPL - MRL Open Club A Division A/B Division B Division C Division D Division I am not even adding in ODP because in Illinois it's not really that strong. Super Y is primarily a summer league so no point in that either. My kid is in the A division and frankly the A teams I recall from 10 years ago played far better then the A teams today. They (A teams), seem more like B teams too me - probably a result of the many new leagues that have been lopped on top of regular league play. Like I said - a mess!
This US Club vs US Youth is really just killing the sport. Seems like every 2 years there is a re-birth of an existing newer league or a completely new league that only serves to take $$$ from parents. MDL - NPL - MRL - top teams and players spread out in 3 leagues. USYouth State/Regional/National Cups vs US Club State/Regional/National - with the former banning teams that participate in US Club leagues. ECNL vs GDA - albiet not a USY v USClub rivalry, still manages to split the talent from one solid core to two branches which will ultimately water down the play and produce players that are not as skilled. I used to say parents and clubs that held on to 1980's training were the biggest problems. I changed my mind - it's the leagues at the top of the pyramid ruining this sport!
I like this but I think the re-org needs to also start at the basic league level. - DA & ECNL should be a combined platform - perhaps run seperate but regionals and national competitions should be combined. - MRL & MDL should give way to NPL. - ODP should be reorganized to function as to focus on developing a coaching style and methodology which is agreed to by both USYouth and USClub. Kids can be part of it as a means to develop coaches. - A division and A/B division should be integrated between USYouth and USClub (Platinum and Gold) - this allows for more teams and less travel. - B-D should be left alone - local and while we are at it there should be a set level based on a matrix that clubs can charge for a base to play Spring/Fall. Too many clubs are charging the same as they do for A soccer with horrible coaches and less time on the ball.
I see an expansion of the number of divisions/leagues….you say mess; might I say more opportunities, options and refinement of skill levels? Growth is often messy…. If A Division is now middle of the pack, instead of toward the top, then the corresponding talent level should be middle of the pack…the kids playing Division A today, would have been playing Division B 15 years ago….the name and number of leagues may change, but the bell shaped curve of talent remains the same…..A teams don’t play worse today than they did 15 years; because they wouldn’t have been A division teams 15 years ago…
Well certainly you make a good point - if expansion serves smaller more rural areas that is a good thing. But I am not really talking about expanding opportunities as much as I am discussing how US Club and US Youth are just splitting the talent. I think there could easily be an expansion of leagues that already exist - rather then adding more. Basically while you make a good point, it is not the basis of my original post. Correct if I am wrong but you won't (likely) find a core point of the NPL, MRL, MDL, ECNL or DA as being to expand to more rural areas.
That theory rest, in large part, on the idea that there isn’t enough talent to go around…. If on the other hand, you believe we are not fully utilizing the potential talent at our disposal, then expanding more high level opportunities, regardless if separate entities, might in fact, development more, and just as good, of talent then if those opportunities were more limited… When organizations like the NFL or MLB have expanded, there were those who cried that the talent levels would be “watered down”….yet, I don’t really think they were ever proven correct… I think we are long way from maxing out the untapped soccer talent potential in this country…I would agree more organization and/or unified structure is probably needed, and in time, hopefully that will happen…
No there is plenty of talent - I am saying integrating USClub and USYouth will bring that all together. It does not change the spread or access. Teams will have a larger pool at A and A/B. They can schedule games as close or as far as they like - up to what they prefer and what the parents as a whole can afford. RE: the NFL and MLB and claim that the talent is watered down - that has been clearly proven up here. State Cup is no where near the level it was 10 years ago - not even close - not even in the same universe! The creation of DA, ECNL, NPL have pulled the top players out and the battled between USC and USY have split them.
I think what gets lost is those of us (adults) that are comparing state cup today (or A, a/b, etc.) to the same level/event from 15 years ago, since obviously even U18 kids today have no concept of what was played when they were still in diapers. We haven't changed our expectations of the level with the way the structure has changed. It would make more sense to compare today's top level (DA, ECNL, whatever) to state cup 15 years ago. Has the game improved top level to top level? I would bet it has. I just had a similar conversation last night. I have a nephew that is from central Illinois and was an adequate high school player. He never played club soccer mainly due to financial constraints. Last night he attended tryouts for his Big Ten University club team and did not make the team and really didn't even get much of a look. I had told my wife he didn't stand a chance well before the tryout as I knew there would be a ton of kids from Chicagoland that had played club soccer since U8 that were not good enough to pursue college soccer but still desired to play. These players have had years of higher level training than my nephew and many were starters/stars on high school teams. My nephew, brother in law, and mother in law are incensed he didn't make the team and when I tried to explain my thoughts they were not receptive and answered that "you don't realize, the level of play in the rec program he has been in is phenomenal, great soccer". I have seen a few of his games, it is not great soccer, however their perspective is based on when my brother in law played 25 years ago. He played club and high school soccer and I have no doubt that the level he played at is equivalent to the rec level his son has played. They have not seen the advancement of the sport in the last 25 years. They came to several tournaments my son played in central Illinois and saw the differences but wore blinders as the nephew was a varsity player as a sophomore while my son (in Chicagoland) was still on JV so in their minds his rec program had better prepared him for soccer than the massive club fees we had paid.
A diffusion of talent among different leagues will make for teams that are somewhat watered down but is it necessarily bad for individual player development? Asking as a serious question because I'm skeptical that a one size fits all program passed down from the home office is really the best way to approach this in a geographically diverse country of over 300 million people.
It is messy? Is it chaotic? Does it confuse parents as to which the “best” league and who has the bigger bragging rights? Yes… But where is the overall quality and quantity of soccer? Is it better then 10-15 years ago? Like, KD, I think the answer is considerably better…. I really don’t care if this League or that individual Cup is better or worse [supposedly] then it was 10 years….call it watered down….I call it more talent dispersed over greater range of venues….
That would be the key question….personally, I don’t think is it [necessarily bad for individual player development]. Take an A Team of 16 players…. Split that team into 2 Teams of 8, then then bring up 8 players from the level below to each new team…theoretically the top 16 players. Now, did you just decrease, in any appreciable way, the development of those original 16 or did you just increase the development opportunities to 32 players? How you answer that question will probably determine how you feel about this overall issue of “too” many leagues…. Of course, this is all theoretical…and there is certainly a critical mass (talent-wise) where it would all fall apart…but I think we are long way from that, especially in the larger markets and at the top levels….
You're not going to get a disagreement from me that at the top, it has improved. But while training is one thing - player pool is another and i think where I am coming from is tthat from A/B up, improvement could be even better. Certainly State Cup would be more challenging if USY did not ban USC teams... USC's answer to that is a State/Regional/National playoff that has a few good teams but the rest - no... Same for USY. Combined you would have far more top teams however. There is that and then there is the opportunity to reduce travel in many cases - which is a supposed priority from USSF when it comes to youth soccer.
A slightly different view of Illinois Girls soccer with comments: GDA / ECNL (Eclipse is only team in Illinois with GDA and ECNL. I have been told that Eclipse Youth national team or national Camp invitee players are on GDA so it is hard for me to believe ECNL is the A team and GDA the B team. Also told some "top" girls want to play high school so Can't really tell GDA>ECNL or ECNL>GDA. Maybe leave them Equal?) National League (USYS) - Separating from general MRL MRL Premier 1&2 (grouping together) NPL / MRL First (green, black white, etc.) I think NPL for Girls in iliinois is a bit weak comparable to MRL first divisions Open Club A Division A/B Division B Division C Division D Division I separated the USYS "MRL" hierarchy as I think there are large differences between National League, Premier 1 &2 and the First division. Teams in first division are basically the IWSL A/B division from pre MRL years although now MRL starts so young it may be comparable to bottom IWSL A and top IWSL B teams ODP - $350 T-Shirt. Seriously, with US Soccer Training Centers (USSF) and PDP/ID2 (US Club) free, Illinois Youth soccer needs to make this a free program. Also they need to rename the program as it no longer has anything to do with Olympics (national team) or Development.
I would agree - good break down. In terms of NPL - very true on the girls side (they just don't have the depth). On the boys side however I would argue differently. I like many more things about NPL however in terms of infrastructure - over MRL. As far as ECNL vs GDA though, nationally I think ECNL will remain on top for a few years. As far as Eclipse - I was told the opposite - that they are not moving top teams into GDA until the 15/16 years.
Anything outside of the top 2 divisions of MRL is no better A ball. Open is a hodgepodge, I have seen C level teams got to open.
Sometimes I think leagues with fancy names are created just to get more player participation - $$$ They (leagues) know that there are a boat load of parents who will like to say that their player participates in a "Regional League" - as if to insinuate that not local teams are worthy.
Would those happen to be the same parents who say their kid has an "MRL" game they need to go to this weekend as opposed to a "soccer" game? "We're busy Saturday, my daughter has an MRL game" (Not to pick just on MRL parents; you can insert your own impressive league name ECNL, Academy, etc.)
This is what i say to myself : Ugh, yes you do have a MRL game this weekend but it is the qualifying division at u17 and don't forget the IYSF Premiership that let's your say "your state team" plays this weekend.
Whether I say “soccer” or give more specifics, I guess, depends on who I am talking to…many want to know the specific setting, competition. etc….it’s not bragging, is just details some people expect…I would expect the same details about their kid….if it’s just, say, my folks, then yeah, it’s just Jon has soccer this weekend….
The biggest problem in our area is that clubs travel all over creation to play in their own "elite" leagues. So you drive 300 miles instead of 10.
IMO, the problem isn't the leagues. NL *IS* generally going to be better competition than MRL. MRL will be better competition than your state league. Your state league will be better competition than your area league, etc. The problem, if you want to call it that, is too many teams/clubs. Take your group of kids that played 8v8, so maybe 12 kids. They were a pretty good team, making an impression in their local area. But you get 2-3 parents/kids who aren't happy with playing time, or the coach, or a lack of competition, whatever. So they decide they're going to go to another club (or heaven forbid form a new club). They convince a couple others to go with them. So now you have two teams, neither of which are as "good" as the original. I don't know how it is in Illinois, but I've seen this in my state. Louisville, KY has a population of around 750,000. They have 7(!) clubs.
And you and I are the only one's saying this so perhaps I am not clear on the point of integration with leagues from AB/A and up would allow for less travel. D/C/B are already the most local as both large and small clubs have plenty lower end teams.
I live in the Naperville Aurora part of Illinois. Let's just say it is about 400k in population. These are the clubs in my area just off the top of my head. NSA Galaxy Team Chicago Rush Ajax Kickers Naperville Eagles Stavaru Evolution