Jozy has 8 goals and 4 assists in 12 games worth of minutes. In the wide open Eredivisie, he had Adam Maher and the wing-forwards serving the ball on a platter for him to score. Even in MLS, he doesn't get the space and isolation he encountered in the Netherlands. His touch and movement simply weren't good enough at Sunderland where space was more constrained and isolation on a defender rarer.
Competitive matches against high level competition? It's truly a small sample size. 5 games in Confed and 2009, 4 games in WC 2010, and 15 minutes 2014 WC? 1 goal in those games is not a grand stat, but I would be shocked if he struggled every one of those matches. I would wager he completed passes, drew fouls and even held up the play well enough. That's not to stated he didn't blunder plays, simply stating looking at the box score in those matches is taking a small portion of the game out of context. Did he blow away the competition? No, though I'd argue he was also quite young and probably would have done better in 2014 (which he was playing with great confidence prior to the hammy injury) Did he fail at points in his career? Absolutely. Some were play and some were simply career choices, but to look at the the results and his stats without looking at the whole picture is an injustice to him. Sure he performed poorly at Sunderland and hull, but so did both teams as a whole. I think his large price tag and precious year's performance with az skewed fans expectation. He still was a flop with Sunderland but I don't think fans would have been nearly as harsh
I also include games against Mexico, CR, and Honduras in Concacaf qualifying and Gold Cups. This has been gone over multiple times in this thread. He has 2 goals in about 20 games.
Fair enough but lack of scoring does not equate to struggling. While scoring is a major role for a striker there are certainly other aspects to the game a striker provides to help the team. I'm sure there were games where the collective of usmn fans were shaking their heads at his play screaming he be subbed or benched they following match, but I'd wager that there were some games where he helped the team earn a result that didn't include his name on the score sheet These higher quality teams apply more pressure to Jozy (well any striker) opening up space, lanes and opportunities for other players to come thru. As a collective we all can agree that we want to see his name on the scoreboard more often in these types of matches, but it's clear that we all don't hold the role of the striker in the same regaurd
Its not like he has a ton of assists. He can be somewhat useful without scoring, but in the end that is the # 1 job. My bottom line is that there is reason to be dissatisfied with his performances in the past, but there is also reason to be optimistic that he will turn a corner of sorts in the upcoming two years, and start contributing in the biggest games. With Pulisic drawing causing havoc and drawing double teams, and with a high energy striking partner like Bobby Wood who can also stretch the field, I have hopes space and chances will open up for Jozy.
Combining this with the time at Hull and Sunderland is the best anti-Jozy argument. The WC games, the EPL games, and the Mexico qualifiers are the most high profile games he has played, they have to count for something, so many people were watching. On the international level my counter is that he has scored against good teams, and as Nate Silver's model work discovered there is no appreciable difference in the predictive value of friendlies vs. official matches. 1. Playing good teams in official matches is still a rare occurrence, by one count 20 times over about 9 years, so roughly 2.25 times per year. If Jozy had virtually never scored against a good team that would be one thing, but maybe the distribution is just due to the random nature of when he and the team are hot. 2. Elo is generally considered to be more accurate than FIFA rankings, which one gives more weight to official matches? The theory is that both teams take the game equally as seriously as the other and due to the level of professionalism the aggregate results are just as valuable.
@Otergod I'm not "ignoring" anything about Jozy's game. I've seen every single competitive match USA has played in the last 20 years or so. And I've watch Jozy carefully (see my moniker, created in more hopeful days). He is not great at the "little things" such as pressing the opposing defenders or creating space for his teammates. He is rather static. Nor has he been involved in many important buildups in the 20 games I mentioned. His biggest additional attribute is he gets fouled a lot, which is helpful. I don't use the word "struggled" necessarily, but I've definitely been disappointed with his overall play. I think people can be rightfully disappointed for his past play, especially considering his expected potential, but can also be optimistic for his future play.
Then we look at his overall play with different microscopes. To claim he was not involved in many important build ups in those 20 games is ludicrous. He may not have been the scorer or the assister but he was certain part of important build ups thru those 20 matches. I am no way saying he was flawless in all 20 of those matches, nor am I saying he was junk in them as well. It's safe to say that he had a wide spread of quality in them, some bad, some good, and Meh for the others.
I'm great. How you doing? I feel pretty good about my fealty to the thread, starting with the title. Part of debunking the Jozy hate is showing, statistically, that Sunderland did not show Jozy to be a "lousy" striker in need of "benching" or not getting called up, but instead showed that he is not so exceptional a goal scorer that he can transcend the terrible set-up that was Sunderland in those 18 months, but that, outside of the "set up to fail" Sunderland set-up, Jozy basically continued to score apace, and once in MLS, went back to the zone of his "normal" scoring rate that he showed for USMNT and AZ. I feel especially good about pointing out the absurdity of your claim that Jozy losing his "bulk" has fundamentally changed his game in some way that he is now "technically" better and has improved his "weakness" of "touch and movement" due to losing said bulk, as evidenced by his "aerial" win percentage. That part of this silly exercise has entertained me the most. And for that I do thank you.
I can't remember an important assist or contribution aside from the header in the Slovenia game. If you know of any others please inform me. And his inability to contribute meaningfully at Sunderland, Hull, or Villareal is further evidence.
Algeria goal. His run occupied the defender and he also made the cross to Dempsey. Are you sure you watch all the games?
As much as I enjoy a good debate I am way to lazy and have drunk far too much to recap specific plays off the top of my head. Perhaps if I get some downtime at work I'll investigate further I seem to remember he drew around 5 pks his first year at Sunderland. Given if he was their pk taker his stats would have been a bit more buffed (well just about any addition to his stats would have buffed them up) What does his club play have to do with those 20 matches? To rebuttal, he had success at other clubs disproving your evidence. Is Jozy a PL striker? In the right scenario with the right support, sure. But he's not going to save a team from relegation, especially when said team spends most of the time playing defense I really do think people let their expectations skew their opinion. I'm willing to chalk up the good and the bad together. No player is perfect
Where are you getting this material? Did he transcend Villarreal and Hull City, as well? Yeah, because a 50% increase in aerials win proves nothing. It was all down to getting away from evil Sunderland, though the improvement happened two years after leaving Sunderland.
Certainly a 50% increase in "aerials" is the universal "footballer stat that most reflects striker quality." I don't know why they even bother to record those silly goals and assist. (You do know, I hope, that whoscored has Jozy winning MORE aerials his 1st season at Sunderland... by... wait for it... 50%!! 2.4 vs. 1.8 OMG!!!! that proves... uh... it proves... uh, um... Ok I will admit to having no idea, nor any real interest in that particular stat. I would suggest it is as close to meaningless out of context as any stat you could manufacture, but if he was that good at Sunderland...) Also, Jozy's pass success % was better in 2015 (and at Hull! lol.) What other stats should we find? The "bulk success" stat? We all know that "losing bulk" ameliorates a striker's "weakness" in "touch and movement" except when that touch is pass success... If only Jozy would take up yoga.
Can you provide the link to Nate Silver's work? A google search only provided references to Women's National Team friendlies. Jozy had 79 other matches against the good teams of La Liga and EPL. He has had plenty of official games against quality, over the years. Performances in actual tournaments are probably the best indicator of a team's quality, yes?
No. But losing weight probably helped. Or maybe it was all down to getting away from the Evil Sunderland Distortion Field, the effects of which apparently lasted two whole years. He has greatly improved over last year's per-90 rate, as well. Or maybe that also down to getting away from the Evil Sunderland Distortion Field, the effects of which apparently lasted two whole years.
You are right, he has "greatly" improved this year from a goal every 145 minutes to a goal every 133 minutes! Almost an 8% increase! Stop the presses!! Call the papers!! Try again. You'll find something. And again, Jozy is having a great season. Nice to see there is no sophomore slump. But there is also no "new different, sleek and slim Jozy who has overcome his weakness in touch and movement." There is a marginally better, clearly motivated (and perhaps finally fully healthy) Jozy who is thriving at Toronto FC and playing well for the USMNT. Which is all I really care about anyway.
And he went from a goal every 145 minutes to a goal every 133 minutes. Or would you like to "bulk" that up too? AZ 2013 1 goal or assist per 100 minutes. USMNT 2013. 1 goal or assist per 66 minutes. Your turn, cowboy. This is a silly exercise, as you well know. But it is kind of fun beating you at every turn. Jozy's Jan - August of 2013 was one of the best of his career. By some metrics even better than this year at Toronto (although if he keeps it up and continues to contribute to the US qualifying campaign, this season could easily be best ever. Keeping my fingers crossed.) But Jan - August of 2013 came before S'land, in case your calendar app stopped working. Love, freisland
Assists are a part of goal creation as far I know. Altidore's year over improvement has been pretty incredible. My focus has been on Altidore's improvement within MLS from the 2015 to the present. What point are you attempting to make? He had a nice 2013 in the Eredivisie, in friendlies, and in competitive matches against the likes of Jamaica. So? Again, so what? You're simply taking a snapshot of a single year. I'm discussing year-over improvement in a player's game in the same league. He had a great 2013. OK. What happened at Hull? Villarreal? Sunderland? The ~20 competitive matches against decent international competition?
At this point, I have no idea what you are even arguing. You accused me of "arguing with myself" like 20 posts ago, but you seem compelled to respond for some reason. I've pretty much laid out my point here and the numbers speak for themselves: If you look across Jozy's "mature" career, his AZ, MLS and USMNT are more the "norm" for him than his Hull or Sunderland stats. And the AZ, MLS and USMNT stats are in a reasonably narrow range, esp when compared to S'land. He did not lose his ability or develop extreme weakness at S'land. He simply does not thrive on that kind of team - and is not a good enough striker to reshape or rescue a troubled squad by himself. But as soon as he returned to a set-up and league that suited his abilities and strengths he "reverted to the mean" for the most part. That's all. Jozy in late-2013 was perhaps only a move out of northeast England away from the Jozy of June 2013 (and there's many of us that would not be ourselves if we relocated to Sunderland! My mom still shudders and crosses herself at the mere mention of Manchester!) This season he's playing great too, much like he was playing in srping of 2013 at AZ, or in the summer of 2013 for the USMNT. Or even his 1 goal per 180 minute contributions as far back as the 2009 CONCACAF qualies. Jozy's abilities and level have been pretty apparent for anyone who wanted to pay attention. If you have a side that can't utilize those abilities, he is not going to save you, but with the proper players around him, he is still, and has been for 5 or 6 years, the most consistent pure forward/striker the US has had. Wood could/is now give/giving him a run for his money, but in terms of "debunking" the Jozy "hate" anyone who posted during his time that he was at Sunderland, or any time after, that he was no longer the best choice (when healthy) for the US was wrong. That's all.
'Blame Sunderland' isn't much of a point, really, not for a player who has played at striker on 5 teams. His stats track the difficulty of the leagues in which he has played. He simply got exposed as happened at Hull and Villarreal and in competitive matches against good international sides. He thrives once he returns to an easier league. That's what his record shows. He does well against lower -level Concacaf teams, MLS teams, and Eredivisie defenses. My argument is that improvements in his game hint at greater things to come. You seem to have this weird fixation on 2013 and Sunderland. Jozy has had an expansive career, from which more reasonable conclusions can be drawn.
Well then, we have no argument. I have never said that improvements in his game don't hint at greater things to come. (Although I still think the idea that "less bulk" affects touch and movement is a bit, uh, of a stretch.) I've just argued that the "improvements" we've seen in his game in MLS are not so much "improvements" at this point, but a reversion to a moderately high level Jozy already established at AZ and with the USMNT. Jozy has had an expansive career, which is why it's fairly easy to see in what situations at what level of competition Jozy thrives. This thread is about debunking Jozy hate. I'm not sure how Jozy was hated for "improvements that hint of greater things to come." Jozy was "hated" (and many called for his benching for the USMNT) for moving to a poor situation and not being able to be used effectively or impose himself on the game, not because of any real loss of long-term form. Thasall.