Das Reboot and the Road to UEFA Nations League & EC2020

Discussion in 'Germany: National Teams' started by Ger90, Jun 27, 2018.

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  1. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    stats are made to be broken one day. It's all about the R32 draw.

    Germany haven't bombed at the WC before 2018 since 1938, during the infancy times of the WC.
     
  2. Thomsen

    Thomsen Member+

    Aug 6, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    I mean, it became perfectly clear to me that when facing stronger opposition - Kimmich and Goretzka struggled offensively and defensively sadly as I slightly feared
    And Süle's performances do not indicate that he should be a starter for the NT lol
    Boateng's lost speed and flexibility after all his injuries, it's sad to watch
     
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  3. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    So you agree he should play as a 10
     
    Ger90 repped this.
  4. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I'm sure Hoeness already called Loew and told him not to pick hummels boateng and mueller
     
  5. Karl-Heinz Riedle

    Aug 27, 2009
    Dublin, Ireland
    Club:
    Cork City
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I think Ermre Can is the kind of player who plays better against better opponents.

    Emre Can missed out last 1.5 months not because of injury btw, its thyroid issue near his throat. HE didnt need an operation n things can be controlled by medicine.

    But i guess he prefers to have an operation. But thats not an injury but a rather common illness.

    I dont think 2 midfidlers (one "6" n one "8") is enough in football nowadays. Of coz if u are playing back-three and u have an extra defender thats another story. Then maybe the defensive side is enough because one of the CBs can move forward and cover the space between defence n midfield.

    unless teams are playing 3-4-3, one "6" + one "8" rarely work unless there is a Kante/Torreira in ur team. Most teams nowadays play with 433, one "6" and two "8"s, give the midfield a lot of stability.

    Thats what ive been saying before WC, if we needa play two "8"s in midfield without a natural "6", we can only play with back three. @Ger90 said its not preferred, but i said with our setup, we had no choice because Kroos, Oezil all need covering.

    I dont think its the issue with Kimmich n Goretzka........but its the formation. Midfield battle is the trend, and one "6" + one "8" simply isnt enough

    Its particularly difficult for NT when the "8" is Kroos, who needs a lot of covering. So we had to play back three. but against a weaker opponent? We can take away a CB and play a CM there instead to stabilise the midfield.

    Kimmich at 6, Goretzka/Kroos + another 8 makes more sense. I think Neuhaus will be an interesting candidate in long run. Gundogan/Jonas Hofmann/Demirbay are all options.
     
  6. Karl-Heinz Riedle

    Aug 27, 2009
    Dublin, Ireland
    Club:
    Cork City
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I prefer one 6 and two 8s

    We have many options at 8s:

    6: Kimmich, Emre Can, Demme, Rani Khedira
    8: Kroos, Goretzka, Gundogan, Demirbay, Jonas Hofmann, Neuhaus, Eggestein

    There is a log jam at 8 already. Not to mention talents are easier to emerge at "8" than at "9", because of the formation trends.

    When we are going to convert Havertz anyway, why put him in the midfield log jam? Move him up top is also converting

    If it works out, we might have an answer at striker in the next 10 years or so, UPSIDE is huge if it pans out;
    IF it doesnt? We can still stick with Werner or Petersen.......LOL we basically got nothing to lose.

    I said unless we have elite "6" n "8" like Kante, Witsel or Torreira, i dont like one "6" + one "8".

    Kimmich + Kroos/Goretzka are probably our best midfielders. dont give me enough confidence, unless we are playing back three and one of the CBs goes forward and cover the space between Defence n Midfield.

    If we are playing one "6" n two "8"s , we dont really need a "10" role. And number 10 role is actually a obsolete position, more n more elite teams are sticking with 433 or 343 outside, look at Barcelona, Juventus, Chelsea, Liverpool, Real Madrid n PSG.

    With the players we have, especially when Kroos n Goretzka both need covering, i the one "6" + two "8"s is the best solution for now. If we are playing 343, we have one extra defender, so we can use one "6" n one "8" ......

    I dont like using "10" either, i like more defensive attributes in midfield. Havertz doesnt show that he is a good 8 and his defensive game is not good at all.

    Why let him drop back n develop as an "8"? When his strengths is clearly in the final third?

    The ideal case, i wanna see him be used like Firmino or Max Kruse.

    Lewandowksi, Van Persie, Suarez, Lacazette, T.Henry, Aubameyang and Alex Meier also developed from Wingers/AM to striker. Its about the quality n traits we see in a player.

    Havertz is all-round and has potential to play there if hes further developed. Maybe he needs another 4kg of muscles........but thats basically it.

    And always remember, its not difficult to develop midfielders in Germany. Its 9 we cant find solution
     
  7. Karl-Heinz Riedle

    Aug 27, 2009
    Dublin, Ireland
    Club:
    Cork City
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Email to Mr. Kuntz in November. I sent these emails to Peter Scheffler (media coordinator) and he gave me Mr. Kuntz's answer. Kuntz's answer in green




    1) Mr. Kuntz mentioned some of the problems Germany have in youth development. There are too many missing qualities and elements in the youth players: how to win duels, take advantage out of set-pieces, winning headers and the handling of one-on-one situations.

    Is there something to do with the “Spanish way” DFB have implemented in the last couple of years?

    When your team is holding 70% of the possession each game, only playing pass-and-move, avoiding crosses and duels, your strikers are required to drop deep into the midfield to contribute to build-up play. In this case, what is required from a striker will be different from the more traditional box-dwelling and goal-scoring roles. Furthermore, when such tactics are widely used at the youth level, young strikers are going to be less comfortable doing things like winning duels and playing combatively inside the penalty box. Basically, young strikers in Germany are not exposed to combative and intense penalty box play anymore.
    Was wondering if Mr.Kuntz would agree that the possession oriented approach is a reason why German youngsters have lost some of the football basics.


    Wir haben über viele Jahre mit diesem Spielstil Erfolg gehabt und wurden vor einem Jahr als amtierender Weltmeister und Confed-Cup-Sieger noch für unsere Jugendarbeit beneidet. Genauso wie damals nicht alles richtig war, ist heute auch nicht alles falsch. Es gibt aber nicht nur die eine Stellschraube, wie zum Beispiel das Spielsystem, an der wir drehen müssen, um wieder erfolgreich zu sein.



    2) How are DFB going to cope with this situation is also another interesting topic. The last top class striker Germany have produced was Mario Gomez in 2006. The development of youth players has be undergone by clubs, but are DFB going to set guidelines or provide helps to the clubs? Perhaps monitoring/reviewing their training methods and give certain feedback will be crucial.
    Are DFB doing anything to find solutions to the youth development issues? If yes, when did this start? Can he give us some of the changes DFB have made in the last couple of years?


    Der DFB macht sich innerhalb einer Arbeitsgruppe schon seit einigen Jahren intensive Gedanken, wie wir Schwachstellen im System verbessern können und wer alles dabei mithelfen muss. Dadurch, dass viele unterschiedliche Interessen involviert sind, wird das ein langwieriger Prozess, und es braucht die Bereitschaft aller Beteiligten, etwas ändern zu wollen.


    3) As Germany are in a desperate need of strikers and fullbacks. Does Mr. Kuntz see any potential in Kai Havertz of becoming a short-term solution at the striker position?
    As we have seen, Havertz from Leverkusen is a complete package. He has everything they want in a modern attacker: size, aerial ability, pace, composure, vision, technique and finishing ability. Standing at 188cm, Havertz has the ideal height for a centre forward; he is pacy, skilled, composed and clinical. Havertz is slightly lightweight at the moment, but that is normal given his young age. If the 19 year-old is able to gain another 5-6 kilograms of muscle, his physicality and combativeness would improve and make him more comfortable playing with his back-to-goal and inside the penalty box against big defenders.

    If Mr. Kuntz doesn’t agree, are there any other names who he thinks can provide some help at the problem position?

    Mit den oben genannten Thesen stimme ich überein. Kai Havertz sehe ich aktuell eher als offensiven alleskönner, da er hier auch seine Übersicht und fußballerische Qualität besser einbringen kann. Es ist schwer, aktuell jemand herauszupicken und demjenigen diese Bürde, Deutschlands Sturmhoffnung zu sein, aufzuerlegen. Wir haben auf jeden Fall Talente im Sturm, die allerdings noch in der Entwicklung sind. Deshalb ist Druck von außen das Letzte, was sie brauchen. Ich traue Davie Selke, der letztes Jahr mit uns Europameister wurde zu, zukünftig eine gute Rolle einzunehmen. Er wurde leider durch Verletzungen zurückgeworfen, hat aber bereits bewiesen, dass er in der Bundesliga seine Tore machen kann.




    4) Is Mr. Kuntz aware that young players from Eastern Europe, France and England are preferred ahead of domestics talents? Is there any way DFB or DFL can control this and help the local youngsters to integrate better in professional leagues?

    Are there any ongoing discussions about this topic within DFB?


    Natürlich machen wir uns Gedanken darüber. Es ist nicht so, dass sie den einheimischen Talenten vorgezogen werden – die deutschen Vereine würden auch lieber den Jungen aus der Gegend in den Profikader hochziehen – sondern, dass sie teilweise in ihrer Entwicklung weiter sind als die einheimischen Talente. Das liegt unter anderem daran, dass unseren Spielern in der Entwicklungsphase zu viel abgenommen wird und sie beispielsweise weniger Konflikte austragen müssen als früher. Es gibt, wie schon gesagt, nicht das eine Instrument oder die eine Institution, um diese Entwicklung zu ändern. Alle Beteiligten müssen zusammen an einer langfristigen Lösung arbeiten. Bis diese Maßnahmen dann greifen und wir profitieren, werden allerdings auch wieder einige Jahre vergehen.
     
  8. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    #3133 The Jitty Slitter, Dec 14, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
    Nah - it just players are much more tactically flexible

    Messi plays very much as a 10 but sometimes as a forward sometimes as a midfielder

    Dybala is also a complete Hybrid

    Ditto Ozil who played increasingly as a hyrbid 10 / 8 for germany or from the wing as with Arsenal

    Griezmann plays a bit like a 00s team (Bergkamp) playing very much as a support striker and playmaker in possession but then more as a midfielder out of possession

    The other thing is the extra midfielder often comes from the flank. You can play with only 2CMs but one of the wide players can play narrow.

    The formation notation doesn't really add much to our understanding as in practice, someone will need to take up those positions that a 10 would take up

    See for example City - you see notionally twin 8s with Silva and KDB but these guys take turns occupying the half spaces that the 10 would take up
     
  9. Karl-Heinz Riedle

    Aug 27, 2009
    Dublin, Ireland
    Club:
    Cork City
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany

    Well, i mentioned If Havertz can develop like Firmino or Kruse, it sorts out a lot of problem

    The upside is just huge.

    I am not a fan of "10", yes we can have a playmaker but i think Kroos, Gundogan or Neuhaus to share the responsibilities of that role

    We have more than enough "10" converted "8", and there's a log jam.

    I dont know why u think Havertz shouldnt even be tried as a striker.......what do we have to lose? Our striker options are Werner, Petersen, Volland or Uth. If it works out Havertz can be a important part of our future, instead of being like a 5th or 6th choice converted CM

    My question is: why cant a playmaker used as CF? Johan Cruyff, Firmino, Kruse, Stindl, Messi all had some sort of success.

    Yes, u mentioned drop back too, so why cant Havertz drop back as a striker?

    In a 4-3-3 i think Kimmich, Goretzka and Kroos are the best we can have now. With Can, Gundogan, Demirbay/Hofmann/Neuhaus as other options at "6" or "8"

    343 i think Kimmich n Kroos can occupy the midfield, when there is an extra defender can go up for covering

    We have more than enough "8"s, we dont need Havertz to be a 5th or 6th option there.

    And for the NT, with the players we have (please dont compare to club football where u can buy, or France when they have Kante n Pogba)...........we cant afford to play one "6" + one "8", when the 8 is Kroos (who requires two players for covering).

    One formation works for Juventus n France doesnt mean much. They have like the flawless personnel. Individual quality is superior. Germany have different players.

    If we have Kroos in midfield, unless we are playing back 3, i would say one "6" and two "8s" is the best solutuion. ANd i think everyone knows Havertz shouldnt be developed as an "8" in long run. Magnifying his weaknesses, waste of his ability in final third and there are enough talents at "8" (i even think Neuhaus is a better 8 than Havertz who isnt a natural 8)
     
  10. Karl-Heinz Riedle

    Aug 27, 2009
    Dublin, Ireland
    Club:
    Cork City
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I have talked to many professional coaches, players, Detering n scouts.

    I think many including Klopp, Hyballa Arne Friedrich and Timm Detering. They all think playing Havertz at CF can be a transitional solution.

    Havertz can be a free roaming forward with physical attributes, aerial abilities n good hold up game, u want in a striker.

    Werner n Uth might not have such important attributes as striker in build-up. They are only for counters.
     
  11. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    hard to see Bayern making a 19 year old as CF....
     
  12. Dage

    Dage Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 4, 2008
    Berlin
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Havertz is no CF, he would play on the wing or on Goretzka's position.
     
  13. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    speaking of Goretzka didn't KHR also want to make him into a CF? Seems like any guy with the right height and physicality should be made into a CF.

    wonder if he thought Ballack should be made into one back in the day, when Klose was the only good Germany striker until the emergence of a young Podolski.
     
  14. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    what do you think about Mustafi as a false 9?
     
  15. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Air Mustafi all the way.

    Draxler------Mustafi--------Muller

    good enough to win the WC, got an Aeriel threat in Mustafi. A Muller who works best behind the striker but playing on the wings and a Draxler who doesn't dribble much, dribbling phobia and likes to back pass all the time. Pretty much the same 2 wingers at the WC. What can go wrong.....
     
  16. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I remind everyone,

    Mustafi IN
    WC 14 Trophy
    Euro 16 SF
    CC17 Trophy

    Mustafi OUT
    Biggest disgrace in Germany's history at the WC in 18.

    coincidence?:p:D
     
  17. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Mustafi rein - Loew raus!
     
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  18. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I prefer hummels to lead the line with Mustafi at false 10
     
    Ger90 repped this.
  19. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    If I recall Hummels dribbled past like 3 Real Madrid players last season. He's the German Messi, so Hummels should be AM, while Mustafi as false 9.

    we should also try Boa as a winger.
     
  20. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    lol just imagine having a full XI of defensive players.:ROFLMAO:

    reminds me of Bayern U19 how some games this season they played with something like 8/11 defensive players, 1 CM (other midfielders were DM) and only 2 attacking players. So pathetic for a club like Bayern to play like that conservatives to the max.
     
  21. Karl-Heinz Riedle

    Aug 27, 2009
    Dublin, Ireland
    Club:
    Cork City
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Yeah it’s funny

    Haha

    One day when Havertz is used as striker, as Kuntz suggested, maybe u guys will not find it funny anymore

    Lewandowski n Wagner are also aging, lol, maybe no one realises.

    And who are the emerging strikers? Kane n Icardi?

    Havertz is so much more than physicality, I see him the same mold as Johann Cruyff
     
  22. Karl-Heinz Riedle

    Aug 27, 2009
    Dublin, Ireland
    Club:
    Cork City
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    We can stick with Volland, Werner, Petersen n benchwarmer Selke as strikers

    Lol, absolute disgrace of players who shouldn’t even be called up

    Then u will say “because they play striker for their clubs” yes.... Hennings too
     
  23. Karl-Heinz Riedle

    Aug 27, 2009
    Dublin, Ireland
    Club:
    Cork City
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    When u have Neuhaus, Kimmich, Kroos, Gundogan, Goretzka, Emre Can in midfield

    Yes, convert Havertz into an “8” , best idea
     
  24. Karl-Heinz Riedle

    Aug 27, 2009
    Dublin, Ireland
    Club:
    Cork City
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I think the ironic bit is, Lewandowski started his career as a SS/AM too

    U remember Alex Meier, Firmino, Kruse n Stindl?

    Yea, again it’s impossible

    Bunch of stupid ignorant people who are so afraid of changes. If u can’t see traits then Kimmich would never have been a Right Back in first place

    N I bet u guys know more than Kuntz, Klopp, Arne Friedrich, Detering n Loew lol

    Know nothing about football
     
  25. Ger90

    Ger90 Member+

    May 13, 2016
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    that's not what anyone said. My point is you think Bayern is buying Havertz to play striker, answer is no. Lewa was already a striker when he came to Bayern, your point is moot.

    seriously no one ever said it's impossible, you really like to make up shit don't you.
     

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