Discussing VAR [R]

Discussion in 'San Jose Earthquakes' started by mjlee22, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Confederations Cup has put VAR front and center, so I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

    I thought Yesterday's #MEXvNZL game was the worst so far. A mass confrontation was poorly handled.

    In case you missed it, the CR was about to restart the game when he was told to wait for the VAR. I timed the halt in play at 3 minutes. Then, he gave 1 yellow, restarted the game, and on the next play, he halted play for another VAR intervention. Then he gave out 2 more yellows for the mass confrontation. Where I felt there was a massive error was that the VAR failed to card MEX #7, who had run in and slapped 2 NZL players in the face! You can see it in the video.

    I think what really bothers me about this is that, in Silicon Valley, we would admit such a system has significant issues, stop the beta test, and take this failed system back to the drawing board.

    I think if MLS stays its course and implements VAR in the 2nd half of this season, we fans are going to be pretty irate.
     
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  2. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think one of the problems is that this is not like goal line technology. There, you are using a computer to do something better than a human can do.

    But the nature of VAR is that you are essentially replacing one human's opinion with another's. so you end up adding to the inaccuracy by introducing more individuals' judgments.
     
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  3. billward

    billward Member

    Oct 22, 2002
    El Cerrito, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Video Assistant Referee. I had to google it. Evil and horrible and an abomination! Totally against the spirit of the game. The additional assistant referee is the obvious solution.
     
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  4. TyffaneeSue

    TyffaneeSue moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 15, 2003
    Upstairs
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I was at a soccer meeting last night with much discussion of this game. The VAR, used this way, makes no sense. In fact, it's hard to understand the justification for it at all.
     
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  5. billward

    billward Member

    Oct 22, 2002
    El Cerrito, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you read the Laws of the Game ... the whole thrust of them is that it's up to the referee to decide things. You add a second-guesser, it throws the whole system out of kilter. Fallibility of the refs is a big part of the appeal of the game. Plus, the whole idea is that the kids play by the same rules as the pros.
     
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  6. TyffaneeSue

    TyffaneeSue moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 15, 2003
    Upstairs
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Trigger words...
     
  7. leocal11

    leocal11 Member+

    Feb 7, 2005
    San Francisco
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not like Infantino will ever read this but, here goes.

    Hey FIFA.
    Your current VAR implementation sucks!

    Here is the way I would introduce video technology into the game. Think NFL.
    Each team's coach would get to the option to challenge ONE and only one call from the central referee during a half. And that is it. Use it wisely and conservatively. Some calls of course, would not be challenge-able.

    Think how it would have helped Ireland make it it to the World Cup.
     
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  8. SoccerMan94043

    SoccerMan94043 Member+

    May 29, 2003
    San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn't see the videos that the referee watched, so I don't know how good or bad VAR was.... the referee certainly wasn't good. Perhaps purposely sabotaging the trial?

    I'm all for more accurate calls, but they definitely need to work on the process. The trials we saw a few months back were pretty good as I remember.

    Also, robots are going to replace all of us eventually, why not refs now?
     
  9. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I'd rather soccer took a stand against robots than p*to.
     
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  10. markmcf8

    markmcf8 Member+

    Oct 18, 1999
    Vancouver, WA, USA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How about two center refs? One for each half of the pitch. When the teams switch sides at the half, the CRs stay where they are. That way, each teams gets both refs for a more or less equal amount of time. Of course the two CRs would need to work together and make their calls consistent with each other. BUT, it would allow for the CR to be two places at once. It would mean that they don't have to be super fast (Speedy Gonzales!) to keep up with the game. They'd be able to devote more of their energy to thinking and less to running. Also, you could have refs on both ends of a long pass, not just one, or lost in the middle somewhere.

    The video thing is going to delay games, and it's going to make the refs even more vulnerable to second guessing and criticism than they are now, and they are pretty exposed as it is.

    FU-FIFA!!

    - Mark
     
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  11. billward

    billward Member

    Oct 22, 2002
    El Cerrito, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    yeah the two center refs idea isn't bad - after all, in more casual levels that's all they have, instead of CR + 2 ARs, they just have those two. When I played rec league we had two refs only, I think one of them was designated the main ref and the other was AR but functionally it was similar to how you describe. 2 CRs + 2 ARs in combination would probably see more.

    When they do the AAR system it seems like they should have the AARs positioned on the far side of the goals from the ARs, not near them. That way they can also look out for other issues in that corner of the field.
     
  12. bsman

    bsman Member+

    May 30, 2001
    MadCity
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes

    IIRC, this was tried in the 90s and was quickly shelved. I think it ended up being too confusing for all involved.
     
  13. DotMPP

    DotMPP 'Quakes fan in Stumptown

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jun 29, 2004
    SE Portland, OR
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It is my understanding that even with VAR, the center ref still makes all the decisions as to what calls are made on the field, the ref viewing the video is supposed to answer questions made by the center ref.

    Of course, this is so new, and not a simple process, that there are bound to be issues at the start. They have to be able to screw up a few times before they get a handle on how it should be done.

    The military made fun of the helicopter when it was first demo'd to them...
     
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  14. TyffaneeSue

    TyffaneeSue moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 15, 2003
    Upstairs
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I have been to recent games with two referees. I think the issue is that one person ultimately needs to make the decision so the two referees need to be in sync and not arguing over calls. But if they are a compatible team, it works well. I still understand why it didn't stay in fashion long.

    How about asking the fans to vote instead of VAR? That would definitely engage the masses.
     
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  15. bsman

    bsman Member+

    May 30, 2001
    MadCity
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes

    Absolutely. Then, the VAR could be replaced by:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I keep telling people that VAR will be the New Coke.

    Plus I keep thinking of VAR as Value Added Reseller...
     
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  17. Beerking

    Beerking Member+

    Nov 14, 2000
    Humboldt County
    #17 Beerking, Jun 24, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
    THIS!^
    This is a massive mistake in the making that will forever alter the game of soccer, it's so wrong on so many levels it disgusts every fiber of my being. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
     
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  18. bsman

    bsman Member+

    May 30, 2001
    MadCity
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    So, may I take it that you're still on the fence?
     
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  19. Beerking

    Beerking Member+

    Nov 14, 2000
    Humboldt County
    The fence can be seen in a rearview mirror. :D
     
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  20. KMJvet

    KMJvet BigSoccer Supporter

    May 26, 2001
    Quake Country
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They need to make it not at the CR's discretion when reviews happen. Just follow the NFLs lead. Coaches get a challenge. If they use it and it goes their way they get another. They use it and it fails, it's gone. The CRs in the confed cup are picking well what to review. So, just put that on the coach and since if you fail you lose it, they won't do it willy nilly.
     
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  21. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree totally. This idea of reviewing primarily to prevent egregious errors seems to be causing more egregious errors.
     
  22. KMJvet

    KMJvet BigSoccer Supporter

    May 26, 2001
    Quake Country
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm glad you figured out what I was trying to say even though I left a word out, ie the CRs were not picking well what to review. Hopefully MLS implements things differently.
    Part of why I like video review in general though is I like anything that allows the referees to get more of the major calls correct and I think VAR has potential to do that. I think refs should be paid based on the quality of the performance and VAR should allow them to have a tool to get more tough calls right and thus get paid more. So for me it's just one piece of what I think would really help the game. I don't expect anyone is considering my pay scale that's based on quality of performance model for improving refereeing in the USA though. But I think for that model that I propose to work, one has to give referees every tool they think they need to do well and be well paid.
     
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  23. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Points from this Espnfc writeup for MLS video review, which starts after the all-star game
    • All goals will be checked by VAR
    • If a review happens, the avg delay is 2 min 41 sec
    • The VAR will communicate directly with the broadcast team and the stadium PA announcer so that fans can be told what is happening
    I really hope that after our half-season of use, FIFA realizes they should move to an NFL model where coaches are allowed a set number of opportunities to request video review.
     
  24. bsman

    bsman Member+

    May 30, 2001
    MadCity
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I disagree with conceding the decision to coaches. There may well be strategic reasons for a coach to call a review (i.e time to rest players, make tactical adjustments, etc.) that it would likely be used as a stalling tactic. In football, a coach who "loses" a challenge also loses a timeout. Would you also be in favor of the coach losing a sub pass for an unsuccessful challenge? If not, I can guaran-friggin-tee you that it will be played by coaches, and the thought nauseates me.

    No -- it MUST be at the discretion of the referee.
     
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  25. Beerking

    Beerking Member+

    Nov 14, 2000
    Humboldt County
    Almost 3 minutes of interrupted soccer, I hate this idea to the very pit of my soul. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:
     
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