I've watched all the World Cup games recently and I've seen a ton of MLS this year. One thing I think our national team lacks vis a vis some of the real powers are defenders who are adept at playing the ball out of their own end safely to teammates who can then move an attack. While we may have players who are decent markers and who can hit a clearance in back, most of them are not very adept at calmly collecting the ball and moving it forward to the midfield. Berhalter, for instance, is especially atrocious with the ball IMO. And in watching MLS I've been alarmed at some of the backline play. Columbus, for instance, during their Open Cup match against KC was really awful coming out of the back (although that was just one night). So I'm curious as to who folks here like for the future in the backline for both their ability to mark and clear as well as their ability to play the ball forward with accuracy. From the few Fire games I've attended this year Bocanegra seems pretty good. He's very athletic and links up well with the midfield. Who else? Because IMO this is something that is overlooked in the battle for possession.
Thank you. I've been saying the same thing all along. Pope is quite horrid internationally also at passing the ball well out of the back. One time against Mexico it looked like he tried to lob a pass to Reyna and it ended up hitting him in the back! The best passers out of the back I've seen are---Kelly Gray, Bocanegra and that's about it without including outside backs. Broome has gotten a lot better at this, as has Suarez, but I think both of them are going to play outside.
Jeff Stewart for the Colorado Rapids has done a great job this year, his rookie year too. It might not hurt to call him in for a friendly match to see if he can hold his own internationally. From one article at the Colorado Rapids forum he played as a center back in college, although he has played outside for the most part.
Excellent observation. For so long we have been saying that our biggest problem was finding/producing natural goalscorers. But I think that it is secondary to finding ball-playing defenders. I have to use Mexico's Marquez as an example, even though he played like a dirty hack against the US. Watch any of Mexico's first round games and see how well he carries the ball forward out of defense and finds the penetrating pass through midfield. He is always calm and assured on the ball and never panics or gives it away. We still don't have a player like that. Dooley could do it in his younger years. But we all know that he wasn't a US produced player. It is the next step in US player development that must be reached.
Reply to Foot Mundo I agree with you completely. Bocanegra is really good as well. What about Eddie Pope, he brings the ball out pretty well as does C.J. Brown.
What do folks think of trying to use Mastro in this type of role. He is very physical, he's strong enough to hold folks off and he has decent enough skills. We can find another destroyer in the midfield. Kelly Gray? I've always thought of him more as a midfield player, but admittedly I've not given him much thought. CJ Brown was very solid this year for Chicago as well. I have not given Stewart much thought really. It definitely is a weak point of our game though and I think it is something that can make a really big difference in a team's level of play.
I disagree with the whole premise of this thread. Our defenders pass OK. Our problems have been DEFENDING. Germany didn't score on a bad USA pass-they scored on getting beaten to a high ball. Poland scored 3X on bad defending, as did Korea. You would look at USA passing if our offense sucked, but it was actually quite good.Our need for better passing in defense is WAY below our need for faster and stronger DEFENDING.
I don't know about using Pablo Mastroeni as a last defender type. When he has played in the middle this year for Colorado he does a lot of slide tackling and isn't on his feet. We have seen this with David Regis too and I wasn't that impressed. I think the idea of having good passing out of the back is important. If we look at what Tony Sanneh did, well he has good size and excellent foot control with the ball. Numerous times when he was in a corner he would come away with the ball.
Unfortunately for David, he also never got a shot at his favored Central Midfield position. And Bruce S, Germany scored on a faked dive that was rewarded with a free kick that led to a score. Michael Ballack was one of the top 3 performers, IMO, in the World Cup. It wasn't so much bad defending as it was great attacking, if you ask me.
Yes, but . . . I agree that what is most needed is an upgrade to defensive aspects of our defenders' play - which IMHO includes better speed to allow them defend quick counter attacks such as at least two of the Poland goals. But better passing skills is not merely a offensive-oriented luxury for defenders. Better passing and bal skill helps the midfield retain possession which in turn takes pressure off of the defense. Two names to consider for outside back are actually Reyna and O'Brien. While I personally hope that both of these players are still leading options in midfield for '06, its possible that one or either of them might well have made the transition to outside back for the USMNT by then. (Reyna to right back might actually make sense in '06 and O'Brien already seems to have been pegged as left back for Ajax). Of course even if O'Brien and/or Reyna are playing as backs for their clubs, the USMNT will need them in midfield until someone else comes along with their skill level and mix of offensive and defensive capabilities. No one else really matches them right now.
I think this is inaccurate. We've produced players who could pass nicely out of the back for a while now: Mike Windischman Danny Pena Robin Fraser Marcelo Balboa Mike Burns Mike Sorber Pablo Mastroeni At least a few of these guys grew up with visions of Beckenbauer in their heads. But maybe they weren't good enough defenders. Sampson - despite screwing Marcelo Balboa's career - thought like you and I. That's why he invested so much in Dooley, Burns, Regis and was always looking to put midfielders into the back. Bruce clearly opted for speed and physical presence over passing, vision and ballhandling. And who's to say he was wrong? Tony Sanneh did quite well with the ball at his feet - who'da thunkit? Jeff Agoos was Bruce's distributor - that's scary. But then we got to the World Cup, and his distributor was Brad Friedel. Pablo only got into the mix, remember, through injury to Armas and then (predictably) Reyna. Incidentally I agree with those who think Pablo's leaving his feet too much - I don't think his spell as a defender for Ray Hudson was a good for his development.
I think to further this point, the whole reason Ballack had a chance on that set piece was because our defenders (esp. Berhalter) were constantly fouling the German attackers in dangerous positions. This has something to do with being aggressive and playing essentially 3 in the back, but they were forced to foul bc they were getting beaten over and over (esp. Neuville on the counter). I'm honestly surprised that another couple of those dangerous free kicks didn't find the net. After all, the Germans are as fine tuned on set-pieces as any NT. I think the main reason we lost that game is bc the German's, tactically, knew that they had a superior defense. As a result, they chose to play conservatively and bet that our defense would make a mistake bf theirs did, and they were right. This is true esp. when considering that the Germans had intimate knowledge of most of our defenders from the Bundesliga/2B. The overall improvement of our defenders is the biggest issue IMHO. Contrary to some posters, I think Pope and Sanneh played beautifully in the WC. If they were younger, I would feel very confident in central defense, but either may not be a factor in '06. I worry about Pope's health over time. I might support DMB playing left back (which is our weakest point), but he needs to grow to be ideal. He could be our ace when we need to involve our whole attack. He seems to possess the poise, ball-handling, and smarts to be a great defender. I also believe teams give themselves an advantage by focusing their offense through the left-side. Unfortunately, the replacements for our defense pointed out in this thread are a not a source of optimism for me. To get any better than we did this WC we really need to have a couple or three world class defenders. Is there a Lucio, Desailly, Hierro, Ferdinand, Roberto Carlos, Campbell, Stam, Marquez, etc. waiting in the wings for the US? Sadly, I am not seeing it, yet. T-B
No, Berhalter is #3, not #12. Are you being serious? Berhalter is the only defender that can use/pass with both feet. He is the best passer on defense that we have (had?)
Arena and defenders Noah Dahl suggests that Bruce Arena values distribution and ball skills in defenders less than other skills, which distinguishes him from Steve Sampson, among others. Thus Bruce doesn't, for example, convert midfielders to defense with the same zest as Sampson. Let's check it out in the WC squad: Left back. In early 2002, it is clear Regis has been out of form for some time. Does Bruce immediatelt replace him with Bocanegra, Vanney, or Berhalter? No. Why? I think Bruce thought Regis' superior distribution and ball skills made it worth the risk that Regis would regain form. When a change absolutely had to be made, does Bruce look to the established left defenders in the pool? No he picks Surfer Dude, a converted right midfielder with superior ability to get forward and distribute. One strike against the Dahl thesis. Right back. In early 2002, a black hole in the US defense. Bruce could move over a superior defender such as Eddie Pope, and play Llamosa in the center with Agoos. Does he? No, he stays with the three players who have been struggling, all converted midfielders who are seemingly less solid defenders, but who undoubtedly have better distribution and ball skills: Sanneh, Cherundolo, and Hejduk. Two strikes against the Dahl thesis. Left center back. Bruce stays with Agoos through thick and thin, until injury do them part. Why? I think it was half Agoos was the defensive organizer, and half that he was the main distributor from the back. There were better man markers and defensive stoppers in the pool, but no better distributors (Mastroeni does have better ball skills). Dahl thesis is wrong again. Right center back: Eddie Pope. Here Dahl is finally right. Pope is there for speed, athleticism, strength in the air, marking and tackling, not for passing or ball skills. How many other coaches would obstinately stay with Pope, rather than a more modern, skilled defender like, (what was that list again Noah?) Mike Burns, or Windischman or Sorber or Pena?
It is about more than just passing. I am also refering to being skilled and comfortable with the ball at their feet. That is why I made the comparison to Mexico's Marquez. Not only is he a good passer, but he is very calm and composed when dribbling forward out of defense. We do not have a defender anywhere close to him in this regard.
You are definitely not watching the same games I am watching. None of these guys is great. But Sanneh and Regis are our best passers in defense. Berhalter was flat out awful with his ball skills during the World Cup. I know, I just rewatched all the games last week. He looked very uncomfortable. Pope made some bad mistakes as welll. One particularly bad ball from Pope came against Mexico. He literally handed the ball to an attacker on a weak pass 25 yards from our goal. It nearly resulted in a goal.
Mulrooney looked good leading up to the Cup. I thought he showed to be the best passer of all of the US defenders at that time. (I would have picked him over Sanneh, so glad I was not the one making the choices.)
you MUST start with defenders who defend well. Once you have that covered, ONLY then can you look at advanced passing skills. Again, I disagree with the basic premise here-our defenders pass OK. Not great, but it was definitely not a particular weakness at WC 02. I don't think we gave up a single goal on an atrocious pass. We gave up several goals on atrocious defending.
We do have a few years to get a new bunch of defenders groomed for the WC2006. Agoos is gone, Llamosa is gone and Sanneh may be on his way out, he will be 35 then. MLS has produced Bocanegra and Suarez. Both are great defenders first, and then they can get out of the D with the ball at their feet or knock forward to the midfield quite well. I saw Boca take on four or five Galaxy defenders a few months back, beat all of them and then put a shot off the post. He will the heart of the US defense in 2006. www.lariotsquad.net
I just watched the WC highlight video-USA coming of age. Our defenders pass fine- but man, did Agoos get fried or what? Geez, I have liked the Goose but he had a major nightmare, game after game. Game 1, own goal. Game 2, beaten on the tying header Game 3 beaten on a near-post header on goal 1, then a near post run for goal 3, then injured. THAT is a bad world cup. Good God, ya gotta feel sorry for that. It hurt watching him on the replays. This had nothing to do with passing, everything to do with speed( lack of) and bad tackling.