Developing Players For A US Style of Play

Discussion in 'Coach' started by rca2, Oct 23, 2017.

  1. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    Because this subject is complicated and controversial, I thought it deserved discussion in a separate thread.

    More and more I am convinced that the path for evolving the US game to a higher level lies through Dutch Style principles of attacking soccer, Spain's Positional Play system which uses a grid to organize off the ball movement while in possession, and wingers who defend the outside channels so that we typically defend with 8 or 9 field players behind the ball.

    I have always been and still am convinced that the best system to serve as the foundation for team tactics is the 433.

    Dennis Mueller (yes, Coach Mueller) recently posted this on the Soccer America website:

    "Way too many people seem to think that it just takes a little good coaching and players will be transformed into international stars. Sorry, I think it just does not work that way. What I think we are seeing now is the wave of players in the US whose parents actually played some soccer back in the 90s at the beginning of wave of players into US Youth Soccer. It is parents who mostly determine what their kids do prior to their middle teens and today's parents have a bit more of a clue concerning soccer than their parents did. As a result their children are better players than they were (at least on average). The children of today's players will be better than their parents. Those kids will have enough skills, soccer brains (or instincts) that good coaching will have the possibility of molding the best of them into a very formidable team."

    "Gulati along with Arena, Bradley, Manny Schellsheidt, Siggy Schmidt and and a host of other very good coaches have all played a role. If you listen to them when they talk about youth soccer, they all see it as a process and will admit that the USA is still not at the pinnacle of that process. Their ideas seem to me to agree that young players need an environment both to be challenged and to have fun and that the younger the player the more joy should be in the game. The players should feel free to take risks and to express themselves creatively; none of those coaches want little robots. There is plenty of time when the players reach their late teens for them to be challenged in ways that teach them to balance risk and reward when they are too fully developed for some coach to thwart that creativity."

    What Coach Mueller is pointing out is that as practiced our player development system has dropped the ball as to what is age appropriate training. The last thing we should be doing is forcing young kids to play a disciplined, risk-adverse possession style of play in matches, yet I see clubs starting risk-adverse possession style play at 8 years old. Somehow there is a disconnect between what America's top coaches are saying and what we are doing at the club level. In the early years of player development the focus should be on technical skills and mentality.

    Don't misunderstand me, there are clubs now, and some clubs always have been, following best practices. I won't be happy, however, until every club does and every kid that wants to play and learn has the opportunity.

    So when players are U14 and we have already hooked them on the joy of playing and competing, then we start tactical training and applying discipline to their creativity. This brings me back to Dutch Style Principles and Spanish Positional Play. (I had to go to a Spanish source before I learned that positional play uses a grid system to organize off the ball movements.)

    In another thread I mentioned Marcelo Bielsa.

    In order to field a back line with great ball skills, Bielsa uses FBs as CBs and midfielders as wingbacks. So we should be training players with ball skills and the ability to play multiple positions. Our player development model for CBs should be a player like Geoff Cameron who can also play FB and CM, rather than someone who only plays CB. FBs should also be able to play winghalf or winger. The point is that every player should have the technical skills to play a technically demanding possession style of play. Early specialization and using systems with role player positions detract from long term development.

    Of course not every player will develop into an elite player, but every young player ought to have the opportunity to try if they want.
     
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  2. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I agree that we should play with four backs and not three. But the four don’t always have to be the same four. In fact we still can be attack from the back. But with interchange of positions and over loading one side or another to get a good cross off. I don’t agree with playing three strikers either

    I rather play 4-4-2 two strikers gives more your space to attack. Three strikers you have less space to attack. It ok for women to play because men are faster then women they can get behind the ball faster then women can.

    I think you still need three strikers with one coming of the bench. I also think every practice should have 20 minutes of just striker practice. But the strikers have to also attend regular practice first.

    In other words the wing mids should do a lot in ever practice. We need multiple wing mid attack. Not just one or two runs.

    I like Dennis Mueller coach of the Princeton soccer club. I used one of his handouts. But when we played his teams they lost both games to us. I even stole from him on how strikers played defense when they lost the ball.

    I stole how to play defense against flank players from hota baravaria. And beat them using it. He used to coach the rough riders and coached the Metrostars.

    I think the American style should be take what works on all styles and make it our style. In other words steal if from them and make it our own. I heard that what they do in the japanese league.
     
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  3. Rebaño_Sagrado

    Rebaño_Sagrado Member+

    May 21, 2006
    Home
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Nic if your formation against Marcelo Bielsa was 442, player personnel being equal, he would lineup his team to play 343 against you. If your 2 forwards and wide mids were winning 1v1 battles against Coach Muelle,. Bielsa would keep that extra defender as cover precisely because of the risk of players losing those 1v1 situations in the defending third.

    I really enjoy Marcelo Bielsa's coaching philosophy. I think his style translates very well to developing young players. It requires a lot of energy, and awareness from individuals and synchronization/coordination as a team. I've had success with it while maintaining development a priority and not necessarily trying to win at all costs like some coaching peers in SoCal have been observed.

    Some other coaches to study if you like Bielsa's method are his coaching "disciples", Jorge Sampaoli, Matias Almeyda, Javier Torrente, Gerardo Martino.

    I think the most important thing for US Soccer to become an elite footie country is get someone with a true vested interest in developing players. Whether it is an MLS club looking to lowering their wage bill or a foreign entity looking at it as an investment.

    P.S. I have seen many Serge Gnabry types, man what a nightmare to matchup with this outside forward as a small fullback, be wasted by coaches who prioritize winning or haven't gotten an effen clue. And I mean type, as in physical speed, strength, change of speeds/quickness and ball skills from every cultural background imaginable, latino, black, white etc.
     
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  4. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    #4 rca2, Oct 24, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
    @Rebaño_Sagrado Have you any experience using a grid system to organize off the ball movements in 11v11? (I have never used any system to organize off the ball movement and never played in a system that did either.)

    Regardless of your answer to the question, at what age would you suggest coaches start trying to manage interchange between the lines?

    Two common examples of interchanges are an attacking fullback overlapping along the flank and a striker and a center midfielder exchanging places.

    When I played competitively during the 80's, my coach never told me how to do the battle for control of the flanks. I simply knew it was my job to dominate my opponents on the flank and how I did it was left to me. Soccer has come a long way since the 80's.
     
  5. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    CIES just reported results of a survey of player height at every club in 31 top division European clubs. It concludes that:

    "No correlation exists between the average height of teams and results achieved. The gaps observed rather reflect different approaches to the game. While some coaches prefer tall players, other give priority to shorter ones. However, very short players will struggle to establish themselves as professionals. The average height of all footballers in the leagues surveyed is 182.1 cm [71.7 inches]."

    http://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/b5wp/2017/201/en/
     
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  6. Malabranca

    Malabranca Member

    Oct 6, 2016
    In line with this discussion here is an interview with Hugo Perez talking about the need for the USA to play more creatively:

    https://www.socceramerica.com/publi...ez-its-time-for-the-usa-to-embrace-creat.html

    One of the more interesting points:

    "The academy is a good idea, but I think it should be for U-12 to U-16. The 17s and U-19s, they shouldn’t be traveling around the country playing youth soccer. They should be playing in adult leagues. They should be playing against adults."
     
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  7. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I was speaking last night with a coach in my club last night, because we played the an MLS academy team this past weekend in a few age groups. Our U13 and U14 still pretty close, we actually beat them. Starting at 15,16,17—training 4 days a week and in a professional environment—their players really start to pull away.

    In the older teens, this coach's view is that A) the talent is really consolidated and that's not to say there are more good players on an MLS academy team, it's to say that you train against the best players in an area. So you're forced to be faster and sharper. B) Players at that age and level have chosen to make commitment to really push themselves to stay at that level.
     
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  8. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    Age 15 is important developmentally. Not coincidentally it is the end of childhood and the beginning of adulthood. The training differs. The physical aspect becomes important too. Functional training, periodization and cycles, more individual attention. With less contact time than the MLS staff has, something has to be left out of the training plan.

    You might be correct to attribute to being "faster" to tougher competition, but I suspect that SAQ, strength and endurance training has something to do with it too.
     
  9. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    I use my eyeballs to analyze play.

    Without video, I don't see how a coach can effectively discuss particular plays with a player. In my experience, players don't remember specific past plays accurately (unless it was spectacular like scoring a goal or own goal) even when they are subbed out during the match. You end up always with an ordinary teaching situation, having to establish the "hypothetical" circumstances.
     
  10. Foundation Age Coaching

    Aston Villa
    England
    Nov 27, 2017
    As a Brit coaching in the US, one thing I've noticed is that a lot of teams,including the plan set from the USSF, seem to base their style of play on a different nation. For me, this is the wrong way to go. One of the reasons the Spanish can play such a slow and steady possession based game is due to their culture - it's relaxed, siesta's are a way of life and they even take their time eating food.

    The American culture lends itself to a more swash-buckling style of play - in your face, loud and taking what you want. Something akin to a gegen-pressing style. The athleticism of players in the US should allow for the high tempo
     
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  11. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    #12 rca2, Dec 28, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
    @Foundation Age Coaching How do you explain the Scots' historic short passing game and the suggestion by some that it influenced the Latin short passing style play?

    What you associate with culture, I associate with environment. "Hot Weather" soccer versus "Cold Weather" soccer. Another way of saying it is "Summer soccer" versus "Winter soccer."

    In my experience, when it is over 100 degrees all teams tend to play with less energy off the ball.

    What difference does it make? In my view good soccer is good soccer regardless of culture and all tactics are situational.

    There are some aspects that I agree are cultural like cheating--diving, shirt pulling, elbowing and so on. In some cultures rules are obeyed and in other cultures cheating is encouraged and socially acceptable.
     
  12. Foundation Age Coaching

    Aston Villa
    England
    Nov 27, 2017
    @rca2 I don't see the Scots as a great example if performance on an international stage is to be considered. Yes, they have produced some great players over the years (Souness, Dalglish etc) but they've also never gotten past the first round of the World Cup.

    The weather is a fair point, and one I should have fully considered. However, I still believe that a "US style of play" has to consider the mentality of the country. Sports in the US have historically been high scoring & athlete dominated. It's the land of opportunity where people can make something of themselves if they go and get it. And, when compared to most European countries, it's a sport that is built from the grassroots up (as opposed to the pro game down in the likes of England, Germany etc). Getting buy-in from parents is vital for the system to be built from the youth up, and personally I feel that the USSF need to consider an aggressive style of play that puts them on the front foot early in games in order to get that support.
     
  13. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    #14 rca2, Feb 6, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
    @Foundation Age Coaching You have some misconceptions about US culture and US soccer. First off our most popular sport is pointy football which is only high scoring because a touchdown is worth 6 points instead of 1. On the other hand basketball is high scoring, but multiple points are also awarded for "goals." Hockey and tennis are examples of low scoring sports.

    In the US soccer is multi-cultural and the demographics of players and fans vary widely from one geographic location to another and by age (youth versus adult) and by gender (women vs. men). Did you know that the US has 60 million Hispanic citizens? That is a larger population than England has total.

    While some of our national team players were Hispanic, other players also played in unaffiliated Hispanic leagues in addition to AYSO and USYSA clubs (Clint Dempsey and Landon Donovan are examples). Every adult team I played on was ethnically diverse. In some areas of the country Hispanic players and coaches influence everyone's development at least indirectly.

    For historical information about systems of play, I recommend reading Inverting the Pyramid by Jonathan Wilson.
     
  14. smontrose

    smontrose Member

    Real Madrid
    Italy
    Aug 30, 2017
    Illinois, NW Suburb
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Parent crashing the party... I agree with @Foundation Age Coaching. my son and his BFF started playing at about 11. They play exactly as F.A.G. describes.
    They are now trying to fit in high level pre academy club play. All their teammates who have been in the program forever are robots. play with no feeling.
    I don't know much about soccer but it seems to me we should be morphing some euro style approach with USA bravado.
    The closest thing I see is Ronaldo and Real. When they have the ball, most of the time, they are looking to score. To me they don't appear to back up much.
    As an american I think this 1-0 is bollocks! with the size of our country surely we can produce a team of men energetic enough to play like this and still defend, no?
    After thi slast world cup non qualifier debacle I don't understand why there wasn't a literal torching of it all. Like in the Frankenstein movie.

    carry on.
     
  15. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    The difference in our views may be explained by the differences in our experience with the game. I was a player, coach, and occasional referee. I played with and against many hundreds of players from all over the world. I have even played some competitive co-ed and coached some girls teams.

    Mind you I am not saying my opinions must be right because of my experience. I am just saying that this explains why we don't see the game the same way.

    If you think US players typically don't play aggressively with lots of running, then you haven't watched any USA national teams play or any local high school teams either. We are notorious for aggressive attacking and "athletic" play. What most people say is that US players lack skills compared to other countries. Some people say that skilled players are out there, but USSF coaches don't prioritize skills.
     
  16. stphnsn

    stphnsn Member+

    Jan 30, 2009
    have you guys read "soccer starts at home"? the idea is really basic: create a culture where kids grow up with the ball at their feet and play for fun every day. that's the only way we're going to take advantage of our large population relative to other soccer playing countries. we have to have a larger number of players who grow up living for the game. that would trickle upward. if we become a soccer culture, our participation rates go up, and the number of rock stars we produce goes up, based on numbers alone.

    as far as developing a national style of play, i think that's something that develops organically. your style of play comes from your technical ability, physical characteristics, and tactical nous. we've always played the way we had to play based on what we had available. you can't change that, or you end up with a klinsmannian disaster. you make lemonade. yes, ultimately the goal would be to have players who are as technically skilled as the spanish and as tactically astute as bielsa while maintaining our physicality. until that happens though, you have to do the best you can with what you've got.
     
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  17. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    @stphnsn I agree. Parents lead the way on culture.

    A subtle point, the original post is about developing players for a national style, not about developing a national style of play. My belief is that the style will be determined by how the players are developed. So changing the style of play is about player development rather than game management.

    I think you concluded the same thing, I am just stating the coaching problem differently, i.e., its a player development issue not a game management issue. How we define the problem shapes where we look for solutions.
     
  18. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Yes. I love that book. Use the concept(s) daily with my two older kids. So simple: RWTB, stopping, turning, changing direction, shielding, and switching the ball from left foot to right foot. Tom Byer is a former Coerver guy, as am I. I think everyone that does Coerver evolves—it's a good platform but it does have it's holes.

    Not because it's popular right now, but since our guys love to run and you don't need a lot of technical prowess: playing a high-pressing game would be ideal. You need to drill a lot but defending is probably our strong suit. You need something to hang your hat on until the technical and intelligence side of our game catches up. Recovering the ball high up also minimizes our weakness (inability to build up through the thirds).
     
  19. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    On another issue, I think the states/regions should be more about developing their own identity vs a national. CA and TX, sorry if it's stereotyping, but lends itself more to a positional style of play. The US keeps wanting/trying to apply national this and that, it's too big.
     

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