Daily Mail Top 50 players ever

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PDG1978, Jun 14, 2009.

  1. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    He was excellent in the air. Generally a prolific player as well. I think only Bobby Charlton and Lampard have scored more goals than him in the English top flight among midfielders.
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1927 PuckVanHeel, Nov 21, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
    They have now published the full top 100 of retired players and (as I said earlier) I personally believe the best thing to do is to compare it with players from their own team, own era and own league (even though it's controlled for various factors - the modern day data is used commercially). Plus cross-comparing it with other sources and perspectives of course. The difference with players outside the top 100 (100-200) might also be not that big or significant.

    For fun I take FourFourTwo's greatest club teams ever list and World Soccer their list. Keep in mind that players have occasionally also played a big chunk of their career for other clubs. Say, Sinisa Mihajlovic (and in case of Puskas, Cruijff we know their Spanish years and international games count heavily). It's intriguing to see top class managers Trapattoni and Guardiola appearing in the top 25 while they were a player.


    Real Madrid (1955 - 1960)

    Puskas (2: 214,36), Santamaria (3: 212,52), Di Stefano (15: 188,68), Zarraga (16: 187,57), Marquitos (20: 185,11), Gento (36: 179,49)

    Super players at a super team (400 employees at their peak; only team who was allowed to have more than 25 squad players). 121 games unbeaten at home. Started and ended with a loss against Atletico Madrid.

    1960s AC Milan

    Trapattoni (24: 182,72)

    One of the few defensive players who can claim to have known the player Pelé inside-out, and consistently cancelled throughout the meetings.

    Leeds (1968 - 1974)

    Norman Hunter (93: 170,17)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Hunter_(footballer)

    Ajax (1965 – 1973)

    Cruijff (1: 216,06), Neeskens (78: 171,28)

    Bayern Munich (1967 - 1976)

    Paul Breitner (53: 174,76), Muller (95: 169,82), Beckenbauer (100: 169,48)

    Borussia M’gladbach (1970 - 1979)

    Herbert Wimmer (25: 182,31), Berti Vogts (61: 173,42)

    Juventus (1980 - 1986)

    Platini (71: 172,12)

    :thumbsup: I knew he wouldn't disappoint .... the player that is.

    Happel his Hamburger SV (early 80s)

    Magath (67: 172,30)

    Like Van Hanegem and Vandereycken before him, Magath was an on-field extension of the coach Happel.

    1980s Bayern Munich

    Wolfgang Kraus (31: 181,42), Dieter Hoeness (39: 179,05), Hans Pflugler (43: 177,44), Lothar Matthaus (48: 175,40), Paul Breitner (53: 174,76)

    Real Madrid (1984 - 1990)

    Hugo Sanchez (63: 173, 11), Butragueno (76: 171,42)

    Ronald Koeman has said various times that Hugo Sanchez was the toughest (direct) opponent he has played against in his career.

    Mid 1980s Everton

    Gary Stevens (26: 182,28)

    Rehhagel his Werder Bremen (1980s to 1995)

    Thomas Schaaf (28: 181,91), Neubarth (33: 181,13), Ulrich Borowka (52: 175,02)

    Not an unexpected outcome, perhaps. No nonsense defensive players on top.

    PSV Eindhoven (1985 - 1989)

    Ivan Nielsen (6: 200,20), Lerby (12: 190,14), Vanenburg (42: 177,76), Gullit (81: 171,03), Heintze (85: 170,53)

    Man marker Ivan Nielsen was vital for the Danish Dynamite, and indeed nigh impossible to properly replace for them.

    AC Milan (1987 – 1991)

    Frank Rijkaard (9: 195,57), Van Basten (11: 193,93), Gullit (81: 171,03)

    Barcelona (1988 - 1994) 'Dream Team'

    Guardiola (14: 189,31), Stoichkov (59: 173,65), Sergi (70: 172, 13)

    Stoichkov provided an irreplaceable pace and depth in the attack, next to the goals and assists.

    Red Star Belgrade late 80s to early 90s

    Mihajlovic (47: 175,87)

    After this an integral part of various Serie A teams.

    Ajax (1992 - 1996)

    Ronald de Boer (8: 198,29), Danny Blind (13: 189,31), Overmars (21: 185,00), Litmanen (23: 183,83), Frank de Boer (27: 181,94), Finidi George (41: 178,24)

    This vindicates Louis van Gaal his recent call when he named Ronald de Boer among the five best professionals he has worked with. Overmars his position is influenced by what he did later at Arsenal and Barcelona (compared with not playing) but I didn't check all players. It came along with setting some European records (at European Cup) at the time.

    Mid 90s Blackburn Rovers

    Chris Sutton (90: 170,40)

    1990s to early 00s Deportivo la Coruna ('Super Depor')

    Miroslav Dukic (77: 171,37)

    Only foreigner of Super Depor to win Don Balon award.

    Manchester United (1995 – 2001)

    Paul Scholes (35: 180,33), Gary Neville (56: 174,06), Solskjaer (62: 173,32)

    Solksjaer hanging around for so long while not representing "value in the market" (Ferguson his own words) had perhaps a reason.

    AC Milan (2002 - 2007)

    Cafu (54: 174,70), Inzaghi (96: 169,80)

    Arsenal early 00s ('Invincibles')

    Dennis Bergkamp (29: 181,59), Lauren (60: 173,63), Gilberto Silva (80: 171,08), Vieira (86: 170,49)

    See:
    http://www.goalimpact.com/2014/12/todays-chelsea-fc-against-arsenals.html

    Real Madrid 'Galacticos'

    Ronaldo (17: 186,70), Luis Figo (72: 172,04), Hierro (79: 171,08)

    Also when limited to 1996-2005 he, Guardiola and Bergkamp appear to stand out well.

    FC Barcelona (2003 - 2006)

    Deco (46: 175,90)

    The creative midfielder of that team with finesse and grit. Some pundits saw him indeed as the 'true' offensive centerpiece of the team.

    Chelsea (2003 - 2007)

    Makelele (57: 174,05)

    A specific role or position named after him is maybe not a coincidence, even if he wasn't the first to execute it in football (Desailly). It supports what Mourinho and others thought of him. He took the league by storm.


    Other teams mentioned by FFT:

    Arsenal (1930 - 1935), River Plate 1941-1947, Torino (1945 – 1949), Wolverhampton (1953 - 1960), Santos (1955 – 1968), Benfica (1959 – 1968), Tottenham (1960 - 1961), Inter Milan (1962 – 1967), Celtic (1965 – 1974), Estudiantes (1967 - 1971), Feyenoord (1968 - 1971) Independiente (1971 – 1975), Liverpool (1975 – 1984) Nottingham Forest (1977 – 1980), Flamengo (1980 - 1983), Dynamo Kiev (1985 – 1987), Marseille (1988 - 1993), Juventus (1994 - 1998), Boca Juniors (1998 – 2003)

    Quite a few probably suffer from limited data availability (including Marseille and earlier English teams), while with other teams as Juventus, perhaps Herrera's Inter Milan, it is likely to think other factors besides the individual players were 'influential' (or at least mitigate effects). Keep in mind though that this are perhaps gaps and it would at least interesting to see which squad members stand out. Maybe some of them are in the 100-200 range anyway, which cannot be too far off from place #90 or so.

    Other interesting names:

    Henrik Larsson (various clubs and leagues: #10 194,93), Yasuhiko Okudera (Koln, Werder Bremen: #22 184,40), Roberto di Matteo (#30 181,42), Andreas Moller (#38 179,15), Toninho Cerezo (#45 176,06), Wolfgang Weber (Koln: #49 175,30), Dragan Holcer (Hajduk, Stuttgart, Schalke: #68 172,20), Pavel Nedved (#55 174,26), Jens Nowotny (Leverkusen: #58 173,99), Jan Molby (Liverpool: #64 172,96), Giovane Elber (#65 172,36), Bum Kun Cha (Frankfurt, Leverkusen: #73 171,72), Frans Thijssen (Ipswich Town: #83 170,87), Wolfgang Overath (Fc Koln: #84 170,76)


    Feel free to give feedback.
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #1928 PuckVanHeel, Dec 3, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
    Sorry for the very belated addition but I'm just seeing now the difference between #100 and #260 is indeed just 8 points. It's still interesting even though there's no final answer (a definite answer - that goes further than just the average/general tendencies for fatigue and substitution effect) to how many penalty points substitutions should get, for example.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I remembered this subject with these three good posts (read above) and I accidentally came across a profile of him:

    [​IMG]
     
    Krokko repped this.
  5. wm442433

    wm442433 Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    I'm done with my Top : ''FYT's 125 Greatest Footballers'' here.

    I post it here since it's more about rankings in itself while the other thread is more about discussing a bit of eveything (which is not a complaint).


    1. Messi
    2. Pelé
    3. Maradona
    4. Cruyff
    5. Platini
    6. Di Stéfano
    7. Ronaldo
    8. Zidane
    9. Puskas
    10. Beckenbauer
    11. Van Basten
    12. Gullit
    13. C. Ronaldo
    14. Eusébio
    15. Zico
    16. Ronaldinho
    17. Rivaldo
    18. Romario
    19. Rummenigge
    20. Garrincha
    21. Tostao
    22. Kopa
    23. Didi
    24. Laudrup M.
    25. Zizinho
    26. Kubala
    27. Moreno
    28. Rivelino
    29. Rivera
    30. Suarez (Spa)
    31. Sarosi
    32. Meazza
    33. Charlton
    34. Sindelar
    35. Best
    36. Baggio
    37. Sivori
    38. Bergkamp
    39. Müller
    40. Iniesta
    41. Socrates
    42. Kaka
    43. Schiaffino
    44. Keegan
    45. Schuster
    46. Weah
    47. Henry
    48. Leônidas
    49. Friedenreich
    50. Ben Barek
    51. Scarone
    52. Jairzinho
    53. Kempes
    54. Dzajic
    55. Simonsen
    56. Blokhin
    57. Shevchenko
    58. Totti
    59. Del Piero
    60. Albert
    61. Hidegkuti
    62. Streltsov
    63. Gerson
    64. Mazzola S.
    65. Susic
    66. Pedernera
    67. Falcao
    68. Matthaüs
    69. Xavi
    70. Pirlo
    71. Netzer
    72. Mazzola V.
    73. Gren
    74. Stojkovic
    75. Riquelme
    76. Cubillas
    77. Raul
    78. Neymar
    79. Suarez (Uru)
    80. Andrade
    81. Francescoli
    82. Dalglish
    83. Figo
    84. Hagi
    85. Deyna
    86. Julinho
    87. Finney
    88. Stoichkov
    89. Careca
    90. Kocsis
    91. Charles
    92. Nedved
    93. Savicevic
    94. Neeskens
    95. Giresse
    96. Breitner
    97. Tigana
    98. Cerezo
    99. Bozsik
    100. Matthews
    101. Piendibene
    102. Rensenbrink
    103. Robben
    104. Ballack
    105. Ibrahimovic
    106. Seeler
    107. Walter
    108. Bobek
    109. Junior
    110. Ferrari
    111. Ademir
    112. Jaïr
    113. Overath
    114. Van Hanegem
    115. Erico
    116. Bebeto
    117. Orsi
    118. Butragueño
    119. Seedorf
    120. Hamrin
    121. Gento
    122. Fontaine
    123. Riva
    124. Bettega
    125. Varallo
     
    Gregoriak, comme, msioux75 and 2 others repped this.
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Really nice work with the write-ups on your page mate - that adds a nice and informative touch.

    Possibly at some stage I could see how your top 50 would change things in terms of the voting and points, but in theory maybe I should find and change my latest vote, and I guess others could have appeared or other voters might change their lists again too.

    I guess you feel that while the roles of defensive players are crucial and there have been some outstanding ones, that over football's history it has been the attacking and midfield players who have proved the best and most valuable at any given time....and that 125 isn't so many really so that you are still naming brilliant legends at the end of the list. Some of your players were partially (role and/or position during career) defenders though anyway.
     
    wm442433 repped this.
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Nice descriptions and thoughts mate. Yes, I remember you did something like that before (but not as considered perhaps)
    http://www.xtratime.org/forum/8295154-post261.html

    It are the descriptions and ideas that make it nice.
     
    wm442433 repped this.
  8. wm442433

    wm442433 Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    @PDG1978 @PuckVanHeel

    Thanks mates.

    About your remarks, PDG1978, in brief : exactly.

    PvH : I remembered also a bit about that post on xt... but did not checked it. Indeed, that was a quick post and I see that it was in 2010... I did not have the internet since a very long time back then and actually, I never cared about ranking players before that (so before having the internet and access to all of that). In the mags it was rarer to find such things back in the day and when it happened I guess that I did not mind much about the exact order in the lists, indeed. Here a bit more though.

    And yes @ PDG, fantastic work that you have completed here within this thread.
    I understand well that your work with this thread was finished at some point (and that's some years). But then it would be obviously very interesting to follow if it's continued.
    The next World Cup which will soon arrive will be interesting in that regard too ofc.
     
    comme, PuckVanHeel and PDG1978 repped this.
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    That second rep I just gave is in effect also to rep and commend again the profiles written on the webpage; I had a look a bit more closely since my other post and think the story and qualities of various players can be clearly understood from many of the write-ups.
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    To answer the question you bring up (searched for '?' to see whether there are others).

    "Bergkamp make a move to Inter Milan (did he take the train or a car or something else to join Italy ? Good question.)."

    This is something that originated when there was a bomb threat or terror threat during the 1994 World Cup. Someone (jokingly?) suggested he could blow up the airplane, and it scared the Americans (as well as Dennis too, as we knew later). The more mysterious it is, that he played fairly well against Brazil and scored a quality goal against them (as you write) after this scare. He later said, had it happened before the tournament, he wouldn't be there in the USA "like Johan in 1978"....

    Good descriptions for many/all of the players I have seen so far (also Keegan I see) and very good pointing out he was quite fast in the first half of the 1990s (think the 1994-95 injuries changed it). Besides, this is an interesting channel "Functional Soccer Skills", that includes some of the lesser players (lesser in highlights). It's without sound, so that the movements come to the fore.

    I will read your piece in totality later!!
     
  11. napolisoccer

    napolisoccer Member

    Feb 20, 2005
    Napoli
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Country:
    Italy
    Gullit number 12??? Maybe 1200.......
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes I was surprised by this too (higher than usual, and I wouldn't place him in a top 40). But it is at least consistent with wm442433 leaving out defensive players Maldini, Baresi and Rijkaard (see PDG & wm comments above). This gives more weight to the remaining players somehow, who gave the spark to bring Milan to the top.

    From previous comments by him I already knew that he felt (and magazines felt, in his perception) that Maldini, Baresi and later Desailly resorted to too many fouls and errors around ~1995. In his lengthy discussion of Weah back then, who is indeed rated highly here too.

    Many other Milan icons Rivera, Schiaffino, Shevchenko, Kaka etc. feature in this article.

    Regardless of the placements, very well done and eventually I'll read it all!
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That said however (something wm442433 doesn't mention, and with focus on the football understandable), I do recognize Guerin Sportivo their point that Ruud was the first black European to lift a big trophy as captain, and also the first black European (that is: born and raised in Europe, so not Eusebio, Coluna nevermind how good they were - even though Gullit his mother is white) to be seen as the world's best - leaving aside whether that's right or wrong. That is a landmark moment, and today needed more than ever.... (Can I say??)
     
  14. wm442433

    wm442433 Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    One more time, thanks for the feedbacks.

    I don't remember what I have posted exactly on that matter (I'll chek later). Let's continue on this via PM maybe? Also I 'd have some more precisions to ask to you about Bergkamp (next week maybe?).
    .
    .
    .
    Yes, I'd have him lower finally... 1225th!
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    OK, for now (very brief search) found back this about the situation of around 1995 (post 1993 anyway).


    "Maldini who for my part was downgrading in 95, 96, was less good than before. Still an examplary player with both Milan and the Nazionale, making all his possible to keep the appearances but less performant, with uncomfortable situations in his two teams.
    [...]
    Of course, at the time, we could not know that he would have this fantastic "second career", but Maldini was downgrading in '96."

    -------------------------------------

    "The problem with that match against Milan is that Milan had bought Weah (I mean the transfer was done) before the semi-finals (also Ricardo played injured, PSG had really no chance to make the final).

    About assists, it was not much the game of Weah in France but the stuff is that he always held 1 or 2 defenders as the opponents were aware of anything could happen with him. So he was a excellent pivot in one sense, at least he was a constant menace (even if he "choosed his games").
    One of the most skilled players ever imo that said. One of the few who can compare with Pelé in some gestures. Or Eusébio, but faster (25 years later, well). He was very powerful too. Also I don't know the exact number, but on his 18 goals in D1 with Monaco (in 90-91?) I wonder if it's not 10-12 that are headers. There was a video of his 18 goals, but can't find it again.

    These PSG-Milan, Milan-PSG , the pre-matches were a bit special. Probably Milan was superior but with that transfer it was over before the start for PSG. And out of the fact that Ricardo was injured, Baresi could make every fouls he wanted without being worried by the referee (as usual) too. But that's another story."


    So I thought in terms of logical reasoning it made a bit sense, combined with that e.g. Maldini, Nesta, Baresi, Rijkaard, Desailly are left out too in your 125 (saw your funny remark about Stanley Matthews on 100!). That in turn gives more weight to remaining Milan strongholds, with some winks and smiles, including Savicevic and other included Milan icons indeed.
    And of course (which is implied/said at some places) that defending with numbers (including the likes of Desailly as protection, and taking blame when out of position) is 'easier' than defending with few and with large spaces.
     
  16. wm442433

    wm442433 Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    OK (yes about Maldini I think that it was before all in his head since Milan now relied more on the exploits of Weah, Baggio, Savicevic so at least one had to be on his day VS the tactically dominant team that they used to be, this even ''independently'', if we want, of the Dutch trio + no Sacchi anymore but it's the same idea + Baresi arriving at an end so Maldini maybe felt a bit alone and had to take more responsabilities, maybe too much suddenly, including in Nt... I'm quite sure that he already explained that himself btw, already a bit at the time and also once he had retired. In his own words it would be clearer surely and the definitive proof of what was his state of mind at this time. I'll try to find what I can find and I'll PM it if you want).
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    @wm442433

    Yes I have now read it all and it is very well done, and the basic ideas/gest can be understood from it after reading in totality. Also that 125 players is not many anyway.

    As an addition (not correction): you mention Gullit won the 1997 FA Cup final as player-manager but did not select himself to play in the final, and that is right. As the 1996-97 season review (the video) says, he suffered an ankle injury, tackle from behind, that effectively ended his playing career immediately. On top of that, he found it more difficult to combine both tasks while playing. The 1995-96 review shows some fierce tackles that went unpunished (no yellow).

    Here the ankle injury is mentioned (damaged ligaments):
    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-break-up-blues-for-ward-and-sturridge-1270755.html
    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gullit-gets-mandela-invite-1.62968

    I can sort of get why that ~1997-ish Chelsea period is still remembered because the foreign invasion brought a breath of fresh air and you can see the players enjoyed what they were doing (without 'acting' their joy imho, you can see the fresh vibrancy somehow).

    Also interesting that you see Weah as the last great African player rather than the beginning... Nice article.
     

Share This Page