Cunningham

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Noah Dahl, Oct 9, 2002.

  1. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United, anywhere Pulisic plays
    Aug 3, 2000
    Proxima Centauri
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Jeff wasn't good enough for the Nats before this season. This year he is marginal at best. B.L. took a look at him and sent him home.

    I think the biggest thing Cunningham lacks is a soccer mind. He makes very poor decisions at time. I don't think you can fix this at his age. He is damn fast and a great dribbler. But he doesn't know when to pass and when to dribble. He doesn't know WHERE to pass either. I was pretty high on him before, but then I saw him with the US Nats and he was awful.
     
  2. Foosinho

    Foosinho New Member

    Jan 11, 1999
    New Albany, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ditto. He can have a horrible game - and often does - but still manages to get a goal and an assist. It's unreal. He's an absolute black hole, makes horrid decisions, and turns the ball over nearly every time he touches it.

    In fact, I can remember at least twice in the first half last night where he eschewed the open overlap (Garcia in one case, McBride in the other) to attempt to beat 3 defenders on the dribble at the wide edge of the box. How pointless/stupid is that?!?!

    He's even worse when he manages to beat someone on the dribble - now he's "got his swagger on" and almost without fail tries to dribble the ball all the way into the net.

    He lounges around in an offside position, which means when we win the ball back we can't take advantage of our blazing speed and dump the ball behind the defenders.

    He might be the Crew's leading scorer, but he's our third best forward.
     
  3. CUS

    CUS New Member

    Apr 20, 2000
    How does Cunny fit into the whole pinata/punching bag role ;)
     
  4. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    How do you practice that role? Are there drills you think?
     
  5. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Eeek!!

    Well, given what the great Crew fan Foos says here, it sounds like Jeff really HASN'T changed that much since the Dallas game I analyzed over a year ago.

    You know, folks say stuff like, "Jeff deserves a shot at the Nats" or "He should get a callup" or "He needs to get some minutes."

    But why? WHY?? If the guy by his on field peformance shows at the MLS level that he doesn't have a clue about what it takes to be a national team forward, then giving him a precious camp slot is a complete waste of limited time and limited resources.
     
  6. Topo

    Topo Member

    Feb 15, 2001
    Cunningham definitely deserves a shot. He has earned with his consistent play in MLS.

    Whether he capitalizes on that spot is up to him (and circumstances and luck).

    I think he could be good national team forward in the near future.
     
  7. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You and Foos are both on the same page of the Hymnal, and it's a righteous verse.

    The biggest problem, to me, is that he seems immune to coaching. Fitzgerald drove himself nuts trying to get Jeff to use his skill and natural abilities in a team concept. Andrulis makes veiled statements about how Cunny "needs to be more involved in the flow" and crap like that.

    To no avail. His work rate remains abysmal, he does very little off the ball, and still thinks he can just blow by everybody and that teammates exist soley to get him the rock.

    But it was always OK with everybody because he was "young" and would "mature".

    Well he turned 26 this year (yes, you read that right - 26). The brash, hell-bent youngster routine is wearing thin.

    As a starting Nats forward, he is light years behind the current guys, and the next group (Twellman, Casey, Thorrigton, Quaranta, Buddle et al) are passing him by as well. My posit that he has a possible future as a role player with the USA is predicated on Bruce Arena being able to get him to do what he's told.

    The Bruce is, um, very convincing that way :)
     
  8. Foosinho

    Foosinho New Member

    Jan 11, 1999
    New Albany, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's why I was advocating his call-up 2 years ago. I figured he'd mature into the type of player he can be.

    But he hasn't, and I've resigned myself to accepting the fact that he won't. If I was Crew management, I'd see if I could trade him for a central defender and stock in his new manager's antacid of choice, and go with Buddle & McBride with Washington in the wings and a young draft pick as an understudy.
     
  9. fidlerre

    fidlerre Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 10, 2000
    Central Ohio
    thorrington? huhhh? he is a midfielder and is just holding his own in the 3rd division in england...i wouldnt say he is passing jeff by.

    back on subject.

    yes he is frustrating as hell, but he does create in a game and it amazes you, considering the amount of times you wonder just what the hell he was thinking when he tries to take on 4 defenders on his own.

    does he frustrate? yes. does he produce goals and assists? yes. does he deserve a shot with the national team in the coming months? i think so, but i am not the bruce so i dont make the call.
     
  10. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    John is playing more as a winger, is scoring goals and a lot of people in England who've seen him lately think he's the cat's ass.

    Personally, I've NEVER seen him play, so I have to take other people's word for it until Huddersfield Town games start airing on FSW.
     
  11. fidlerre

    fidlerre Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 10, 2000
    Central Ohio
    i am not disagreeing. i just found it odd to include him. i have not seen him play in england but i remember watching him last summer when he played in the equador friendly at ccs and he seemed okay. he was doing really well last season for HT but recently i have not seen him produce all that well...perhaps his form is a bit off. regardless, the future seems bright.
     
  12. Noah Dahl

    Noah Dahl New Member

    Nov 1, 2001
    Pottersville
    Stunning/Magisterial

    Well, I think I've heard you employ that bit of cleverness a dozen times. "Apples and oranges" now officially beats "My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" for meaningfulness. Glad I could do my part.

    For the record, there was a debate about Reyna's effectiveness in creating goals. I described one of his contributions in this way

    [/i]"against Mexico - he got a nice second assist on a very big goal."

    Which wasn't good enough for you. You countered with:

    [/i]"He torched Morales with a stunning touch line carry, single-handedly starting a very dangerous attack that resulted in key first goal."

    Torched? Stunning? He beat a guy on the wing. A pretty standard second assist, but for context.

    Then on this thread, you described Cunningham's assist like so...

    [/i]"he got an assist in that game, with a skillful chip to Buddle"

    Whereas I saw it more like:

    [/i]"...chaos, then Cunningham stopped the game dead with three Dallas defenders in wall formation staring at the ball at his feet. He casually lifted the ball over their heads and right onto Buddle's for the last minute tying goal."

    I thought the comparison was pretty funny. Sure I may have laid it on thick in response to your telling of the Reyna er, assist. But we're both guilty of purple prose. A sentimental, subjective act. But we're fans - I'm not denying it.

    What I think is disingenuous is pretending to base your opinion on your supposedly objective (hah) analysis of one game from last season. Surely you've seen more than that or you wouldn't go on at length in this discussion.
     
  13. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Re: Stunning/Magisterial

    OK, mea culpa on the purple prose.

    As far as the single game, you have to ask yourself, is this a "typical" performance of Jeff Cunningham?

    Reading the posts of some of the knowledgable Crew fans here, who have seen Jeff a lot more than I have (for me, twice in person, and half dozen for so times in TV), it seems that the Dallas game was quite typical.

    If so, then a national team callup seems a low probability event for JC.
     
  14. Noah Dahl

    Noah Dahl New Member

    Nov 1, 2001
    Pottersville
    More for Karl

    What I also find disingenuous (my word of the day) is your description of the duties of an "international" level striker. IMO, you've tailored them to fit Brian McBride -- even to the extent of diminishing goal production.

    Brian had a great World Cup. But if he didn't score two goals, we wouldn't be saying so.

    My point is there is not one true way to employ a forward - despite your sacred Cruyff quote, which is funny coming from him. It depends, obviously, on your team, your objective and strategy. Was Romario international quality, Karl? I think Brazil and Barcelona would have benched him if he didn't score and create goals - despite all his defensive effort.

    Cunningham may not ever work for Bruce's system, but a lot of coaches would prefer to field a gamebreaker over a smart worker - someone who can more consistently create magic when it's really needed. If you watched the playoffs, the Crew would NEVER have gotten past the Quakes without Cunningham's brilliance. Without Cunningham's assists!
     
  15. Noah Dahl

    Noah Dahl New Member

    Nov 1, 2001
    Pottersville
    But just to catch up...

    1. I defer to the Crew fans too, Karl - but would personally take Cunningham over everyone from Duncan Oughton back. And I wonder how they can be so ungrateful when Jeff beat San Jose. Ask San Jose!

    2. I also have to agree with those who think we have too many options and too much talent to worry too much about Jeff Cunningham's national team future.

    3. And I'm not saying Bruce should not be coach. Bruce should be coach! Bruce should be coach! All right already?

    4. I disagree with people who suggested Jeff should've dumped more balls OUT of the box and out to Garcia last night. He was almost beating those last defenders, he was terrifying them, and he had a good chance of winning a penalty. Garcia played fine, but a team that so badly needs a goal needs a guy like Cunningham with the confidence to take it on himself. You had far too many aimless chips into the box and crosses sent to no one at the far side of the six.

    5. And I resent suggestions that Cunningham's supporters are simply duped by flashy moves and shiny objects. Give me a break.
     
  16. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Re: More for Karl

    You know, here's a headline that could have been written after the world cup final.

    "Brazil Clinches Cup After Ronaldo's Tireless Defensive Work Creates Turnover that Leads to 2nd Goal"

    Not a lot of drama in that headline, but it pretty much sums up the fatal blow to Deutschland.

    My description of good forward play would also apply to a Josh Wolff, who is a manic defender and makes great defense-stretching runs, or Landon Donovan (despite his up and down post Cup MLS Season).

    Heck, it even applies to a fit Clint Mathis who will go balls out on defense -- sometimes a little TOO intensely.

    But, yes, the reality is that Brian McBride IS a BETTER international forwad than Jeff Cunningham; I think that is fairly indisuputable now.

    And while there's no doubt JC has been productive for the Crew, that is simply not enough for the Nats. It takes much more than that.
     
  17. paulo

    paulo Member

    Feb 13, 2002
    Atlanta
    gotta go with the argentinian legend here... no soccer mind. Not that you can sum up a person's career or playing style in one example but, I recall a play last night second half, JC has the ball heading towards the box (on Crew's left wing). He had no one in front of him (Revs defenders chasing from the center) as he entered the corner of the box. Instead of pushing the ball inside with a quick touch and ripping a shot near or far post. He tries to thread a pass between three defenders to a trailing Crew member (Garcia?). Ball gets close to Garcia but the three Revs defenders who were chasing from the center close down on Garcia as he tries the "one-timer". Result ball cleared. I think my recollection is accurate. In my opinion, a bad decision by cunningham resulted in not even putting a shot on frame. The coaches should pull up the tape and ask what is he going to do next time. I can't believe that Freddy Garcia has so much leverage with his teammates that he demands the ball even when he is covered. Valderrama is another story.

    I know its corny but for JC: "you gotta know when to pass to him, know when to chip over them, know when to rip a shot, know when to run" (with apologies to kenny rogers)
     
  18. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Anyone willing to pour through the stats to see the GD of being a man down? I believe you would be surprised to find the number isn't that big. Of course, you will rarely see a player take so lazy as to completely take himself out of the game.

    As to your suggestion that a forward who is lazy won't actually score much to begin with. So much the better. Then we can focus on actual goals.

    Of course a foward's "job" is more than scoring goals (and assists, I will add), but all I care about is his overall benefit to the team. If he sucks in a some areas, but can score or create buckets of goals, then he's almost certainly more productive than a "complete" player who doesn't score that much. The fact that Cruyff said "more than scoring" also points to what the main job is.
     
  19. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    Re: Re: More for Karl


    No one can dispute that foward defensive play has value. However, Brazil is so successful not because they have the best defending strikers!

    McBride is indisputably a better international player because JC hasn't had a chance. I'm not necessarily arguing that he should have a chance given the line in front of him, but I refuse to believe that any good MLS player can't make it for the Nats until they have been given enough minutes. From my perspective, JC's biggest problem is that there are, in fact, more productive players at the MLS level.
     
  20. nowhere

    nowhere New Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    Re: Re: More for Karl

    How is that the reality? He hasn't played enough to judge him fairly with McBride.
     
  21. eagleterp

    eagleterp New Member

    Jun 6, 2002
    washington, dc
    fwiw, i've never really seen jeff cunningham play, but the player you're describing sounds a lot like the same criticisms thrown towards clint mathis.

    i'm intrigued to say the least.
     
  22. Warzycha

    Warzycha Member

    Apr 22, 2002
    Denver, CO
    Bruce was in Columbus last night to get a first hand view of all the hopefuls, ie:Twellman, West, Ralston, Martino, Buddle, Adin Brown, and yes Cunningham. He is definitely a threat to score at any moment, but his play is very sporadic. He goes on scoring streaks which get a lot more pub then his droughts. He wasn't even starting for the Crew mid season, because he was ice cold. As he does, he got hot and tore up the league in the final third of the season. Against San Jose, he used his speed and ability to go at players to get to the end-line and then find open teamates in the box. The result, a sweep over the defending champs. He assisted on all four goals in that series. At least two of them were due entirely to his effort. Now, against the Revs, instead of going end-line wide of the goal to be a set up man, he is going right at the goal, even though the Revs are putting 8 in the box, all the while, ignoring open teamates. The result, the Crew hasn't scored in the last 190 minutes and they are one tie away from elimination. When Jeff is hot, he can start for the National Team. When he is cold, he is more harmful then beneficial to his team. I have always heard that players like McBride do better with the Nat's than with their club because Bruce does a better job of defining their roles for a given game then their club coaches do. Perhaps that guidance from Bruce could keep Jeff more consistant! To answer the question as to who is the better forward, McBride or Cunningham, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Jeff goes at the defender and creates his own opportunity and doesn't defend worth a damn. McBride is a finisher and does all the blue collar work off the ball for an 11 man team to be successful!
     
  23. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
  24. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Agreed, scoring is the main job. There are critical subsidiary jobs, however. A forward who can't hold the ball, check, make combinations, and defend to cause turnovers in a dangerous area of the field is NOT fulfilling the job requirements.

    Frankly, I don't think it's "either/or" and as a McBride proved in his performance, it wasn't for him either.

    True, Brazil didn't succeed because they had the best defending strikers -- though it sure helped -- but because Scolari junked the traditional Brazilian 4-4-2, for a high defensive pressure 3-5-2, where forwards and d-mids pressed the defense HARD, and only Ronaldhino was absolved of defensive responsibilities -- though he basically he had to work his butt off to support EVERY ball in the offensive half of the field. The high pressure defense on the part of the forwards was clearly one key piece to the puzzle.

    As for McBride v. JC, I think you have a chicken and egg problem. Maybe McBride has gotten more chances because he was better to BEGIN with, not because JC HASN'T had his chances. More chances, more minutes, more opportunties are unlikely, since he is in his mid-20s, to make JC a BETTER international level player.

    HIs play is what it is, and it can be OBSERVED, watching club play.
     
  25. Bruce S

    Bruce S Member+

    Sep 10, 1999
    Cunningham has looked very bad in this series. He has had chance after chance and done zero with them.
     

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