Discussing VAR [R]

Discussion in 'San Jose Earthquakes' started by mjlee22, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. MtnGardener

    MtnGardener Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 21, 2017
  2. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Your words were in a prior post, and I quote: "I think the NFL gets it right almost always." (Emphasis added). "Always" is a pretty categorical term, and "almost" doesn't provide much wiggle room.

    The truth of the matter is that the NFL gets it wrong regularly and repeatedly despite the existence of video replay technology.
     
  3. MtnGardener

    MtnGardener Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 21, 2017
    Thank you for informing me of the apparently definite limits of "almost" and also of "the truth of the matter" that my own much-less-valid observations failed to uncover?
     
  4. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Almost always NFL replay gets it right? Here's another example from last season (2016), several years after replay rules were adopted, where the refs undeniably got a very easy call wrong, even after replay.

    https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...a-fumble-but-the-redskins-still-got-the-ball/

    How many anecdotes must be aggregated before you concede you have overstated matters?
     
  5. MtnGardener

    MtnGardener Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 21, 2017
    Look, I watch plenty of football and I have since the 80s. You want to know how many anecdotes will change the opinion I have from watching hundreds of games? You tell me how many anecdotes that you already knew about would change your definition of "almost always". Maybe we just have a different definition of "almost always"? I think 95% is good. You think 99% I'd guess? No big deal. I think underneath is just a disagreement about VAR. I think it is good now and will get better. I think getting the big calls right is important. In return you'll have to futz with some not-so-big calls at the expense of the flow of the game.
     
  6. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Almost all the examples of NFL officiating errors I gave were of game outcome-changing calls, which I consider by definition to be "big."

    The last example, where the Browns were improperly divested of a ball while losing in the 4th quarter is arguably not game-changing, and occurred in a nearly winless season, and therefore was arguably not big, unless you're a Browns fan.

    Nonetheless, the Browns / Redskins screw-up illuminates a (the?) major flaw in the video replay system, and it is not technological in nature. The standard for reversing the human error on the field in the NFL is one of "indisputable video evidence," which as phrased and interpreted, is a higher standard than required to criminally convict someone in an American judicial proceeding. Accordingly, the presumption of NFL officiating propriety is absurdly greater than the presumption of innocence in a courtroom. And the reason the Browns were not awarded the ball after video replay despite it being obvious to everyone -- beyond any reasonable doubt -- that the Redskins never recovered the ball, is that the video of the ball was obscured during part of the play. So, the error was upheld by the replay despite the fact everyone knew it was in error. This problem will recur with big, game-changing calls, as well as small, insignificant ones, because error is baked into the process. NFL officiating is not "almost always" right, and cannot be, because the standard and process of review is structured to ensure error is validated, even after looking at the video.
     
  7. MtnGardener

    MtnGardener Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 21, 2017
    Almost all?

    But seriously, is your position that the NFL would be better without instant replay? If so, you may be the first person I've ever heard express that opinion.
     
  8. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    My position is that NFL instant replay would be better if error was not validated by virtue of the process itself. Replay standards of proof matter and they influence the quality of the outcomes. (I may be the first person you've heard express that opinion.) This should be of interest to our discussion of VAR in MLS, but it does not even arise if we falsely assume the NFL has nearly perfected the process.
     
  9. MtnGardener

    MtnGardener Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 21, 2017
    Pardon? I understand each word but I am not sure your plain-words point. Do you not like that they don't overturn things that are pretty definitely wrong if they can't get a clear enough view? What specific lesson would you like MLS to take from the NFL and what NFL error-in-ways would you hope MLS could avoid?
     
  10. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    #85 don gagliardi, Sep 11, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
    Get the call right almost always, unlike the NFL. :)

    Here's the latest example of NFL video validating error, from yesterday.

    “There was nothing conclusive that would overturn the ruling on the field,” [NFL referee Brad] Allen said. “All the views we had were inconclusive, so we have to stay with the ruling on the field.”

    http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/new...-win-over-redskins/11i7gh9jdzvj71psed0atyi1tp
     
  11. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    In all seriousness, de novo review, whereby the video officials get to determine the play unpolluted by what was called on the field, is likely to derive a better success rate than the NFL's unduly deferential standard of review.
     
  12. MtnGardener

    MtnGardener Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 21, 2017
    I agree that would be better. I think that given the pre-existence of referees and the need to work with them as a stakeholder that no league is likely to go that way. More likely is just better technology. I could imagine 3D reconstruction from multiple video angles combined with things like markings on the ball that are unique so that the full ball's orientation can be determined from a small visible piece even without the margins showing. But that is a lot of technology. The Bundesliga is having trouble just keeping "offside line insertion" SW running, apparently.
     
  13. KMJvet

    KMJvet BigSoccer Supporter

    May 26, 2001
    Quake Country
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was very annoying the last game that on the red card they were so slow to get to VAR. I don't have a problem with them reviewing it all or the card. What drove me crazy is they didn't use any of the time the player was down, which was a very long time, or even the time when he was up wandering around to actually do the VAR. I didn't time the stoppage, but it was very long. The announcers said 1 minute 20 s from VAR signal to resuming, which is short enough, but sort of misses the point. because if you add the time spent before they did the VAR signal from when the original whistle blew, I wouldn't be surprised if it was 5 minutes. It's not as if the ref needs to find out the degree of the injury, nor does he need to help with an injured player once the trainer is out there. Just get on the VAR and let other people work with the injuries or fake injuries.
     
  14. Earthshaker

    Earthshaker BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 12, 2005
    The hills above town
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because it took that extra amount of time for someone from TFC to see the replay and complain that it should be a red card.
     
  15. bsman

    bsman Member+

    May 30, 2001
    MadCity
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    There is no communication between the benches and VAR officials, nor between the benches and CR save for what they shout, or say to the fourth or trailing AR.
     
  16. Earthshaker

    Earthshaker BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 12, 2005
    The hills above town
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Where's that damn tongue-in-cheek emoticon when I need it?
     
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  17. KMJvet

    KMJvet BigSoccer Supporter

    May 26, 2001
    Quake Country
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That VAR official was just far too slow doing his/her job then IMO. That worries me that perhaps they didn't start right away and only did so after seeing how long the player was down. Not being there to see the process, I don't know that's it, but it is a concern that this could promote the particular flavor of gamesmanship of laying on the field a long time. Hopefully they're timing every one of the VAR incidents from whistle, nor from the TV signal being made and assessing the why's on what aspects take time.
     
  18. SalinasQuakesFan

    Mar 27, 2010
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    My understanding is that the VAR does not initiate a video review. They only inform the CR that they may want to review an incident, and probably the reason as to why. That may explain why in this case is "took so long" to be reviewed. It is up to the CR on whether they do or don't actually do the review.
     
  19. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    913995635937783809 is not a valid tweet id


    This NE ejection in the 11th minute changed the game and ORL won 6-1
     
  20. SalinasQuakesFan

    Mar 27, 2010
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Why are you disparaging the VAR ref. He did not make the call to issue the red. The CR did. He may have brought the incident to the CR's attention, but the CR is the one who made the decision..
     
  21. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know the protocol is that the CR makes the final decision, but how many times has the CR ignored the VAR’s recommendation in MLS this season? I think I saw it happen once (either Stott or Salazar played on), but I haven’t been following all the VAR decisions.

    The problem is, the protocol says to intervene on a “clear and obvious error”. So since it was initially a yellow, Rivero is already telling the CR that he has made a possibly egregious error. That puts the CR on the back foot immediately. My real point is that when we saw that play, both hubby and I immediately said, that’s a yellow at worst. So for Rivero to intervene and say it’s a red—especially at the 11th minute when it takes real big balls to make that call—is such a big mistake from the get-go.
     
  22. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Extra Time Radio podcast interviewed Howard Webb to catch up on VAR & how it’s gone so far.
    • They will keep working to improve consistency on what is a clear and obvious error.
    • Obvious error is NOT a 50:50 call or even a 70:30 call.
    • Appears he is pretty happy with how they are doing. 25 other leagues have expressed interest in how they have implemented it
     
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  23. bsman

    bsman Member+

    May 30, 2001
    MadCity
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    On balance, I felt it worked as intended. It didn't lead to significant delays in games and frequently corrected mistakes.
     
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  24. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS has some stats.
    • http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2017/...howard-webb-breaks-down-year-1-implementation
    • During the regular season, a total of 33 clearly wrong calls were changed to the correct final decision via Video Review. And goal scoring opportunities also weren't negatively impacted: Video Review led to 11 goal-scoring chances (including penalty kicks), while cancelling out 11 others. Also, of the 20 reviews for red card offenses during the regular season, 13 led to a red card being shown.
    Joe Dickerson gave a talk at SJSRA the other week. He did his first MLS game on Decision Day. He was not a member of MLS PRO before being assigned, and had only worked USL games, so he had never used VAR and got a pre-game lesson from Mark Geiger, who was his VAR for the game. Joe said it was very reassuring that Geiger would tell him “Check Complete” on anything Geiger reviewed. According to the article above, VARs do about 100 checks in a game.
     
  25. mjlee22

    mjlee22 Quake & Landon fan

    Nov 24, 2003
    near Palo Alto, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The MLS Pro referee group is introducing a hashtag to submit questions to them. You can also submit via their website. I thought it was pretty funny that they used Magnus' photo for this tweet.

    I would be very surprised if they got very many civil questions this way though...

     

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