That's the same for most leagues. There aren't guarantees in anything. We can just hope that as they said, they've studied and research extensively other leagues and past success/failures to have come up with the right formula. Just like I don't know for sure that it will be a success without going through some growing pains (every leagues get those), you don't know either that it will crash and burn either. So far, the news that's been provided to us points out to a good start, starting with the quality of the hiring for those running the league. The CSA being a major stakeholder in this is also a non-negligeable factor in being optimistic
Yes it is..........but I thought maybe you knew something about the CFL structure that was different because you pointed out that CPL would be run "...like the CFL more or less" You are, again, correct that there are no guarantees.....including that you can't guarantee that a well researched and studied plan leads to a successful business. A national hero in the land of my birth wrote this: “The best laid schemes o'mice an' men Gang aft a-gley.” It is translated in more common (proper Queen's) English as The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry. Here you are absolutely correct.....and I have stated several times that what I type here are just my opinions (based on, I believe, a wee bit of business acumen combined with decades of experience watching sporting events/teams/leagues in this country....with a primary focus on soccer). We were on a roll there with 3 great points of agreement....and you go an spoil it (lol ). I think the start has been abysmal and we are now at a point that we have to seriously wonder if they can get this thing off the ground (properly) in 2019. A year from now teams would have to be in training camps for the start of the 2019 season in April of that year. At this very moment, we have 2 teams and a bunch of rumours. The two teams are in good shape....they have...well they have a stadium each....neither has announced any staff or players....so they are "teams" in the sense they have an owner and a stadium....and they are (by far) the most advanced of the teams. Before those camps open a year from now they have to identify, approve and admit 6 or 8 additional teams....some of those teams will have to arrange for stadiums to, either, be built (Halifax seems to be the most advanced here, suburban Vancouver the least)....or renovated (the place the Saskatoon guys have identified most recently as their preferred temporary home is a bit of a mess) or leased. Obviously if 2 of those 6 or 8 teams were Ottawa and Edmonton, the stadium issue would be less but that still only makes a 4 team league and neither of those teams has committed to the league (heck one of them folded their professional operations and one of the criticisms they had about their city was the lack of a suitable venue)....... .......then once the other 6 - 8 teams have signed up, written their cheques and identified/sorted out their stadium....they all would be at the same place as the current two.....just needing to find staff and players....then they can sell some tickets. The "start" has been awful and after several years of "making sure they got it right"...the only way to launch in 2019 would be to do a complete rush job (which is the opposite of doing it right). They have just run out of time. We are back to agreeing....i am a long term fan of Paul. This is a very good thing.....but I can assure you that they will not have carte blanche authority to just invest members money (most of their revenue comes from registration fees of players across the country) in something that is draining them (if it got to that stage...we clearly disagree on that so no need to re-hash and break our agreement momentum). Their involvement lends an element of stability......but there will be limits on it.
Remember MLS did the same thing. After 6 years a handful of billionaires had to bail it out. Hopefully the founders of the league can do a better job of containing costs.
Like the CFL, there will be a salary cap, something NASL doesn't have last time I checked. The CFL did have bad stretch but it hard to argue that the league got it's act together and is for the most part well managed. Attendance (higher than MLS), TV rights, sponsorship, viewership (higher than MLS) indicates that it's a major league that's working well. At least, CPL is more real than NASL #NASL announces cancellation of 2018 season: https://t.co/gVzxlciWep pic.twitter.com/10bD9ciSS0— NASL (@naslofficial) February 27, 2018 Of course there are no guarantees but at least I can nuance while you keep hammering on your negative views. I said many times that I'm not liking Fath as an owner. If there was to be a weakest link among CPL owners, the Fath Brothers would be it. They are a clear step down from the other owners. Since you aren't an expert at starting a league from scratch and understanding the sheer complexity of such an undertaking, I'll take your comment for what it's worth Again, you're no expert on building a league from scratch. Beirne said that building rosters and signing players comes last which makes sense. Makes no sense to sign players now. CPL ownership were already scouting players around the country since last year and already have list and data on those players which Clanachan recently confirmed. You're conveniently avoiding avoiding talking about Saskatoon ownership which has been revealed and is right up there quality-wise with deep pockets. Halifax management group is known granted the money behind the team has not been revealed. the SEA group said they would spend against the cap. BCFC, which is linked to the Surrey group was trademarked by a financial firm in Downtown Vancouver. They are linked to Rob Friend, who publicly said he was pursuing a Fraser Valley team. The Calgary team linked to the very wealthy Southern Family? I do notice that you tend to purposely avoid addressing the positive of the league, but that's ok, keep playing devil's advocate pop up and modular stadiums can be built in very short amount of time. The Saskatoon owners actually pointed out a few stadiums that he visited in Europe as the preferred option. It makes sense to not spend $200M+ on permanent soccer stadiums that early in the league's existence. Empire Field was built in 3 months for $14.4M. This was the home of the Vancouver Whitecaps while BC Place was being renovated They have time to secure land and build a modular stadium. There's no mess in Saskatoon. While they are talking to the city to get land downtown Saskatoon, they will renovate an existing stadium, I don't get why you're calling that a mess. Seems that anything that isn't MLS-USL is a mess to you. The league's logic has been very sound so far. Securing land and dealing with municipalities is the hardest part, not construction of the stadium. Try some patience You don't know what's going on and you don't know how far ahead they are in staff hiring and targeting/evaluating players. They are way ahead of what you think so we'll leave it at that The more I read you, the more you're just reacting because you just don't know what's going on. I prefer them making announcements when everything is ready than having to backtrack later like MLS had to do. 2018 would have been "rushed" but they opted for 2019 instead. There's no rush here. Says you...who have no experience at being involved in starting a league from scratch. As a member of a supporter group, the league took the time to explain to all the groups the sheer complexity of starting this and lots of us who were as impatient and uninformed as you are right now, took a breather and view things differently. It's a colossal tasks just like what MLS had to go through, so I'll take your observations for what it is He's the major reason for having quality ownership, sponsors and investors at the table. He's very well known by the business community due to his time at TFC. If it would have been anyone else, I'd be agreeing to more of your skeptic comments. I can't speculate on the level of investment they have with the league, all I know is that it significant and they are a major partner. That helps bring quality owners, broadcasters, sponsors and serious investors at the table on top of what Paul Beirne could bring to the league on his own. It shows the seriousness of the league and that it will be professionally managed and they expect nothing less from team owners. That point was central in Montagliani's message when he started the project. They will be extra picky on ownership hence my apprehension of Fath as the sole owner of Edmonton.
By 6 years you mean 1 or 2, and by handful, you mean a couple and a couple corporations. MLS launched with 10 teams, but three were league owned and HSG owned two teams - leaving 6 investor/operators and two league investors (Alan Rothenberg and the Japanese company Dentsu). In 1998, AEG exercised its option for a team in Chicago adding to its Colorado Rapids holding, and Anschutz acquaintance Ken Horowitz came on board. However - and I forget the timeline - MetroMedia got out of NY/NJ, Soros (I think) got out of DC, someone got out of Los Angeles with AEG picking up all three of those teams operations. By the end of 2000, there were only four operator/investors for 12 teams, after contraction in January, 2001 it was 10 and three. Only three original investors bailed - and Ken Horowitz was eventually bought out.
Yep....5 years in a row with a declining average attendance. The CFL is a league that is constantly (and I am going back to the days when an Argo ticket was harder to come by than a Leaf ticket) having to re-figure things out. Right now it has financial issues in BC, Toronto (although new ownership makes them less susceptible to their attendance problems) and Montreal. They are, as you note, a great TV product for TSN....fulfilling their cancon requirements and bringing ratings from, at least, 2 tv markets every game. But, to be clear, my comments were never meant to be negative on the CFL (as I said, I have a long history watching it lurching from crisis to crisis and finding a way to survive) nor was it any comparison to MLS (why do you feel the need to do that?) I was just asking you what was unique about their ownership structure....and the answer is "nothing really". that is the sort of snide remark that makes you look like you are always looking to start an argument. If you think my comments are worthless....it is simple, just don't read them...or don't respond to them. In this one, I expressed an opinion that the start has been awful...that is all I said....I stand by it. You are right, I have no expertise in starting a league....but I have exactly the same level of experience in that as the people doing it .....very few people in the world have experience launching a league. That said, I agree that signing players is the last piece of the puzzle (although in this league I think it is the second last piece because I don't think too too many people will buy tickets to this league until they see some names that they will be watching)....my point was that the time they are burning picking cities/owners (or if you want to express it negatively ....finding owners/cities) is cutting into the time that they should be devoting to that last bit. You and I know very little about Joe Belan's financial strength and/or his commitment to the league.....so what is the point of discussing it? What we know is that he is an I-banker who has had some success and he has a soccer background....those are good things.....but don't go pretending you know what his financial strength is or what percentage of that he will commit to this league. What we do know is that there has been no announcement of any franchise being signed up or any money paid to the league for that franchise....so, yes, at this stage Joe and his Saskatoon qualify as a fairly advanced "rumoured" team....nothing more. Again....we have no way of knowing what their financial strength is or their ability to spend against whatever cap is set up....so, there we go. What we know about Halifax is that they are further advanced on a really cool stadium....what I have said in the past about Halifax is that I am weirdly optimistic that this team (and Ottawa if they join) would be attendance leaders in this league....I am just not sure what that means. Yes they go up pretty fast....who said otherwise? I believe the Halifax stadium was approved in June of 2017 by the city and they thought it could be ready with 3 or 4 months of summer construction in either September or October. (for readers that are not following this that closely, that was put off to spring of 2019 when the league shelved plans to open in 2018.....the rationale was why spend the money and build it in 2018 if there was going to be no use for it). But that is still 3 or 4 months...and time is ticking along.....that is all my point was...yes Halifax (as I said) is further along but none of the other potential pop up stadium sites has even settled on a location....once you have done that you need municipal approval to build your pop up....that took ~1 year in Halifax. Yep...same point. Assuming they do not face any delays/challenges in getting municipal approval....maybe. I referred simply to the last temporary location they have identified as being a bit of a mess (eg a physical one that needs a lot of clean up prep to turn it into even a temporary stadium). This is the part of Prairieland Park that they are proposing to use for 2 years while they negotiate and build a pop up on city owned land in downtown (this 2 year temp use should serve as a hint as how long that takes BTW). How could that be....i never bring them into these discussions. Yay, we are agreeing again.....so far we have: 2 approved teams with stadiums 1 potential league switching team with a stadium 1 potential league switching team that could be revived but does not like it's stadium 1 potential new team that has gotten past the hard part with the city and can build it's pop up when they are ready (presumably after they agree to join the league). 1 potential new team that is trying to negotiate with the city for use of city land to build a pop up but in their own actions indicate that is a two year process. 2 - 4 other cities of undetermined name/location/progress that may or may not have started that process of finding a spot in their city to start the hard part of negotiating with the city. But yes, suggesting there is now a time crunch is silly It might create some buzz for the league if the General Managers of the two approved teams started to talk about how their teams might look. Of course, it might create some buzz if there were general managers of the two approved teams. and now, I think, 2019 is also rushed. respectfully disagree. The only difference (on this point) between you and I is that I always new it was complex. There are a lot of things I have never done in life (launch a league, perform brain surgery, fly a space ship..etc etc) that I know to be very complex. They have been so complex that it has taken them much longer than they thought to get to this point.....and at this point 2019 is a real challenge (one that, as I said, may not be doable). I am a big fan....you don't need to convince me....he is no miracle worker.
What we need, now that the attention-dominating Olympics are over, is for the league to make the announcements and the teams to get up and running and go forward with staff signings, player signings, stadium leases, ticket sales, etc. If it isn't soon then I think that you are correct in your assessment that a 2019 launch becomes a rush. If they go now then I think there's still just enough time.
Dully noted. I might continue to quote said opinions as you tend to pass them as fact. To the benefit of other, it's fair that I give a counter argument so others can make up their mind. I'll stick to the facts and keep in mind that they are just opinions, not fact They aren't wasting "time". They had 6 teams guaranteed for 2018 but preferred to start a full season in 2019 (right thing to do) instead than a half season. They have 8 teams guaranteed for 2019, what they said is that they might add team #9 and #10 as early as this year. It's being evaluated to see the level of readiness. If it's not this year, it will be for season 2020. No we won't discuss it, not interested into nitpicking at this point. It's your opinion, we'll leave it at that opinion. Things are much more advanced behind the scenes. You didn't know that he was one of the owners who made a presentation to the CSA regarding CPL as early as May 2017. He was involved in the league at a much earlier stage. We'll leave it at "your opinion" Indeed, we don't know the financial strength of who's paying for the team. Unless Montagliani and Beirne are liars and misrepresenting the league, which they haven't done so far, it's more likely that the owner(s) fit what the league is looking for. You can have your doubts but I'm going with the official statement over your opinion. Be patient, it's gonna happen -Mike Babcock Last time I checked, we had very competent project managers and construction firms in this country. an opinion, "seems" was the clue Repeating again but the league were ready for 6 teams for 2018 half season and are ready for 8 teams for the full 2019. They are exploring the possibility of adding 2 more as early as 2019 depending on the level of readiness. Try some patience, announcements are coming It`s coming, I`ve seen logos and some kits already. It`s more advance than you realize. Not according to the league. 2018 would have been rushed. See? Trying to pass an opinion as fact again... What's your source on your claim that 2019 is a challenge? It's your opinion. The league is going ahead with the 2019 start date. Announcement are coming. Getting TFC this over for so long with the sheer mediocrity of that organization for so long is beyond being a "miracle worker", it's magic at this point
^OK...let's leave it at that....so the fact is they had 6 teams lined up and ready for 2018 but chose to delay to 2019 and they already have 8 guaranteed teams for 2019 but have chosen not to announce. Got it. Have the 8 guaranteed teams for 2019 all got their stadium plans sorted out then?
What is your source for that? The league hasn't officially announced anything so far beyond Hamilton and Winnipeg. They may very well start in 2019. They may have 10 or even 20 teams lined up and ready to go with stadia, ownership groups, fan clubs, and cheer leaders. Until they announce something firm, however, how are your thoughts on the matter any more factual than anyone else's?
The league itself and any media mentioning CPL It's coming Fair enough, I know more since i'm part of the supporter group for Toronto but short of an official press conference announcing all the team, the league already said many time publicly, in the media and website that they are launching in 2019. That's more fact than just giving opinions on why it won't happen.
The league says that it will start with minimum 8 teams and up to 10 for 2019. I don't know the details on stadiums but we've been guaranteed 8 for 2019. Unless that league is lead by pure incompetents (which doesn't seem to be the case), the 8 guarantee clubs should be logically stadium ready for 2019.
Almost none of what the league has said has been official. It has been statements offered during interviews, rumours, and tweets. You seem to be willing to overlook it when the league's (unofficial) announcements don't come to pass and yet to insist vigorously that things the league claims (unofficially) for the future will certainly come true. You may be right and I certainly hope the reality is something close to what you anticipate. Until the league makes an actual announcement, however, it's all speculation and I can understand how not everyone shares your optimism on all the things the league says will happen.
A mess in montagliani's league is looking well! It will renovate a major league from scratch. Beirne said he started pursuing a colossal group of investment rosters. They are launching that league from his opinion. The sea was trademarked. Cpl ownership which is linked to rob and beirne could bring quality that i'm conveniently avoiding. There are liars and uninformed investors at least for 2019. I do notice that you keep playing with deep pockets. Halifax management have time and they are exploring a major league something. Fair enough? I do notice less league already! Securing land and research players now is hard and uninformed. Seems they have time. They don't have land. They dont have addressing. The do have your observations and doubts. That is the hardest link. Go cpl and go hardest.
There must be a name for someone who responds persistently and at times passive aggressively to EVERY SINGLE POST on a particular thread.
The name is Robert Borden. You can be Robert Borden too, using this wonderful Robert Borden post generator here: http://botnik.org/apps/writer/?source=a4727779be2810e67ce6586a5f6ee2a1 It is an autocorrect keyboard but the only words allowed are once used by Robert Borden on this page!
Or they could be very competent and not meet their targets. I think I am understanding the fundamental problem in our communications. You believe what the league is saying to you 100% I don't. It is not that I think they are lying....just sometimes people don't hit the targets they set. So you start off with believing 100% in the statement "we will launch in 2019 with 8 teams" so everything else (stadiums, financial strength, etc etc) has to be true to make that statement 100% fact. I accept that they fully intend to launch with 8 - 10 teams in 2019.....but looking objectively at where they are at just now I just don't think they will get there. Could they get there...possibly.....could they launch in 2018 with 6 teams....possibly but that would not be ideal would it. Could they delay until 2020....that would also seem possible. Could they, even, just say "we tried but could not do it" and scrap plans altogether...that is possible but (i think) highly unlikely at this point. So your belief that they will absolutely will launch with 8 teams leads in 2019 leads you to the statement that they must have their stadiums in order because well how else would they launch. Let's (cause I know you like this) talk about facts. Hamilton - stadium in order Winnipeg - stadium in order Halifax - stadium in order Those we know about...so yes, if Halifax actually joins we know there are 3 stadiums sorted out. Saskatoon....still have not negotiated the deal to put a pop up stadium on city owned land downtown and have identified a potential temporary (2 year) home. It is privately owned and needs work....no lease signed and no work commenced. But, yes, if they became an official member of the league tomorrow then they could get a stadium ready by 2019. Ottawa....any time they are ready to announce switching leagues then they would also be stadium ready. Calgary.....McMahon stadium may just be the worst stadium in the country....but it is ready, so if that rumour is true..(unlike Ottawa/Saskatoon/Halifax it is a very thin rumour) you could add them to the list. If the rumour about the show jumping people is true then you could put a pop up stadium on their land.....but that really gets away from the other vision of the league of being urban....putting a stadium on the very very southern edge of Calgary. Moncton......I keep saying people suggesting Moncton but I have never seen an ownership group associated with that rumour (so it is one step back from even Calgary) so yes they are stadium ready....if they have an owner. Who is the 8th team? Edmonton? what stadium would they play in in 2019? the much maligned 5k seat Clarke stadium? I guess that could work. If there was an owner stepping up to replace the old owners. There is your 8....but you see what happened......because no one else is stadium ready (or even can be) a launch in 2019 is forcing the hand to pick teams based on a stupid criteria like "is there any kind of stadium to play in" ....not "is it the right owner" or "is it the right market" or the really bizarre one "will people show up"........that is "rushing" it. As someone who does want this to succeed, I would much prefer a delay to 2020 than that approach. Note: in the above (to get to 8, I included Edmonton and Moncton.......both lack any identified (or even rumoured) ownership group as far as I know....but that is kinda the point).
^Sorta hit post too fast there.....to summarize, it goes back to earlier in that last post but everything has to go perfect (and very fast) from here. I would put the chances of this at 10% This is tied for 1st in the likelihood but I hope they resist it. 40% another 40% and a better option than launching with 6 (IMO) probably no more than a 10% chance and let's hope it does not increase.
See below, and contact the league. This is really getting ridiculous http://canpl.ca/article/james-easton-named-head-of-soccer-operations-for-the-canadian-premier-league The CPL is set to debut with its inaugural season in Spring 2019. For additional information, please contact: Greg McIsaac Communications greg.mcisaac@canpl.ca 416-458-3591 http://canpl.ca/article/soccer-executive-paul-beirne-named-president-of -canadian-premier-league As President, Beirne will manage the day to day league operations of the CPL. His primary focus will be to ensure all elements are in place for the league’s debut in spring 2019 and its long-term success. Beirne, hired as the first employee of the CPL as Project Manager, has been leading the efforts to develop the CPL over the past 18 months. About the Canadian Premier League Canadian Premier League (CPL) is Canada’s domestic men’s soccer league set to debut in spring 2019. For updates and more information, please go to CanPL.ca. For additional information, please contact: Greg McIsaac Communications greg.mcisaac@canpl.ca 416-458-3591
We'll talk more after the announcement. As always, I respect your opinions even if you skillfully pass some of them as facts
The basic rule of optimism bias. In fact, most of the time most people don't hit the targets they set. You're showing it here by thinking that maybe, this time, he'll actually listen to someone else's opinion. I gave up well over a year ago, but it's cool to see that he's expanded his schtick to more than one message board.
I meant bailed out not bailed. http://www.latimes.com/sports/soccer/la-sp-soccer-baxter-20151206-story.html
If you ask people how much time they need to be done with a complex task 99% of the time, they will take longer than that almost half the time. I was reminded of this not long ago when my wife and I reassembled a nice large swingset we bought from some friends who moved out of state. Nine hours and three trips to Home Depot later, we were done with our four hour task. And by "done," I mean there were only a few nonessential screws to get a couple days later. A simple task, performed by people who knew what they were doing.