Review: Croatian players in Yugoslavian national team - historic injustice

List of massacres in Croatia:

Serbians "implemented" human rights:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Croatia

Baćin massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baćin_massacre

Around 120 Croatian civilians, mostly elderly people and women, were left in the adjactent villages of Hrvatska Dubica, Cerovljani and Baćin. In the morning of October 20, 1991, the Serb forces captured 53 civilians in Dubica and held them in the fire department building. During the day and the following night, ten of them were released on the basis that they were Serbs, or had connections with Serbs.

According to the initial indictment against Milan Babić, on the following day, October 21, 1991, the paramilitaries took the remaining 43 people to a location near the village of Baćin. At least thirteen other non-Serb civilians were brought to the same spot from Baćin and Cerovljani. All 56 civilians were then shot there. Their bodies were exhumed from the mass grave in 1997 and 37 of them have been identified. Most of the victims were between 60 and 90 years of age.

Serbian heroes killed non-Serbian people between 60-90 years.

Around the same time, rebel Serb forces also removed another 30 civilians from Baćin and 24 from Dubica and Cerovljani, and killed them at an unknown location. Altogether, 110 people were killed.
The events were described by witnesses at the trial of Slobodan Milošević and others at the ICTY. Milan Martić was sentenced to 35 years in prison for his role in the crime.

Bruška massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruška_massacre

The Bruška massacre took place on 21 December 1991 in Bruška, a small village near the Croatian town of Benkovac when Serbian paramilitaries executed 10 civilians in the hamlet of Marinovići. Nine members of the family Marinović and their Serbian neighbour were led out of the house after playing cards and shot on the spot by members of a paramilitary group called "Knindže".

Kapetan Dragan (Dragan Vasiljkovic) was the commander of this paramilitary group and has been indicted for this crime by the Croatian Ministry of Justice. He is currently in custody in Australia where an Australian journalist discovered him hiding under the false name of Dennis Snedden. He is awaiting his extradition to Croatia.

Why is he hiding?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragan_Vasiljkovic

Dalj massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalj_massacre

Dalj killings and Dalj massacre refer to the events beginning on 1 August 1991 which resulted in the murder of 11 Croatian civilians and 28 Croatian policemen in the village of Dalj, eastern Slavonia at the hand of Serbian paramilitaries, during the Croatian War of Independence.
At the early stage of fighting thousands of Croat and other non-Serb civilians fled from villages of Erdut, Dalj and Aljmaš.

In August 1991, Serb forces led by notorious war criminal Arkan arrested Croat civilians who stayed in their homes and kept them in a detention facility in the police building in Dalj. Eleven of them were shot immediately and their bodies were buried in a mass grave in the village of Ćelija (near Trpinja). Other victims were buried in Daljski Atar.

On 1 August 1991, Serb paramilitaries with some Serb officials entered the detention facility in the police building in Dalj and shot 28 regional Croat police officers. The bodies of the police officers were then taken from the building and dumped into the nearby Danube River.

At least 135 other Croat and non-Serb civilians were killed in this region up until May 1992, which makes it the second largest massacre carried out against Croats, after the Vukovar massacre.

Slobodan Milošević - president of Serbia, charged by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) for ordering murder, deportations and torture of non-Serbs in Dalj through paramilitary soldiers. He died before a verdict was reached.
Jovica Stanišić and Franko Simatović - Stanišić, Head or Chief of the State Security Service of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Republic of Serbia, and Simatović, commander of the Special Operations Unit of the same agency, were both charged for persecutions, deportations and murder of at least 62 people as a crime against humanity in Dalj. According to the prosecution, the Red Berets were commanded by Simatović, while ‘Arkan’s men’ and Scorpions were units also responsible for various crimes. The evidence called by the prosecution alleges that the Serbian State Security Service controlled those units and organized their training. The trial is still pending.
Goran Hadžić - president of the SAO SBWS, charged with unlawful confinement, deportations murder of at least 89 people in Dalj. His trial is pending.

Erdut massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdut_massacre

"Chetniks (Serbs) kill civilians for their pro-Yugoslav Partisan sympathies and for the destruction of the Split-Omiš road."

Lovas massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovas_massacre

Škabrnja massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Škabrnja_massacre

Vukovar massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vukovar_massacre

World War II:

Gata massacre:
Chetniks kill civilians for their pro-Yugoslav Partisan sympathies and for the destruction of the Split-Omiš road.

Glina massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glina_massacre

Gudovac massacre: The Ustaše committed their first mass atrocity and kill 196 Serbs.

Metković massacre: 280 Serbs killed by the Ustaše after decree on the defense of the people and state is issued by the Independent State of Croatia on April 17, 1941.

The following is a list of massacres that have occurred in Croatia (numbers may be approximate). Note that it does not include all massacres that occurred on territory once covered by all historical states called Croatia. See also: list of massacres in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

List of massacres in Bosnia and Herzegovina: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina

Ahatovići massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahatovići_massacre

Serbs against Bosniak (Muslims).

Ahmići massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmići_massacre

Croats against Bosniak (Muslims).

Barimo Massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barimo_Massacre

Serbs against Bosniak (Muslims).

Višegrad massacres: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visegrad_massacre

Serbs against Bosniak (Muslims).

Paklenik Massacre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paklenik_Massacre

Serbs against Bosniak (Muslims).

Bosanska Jagodina massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosanska_Jagodina_massacre

Serbs against Bosniak (Muslims).

Uzamnica camp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzamnica_camp

Uzamnica camp was a concentration camp established in 1992 by JNA forces for the Bosniak civilian prisoners during the Bosnian war.

Serb soldiers raped many women and beat and terrorised non-Serb civilians. Widespread looting and destruction of non-Serb homes and property took place daily and the two Bosniak mosques in town were destroyed.

Vilina Vlas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilina_Vlas

Vilina Vlas is a health spa that served as one of the main detention facilities where Bosniak prisoners were beaten, tortured and sexually assaulted during the Bosnian War, it is located about seven kilometers south-east of Višegrad, on the way to Gorazde.

The hotel served as a camp "brothel". Bosniak women and girls, including many not yet 14 years old, were brought to the camp by police officers and members of the paramilitary groups the White Eagles and Arkan's and Seselj's men. (Serbs, White Eagles is a nickname of Serbian Football NT).

Bijeljina massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bijeljina_massacre

The Bijeljina massacre refers to the killings of Bosniaks by the Serbian paramilitary group Arkan's Tigers during the Bosnian war.

Čemerno massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Čemerno_massacre

The Čemerno massacre was an alleged massacre of the Serbs in the village of Čemerno, in the Ilijaš Municipality, near Sarajevo, on June 10, 1992, during the Bosnian War. Immediately after the incident, one of the survivors was recorded by British television. According to his testimony, the attack had been carried out by Croats, while another eyewitness later also mentioned the Bosnian Muslims.

Possible lie, Croats are unverified. 29-32 victims.

Duša massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duša_massacre

Croats against Bosniak (Muslims). 10 civilians, in other massacres there were much more victims.

Foča massacres: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foča_massacres

Serbs against Bosniak (Muslims). 2,704 victims.

Glogova massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glogova_massacre

Serbs against Bosniak (Muslims).

Prijedor massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prijedor_massacre

Serbs against Bosniak (Muslims) and Croats. 14 000 victims.

Following Slovenia’s and Croatia’s declarations of independence in June 1991, the situation in the Prijedor municipality rapidly deteriorated. During the war in Croatia, the tension increased between the Serbs and the communities of Bosniaks and Croats.

Bosniaks and Croats began to leave the municipality because of a growing sense of insecurity and fear amongst the population which was caused by Serb propaganda which became increasingly visible.

Sjeverin massacre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sjeverin_massacre

Serbs against Bosniak (Muslims).

Srebrenica massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

Serbs against Bosniak (Muslims) - men and boys.

Štrpci massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Štrpci_massacre

Serbs against Bosniak (Muslims) and Croats.

The Štrpci massacre was the massacre of 19 non-Serb citizens of Serbia and Montenegro (18 Bosniaks, one Croat) taken from the Belgrade-Bar train at Štrpci station, near Priboj in Serbia but outside Serbian territory, on 27 February 1993.

Tuzla Massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuzla_Massacre

Between May 25 and May 28, 1995 a number of artillery projectiles were fired at Tuzla from Army of Republika Srpska positions near the village of Panjik on Mount Ozren some 25 km west of Tuzla. On May 25, 1995 (Marshall Tito's birthday and Relay of Youth in former Yugoslavia) at 20:55 hours, a shrapnel shell fired by a 130mm towed artillery piece, detonated in the part of the city called Kapija. There were 71 people killed and 240 wounded. All of the victims were civilians and the majority were between the ages of 18-25. Novak Đukić, a former Army of Republika Srpska officer was arrested in Banja Luka on November 7, 2007. At the time of the Tuzla massacre Đukić was the commander of the Tactical Group Ozren of the VRS. His trial began on March 11, 2008. On June 12, 2009, Đukić was found guilty and sentenced to 25 years imprisonment.

Zvornik massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zvornik_massacre

Serbs against Bosniak (Muslims).

World War II: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina

Chetniks (Serbs) massacred fifty-four Muslims in Čelebić and burned down the village.

Chetniks burned forty-two Muslim villagers to death.

Chetniks received the town of Foča from the Italians and proceeded to massacre around five hundred Muslims. Additional massacres against the Muslims in the area of Foča were carried out in August 1942.

Several hundred Muslims murdered by the Chetniks and their bodies left hanging in the town or thrown into the Drina river.

Chetniks kill Catholic Croats and Muslim civilians under the suspicion that they harbored and aided the Yugoslav Partisans.

Chetniks killed around a thousand Muslim civilians in the town and in nearby villages.

Chetniks kill the civilians of the town with deaths reportedly in the thousands.

In several villages Serbs came back in 1991-1995 after WW2. Obviously they planned to destroy Croats and Muslims.

Prebilovci massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prebilovci_massacre

Croats against Serbs. Only one Croatian massacre during the WW2 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Serbs had much more.

List of massacres in Slovenia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Slovenia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleiburg_massacre

Communists against people who wanted independent Croatia.

List of massacres in Yugoslavia:

Cuska massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuska_massacre

Serbs against Kosovo Albanians.

Drenica massacres: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drenica_massacres

Serbs against Kosovo Albanians.

Foibe killings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foibe_killings

The Foibe killings or Foibe massacres refers to the killings that took place mainly in Istria during and shortly after World War II from 1943 to 1949, perpetrated mainly by Yugoslav Partisans.

The episodes of 1945 occurred partly under conditions of guerrilla warfare by Croatian and Slovenian Partisans against the Germans, the Italian Social Republic and their Slavic collaborators (the Chetniks, the Ustaše and Domobranci) and partly after the territory had been secured by Yugoslav army formations.

Partisans never wanted independent Croatia, they wanted Yugoslavia, this means that Croats didn't killed them.

Izbica massacre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izbica_massacre

Serb paramilitary and military forces killed 146 Kosovo Albanians of all ages in the village of Izbica, in the Drenica region of central Kosovo on 28 March 1999.

Ljubenić massacres: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubenić_massacres

The Ljubenić massacres were a series of killings committed by Serbian police and paramilitary forces on Kosovo Albanians in the in the village of Ljubenić (alb. Lybeniq) near Peć, during the Kosovo War 1998-1999.

Račak massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Račak

15 January 1999 was the killing of 45 Kosovo Albanians in the village of Račak

Serbs against Kosovo Albanians.

Podujevo massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podujevo_massacre

Serbs against Kosovo Albanians.

When you calculate all this, it's visible that Serbs are crucial aggressor against Croats, Bosniak Muslims and Kosovo Albanians.

 

War crimes under communist Yugoslav flag

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http://www.ihr.org/other/sunic062002.html

From the European and American media, one can often get the impression that World War II needs to be periodically resurrected to give credibility to financial demands of one specific ethnic group, at the expense of others. The civilian deaths of the war’s losing side are, for the most part, glossed over. Standard historiography of World War II is routinely based on a sharp and polemical distinction between the "ugly" fascists who lost, and the "good" anti-fascists who won, and few scholars are willing to inquire into the gray ambiguity in between. Even as the events of that war become more distant in time, they seemingly become more politically useful and timely as myths.

German military and civilian losses during and especially after World War II are still shrouded by a veil of silence, at least in the mass media, even though an impressive body of scholarly literature exists on that topic. The reasons for this silence, due in large part to academic negligence, are deep rooted and deserve further scholarly inquiry. Why, for instance, are German civilian losses, and particularly the staggering number of postwar losses among ethnic Germans, dealt with so sketchily, if at all, in school history courses? The mass media -- television, newspapers, film and magazines -- rarely, if ever, look at the fate of the millions of German civilians in central and eastern Europe during and following World War II.

The treatment of civilian ethnic Germans -- or Volksdeutsche -- in Yugoslavia may be regarded as a classic case of "ethnic cleansing" on a grand scale.

A close look at these mass killings presents a myriad of historical and legal problems, especially when considering modern international law, including the Hague War Crimes Tribunal that has been dealing with war crimes and crimes against humanity in the Balkan wars of 1991-1995. Yet the plight of Yugoslavia’s ethnic Germans during and after World War II should be of no lesser concern to historians, not least because an under**standing of this chapter of history throws a significant light on the violent breakup of Communist Yugoslavia 45 years later. A better understanding of the fate of Yugoslavia's ethnic Germans should encourage skepticism of just how fairly and justly international law is applied in practice.

Why are the sufferings and victimhood of some nations or ethnic groups ignored, while the sufferings of other nations and groups receive fulsome and sympathetic attention from the media and politicians?

At the outbreak of World War II in 1939, more than one and a half million ethnic Germans were living in southeastern Europe, that is, in Yugoslavia, Hungary, and Romania. Because they lived mostly near and along the Danube river, these people were popularly known “Danube Swabians” or Donauschwaben. Most were descendants of settlers who came to this fertile region in the 17th and 18th centuries following the liberation of Hungary from Turkish rule.

For centuries the Holy Roman Empire and then the Habsburg Empire struggled against Turkish rule in the Balkans, and resisted the “Islamization” of Europe. In this struggle the Danube Germans were viewed as a rampart of Western civilization, and were held in high esteem in the Austrian (and later, Austro-Hungarian) empire for their agricultural productivity and military prowess. Both the Holy Roman and Habsburg empires were multicultural and multinational entities, in which diverse ethnic groups lived for centuries in relative harmony.

After the end of World War I, in 1918, which brought the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Habsburg empire, and the imposed Versailles Treaty of 1919, the juridical status of the Donauschwaben Germans was in flux. When the National Socialist regime was established in Germany in 1933, the Donauschwaben were among the more than twelve million ethnic Germans who lived in central and eastern Europe outside the borders of the German Reich. Many of these people were brought into the Reich with the incorporation of Austria in 1938, of the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia in 1939, and of portions of Poland in late 1939. The “German question," that is, the struggle for self-determination of ethnic Germans outside the borders of the German Reich, was a major factor leading to the outbreak of World War II. Even after 1939, more than three million ethnic Germans remained outside the borders of the expanded Reich, notably in Romania, Yugoslavia, Hungary and the Soviet Union.

In the first Yugoslavia -- a monarchical state created in 1919 largely as a result of efforts of the victorious Allied powers -- most of the country’s ethnic Germans were concentrated in eastern Croatia and northern Serbia (notably in the Vojvodina region), with some German towns and villages in Slovenia. Other ethnic Germans lived in western Romania and south-eastern Hungary.

This first multiethnic Yugoslav state of 1919-1941 had a population of some 14 million people of diverse cultures and religions. On the eve of World War II it included nearly six million Serbs, about three million Croats, more than a million Slovenes, some two million Bosnian Muslims and ethnic Albanians, approximately half a million ethnic Germans, and another half million ethnic Hungarians. Following the breakup of Yugoslavia in April 1941, accelerated by a rapid German military advance, approximately 200,000 ethnic Germans became citizens of the newly established Independent State of Croatia, a country whose military and civil authorities remained loyally allied with Third Reich Germany until the final week of the war in Europe.

Most of the remaining ethnic Germans of former Yugoslavia -- approximately 300,000 in the Vojvodina region -- came under the jurisdiction of Hungary, which during the war incorporated the region. (After 1945 this region was reattached to the Serbian portion of Yugoslavia.)

The plight of the ethnic Germans became dire during the final months of World War II, and especially after the founding of the second Yugoslavia, a multiethnic Communist state headed by Marshal Josip Broz Tito. In late October 1944, Tito’s guerilla forces, aided by the advancing Soviets and lavishly assisted by Western air supplies, took control of Belgrade, the Serb capital that also served as the capital of Yugoslavia . One of the first legal acts of the new regime was the decree of November 21, 1944, on “The decision regarding the transfer of the enemy's property into the property of the state.” It declared citizens of German origin as “enemies of the people,” and stripped them of civic rights. The decree also ordered the government confiscation of all property, without compensation, of Yugoslavia’s ethnic Germans.

An additional law, promulgated in Belgrade on February 6, 1945, canceled the Yugoslav citizenship of the country’s ethnic Germans.

German civilians lost their human rights completely.

By late 1944 -- when Communist forces had seized control of the eastern Balkans, that is, of Bulgaria, Serbia and Macedonia -- the German-allied state of Croatia still held firm. However, in early 1945, German troops, together with Croatian troops and civilians, began retreating toward southern Austria. During the war’s final months, the majority of Yugoslavia’s ethnic German civilians also joined this great trek. The refugees’ fears of torture and death at Communist hands were well founded, given the horrific treatment by Soviet forces of Germans and others in East Prussia and other parts of eastern Europe. By the end of the war in May 1945, German authorities had evacuated 220,000 ethnic Germans from Yugoslavia to Germany and Austria. Yet many remained in their war-ravaged ancestral homelands, most likely awaiting a miracle.

After the end of fighting in Europe on May 8, 1945, more than 200,000 ethnic Germans who had remained behind in Yugoslavia effectively became captives of the new Communist regime. Some 63,635 Yugoslav ethnic German civilians (women, men and children) perished under Communist rule between 1945 and 1950 -- that is, some 18 percent of the ethnic German civilian population still remaining in the new Yugoslavia. Most died as a result of exhaustion as slave laborers, in “ethnic cleansing,” or from disease and malnutrition.

Much of the credit for the widely-praised “economic miracle” of Titoist Yugoslavia, it should be noted, must go to the tens of thousands of German slave laborers who, during the late 1940s, helped to build the impoverished country.

Property of ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia confiscated in the aftermath of World War II amounted to 97,490 small businesses, factories, shops, farms and diverse trades. The confiscated real estate and farmland of Yugoslavia’s ethnic Germans came to 637,939 hectares (or about one million acres), and became state-owned property. According to a 1982 calculation, the value of the property confiscated from ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia amounted to 15 billion German marks, or about seven billion US dollars. Taking inflation into account, this would today correspond to twelve billion US dollars. From 1948 to 1985, more than 87,000 ethnic Germans who were still residing in Yugoslavia moved to Germany and automatically became German citizens.

The style of Yugoslavia and Josip Broz Tito. Pretty humane lifestyle?

All this constitutes a "final solution of the German question” in Yugoslavia.

Numerous survivors have provided detailed and graphic accounts of the grim fate of the ethnic German civilians, particularly women and children, who were held in Communist Yugoslav captivity. One noteworthy witness is the late Father Wendelin Gruber, who served as a chaplain and spiritual leader to many fellow captives.

These numerous survivor accounts of torture and death inflicted on German civilians and captured soldiers by Yugoslav authorities adds to the chronicle of Communist oppression worldwide.

Of the 26,000 ethnic Danubian ethnic Germans serving in various military formations who lost their lives, half perished after the end of the war in Yugoslav camps. Particularly high were the losses of the "Prinz Eugen” division, most of whom surrendered after May 8, 1945. Some 1,700 of these prisoners were killed in the village of Brezice near the Croat-Slovenian border, while the remaining half was worked to death in Yugoslav zinc mines near the town of Bor, in Serbia.

In addition to the “ethnic cleansing” of Danube German civilians and soldiers, some 70,000 Germans who had served in regular Wehrmacht forces perished in Yugoslav captivity. Most of these died as a result of reprisals, or as slave laborers in mines, road construction, shipyards, and so forth. These were mostly troops of “Army Group E” who had surrendered to British military authorities in southern Austria at the time of the armistice of May 8, 1945. British authorities turned over about 150,000 of these German prisoners of war to Communist Yugoslav partisans under pretext of later repatriation to Germany.

Most of these former regular Wehrmacht troops perished in postwar Yugoslavia in three stages: During the first stage more than 7,000 captured German troops died in Communist-organized “atonement marches" (Suhnemärsche) stretching 800 miles from the southern border of Austria to the northern border of Greece. During the second phase, in late summer 1945, many German soldiers in captivity were summarily executed or thrown alive into large karst pits along the Dalmatian coast of Croatia. In the third stage, 1945-1955, an additional 50,000 perished as forced laborers due to malnutrition and exhaustion.

The total number of German losses in Yugoslav captivity after the end of the war -- including ethnic “Danube German” civilians and soldiers, as well as “Reich” Germans -- may therefore be conservatively estimated at 120,000 killed, starved, worked to death, or missing.

"Long live the Revolution!"

What is the importance of these figures? What lessons can be drawn in assessing these postwar German losses?

It is important to stress that the plight of German civilians in the Balkans is only a small portion of the Allied topography of death. Seven to eight million Germans -- both military personnel and civilians -- died during and after World War II. Half of those perished during the final months of the war, or after Germany’s unconditional surrender on May 8, 1945. German casualties, both civilian and military, were arguably higher in "peace” than in "war.”

In the months before and after the end of World War II, ethnic Germans were killed, tortured and dispossessed throughout eastern and central Europe, notably in Silesia, East Prussia, Pomerania, the Sudetenland, and the “Wartheland” region. Altogether 12-15 million Germans fled or were driven from their homes in what is perhaps the greatest “ethnic cleansing” in history. Of this number, more than two million were killed or otherwise lost their lives.

The grim events in postwar Yugoslavia are rarely dealt with in the media of the countries that emerged on the ruins of communist Yugoslavia, even though, remarkably, there is today greater freedom of expression and historical research there than in such western European countries as Germany and France. The elites of Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia, largely made up of former Communists, seem to share a common interest in repressing their sometimes murky and criminal past with regard to the postwar treatment of German civilians.

The breakup of Yugoslavia in 1990-91, the events leading to it, and the war and atrocities that followed, can only be understood within a larger historical framework. As already noted, “ethnic cleansing” is nothing new. Even if one regards the former Serb-Yu**goslav leader Slobodan Milosevic and the other defendants being tried by the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague as wicked criminals, their crimes are trivial compared to those of Communist Yugoslavia’s founder, Josip Broz Tito. Tito carried out “ethnic cleansing” and mass killings on a far greater scale, against Croats, Germans and Serbs, and with the sanction of the British and American governments. His rule in Yugoslavia (1945-1980), which coincided with the “Cold War” era, was generally supported by the Western powers, who regarded his regime as a factor of stability in this often unstable region of Europe.

The wartime and postwar plight of Germans in the Balkans also provides lessons about the fate of multiethnic and multicultural states. The fate of the two Yugoslavias -- 1919-1941 and 1944-1991 -- underscores the inherent weakness of multiethnic states. Twice in the 20th century, multicultural Yugoslavia fell apart amid needless carnage and a spiral of hatreds among its constituent ethnic groups. One can argue, therefore, that it is better for diverse nations and cultures, let alone different races, to live apart, separated by walls, than to pretend to live in a feigned unity that hides animosities waiting to explode, and leaving behind lasting resentments.

Multicultural Yugoslavia, in both its first and second incarnations, was above all the creation of, respectively, the French, British and American leaders who crafted the Versailles settlement of 1919, and the British, Soviet Russian and American leaders who met at Yalta and Potsdam in 1945. The political figures who created Yugoslavia did not represent the nations in the region, and understood little of the self-perceptions or ethnic-cultural affinities of the region’s various peoples.

Although the deaths, suffering and dispossession of the ethnic Germans of the Balkans during and after World War II are well documented by both German authorities and independent scholars, they continue to be largely ignored in the major media of the United States and Europe. Why? One could speculate that if those German losses were more widely discussed and better known, they would likely stimulate an alternative perspective on World War II, and indeed of 20th century history. A greater and more widespread awareness of German civilian losses during and after World War II might well encourage a deeper discussion of the dynamics of contemporary societies. This, in turn, could significantly affect the self-perception of millions of people, forcing many to discard ideas and myths that have fashionably prevailed for more than half a century. An open debate about the causes and consequences of World War II would also tarnish the reputations of many scholars and opinion makers in the United States and Europe. Arguably, a greater awareness of the sufferings of German civilians during and after World War II, and the implications of that, could fundamentally change the policies of the United States and other major powers.

Welcome to the Yugoslavia! Please leave your passports and enter in the concentration camps and work beyond your power, like "volunteers". Such a lovely place. Worshipers of this flag today are worshipers of violence, war crimes and death. Avoid them in wide circle, because they are brain washed, without any postulate of democracy and desire for human rights. Yugoslavia did crimes way before World War II.

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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXHvqDlw1m8"]Communist Crimes in Zadar, Croatia (former Yugoslavia) - YouTube[/ame]

http://www.communistcrimes.org/en/Database/Croatia/Historical-Introduction
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For Croatia, 1945 marked the imposition of Communist rule and return to Yugoslavia. Shielded by their fight against Nazi Germany, Communists used the Second World War to get rid of domestic political competition as well. Tens of thousands fell victim to Communist crimes after WWII. After liberating Croatia from Nazis and establishing the new state of Yugoslavia, Communists went after the anti-Communist Croatian army units who had retreated to Austria and surrendered to British troops. Britain, however, turned 340.000 soldiers and civilian refugees over to Yugoslav authorities who, according to different estimates, murdered 50.000–200.000 of them. Terror continued after Communists had secured power and by 1953, some 116.000 people had been repressed, including 26.947 killed. Although the terror later subdued, Croatia had tens of thousands political prisoners during 1948–88.

Bleiburg massacre happening had 340 000 soldiers and civilian refugees. They were all unarmed and surrendered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleiburg_massacre​

 

http://www.virginiakapic.nl/main/index.php/the-bleiburg-massacre-​

Many top-ranking politicians and Catholic clerics visit the site annually. For the 60th anniversary commemorations in 2005 a large crowd was in attendance. In 2006, the site was attended by Croatian government officials. Catholic mass was led by bishop Josip Mrzljak. In 2007 a new altar was installed at the site. Cardinal Josip Bozanić inaugurated the altar at the 2007 commemorations which drew 10,000 people.

In 2008 the commemmoration was attended by over 10,000 people. Mass was held by the bishop of Hvar Slobodan Štambuk. The Croatian Parliament was represented by the leader of the Croatian Peasant Party Josip Friščić, while the Croatian Government was represented by minister Berislav Rončević. The Croatian and Slovenian governments reached an agreement at this time of cooperation on organizing military cemeteries, similar to earlier agreements Slovenia reached with Italy and Germany. According to the Slovenian government, the mass grave site in Tezno is being planned as a memorial park and cemetery.

On communist commemorations you can see maybe 30, 40 people who have 80, 90 years, but here you can see all age groups, this event will live forever. Communists can only dream this kind of manifestation. Bleiburg is visited from all over the world, from every part where Croats live.

To Croatians, the tragedy began at the small village of Bleiburg in Southern Carenthia, Austria. Bleiburg is a model for all the forced repatriations in post-war Europe. These post-war massacres of Croatians are almost unknown outside the Croatian com-munity despite the fact that the Bleiburg-Maribor massacres have been documented in such works as Operation Slaughterhouse by John Prcela and Stanko Guldescu, In Tito's Death Marches and Extermination Camps by Joseph Heÿimoviÿ, Operation Keelhaul by Julius Epstein, Bleiburg by Vinko Nikoliÿ, and perhaps best known, The Minister and the Massacres by Count Nikolai Tolstoy. That these massacres occurred is irrefutable. Only the number of deaths and the depth of American and British duplicity are in question.

The story of Bleiburg began in early 1945 as it became clear that Germany would lose the War. As the German Army retreated toward the Austrian border, the Red Army advanced, and the Partisans began their con-solidation of power, anarchy prevailed in what was Yugo-slavia. A dozen or more nationalist movements and ethnic militias attempted to salvage various parts of Yugoslavia. Most nationalists, Croatian, Slovenian and Serbian alike, were anti-Communist and all had visions of the Western Allies welcoming them into the coming battle against Communism. Croatians especially cherished the totally unsup-ported notion that Anglo-American intervention would save an independent Croatian state.

As in every other part of eastern Europe, armies, governments, and civilian populations began moving toward the Western lines. Some were pushed before the retreating Germans, others followed in their wake. Many traveled in small bands, armed or unarmed, while others were well organized into mass movements of people and equipment. Along the trek north they fought the Partisans and Chetniks (Serbs). Many surrendered, others fought to the death.

The retreating Germans, usually without bothering to inform their erstwhile allies, took with them much of the material support needed by the Croatian armed forces. Despite conditions, several Croatian generals wanted to defend the city of Zagreb from the Partisan advance and fight to the finish if necessary. The Partisans made it clear that the city, swollen to twice its size with refugees, would be destroyed if they met resistance. A final meeting of the Croatian government was held on April 30, 1945 at which the decision was made to abandon Zagreb and retreat into Austria.

Still quite naive concerning Allied intentions, many Croatian officers hoped that the still sizable Croatian Army would be allowed to surrender to the British to fight again against the Russians. Since both Croatia and Britain were signatories to the Geneva Conventions, it was felt that at worst the Croatians would be treated as prisoners of war.

The exodus from Zagreb began on May 1st. Some 200,000 civilians were flanked by almost as many soldiers, sailors and airmen of the Croatian armed forces. The Arch-bishop-Metropolitan Aloysius Stepinac took charge of the government for the few hours between the departure of Croatian officials and the arrival of the Partisan Army. State Minister was dispatched to Italy as a peace emissary to the Allies and several high-ranking English-speaking officers headed the main column toward Austria.

The retreat was well ordered and the protecting flank armies insured that all of the civilians arrived safely at the Austrian border by May 7. A number of military units remained behind to fight delaying actions as late as May 12. Still other units, known as Crusaders fled into the hills and fought sporadic guerilla actions until 1948.

The huge column finally came to rest in a small valley near the Austrian village of Bleiburg, where they arrived on May 14th and 15th. Believing in the sense of fair play and justice for which the British had made themselves known, the Croatians surrendered to the British with the promise that they would not be forced back into Yugoslavia.

The leaders had no way of knowing that their peace emissary, Dr. Vranÿiÿ, had traveled as far as Forli, Italy by plane and car under a white flag only to be stopped short of his goal. At Forli, Vranÿiÿ and Naval Captain Vrkljan, who spoke fluent English, were detained by one Captain Douglas of British Field Security who was more interested in their diplomatic grade Mercedes-Benz automobile than their mission to see Field Marshal Alexander in Caserta. He held the emissaries incommunicado until May 20 when he had them thrown into a prisoner of war camp and confiscated the automobile.

In the belief that their envoys had made some arrangement with the British, the multitude of humanity set up camp in the valley to await the outcome of negotiations. One of the first groups to arrive at British head-quarters was a contin-gent of 130 members of the Croatian government headed by President Nikola Mandic. All were told that they would be transferred to Italy as soon as possible by British Military Police. All were then loaded into a train and returned to the Partisans. It was the intent of the British to turn over all Croatians, as well as Serbs and Slovenes, to the Communists from whom they had fled.

When the Croatian military leaders realized that they had led hundreds of thousands into a trap, some committed suicide on the spot. The British extradited at first hundreds, then thousands of Croatians. Some were shot at the border, while others joined the infamous "Death Marches" which took them deeper into the new People's Republic for liquidation. They were forced back, some in trains, some on foot, to the waiting arms of Tito's Partisans. On May 16, 1945, the killing began. It would not end for two years.

The survivors of the initial atrocities were organized into forced marches by the 7th Brigade of the 17th Partisan Division. The Croatians called them the "Death Marches." Tens of thousands of men, women and children were marched, hands tied with wire, through the villages and towns of southern Austria and Slovenia. On their southward trek toward the camps, they were starved, beaten, raped and ridiculed. Those who did not march were shot and dumped into shallow graves or caves. Wounded and ill Croatian soldiers and civilians in hospitals and field camps were loaded onto wagons and sent toward the camps with the southbound sea of humanity. Many would not survive. Those who did live would spend as much as a decade in concentration camps, labor battalions and prisons. Finally, the government of Yugoslavia plowed over Croatian military cemeteries and attempted to erase all traces of the Bleiburg massacres. As late as 1974 graves were removed to block investigation of the tragedy. 2 The total number of people liquidated may never be known. Despite the scholarship and masses of documents proving the contrary, the Yugoslav government denied that the Bleiburg-Maribor massacres or any subsequent liquidation of anti-Communists occurred. As late as 1976 special teams were active in Slovenia and southern Austria cover-ing up evidence of the crimes. The American and British govern-ments, implicated in the forced repatriation that led to the slaughter, also sought to cover-up or at least ignore the crimes.

Unlike Lidece, or Hiroshima, or Dresden, the tragedy of Bleiburg was not a single event, but hundreds of events over a long period of time. And, unlike Hiroshima or Dresden, Bleiburg was not an act of war. It was an act of post-war retribution. The initial killings near the Austro-Yugoslav border were followed by the execution of members of the Croatian government. There were massacres at other sites. Some, like Kamnik involved a few thousand deaths. Others, like Maribor, saw over 40,000 die.

To debate whether the suffering of the Croatians at Bleiburg and beyond surpassed that of the Cossacks, Russians, Ukrainians or the millions of others of all nations during and after World War II, or to attempt to quantify whether the collective fate of the victims of Bleiburg was worse than that of the citizens of Hiroshima or Dresden, serves neither an academic or humanistic purpose. One half century after the fact, continuing to lay blame, access guilt or call for vengeance serves no purpose.

What is clearly needed is further study. Serious, unemotional, study by historians, political scientists, legal scholars, sociologists, psychologists, forensic criminologists and others. The study must be separated from political or ethnic considerations. The task at hand is to learn the true impact of Bleiburg on post-War Croatia, the psyche and self-image of the Croatian nation. The mere recognition that Bleiburg did occur, that ques-tions exist, and that in all things there are causes, actions, and effects, is a giant first step toward understanding the tragedy and healing the wounds still felt by so many.

6. - 15.V.1945 Massive numbers of Croatian soldiers and civilians withdraw from Croatia and march towards southern Austria to surrender to the Western Allies. They arrive in the small village of Bleiburg where the British hand them over to Tito's Partisans. The infamous "Death Marches" result in the most horrible slaughters in the history of Croatia.Yu

Source: MYTH- "THERE WAS NO RETRIBUTION AGAINST THE CROATIANS AFTER WORLD WAR II"-

MYTH: "THERE WAS NO RETRIBUTION AGAINST THE CROATIANS AFTER WORLD WAR II"
Myth: Because Tito was a Croatian, no retribution was taken against Croatian officials, soldiers or civilians after World War II by the victorious Partisans.

Reality: Thousands of Croatians were slaughtered immediately after the War, tens of thousands more were sent to prisons, government officials were executed and those who escaped were tracked down and murdered in foreign lands well into the 1960s.

That there was no retribution against the Croatians after World War II is not so much a myth as an outright attempt to falsify history. As is the case with several other myths, the Serbian apologists Nora Beloff and David Martin gave new currency to this story in the world press during the Croatian war for independence.

Yugoslavia had a lot of myths. But reality is different.

In 1999 the resources from the Republic of Slovenia reported as many as 110 mass graves of Croats discovered in this state, victims of the "Way of the Cross" in 1945 immediately after the end of World War II. Among them there were not only soldiers, but also a large number of civilians. The Slovenian public was shocked by the size and number of these graves.
In 2001 Slovenian sources reported as many as 296 mass graves on their territory, and an estimate of about 190,000 people killed immediately after the end of World War II (May 1945 and later), mostly Croats. Just in the region of Tezno woods Slovenian sources estimate about 60-80,000 killed. Many children's bones have been found among the victims' remains.

Tezno: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tezno

During World War II, an anti-tank trench was dug in Tezno, around one kilometer in length and 3 to 4 meters wide. At the end of the war in 1945, in the events now collectively referred to as the Bleiburg massacre, the Yugoslav Partisans buried numerous bodies of executed Ustasha prisoners of war. In 2007, the Commission on Concealed Mass Graves in Slovenia reported that their analysis of the excavated corpses, in what is now a forested area in Tezno, points to an estimated minimum of fifteen thousand casualties. In June 2010, Croatian president Ivo Josipović visited the site.

Tezno is considered to be the biggest mass graveyard in Europe.

Huda Jama: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huda_Jama

The Commission on Concealed Mass Graves in Slovenia has revealed a site of a mass grave with remains of bodies of hundreds of victims of political killings from the period immediately after the Second World War in a nearby abandoned coal mine known as the Barbara pit.

Photos of Huda Jama:

http://www.google.hr/search?q=HUDA+...a=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBAQ_AUoAQ

 

NY TIMES: The Serbs and Croats: So Much in Common, Including Hate​

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/16/world/the-serbs-and-croats-so-much-in-common-including-hate.html

The bitter and often violent contest in Yugoslavia between Serbs and Croats, who share a common language and much common history, is of recent origin.

For most of 14 centuries these two Slavic peoples lived in relative harmony as neighbors -- the Serbs largely to the southeast and the Croats largely to the northwest. Indeed, some historians contend that the Serbs and Croats were related tribes of Persian origin who migrated as warriors to the Balkan peninsula, where they were assimilated by South Slavs already settled there by the fifth century.

In 924, the Croats established a kingdom that was recognized by the Roman Catholic Pope and lasted about 200 years. The Serbs were Christianized about the same time, but came under the influence of the eastern Orthodox church of the Byzantine Greeks. In the 12th century, just as the Croat princes chose Hungarian suzerainty, the Serbs created their own kingdom. A century later, they founded their own Orthodox church. At the end of the 14th century, the Serbs were conquered by the Turks of the Ottoman Empire. Both Serbs and Croats spent most of the next 400 years under foreign flags.

What transformed the Serbs and Croats in the 20th century into hostile camps was a combustible mixture of physical proximity, ancient religious rivalry and self-centered visions of their national destinies. A Memory of Empire

For the five million Croats that vision is the revival after an eight-century hiatus of a medieval dream of separateness. For the nine million Serbs it is a myth of grandeur born of the memory of an empire, briefly maintained by their ancestors, that stretched from the Serbian heartland to the Aegean Sea.

The conflict between the two visions lies in the fact that the majority of the Croats seek a sovereign Croatian state at most loosely confederated with the other South Slav nations, while most Serbs want a centralized Yugoslav entity run from Belgrade, their capital.

The tinder for this latest version of the Balkan powder keg was laid centuries ago by the dominant forces in the region -- the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the north and the Ottoman Turks in the south.

Together these imperial powers succeeded in scattering hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Christian Serbs among Roman Catholic Croats and, to an equal degree, Croats among Serbs. Forced intermingling began in 1699 when the Hapsburg Emperor, Leopold I, began populating the military frontier along the southern boundaries of the Croatian province with thousands of Serbs, many of whom had fled their Ottoman-controlled homeland where Islam was being imposed. The military frontier region became known as the Krajina.

As long as the Hapsburgs and the Ottomans remained dominant -- until the eve of World War I -- Serb-Croat animosities remained largely hypothetical. They were unharnessed by the establishment in 1918 of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, the forerunner of Yugoslavia.

In fact, the original idea of Yugoslavia -- a South Slav state -- now so deplored by Croatian politicians, was a Croatian concept. Its chief advocate in the 19th century was Bishop Josip Juraj Strosmajer of Zagreb.

But the majority of Croats, fearing Serbian domination, fell under the spell of narrow nationalists demanding a separate Croatian state. In the late 1920's, as King Alexander, a Serb, imposed ever more authoritarian rule on the Yugoslavs, Croats turned increasingly to a secret organization called Ustasa (uprising).

This is another myth: "Financed and in part inspired by the Fascist Government of Mussolini, Ustasa terrorists murdered King Alexander in 1934."

Reality is much different: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Yugoslavia#Assassination

"As a result of the previous deaths of three family members on a Tuesday, Alexander refused to undertake any public functions on that day of the week. On Tuesday 9 October 1934, however, he had no choice, as he was arriving in Marseilles to start a state visit to the Third French Republic, to strengthen the two countries' alliance in the Little Entente. While Alexander was being driven in a car through the streets along with French Foreign Minister Louis Barthou, a gunman, Vlado Chernozemski, stepped from the street and shot the King and the chauffeur. Barthou was accidentally shot by a French policeman and died later."

Vlado Chernozemski: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlado_Chernozemski

Vlado Chernozemski (19 October 1897 – 9 October 1934), born Velichko Dimitrov Kerin (Bulgarian: Величко Димитров Керин), was a Bulgarian revolutionary. Not Croatian at all!

He was born in the village of Kamenitsa (now part of Velingrad, Bulgaria). He joined the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) in 1922. After killing Dimo Hadjidimov, leader of Bulgarian Communist Party in 1924 he was sentenced to death in 1928, but was granted an amnesty in 1932. He also murdered another member of the left wing of IMRO, Naum Tomalevski, in 1930 on the order of Ivan Mihaylov. He had cooperated with the Croatian movement Ustaše.

Chernozemski also entered the region of Vardar Macedonia with IMRO bands and participated in more than 15 battles with the Serbian police.

In 1927, Chernozemski proposed to the Central Committee of the IMRO to enter and detonate the main conference building of the League of Nations in Paris, with grenades attached to his person, in order to attract the attention of the world publicity over the question of the Bulgarians in Macedonia, but his proposal was not accepted.

He was one of the finest marksmen in the IMRO. He assassinated Alexander I of Yugoslavia in the port of Marseille, France on 9 October 1934, and was himself killed immediately afterwards, 10 days before his 37th birthday. He was also thought to have shot and killed French Foreign Minister Louis Barthou until 1974, when it was revealed that the bullet actually came from a French policeman reacting to the shooting of King Alexander.

Nothing to do with Croatia. People don't know reality, this sentence is without any proof.

Interesting thing is that king Alexander avoided to do anything on Tuesday, because his three members of family died on Tuesday. The day of assassination in Marseille was Tuesday: 9. October 1934. On this day he couldn't avoid doing political issues on Tuesday, because there was a protocol on that day. King Alexander was Montenegrin. One day some Montenegrin people approached to him and said: "How can Yugoslavia have so small number of ministers that have origins from Montenegro". King Alexander said: "But you have the king".

 

Serbia TV host preaches hate against Croats and Catholic Church​

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/serbia/TPJGKK8IK3O42DME0

You can't heat these words on Croatian TV against other nations and religions.

Why do people hate Serbs? (Public opinion): http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091117215600AAtd0vc

One member said that Croats hate Serbs more? Serbs attacked Croats, not opposite. How can anyone like their aggressor? Attackers always have larger hatred obviously. He also said: "While Serbia is full of Croatian products and investments, hardly any Serbian product and investment reached Croatian market."

Croats don't have Serbian products because they don't have the product quality. They accept Croatian merchandise because it's better than their products. Serbs would buy their products, but they don't like them, how can Croats like them?

Serbs only produce alcohol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Serbian_products_with_protected_designation_of_origin

http://www.balkanium.com/forum/showthread.php/2130-Serbian-products-conquering-the-world

Croats produce much more: http://www.product-of-croatia.com/?jezik=en

Serbian products Croats can produce in their own country. Why import?

 

Croatian cuisine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_cuisine

Photos, 1,56 millions of results: http://www.google.hr/search?q=Croat...ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBAQ_AUoAQ&biw=1152&bih=773

Serbian cuisine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_cuisine

Photos, 1,37 millions of results: http://www.google.hr/search?q=serbi...ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CA0Q_AUoAQ&biw=1152&bih=773

Slovenian cuisine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenian_cuisine

Photos, 268 000 of results: http://www.google.hr/search?q=SLOVE...ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBAQ_AUoAQ&biw=1152&bih=773

Bosnia and Herzegovina cuisine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_cuisine

Photos, 911 000 of results: http://www.google.hr/search?q=BOSNI...ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBAQ_AUoAQ&biw=1152&bih=773

Macedonian cuisine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_cuisine

Photos, 249 000 of results: http://www.google.hr/search?q=MAced...ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBEQ_AUoAQ&biw=1152&bih=773

Montenegrin cuisine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrin_cuisine

Photos, 1,35 millions of photos: http://www.google.hr/search?q=MAced...ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBEQ_AUoAQ&biw=1152&bih=773

Motenegrins mostly have their hotels represented as cuisine.

Kosovo/Albanian cuisine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_cuisine

Photos, 326 000 of photos: http://www.google.hr/search?q=ALBAN...ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1152&bih=773

It's visible that Croatian cuisine has much more to offer, Croats have regional diversity when it's the question of cuisine. Every region has their own cuisine. I think that every cuisine has their qualities and good tastes, but they can't measure with Croatian cuisine.

Croatian wine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_wine

Serbian wine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_wine

Croatia has much more to offer in wine production.

Transport in Croatia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Croatia

Transport in Serbia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Serbia

 

The bicycle diaries: Serbian hospitality: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/a.../The-bicycle-diaries-Serbian-hospitality.html

Serbian itinerary.

Continuing his epic 6,000-mile bike ride to India, Douglas Whitehead receives a warm welcome in troubled Serbia.

Five seconds after sitting down outside a cafe in the Serbian border town of Backa Palanka, I was joined by a boy of about six or seven. He had a cheeky face, an equally cheeky manner and introduced himself as Zoltan.

He beckoned for me to give him some money.

No.

Could he have a cigarette, then?

Definitely not.

Next, he pointed to my bottle of Coca Cola on the table.

I wasn't overly enamored with the idea of sharing it as he was grubby, even down the insides of his ears, but the repeated refusals felt mean-spirited.

However, rather than taking a drink he simply unscrewed the top and glanced underneath. There must have been a promotion running, but my bottle couldn't have been a winner because he handed the top straight back.

The rest of the large but diminutive gang now put in an appearance. Their obvious leader was aged about 11 and had a name that sounded as though it might have been Dragon. He had a rub-on transfer of Spiderman on his hand, and for something to say I asked facetiously if it was a tattoo.

He shook his head, then rolled up his tracksuit leg to reveal an inky series of scratchings covering his calf, which depicted ...I don't really know what.

Had he done the tattoo himself?

Yes.

It must have been very painful?

No.

Where was I from, he wanted to know. He then snatched my map from one of the other boys. Repeating the word "London" he began to slowly run his finger across its length and breadth.

As the map went no further north than Hungary, I decided to save him a fruitless search. (They don't know geography outside of Serbia).

Quiet, he ordered with a brisk wave of an upturned palm - I was breaking his concentration. Yes, he was in charge, alright.

The others, meanwhile, fired off questions until, finally growing bored of my complete inability to answer, regardless of how slowly they spoke, they went over to a well-dressed couple sat at the cafe next-door to offer their services as eaters of ice cream.

They go from the table to table asking food, money, pretty annoying for tourists.

I confiscated my map and also headed off, only to find at the next stop that my lighter had gone missing. Maybe it had fallen out of my pocket along the way. Maybe it hadn't.

Maybe they took his lighter, who knows, fast hands make miracles.

The hotel room at Novi Sad, Serbia's second biggest city, contained a nice big double bed ...and nothing else. Electrical wires hung down from the shower in the communal bathroom and there was evidence that the toilet didn't flush.

City of Novi Sad is in the most richest Serbian region called Vojvodina. Imagine than what types of hotels you can find in other regions and cities.


It was Saturday night and the occupants of the room to one side were happily having a party, complete with accordion music.

Accordion music is so annoying. This instrument is very popular in wedding ceremonies after the ceremony in the church. These accordion players like to drink a lot.

Well, looking on the bright side, the room had cost less than £15.

"Cheap quality."

I came down the next morning at about 8am to find a plaque on the wall showing a young Albert Einstein. It was written in the Cyrillic alphabet but I managed to decipher that he had once lived here. Not such a genius, after all.

Sophie, the hotel manageress, said some very nice German tourists had stayed before, but a couple of recent female guests from England had complained about absolutely everything. "English women too fussy," she said.

Rood hotel service.

She went on to tell me that there was a fashion for cellar bars in Novi Sad. Why? Because since the devastating NATO bombardment of the city in 1999 during the Kosovo war, people now felt psychologically safer underground. Serbia was bombed only two months.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia

Imagine than how was in Eastern Croatia during Serbian bombing for four years?

Sophie liked to practice her English and the conversation went veering onto many different subjects.

Although only 26, she said she was already worried about being left on the shelf. Many of her friends hankered after the Montenegran men in Novi Sad because they had money and designer clothes, having sold their houses on the coast to Western buyers.

Serbian women - gold diggers.

This was shallow, she said, but added that it was better behavior than that displayed by one of her friends, a Slovenian girl, who had married her brother.
Sorry? Whose brother? I thought I must have misunderstood, but I hadn't. "Is that normal," I asked.

This is not usual in Slovenia.

"Of course, it is not normal," she said, throwing up her hands in exasperation.

"I told her I will kill myself before I agree to something like that. She is not my friend now."

"No, I meant is it usual. Does it happen a lot?"

"Yes, but not among Serbs. Some people, they like to keep the wealth in the family."

"And is it legal?"

"No, but very little is illegal if you have money."

Thankfully, our talk then led towards safer ground. "Is it true that the Queen chose Prince William's girlfriend?"

When I looked at my watch it was 2pm. I decided to stay for another night.

It's not that Serbs are bad drivers. Judging from the way that they consistently manage to whistle past just inches from your left elbow, they are, in many ways, very good drivers. However, they do seem possessed by an urgent need to overtake each other wherever and whenever possible. Evidence for this can be found in the large number of roadside memorials.

As a result, I was deeply relieved to swap the busy and narrow main road out of Novi Sad for a quiet country lane. But although it was a sunny day, a head wind soon picked up that was so strong it was difficult to walk against, let alone cycle. My speed dropped to below 5mph.

India? At this rate I would be lucky if I ever made the 30 miles to Belgrade, Serbia's capital. I began to fantasize about a black London cab drawing up by my side. "Lambert Road, Brixton ... and please hurry."

But rather than a taxi, a man on a bicycle came towards me from a side road. He lent over, slapped me on the back and then uttered three very welcome words: "You, me, beer." Like men on a mission we peddled on together side by side.

Outside a small store we sat down on a low wooden bench and, sheltered by a high wall, we communicated partly by writing on the ground with a bottle top.

He was an apple farmer called Sasha, was 35-years-old, had two children, and was Slovakian although his family had lived in Serbia for at least three generations.

Vojvodina is multi-cultural region.

He didn't own a car, just the old Chinese-made bicycle that was held together by masking tape, but his lack of wealth did not prevent him from loudly insisting that he bought all the beers. "You guest," he kept saying whenever I tried to protest.

Sad destiny of this Slovak person, Slovakia has much better perspective than Serbia.

"Jiveli" is the Serbian for "Cheers", but despite Sasha's long-suffering efforts to help me pronounce it exactly right, by the third beer I was going backwards. Clinking our bottles together for the umpteenth time, I proclaimed "Jumanji", the title of a mediocre film starring Robin Williams. It was quite funny at the time.

It's not "Jiveli", it's "Živjeli". "Živjeti" means "Live", like "Live long".

Croats say "Uzdravlje", "With health", but also Croats have "Živjeli".

Sasha kissed me goodbye on both cheeks and bought me another can of beer for the journey. The gale was still blowing just as fiercely but now I was travelling at twice the speed ... at least for a while.

Soon a van driver called Boris pulled up. His English was better. "Do you want to come for a beer with me," he enquired.

They mostly spend their times in resting, "siesta" with beer, slivovitz, rakija, etc.

While many Serbians hold a grudge against the Western media for the way they feel they have been portrayed, any rancour certainly doesn't extend to a personal level. In fact, I don't think I've ever encountered such widespread hospitality as I've enjoyed in the past few days.

"Serbs are not bad people," said Boris, who explained that during the Civil War he had been forced to flee from Osijek, the Croatian city I had visited last week. "CNN is wrong about us." He also insisted on paying for the beer.

They are not bad people, just they like to provoke wars, ethnic cleansing, organize concentration camps, create refugees, destroy family homes, churches, hospitals, kill civilians, rape women, they like to drink, they are lazy, they don't have much of education, they are violent, radical, they think that they are famous in the world, they celebrate lost battles and they try to forbid manifestations of other countries, beside that they are excellent.

Opening the door of hostel in Belgrade, I was met by the sight of a man slouched on a settee, who wore a large pair of Dr Martens, black leggings and a hoodie, which he drew back to expose a head that was balding and grey on top, but had a long plait of hair that reached right down to the small of his back. Coiled around his neck was a large tattoo of a snake.

Angel, as he called himself, had been born in Los Angeles. I would guess he was aged about 60, but his many years as a stage hand with Alice Cooper and several other well-known bands had left him with a face that might have been living the Rock 'n' Roll lifestyle for twice as many years. He had been in Belgrade for about 18 months.

Was he enjoying it?

"I'm surviving it, man," he said, and went on to explain that he had moved here from Amsterdam where he had met his Serbian wife, another Sophie, ten years ago. "We're here for our kid. She's at the best school in Belgrade, possibly in the whole of Serbia. All the rich kids go there... and those of the famous and the crime bosses. And it's a good city... cheap and not filled with freaks and perverts like New York or London."

But it was a struggle. Their landlord had broken a contract and asked for more rent, and they were presently moving as a family from hostel to hostel. He outlined a number of future entrepreneurial ideas, but bureaucracy was such a problem over here, he said.

In the short-term, though, the band AC/DC, who he had worked for previously, were coming to Belgrade next month and he was hoping to drum up some cash from that.

Sophie, who was not much more than half Angel's age now joined us, having been asleep in the dormitory. I learned that, early the next morning, she was catching a bus to a resort in Croatia for two months in order to find work.

They want to work in Croatia. Promised land for them obviously. Croats aren't sending money like in Yugoslavia times, now they must work.

They were off to meet their daughter from school in about an hour. Did I want to go with them? Angel said he would show me the best hamburger joint in the city. "Real meat, none of that big corporation cardboard crap."

Zen was a very bonny and precocious eight-year-old. Bilingual and top of her class, it was clear that she was the apple of both parents' eyes as they took turns to look through her school books at the work she had done that day.

They treated her to a pizza, but money was tight so they themselves were going back to the hostel to eat. However, they first had to get Zen's mobile phone unblocked.

Money, money. Where are you?

The man in the phone shop was demanding the equivalent of 10 pounds; they only had eight. An argument ensued and the little girl put her face in her hands as though she was about to cry.

Grateful that they had shown me around the city, I began to blurt out that I could I lend them the remainder, but was stopped in my tracks by a glance from Angel. In Britain the prices for such things are fixed, so I had no idea that they were haggling and that Zen was in on the act.

The hostel was split into a pair of 10-bed dormitories, one of which was filled by students from Belgrade University. We returned to find that a late booking meant that the other beds in our room had also been taken.

The place was packed, leaving them with nowhere to be alone as a family on their last night together for two whole months. A difficult existence, indeed.

Earlier, when I asked Sophie what she was going to do in Croatia, she said something about a "bank". As I got to know them, though, I realised that "make bank" was an expression that they both used to signify earning money, so I'm still not sure.

Our new roomates were a gang of labourers who were putting up marquees on the bank on the River Danube in preparation for the Serbian Tennis Open. Amongst them was Goran, an Australian, who had moved to Serbia more than a decade ago, and had now built himself a house in the countryside.

Aussie.

As the after-work beers began to flow, he explained that the others, who he referred to as his "brothers", all originally heralded from a village in Kosovo but had been forced out at gunpoint by ethnic Albanians. There were 400,000 such refugees now living in Serbia, he added.

247 000 of Croats were displaced when Serbs entered in Croatia. Now they are surprised why they were displaced from Kosovo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

"I tell you, it's not like they say on the news," - a remark with which I was becoming very familiar. "These are some of the best, the friendliest people on earth."

They like to justify themselves all the time. They are against foreign media, internet, foreign opinions, they are the only one who are right.

The gang were a collective and either did everything together or, at least, shared the profits. When they had finished erecting the marquees, Goran was planning on transporting some home-grown tomatoes back to the capital in his van.

With Serbia still starved of outside investment and with 30 per cent unemployment and little in the way of social security, you had to be resourceful, he said. "You can't just say 'I'm a welder', for instance, and then sit on your backside until the next welding job comes along."

Goran, himself, had grown up on the wrong side of the tracks in Sydney, had come to his parents' homeland of Serbia to do his military service and then been caught up in the Civil War.

Had he seen any action, I wanted to know.

Straight forward and gregarious up to that point, his happy smile left him for a short moment. "Yeah, I bagged my fair share of terrorists," he said with a nervous laugh. I sensed it was time to change the subject.

After a week-and-a half in Croatia and Serbia the only thing I understand is how much I don't understand. It would possibly take a whole year here before I felt confident enough to be assertive about the problems of the Balkans.

What I will say, however, is that any tendencies to portray them as a straight fight between good guys and bad guys do appear to be wide of the mark. Real life is always far more complicated. Let's leave it at that.

The next day, suffering from a hangover, I went off to find a repair shop to change a broken spoke and one of the brake cables on my bike. Passing through the smart cafes in Belgrade city centre where the beautiful people hang out, I crossed the railway tracks where Romani gypsies live in the sort of appalling conditions that I had not expected to witness until I got to India.

Roma in Serbia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_in_Serbia

"The first reference to the Romani people in Serbia is found in a 1348 document, by which Stefan Uroš IV Dušan of Serbia, Emperor of Serbs and Greeks donated some "Gypsy" slaves to the Monastery of Prizren, in Kosovo."

You can only be a slave when you are a non-Serbian. Some of Roma people escaped in Croatia.

"There are 108,193 Roma in Serbia, but unofficial estimates put the figure at between 450,000 and 500,000."

Serbs don't make correct census, nobody cares about Roma people.

Eventually I found the workmen sitting under a tree, taking a short break. Much back-slapping ensued, and then Goran explained to his boss that I was a Briton who was was cycling to India.

"You are crazier than a Serb," said the boss, before reaching into a carrier bag and handing me a beer.

 

You should avoid professional fighters than. They have different nature.
Have you hunt any Serb with your Croatian friend?

Here is one article about Italians who hunt in Croatia.

Each year, a large number of birds confiscated from Italian hunters by Croatian, Slovenian, or Italian customs officers reveal the unthinkable proportions of illegal hunting in Croatia.

http://www.prijatelji-zivotinja.hr/index.en.php?id=460

Matteo wrote something about obeying the law. I hope that he would like this article. These protected birds are popular in Italian restaurants, maybe in Sestri Levante or Riviera di Levante. Who knows. Nice days I have spend here. Good food, nice sea, pleasant people.

I have heard that Italians like to eat this animal:

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinaceidae

​

Is this true? I have heard that they need to have similar nose like pigs, so that they become eatable. If they have a nose similar to the dog, they are not eatable.

 

Scandal of Serbian footballer Milan Jovanovic in Anderlecht.

Ex-Liverpool FC man Milan Jovanovic to escape long ban for gun salute

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...cape-long-ban-for-gun-salute-100252-29477352/

The former Liverpool frontman secured a point with a last-gasp strike and then the pumped up Serbian charged towards the Bruges fans and aimed a machine gun gesture in their direction.

Jovanovic has been accused of inciting hatred and in Belgian football that carries a maximum penalty of a five-year ban.

However, the Belgian FA are expected to go easy on the 30-year-old at his disciplinary hearing which won’t take place until February.

Jovanovic had to endure chants about Kosovo from the home fans throughout the game and he will get either a short suspension or a fine.

After the game Jovanovic offered no apology for his actions.

“Now I am calm but when I scored I felt like I could run quicker than Usain Bolt,” he said. “I respect their fans but they sent me a very incorrect message over the 90 minutes. I’m not stupid, I listened to what they said so they have to be ready to accept my reaction.”

Jovanovic is attempting to relaunch his career in the Jupiler League after a miserable year at Anfield.

This type of celebration is very popular in Serbian football.

 

Italians are really eating hedgehogs ans some other specific animals.

http://www.euroclubschools.net/Facts-About-Italian-Food(2377085).htm

"Italians eat many things that are not usually eaten in the UK, for example, snails, horse, donkey, hedgehog, goat, guinea pig, rabbit and hare, wild boar, sea urchin, sea snails, octopus, squid, peacock."

Madonna mia, non ci posso credere. If you come in Italian ristorante and if you see in the menu riccio, that's a hedgehog.

I think that Croats don't eat horse, donkey, hedgehog, guinea pig and peacock. Imagine, you see one beautiful peacock and you chase him first until he collapses and than you roast him. Other meals Croats eat.

I assume that Matteo probably has insurance account when he deals with hedgehogs.

 

Last Yugoslavian team video:

[ame="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2216605700430993476&q=the+last+yugoslavian"]The Last Yugoslavian Team[/ame]

Presentation of this DVD, last Yugoslavian generation had a nickname Chileans, because they won World Cup in Chile in 1987.

http://neuroticorange.blogspot.com/2007/04/cats-meow-last-yugoslavian-team-janic.html

You have also some comments here, personal opinions, what do you think about this DVD?

The video was made by Vuk Janic, Bosnian Serb, maybe he wasn't to much objective, pay attention on this.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k18WWhrmLJo"]THE LAST YUGOSLAVIAN SOCCER TEAM : Vuk Janic - YouTube[/ame]

 

On TV, Serb's Violent Past Catches Up With Him

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/13/international/europe/13balkans.html​

 

Croatia also had problems with Serbs on stadium. For example they turned off electricity in Belgrade. It was the match between Yugoslavia - Croatia (qualifications for EURO 2000). It finished 0-0. Croatia was better in this match, that's why Serbs turned off the lights on the stadium, it was longer break until they didn't turned the lights on. Croatian players went cold, they didn't had warm up after. Silly match.

Serbs told that this was an accident. UEFA should do something because of this event, everyone knew that this was an intentional act. Coincidence doesn't exist in Serbian vocabulary.

I have noticed that Serbs have bigger nostalgia for Yugoslav national teams in every sport, in basketball they have a film Once brothers, about the conflict of Croatian Drazen Petrovic and Serbian Vlade Divac during the war. Vlade Divac said really silly things in this film. Petrovic died in car accident. Vlade Divac was the person who throw Croatian flag on World Cup in Argentina 1990. One Croatian fan came after the match on the court, probably Croat from Argentina. When Divac saw this, he throw Croatian flag. But he later justified that he wanted to protect Yugoslavian success, they won the title back then. But he lies, his intention was demonstration of hatred against Croats, later he became Serbian hero because of this act. Serbs see this Croatian fan with Croatian flag as a radical person with nationalistic ideas. But he is just ordinary Croatian fan, patriot, like any fan in other countries. This means that every fan who has his country flag is a radical and nationalistic person. But you can see in comments their radical ideas about burning the checkerboard, nostalgia for Serbian war criminals, etc.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ9WPCn2Vy0"]Divac otima ?ahovnicu usta?i - YouTube[/ame]

In comments you can read:

"Burn the checkerboard, Seselj, Seselj, OLEEE" (Vojislav Seselj is in the Hague prison, because of his war crimes against Croats. He became Serbian role model, guiding light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojislav_Šešelj

Some speculations were made that his family was Croatian in the past, but they converted on Orthodox religion because their priests gave them some land. But it's not confirmed. He demonstrated true hatred against Croats and Catholic religion during and after the war. Serbian prisoners in Hague make a lot of show, they yell, gesticulate, it's visible on TV. They don't respect Hague court because they know that they are guilty, so they don't have nothing to lose (Vojislav Seselj, Ratko Mladic, Goran Hadzic, Radovan Karadzic). They have impressive crime biographies on Wikipedia.

"DIVAC JE PATRIOTA" Divac is a patriot.

Pali demokrato (Burn democrat).

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=rQ9WPCn2Vy0

After this football match in Belgrade Yugoslavia (Serbia) came in Zagreb, their players also do incidents there, they showed three fingers to Croatian fans, fans also went in euphoria. I also couldn't hear Croatian national anthem in Belgrade, you could hear only frenetic "boos".

Also Serbian player got the red card, I think that Mirkovic got the card after incident with Robert Jarni. Mirkovic fouled Jarni, than Jarni came to him so that he asks him about this foul. Mirkovic was on the ground and he pressed testicles of Robert Jarni and Jarni was fouled than, he went on the ground also. Very insane foul if you ask me.

Same thing happened with Bosnia and Herzegovina somewhere in Bosnia. It was a friendly match, I have putted here this video, on HSK Zrinjski Mostar Presentation thread.

Nobody could hear Croatian national anthem. They also sing: "Kill, Kill Croats". But Croats won 5-3. Very weird match. Bosnia and Herzegovina didn't won against Croatia. Also Serbia never won against Croats. Only Macedonia won in Macedonia, but Croatia was on the first place anyway and the court was so bad, you could see only dirt, it rained, it was like in the agricultural field.

Against Greece I also don't expect that I cold hear Croatian national anthem. Because they like Serbs more. Serbian origins are from Servia, Greece. They also have orthodox brotherhood, Paok - Partizan Belgrade for example.

I also expect a lot of Serbs in Greece, they come often to cheer against Croatia, even though Croatia doesn't play against Serbia. They sing "Kill, Kill Croat" mostly.

Also Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovina celebrated Turkish victory like they had won. They never participated in any bigger competition. They played only in extra qualifications against Portugal and they lost because Serbian player Zvjezdan Misimovic boycotted Croatian coach on Bosnian bench Miroslav Blazevic. Misimovic pretended that he had an injure, but after this match he played on great level for his German club Wolfsburg. Miroslav Blazevic said after he resigned: "This Bosnia and Herzegovina is a miracle, they had a unique chance to qualify, but how can you win, when their best player acts that he is injured, I really wanted to help that Bosnia qualifies in South Africa, I wanted to unite the nation".

Croatian coach made the greatest Bosnian result. He also had an desire to make peace three nations, so that they all support Bosnia and Herzegovina. Blazevic is also from Bosnia, city Travnik. He had altruistic dreams that all three nations will support Bosnia and Herzegovina, but everyone knew that nothing will happen.

Croats of Bosnia and Herzegovina don't have any feelings for Bosnia and Herzegovina national teams in every sports. They all support only Croatia. Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina supports only Serbia i every sport.

In the group phase of qualifications Bosnia and Herzegovina was second.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification#Final_positions_.28First_Round.29

Spain was to strong. But Turkey and Belgium were also strong when you measure them with Bosnia. Croatia needed one point to go in extra qualifications. After this group phase Bosnia played against Portugal. Portugal won 1-0 in both matches, but in Portugal Bosnia had some nice chances.
Portugal was so weak than, everyone expected that Bosnia will win in Bosnia at least 2-0, but than Misimovic played his role and some other players didn't want to play on high level. Bosnian federation probably wanted to get rid of Croatian coach, Muslim fans wouldn't be happy if Croat makes the best Bosnian result.

Zvjezdan Misimovic, Bosnian Serb, he didn't had quality for Serbian team, because of that he plays for Bosnia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zvjezdan_Misimović

"Under the next head coach Ćiro Blažević during 2010 World Cup qualification process, Misimović asserted himself as the team's undisputed leader on the pitch, displaying great playmaking abilities and leadership qualities. His fine performances culminated with a hat-trick in a 7–0 victory over Estonia. Bosnia finished the group in second place thus qualifying for the playoffs against Portugal in November 2009.

"However, the qualifying campaign ended on a sour note both for Misimović personally and for the team. Misimović had a poor outing in the first leg away in Lisbon and was widely criticized for his sub-par performance even by the head coach Blažević himself, who publicly blasted him for lack of contribution. Two days later (and two days before the 18 November return leg), Misimović was ruled out by medical staff due to an apparent knee injury he picked up during the first leg."

"The controversy arose three days after that on 21 November when he played the full 90 minutes for VfL Wolfsburg in Bundesliga leading to veiled accusations in the Bosnian media that he faked the injury to get back at Blažević."

"Head coach Blažević went further, directly accusing Misimović of sabotaging him."

"Blažević even went as far as alluding to Misimović's Serbian ethnicity; suggesting a conspiracy on instructions from Republika Srpska Prime Minister Milorad Dodik and the Serbian lobby because "Republika Srpska would lose everything if Bosnia qualified for the World Cup".

"When informed of Blažević's comments, stunned Misimović responded he would not play for Bosnia as long as Blažević is the head coach, and further accused Blažević of scapegoating him in order to deflect attention from the fact that the team was thoroughly outplayed by Portugal in both matches."

"Even though he stated his intention to leave even before Misimović's latest words, Blažević's response was a claim that he will leave the post because "Misimović is more important to this team than I am".

"Blažević then suddenly announced that he and Misimović had supposedly resolved their differences after Blažević apparently called Misimović to congratulate the birth of his son, but this reconciliation was later denied by Misimović."

"Blažević even announced his intent to travel to Wolfsburg for the Champions League group stage match between VfL Wolfsburg and Manchester United in order to visit Misimović personally, but ended up not doing so. Within days Blažević resigned his post with Bosnia, revealing that he took an offer from China, and in his parting shot once again singled out Misimović as the reason why Bosnia is not going to the World Cup."

Bosnia again has a nice chance to qualify on EURO 2012. Group D.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2012_qualifying#Qualifying_group_stage

But now they will play 100% because they have Muslim coach Safet Susic. Majority of players are Muslims. Interesting thing is that Croatian club Siroki Brijeg is on the first place, but nobody plays for BiH national team.

Players of Siroki Brijeg don't want to play for Bosnia and Herzegovina. They don't have quality for Croatian NT, so they would rather play on club level.

Assistant coaches are Serbian Sredojevic and Muslim Baljic. Muslim surnames Baljic and Susic sound more Croatian because they took Croatian system of surnames, they are shorter than Serbian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_national_football_team

Fans of Bosnia and Herzegovina are mostly savages, they want to destroy fence, they sing ugly words against opponents. Weird nation.

"In addition support also comes from local football fans, namely "Horde Zla" (FK Sarajevo), "The Maniacs" (FK Željezničar Sarajevo), "Red Army Mostar" (FK Velež Mostar), "Robijaši" (NK Čelik Zenica) and "Fukare" (FK Sloboda Tuzla)."

Horde Zla means Group of Evil. You have Maniacs, Red Army. Robijasi are Convicts, because in Zenica existed large prison. Maybe still exists I don't know. There was a song, very popular about this city Zenica and this prison.

http://www.lyricsvip.com/Zabranjeno-Pušenje/Zenica-Blues-Lyrics.html

The name of this band is Zabranjeno pusenje (eng. No Smoking). This song has also Muslim words.

U Zenicu kada pođem ja
Prati me pet-šest drotova

Okružni sudija rek'o dvanaest godina
Dvanaest godina strogog zatvora (x2)

Tužna je moja sudbina
Ženu mi krećo Hakija
Krećo Hakija presudila mu čakija
Ne razumiješ ti to druže sudija
Krećo Hakija presudila mu čakija
Ne razumiješ ti to druže sudija

Zenico mrzim svaki kamen tvoj
Zbog tebe ja mrzim život svoj
Ko preživi dvanaest godina u K.P. domu Zenica
Taj je pravi hadžija
Ko preživi dvanaest godina u K.P. domu Zenica
Taj je pravi hadžija

Hvala, Mujo!

Raduje me jedna istina
Iz K.P. doma vratit ću se ja
Ali Hakija nikad neće sa Bara
Sa Bara se niko ne vraća
Ali Hakija nikad neće sa Bara
Sa Bara se niko ne vraća


"In Zenica, when I go
Follow me five to six cops

District Judge said twelve years
Twelve years of rigorous imprisonment (x2)

Sad is my fate
My wife is touching Hakija
Hakija touched, ruled him čakija (Swiss knife)
You do not understand my comrade judge
Hakija touched, ruled him čakija (Swiss knife)
You do not understand my comrade judge

Zenica I hate your every rock
Because of you I hate my life
Whoever survives the age of twelve in punishment prison home Zenica
This is a true pilgrim
Whoever survives the age of twelve in punishment prison home Zenica
He is a true pilgrim

Thank you, Mujo!

It pleases me to a true
From punishment prison home I returned home I
Hakija will never be from Bara
From Bara no one returns
Hakija will never be from Bara
From Bara no one returns"​

* Hakija is a Muslim male name.
* Cakija is a Turkish word for small Swiss knife. This verse calls for Hakija murder because Hakija touched his wife when he was in prison. Really stupid song, depressive, violent and boring to Google Translator. He can't translate every word.
* Hadzija is a Turkish word, Google translates this word as pilgrim, I am not sure is this correct, I don't know other word for hadzija.
* K. P. means Kazneno Popravni. Kazna means punishment, Popravni means something like education because of bad behavior. Minors go in Popravni dom, when they had problems with behavior, violence.
* Mujo is a Muslim name, Mujo and Haso are objects of many Bosnian jokes, fictional characters.

Really weird song. Last 4,5 verses I don't understand when I read.

Zabranjeno pusenje is a punk-rock band. They probably use some things to get their fruitful inspiration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabranjeno_Pušenje

Band is from Sarajevo, mostly made of Serbs and Muslims. This band also had an concert in Montevideo, Uruguay, they came with Muslim Emir Kusturica, who changed his nationality and now he is a Serb/Orthodox. Today's Muslims have origins of Croats and Serbs.

Croats and Serbs wanted to rise against Ottoman Empire in Bosnia and Herzegovina:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzegovinian_rebellion

This group Zabranjeno pusenje changed their names so that nobody can tell their nationality, but one member escaped in Croatia, Zagreb during the war Davor Sucic. He is probably Croat, or mixed ethnicity.

Davor Sucic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejo_Sexon

Their songs:

Anarhija all over Baščaršija (Anarchy all over Square). Bascarsija is a Turkish word for the square. Croats yse the word Trg for square.

Zenica blues
Šeki is on the road again
Balada o Pišonji i Žugi (Ballad about Pisonja and Zuga). Pisonja is a term for the man who goes in the bathroom to urinate. I don't know who is Zuga.

Pišonja i Žuga u paklu droge (Pisonja and Zuga in the hell of drugs)
Dok jezdiš ka Alemanji (Alemanji - Germany). I don't know what jezdis means. Maybe this means "While you are travelling in Germany".
Lutka sa naslovne strane (Doll from front page)
Straža pored Prizrena (Guard in the Prizren). Prizren is a city in Kosovo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prizren

Not very good for living.

 

Google congratulated today (8. October), 20 years of Croatian independence and freedom since Croatia left from Yugoslav occupation. If you insert www.Google.hr, you can see this congratulation gesture.

Google recognizes Croatia as tolerant, cultural, historic, filled with beautiful tradition and many natural beauties.

​

But this isn't the first time that Google remembered Croatia.

Same thing happened on 7. July 2011. because on that day Croatian famous writer Miroslav Krleza was born and Google displayed a character from Krleza's poetic book: Ballad of Petrica Kerempuh (cro. Balade Petrice Kerempuha).

​

Google nurtures only good values and recognition to Croatia and Croats is one of them. Google supports Croatian independence because this independence is deserved in every aspect. After all Google has complete knowledge about everything.

 

Bosnian thread has a lot issues. Offensive talk against Croatian clubs in Bosnia and Herzegovina, they call Zrinjski as Svinjski (Pigs). History proved that many Croats and Serbs were converters on Islam. Check the list of viziers of Bosnia, in beginning they all were Croats, Serbs, Greeks, Albanians (Catholics and Orthodox). Bosnian king Tvrtko was Croat, of Croatian family. Also a fact. Bosnian language is Croatian language, Bosniak surnames have Croatian or Serbian system. They also need to clean Bosnian thread. It's easy to criticize other threads. I don't feel that I should write on Bosnian thread, it's useless. I can be a role model for people who don't like Croatian thread, I described everything with the proofs. If you don't like the idea that most of Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina were Croats, Serbs, I can't help you with this. Muslims of Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Serbia, Sandzak are also products of medieval conversions. It's a historic fact. There were also some Bogumil people in Bosnia, but they converted on Islam. Many Croats and Serbs accepted Islam because of force or their personal political interests.

Learn some history, than write.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina

Croats, Serbs, Greeks, Albanians, some Italians who became Muslims during Ottoman Empire, they were on high positions, as converters, sell-outs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ottoman_Grand_Viziers

Huge amount of conversion existed. I am also for football here, but football is connected very much with other things. Muslims of Bosnia declared Bosnia and Herzegovina as Turkey 2. I found 10,15 videos on this theme. Enjoy watching real nationalistic messages that don't have any connections with football. Carmelino knows a lot, just ask. I started this thread with football, with football we will continue.

 

It's not idiotic, you and your friends are being offensive. Serbs did not arrived, I wrote about this. Whole Bosnia and Herzegovina was Croatia, look the maps, Serbia had Rasa and Duklja only in the South. Serbs came in Bosnia probably after 1389 and their battle in Kosovo. Everybody knows this, but king Tvrtko had also some Serbian heritage, same as Croatian heritage.

Catholics of Bosnia and Herzegovina are Croats or some other minority, Muslims are today's Bosniaks, this name exists one decade maybe.

Can you translate the word krstjani? Krst means cross. Krstjani means Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Church

I hope that you don't think that Wikipedia is a Croatian product and that Croats implement there anything that is good for them?

"Bosnia was on the boundary between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. The Croats to the West and Hungarians to the North embraced Roman Catholicism, while the Serbian lands to the east embraced Eastern Orthodoxy."

Croats implemented civilization in Bosnia and Herzegovina through literature, culture, language history, Croats with Austro - Hungarian Monarchy were the nations who Ottoman Empire could not beat, otherwise they would conquer Vienna and the rest of Europe. This is objective history.

How can you explain the list of Bosnian Ottoman viziers? First they were Turkish people, after this they found alliance with converters and they put them in charge of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Me - nationalist? I am just ordinary history presenter. You are just seeing what you want to see. You can dedicate in writing your national anthem lyrics if you have so much tradition like any other neighbor nation. Bosnian flag - EU flag, Bosnian coat of arms "lilies" - French system of coat of arms, currency "konvertibilna marka", like German/Deutsch Mark, language - almost identical to Croatian, you just implemented many Turkish words so that you can say: "We are diferent". Croats were one of the first European nations who had their system of surnames, you copied our system. Ottoman Empire tried to convert us in Bosnia and Herzegovina through centuries. Human rights did not exist, people died for their beliefs.

Today's Muslims have Bogumil heritage, but they also have Croatian and Serbian heritage. Same thing is in Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, they were all consequence of Ottoman Empire. Before Ottoman Empire Islam religion did not existed in Europe, except Arabs in Spain, Portugal.

In Bosnia and Herzegovina Franciscans regulated everyday life before medieval times and they protected Croatian identity in Bosnia and Herzegovina during Ottoman Empire, after and today.

I don't see how am I misguided? Can you prove that today's Muslims don't have nothing to Croats or Serbs, but especially to Croats, because they were first settlers in Western Balkans, Bulgarians were rulers on the Eastern Balkans.

Can you present your heritage here? Your view, I would be happy to see tour tradition. I assume that in Bosnia and Herzegovina exist three truths and that's impossible.

Nobody mentions here Bogumils even though it's Western source:

http://www.nato.int/SFOR/indexinf/117/p03a/chapter1.htm

First king that you can meet is Croatian king Tomislav:

http://www.nato.int/SFOR/indexinf/118/p03a/chapter2.htm

Bogumils were Bulgarian Christian sect:

http://www.nato.int/SFOR/indexinf/118/p03a/chapter2.htm

With this I agree completely:

"Bogomilism was eradicated in Bulgaria and Byzantium in the 13th century, but thrived in Bosnia until the Ottoman Empire gained control of the region in 1463. Both Catholics and Orthodox persecuted the Bogomils as heretics. The early pressures by its Catholic and Orthodox neighbours drew Bosnia to Bogomilism. Later, with the introduction of Ottoman rule, Bosnians were often more susceptible for conversion to Islam since they were not friends of either the Roman Catholic or Serb Orthodox churches, and also to continue to avoid the Catholic/Orthodox trap set by their regional neighbours."

Muslims have Bogumil heritage, I wrote about them also, but there were many conversions of Croats and Serbs.

First king of Bosnia was Stjepan Tvrtko, these names sound very Croatian, because he was Croat. He had a title: ban, Croatian title, he was the son of Jelena Subic, she was the member of Croatian noble family, Subic-Zrinski (that you call today Svinjski (Pigs) because of your nationalistic beliefs).

You pick up several of your friends here and you want to say some propaganda speeches. Here is your Western source, they say the same as English Wikipedia.

King Stjepan Tvrtko has Croatian and Serbian heritage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tvrtko_I_of_Bosnia

Jelena Subic (mother of Stjepan tvrtko) was the granddaughter of Croatian ban and the ruler of WHOLE Bosnia and Herzegovina Pavao Subic I. Bribirski.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_I_Šubić_of_Bribir

His title was ban of Croatia and Lord of all of Bosnia. Try to decline this? Bosnia and Herzegovina are Croatian historic regions, everybody else came as refugees (Serbs), or converters to Islam (Bulgarian sect Bogumils, Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs). Hisrtory (Western, Croatian) is on Croatian side.

Can you decline that Pavao Subic I. Bribirski wasn't the Lord of whole Bosnia? Give us some facts, don't just say that Croats are nationalistic people, you can't equalize patriotism with nationalism.

List of Bosnia and Herzegovina rulers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Bosnia

Croats and Serbs I see here, after Ottoman Empire came and they converted Croats, Serbs, Bogumils accepted Islam.

House of Hrvatinic, can you translate this family please, Hrvat means Croat.