Cristiano ronaldo vs alfredo di stefano who is the greatest Real Madrid player of all time

Edhardy · Jan 13, 2019

https://spielverlagerung.com/2014/09/10/in-depth-analysis-alfredo-di-stefano/

A little something about Alfredo Di Stefano

PuckVanHeel · Jan 14, 2019

poetgooner said: ↑

I would have a problem as well if someone implied that Alfredo Di Stefano was the reason for RM's domination in the 1950-60s, when he also had a completely stacked team to play with.
Click to expand...

Ariaga II said: ↑

Sure, Bernabeu was instrumental, but we're talking about the greatest player here.

That said, I'm hard-pressed to think which other player they could have signed that would have earned them 5 ECs. Without that one mega-player, they would have been looking at Barca's taillights throughout the 50s.

Settle down there, buddy. We're talking about who is the greatest player in RM-history, not who was the better or more consistent player. And when discussing the greatest, the creator of that greatness is obviously a major factor.

The other major factor would be who brought home more gold, and it's a washout.
Click to expand...

Even though one cannot explain the Real Madrid phenomenon without mentioning Di Stefano, I think there are things to say for @poetgooner his comments on the previous page (which are, before it gets overlooked, even-handed for both CR7 and ADS).

You are right the team got more stacked and dominant with the years, but this is also reflected in the results. In the first ADS + Gento season (1953-54) Real Madrid got only one point more as the last season before them (1952-53), and two points more as the 2nd last season before their arrival (1951-52). Real Madrid lost the last match of the 1953-54 season when they were already crowned champions the round before, but same applies for the previous two seasons, and in 1951-52 they even lost two of the three remaining games.

Over a longer period of time we see the difference between the first five ADS seasons (+ buddies) and the last two before him is 4.1 points, thus the team got a bit better over time (Rial, Marquitos arrived summer 1954).

Furthermore, Real Madrid was always a semi final finisher in the then very important and longer storied Copa del Generallisimo between 1949 and 1956 (they got stuck at the QF in the first season ADS was eligible to play, in 1957, but that's football), which suggests a certain steady base level of the non-foreign players.

Years later in his career Di Stefano struggled with injuries and Real Madrid remained utterly dominant and unbeaten at home for many games in a row (120+ games).

Now you have a good comment about him recommending Rial, but one aspect of this was rather more prosaic. That is: only one 'real' foreigner was allowed to play and ADS knew Rial had Spanish heritage thus qualified as an Oriundo (this whole foreigner, nationalization and oriundi thing was btw a major lever with which the Franco regime could steer things and FC Barcelona uncovered a major corruption/nepotism scandal in 1972 around this).

Even so, the stadium, the facilities and the whole scouting apparatus was absolutely without peer in their time. Just as the vision to collect an international galaxy of stars, and have each major market and demographic covered.

I mentioned it before but Real Madrid did in fact have special regulatory exemptions, such as being the only team allowed to have more than 25 players under contract (source: the 1962 'Real Madrid book of football', as well as newspapers).

Whether Di Stefano was immediately that 'mega player' is sometimes doubted by folks as Vegan10 and it is at least true ADS his transfer fee was high, but 30% below the world record (a world record that increased with 40% just a few months later, with some other expensive transfers happening too). He wasn't seen as the best in the world yet when the transfer happened, with Argentine players laying good in the market (ofc this false superiority complex was brutally punctured at the 1958WC, with Nestor Rossi, Labruna et al. playing there...). This aspect of course reflects well on Bernabeu/Saporta his astute judgement and strategic vision.

Like I said, I don't think it is possible to explain the Real Madrid phenomenon without mentioning Di Stefano's role and catalystic influence, but there is something in poetgooner's comments too.

I also think some of the possible main objections against CR7 (maybe not always the best player each EC campaign; consistently lucky refereeing) can as easily be applied to 1950s Real Madrid. I think that can be done more even-handed as is occasionally the case. Carlito86 does have kind of a case Puskas was maybe 'better' in 1959-60, Kopa possibly in better form at 1957-58 (not sure) etc.

Either way, I've explained my position (the comparison with CR7) at the first few pages of this thread. As said there, that they were already on the way up is shown by international meetings as this (playing against Di Stefano).

carlito86 · Jan 14, 2019

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Even though one cannot explain the Real Madrid phenomenon without mentioning Di Stefano, I think there are things to say for @poetgooner his comments on the previous page (which are, before it gets overlooked, even-handed for both CR7 and ADS).

You are right the team got more stacked and dominant with the years, but this is also reflected in the results. In the first ADS + Gento season (1953-54) Real Madrid got only one point more as the last season before them (1952-53), and two points more as the 2nd last season before their arrival (1951-52). Real Madrid lost the last match of the 1953-54 season when they were already crowned champions the round before, but same applies for the previous two seasons, and in 1951-52 they even lost two of the three remaining games.

Over a longer period of time we see the difference between the first five ADS seasons (+ buddies) and the last two before him is 4.1 points, thus the team got a bit better over time (Rial, Marquitos arrived summer 1954).

Furthermore, Real Madrid was always a semi final finisher in the then very important and longer storied Copa del Generallisimo between 1949 and 1956 (they got stuck at the QF in the first season ADS was eligible to play, in 1957, but that's football), which suggests a certain steady base level of the non-foreign players.

Years later in his career Di Stefano struggled with injuries and Real Madrid remained utterly dominant and unbeaten at home for many games in a row (120+ games).

Now you have a good comment about him recommending Rial, but one aspect of this was rather more prosaic. That is: only one 'real' foreigner was allowed to play and ADS knew Rial had Spanish heritage thus qualified as an Oriundo (this whole foreigner, nationalization and oriundi thing was btw a major lever with which the Franco regime could steer things and FC Barcelona uncovered a major corruption/nepotism scandal in 1972 around this).

Even so, the stadium, the facilities and the whole scouting apparatus was absolutely without peer in their time. Just as the vision to collect an international galaxy of stars, and have each major market and demographic covered.

I mentioned it before but Real Madrid did in fact have special regulatory exemptions, such as being the only team allowed to have more than 25 players under contract (source: the 1962 'Real Madrid book of football', as well as newspapers).

Whether Di Stefano was immediately that 'mega player' is sometimes doubted by folks as Vegan10 and it is at least true ADS his transfer fee was high, but 30% below the world record (a world record that increased with 40% just a few months later, with some other expensive transfers happening too). He wasn't seen as the best in the world yet when the transfer happened, with Argentine players laying good in the market (ofc this false superiority complex was brutally punctured at the 1958WC, with Nestor Rossi, Labruna et al. playing there...). This aspect of course reflects well on Bernabeu/Saporta his astute judgement and strategic vision.

Like I said, I don't think it is possible to explain the Real Madrid phenomenon without mentioning Di Stefano's role and catalystic influence, but there is something in poetgooner's comments too.

I also think some of the possible main objections against CR7 (maybe not always the best player each EC campaign; consistently lucky refereeing) can as easily be applied to 1950s Real Madrid. I think that can be done more even-handed as is occasionally the case. Carlito86 does have kind of a case Puskas was maybe 'better' in 1959-60, Kopa possibly in better form at 1957-58 (not sure) etc.

Either way, I've explained my position (the comparison with CR7) at the first few pages of this thread. As said there, that they were already on the way up is shown by international meetings as this (playing against Di Stefano).
Click to expand...

puck I would like to know what evidential basis there is for the often made claim that ronaldo wasn’t the best player in all 4 champions league winning campaigns for Real Madrid

I agree he was more dominant in certain years than others (2013/14 probably being the top of the scale and 2015/16 being the bottom)

Ronaldo is usually unanimously considered the best Real Madrid champions league player till the quarterfinals of the champions league
In the 2nd leg SF and final of 15/16 he was either recently back from injury (SF) or poor(in the final)

In the SF and final of 2017/18 he was poor but up to the QF no Real Madrid player was near him.
There are a lot of loud unsubstantiated myths spouted by other posters here regarding ronaldo underperforming in certain champions fixtures

One of the most famous being:
Ronaldo was officially the worst player on the pitch in the 2013 4-1 SF loss to Dortmund

What constitutes as being official and what doesn’t because it seems (and I’m going of on bit of a tangent here ) ronaldo being the alleged worst Real Madrid player
In important big ko fixtures is generally where the bulk of myths stems from

Do you have to be utterly dominant in every single game during a major competition to be recognised as the best player of that competition?
Even Diego maradona did not do that in 1986

Generally speaking the criteria being used to judge Cristiano by in large an unfair and biased one

Messi was clearly out played by Neymar in the 2016/17 champions campaign for example(particularly in the KO stage but also in the groupstage where he orchestrated the demolition job on Celtic)

I don’t ever remember an example where it was so patently obvious ronaldo wasn’t Real Madrid’s best performer over the course of a champions league season

Danko · Jan 14, 2019

Ronaldo's stats in the KO stages of the CL would make you think he dominates every time. The truth is in the five winning CL runs, he only made a winning impact in one SF (2017) and one and a half final (2017 and sort of 2008).

As a complete run, only 2017 is GOAT level.

CR vs ADS is a good debate. I would go with ADS because he was more of an all-around player. Creativity on top of great scoring beats great scoring alone.

carlito86 · Jan 14, 2019

Danko said: ↑

Ronaldo's stats in the KO stages of the CL would make you think he dominates every time. The truth is in the five winning CL runs, he only made a winning impact in one SF (2017) and one and a half final (2017 and sort of 2008).

As a complete run, only 2017 is GOAT level.

CR vs ADS is a good debate. I would go with ADS because he was more of an all-around player. Creativity on top of great scoring beats great scoring alone.
Click to expand...

Only made an impact in one 1 SF?
2008/09(2 goals+1 assist out of 4 team goals=no impact)
2011/12(2 goals+ 1 assist out of 3 team goals=no impact)
2013/14(2 goals +1 pre assist out of 5 team goals=no impact)
Logic?

Cristiano Ronaldo has 44 assists in the champions league proper(not taking into account the dozens if not hundreds of chances created he has accumulated in his CL career)
Creativity without scoring isn’t an accurate representation of Cristiano Ronaldo

If there is a legitimate debate to be had on whether or not ronaldo or ADS is Real Madrid’s greatest it indirectly proves that Ronaldo is a demonstrably greater player

Ronaldos Manchester United career blows away anything ADS did pre Real Madrid and his NT career blows away anything he did with Spain
I would argue (and so would many of Di Stéfanos contemporaries) that ronaldo had matched the legacy of ADS at Real Madrid

Taking all things into account, I wouldn’t have an issue placing them on an equal footing on the condition that ronaldos exploits outside Madrid aren’t treated as though they never happened.
(I realise 10 years ago isn’t exactly the other day but if we are frank ronaldo was a legend of the game before he even went to Real Madrid)

ADS became a legend at Real Madrid (his legacy is intrinsically linked to Los Blancos)

Danko · Jan 14, 2019

carlito86 said: ↑

Only made an impact in one 1 SF?
2008/09(2 goals+1 assist out of 4 team goals=no impact)
2011/12(2 goals+ 1 assist out of 3 team goals=no impact)
2013/14(2 goals +1 pre assist out of 5 team goals=no impact)
Logic?

Cristiano Ronaldo has 44 assists in the champions league proper(not taking into account the dozens if not hundreds of chances created he has accumulated in his CL career)
Creativity without scoring isn’t an accurate representation of Cristiano Ronaldo

If there is a legitimate debate to be had on whether or not ronaldo or ADS is Real Madrid’s greatest it indirectly proves that Ronaldo is a demonstrably greater player

Ronaldos Manchester United career blows away anything ADS did pre Real Madrid and his NT career blows away anything he did with Spain
I would argue (and so would many of Di Stéfanos contemporaries) that ronaldo had matched the legacy of ADS at Real Madrid

Taking all things into account, I wouldn’t have an issue placing them on an equal footing on the condition that ronaldos exploits outside Madrid aren’t treated as though they never happened.
(I realise 10 years ago isn’t exactly the other day but if we are frank ronaldo was a legend of the game before he even went to Real Madrid)

ADS became a legend at Real Madrid (his legacy is intrinsically linked to Los Blancos)
Click to expand...

I was talking about the 5 CL runs in which he won it all..

Ronaldo doesn't have 44 CL assists. He has 39 as per UEFA.com which is the official source. And assists aren't even a very good measure of creation. Di Stefano as a creative force and builder of play was several tier superior to Ronaldo. You and I both know that. It doesn't mean Ronaldo is a horrible playmaker just that ADS was much better.

Legend is a relative term. Ronaldo wasn't considered a top 20 all time let alone top 5 by anyone before he came to Real Madrid. And as recently as three years ago, you would be very hard-pressed to people who would put him in the top 20 all time. On the other hand, Di Stefano is a consensus top 10 of all time. You make it sound like Ronaldo was a GOAT level player before Real Madrid... he wasn't. He has no major records in England and his CL run with Man U which was the highlight of his career there was good but it wasn't exactly a legendary one either. Real Madrid made both of their legacies. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.

carlito86 · Jan 14, 2019

Danko said: ↑

I was talking about the 5 CL runs in which he won it all..

Ronaldo doesn't have 44 CL assists. He has 39 as per UEFA.com which is the official source. And assists aren't even a very good measure of creation. Di Stefano as a creative force and builder of play was several tier superior to Ronaldo. You and I both know that. It doesn't mean Ronaldo is a horrible playmaker just that ADS was much better.

Legend is a relative term. Ronaldo wasn't considered a top 20 all time let alone top 5 by anyone before he came to Real Madrid. And as recently as three years ago, you would be very hard-pressed to people who would put him in the top 20 all time. On the other hand, Di Stefano is a consensus top 10 of all time. You make it sound like Ronaldo was a GOAT level player before Real Madrid... he wasn't. He has no major records in England and his CL run with Man U which was the highlight of his career there was good but it wasn't exactly a legendary one either. Real Madrid made both of their legacies. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.
Click to expand...

Three years ago You would be hard pressed to find Barcelona fanboys who would put ronaldo in the top 20
All time
I agree totally

I was actually talking about people’s opinions who generally hold weight in these kinds of discussions
Once again you are being dishonest,so dishonest in fact that are applying double standards to ronaldo in the very same post
44 assists in the CL (a record I might add)as per transfermarket isn’t according to you indicative of being that special creatively

Yet on the other hand ronaldo wasn’t all that special at Manchester United because he didn’t leave any records(completely unsubstantiated claim
But we’ll get to that later)

So effectively what you are saying is when ronaldo leaves holds all time records pertaining to his creativity they mean nothing
When he “allegedly” leaves no records in England that also proves he wasn’t all that special
(I wrote allegedly in inverted commas it is because ronaldo did actually score 42 goals in 2007/08 playing as a midfielder which remains a record in English football history)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2294962/Cristiano-Ronaldo-tops-George-Bests-record.html

Btw when I say all time legend I’m talking in relative terms here(you alluded to this aswell)
He wasn’t exactly prime Johan Cruyff at Manchester United but he was by 2009 widely regarded a top 30-40 all timer(which is a legend by any stretch of definition)
A player who’s club exploits at 24 years old surpassed those of Rivaldo,figo,zidane,Romario,Ronaldinho,stoichkov etc
These are facts that can easily be substantiated

schwuppe · Jan 14, 2019

Danko said: ↑

Ronaldo's stats in the KO stages of the CL would make you think he dominates every time. The truth is in the five winning CL runs, he only made a winning impact in one SF (2017) and one and a half final (2017 and sort of 2008).

As a complete run, only 2017 is GOAT level.

CR vs ADS is a good debate. I would go with ADS because he was more of an all-around player. Creativity on top of great scoring beats great scoring alone.
Click to expand...

While technically not scoring the game winner, I'd say he did fine in the SF '14 and pretty much all QFs though.

poetgooner · Jan 15, 2019

Danko said: ↑

Legend is a relative term. Ronaldo wasn't considered a top 20 all time let alone top 5 by anyone before he came to Real Madrid. And as recently as three years ago, you would be very hard-pressed to people who would put him in the top 20 all time. On the other hand, Di Stefano is a consensus top 10 of all time. You make it sound like Ronaldo was a GOAT level player before Real Madrid... he wasn't. He has no major records in England and his CL run with Man U which was the highlight of his career there was good but it wasn't exactly a legendary one either. Real Madrid made both of their legacies. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.
Click to expand...

ADS is top 10 all-timer because of his time with Real Madrid. The same is true for CR7. If he was on the cusp of top 20 three years ago, he is arguably top 10 all-timer now in many people's lists. Winning 3 UCLS and 3 Balloon D'ors in a row (whether you think he deserves it or not), winning a EURO, and breaking all kinds of records will do that for you.

Danko · Jan 15, 2019

carlito86 said: ↑

Three years ago You would be hard pressed to find Barcelona fanboys who would put ronaldo in the top 20
All time
I agree totally

I was actually talking about people’s opinions who generally hold weight in these kinds of discussions
Once again you are being dishonest,so dishonest in fact that are applying double standards to ronaldo in the very same post
44 assists in the CL (a record I might add)as per transfermarket isn’t according to you indicative of being that special creatively

Yet on the other hand ronaldo wasn’t all that special at Manchester United because he didn’t leave any records(completely unsubstantiated claim
But we’ll get to that later)

So effectively what you are saying is when ronaldo leaves holds all time records pertaining to his creativity they mean nothing
When he “allegedly” leaves no records in England that also proves he wasn’t all that special
(I wrote allegedly in inverted commas it is because ronaldo did actually score 42 goals in 2007/08 playing as a midfielder which remains a record in English football history)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2294962/Cristiano-Ronaldo-tops-George-Bests-record.html

Btw when I say all time legend I’m talking in relative terms here(you alluded to this aswell)
He wasn’t exactly prime Johan Cruyff at Manchester United but he was by 2009 widely regarded a top 30-40 all timer(which is a legend by any stretch of definition)
A player who’s club exploits at 24 years old surpassed those of Rivaldo,figo,zidane,Romario,Ronaldinho,stoichkov etc
These are facts that can easily be substantiated
Click to expand...

You're either arguing semantics or taking my statements out of context. Ronaldo is not nearly as good of a playmaker as Di Stefano was.

carlito86 · Jan 15, 2019

Danko said: ↑

You're either arguing semantics or taking my statements out of context. Ronaldo is not nearly as good of a playmaker as Di Stefano was.
Click to expand...

And Di Stéfano isn’t nearly as good a goalscorer as Madrid ronaldo
Neither is he as good a dribbler as Manchester United ronaldo
Both versions of ronaldo where top 1 or 2 player in the world material

Which proves my point:
DI Stéfano became Di Stéfano at Real Madrid
Ronaldo has been a World beater since he was 21 years old,never dropping out of the top 5 best players in 12 years

Do some research and show me evidence of ADS when he was a CF/forward in his early years ever being considered greater than Moreno,Pedernera,Labruna and others in Argentina
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/alfredo-di-stéfano-career-match-reports.1994303/

Like I said Cristiano ronaldo vs ADS at Real Madrid is a legitimate and interesting debate
However ronaldos legacy isnt entirely dependent on his Real Madrid exploits in the same way ADS is
CR left a legacy for his country and Manchester United and is very arguably the best ever player for both(most definitely for Portugal and arguably for Manchester United)

Which lasting legacy did ADS leave outside of Real Madrid?

danko You are totally misrepresenting my argument.
since when did I claim CR was as good a playmaker as ADS?
More importantly Since when did CR have to be as good a playmaker as ADS to match his legacy

If they were actually comparable in goalscoring you would have a point but the truth is ronaldo obliterated rauls record in 433 less matches

He surpassed Di stefanos goal
Record in 100 less games and in a considerably more defensive era
So yeah try and be a bit balanced when your comparing the two
ADS has his advantages but let’s not pretend like ronaldo hasn’t got any either

Danko · Jan 15, 2019

carlito86 said: ↑

And Di Stéfano isn’t nearly as good a goalscorer as Madrid ronaldo
Neither is he as good a dribbler as Manchester United ronaldo
Both versions of ronaldo where top 1 or 2 player in the world material

Which proves my point:
DI Stéfano became Di Stéfano at Real Madrid
Ronaldo has been a World beater since he was 21 years old,never dropping out of the top 5 best players in 12 years

Do some research and show me evidence of ADS when he was a CF/forward in his early years ever being considered greater than Moreno,Pedernera,Labruna and others in Argentina
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/alfredo-di-stéfano-career-match-reports.1994303/

Like I said Cristiano ronaldo vs ADS at Real Madrid is a legitimate and interesting debate
However ronaldos legacy isnt entirely dependent on his Real Madrid exploits in the same way ADS is
CR left a legacy for his country and Manchester United and is very arguably the best ever player for both(most definitely for Portugal and arguably for Manchester United)

Which lasting legacy did ADS leave outside of Real Madrid?

danko You are totally misrepresenting my argument.
since when did I claim CR was as good a playmaker as ADS?
More importantly Since when did CR have to be as good a playmaker as ADS to match his legacy

If they were actually comparable in goalscoring you would have a point but the truth is ronaldo obliterated rauls record in 433 less matches

He surpassed Di stefanos goal
Record in 100 less games and in a considerably more defensive era
So yeah try and be a bit balanced when your comparing the two
ADS has his advantages but let’s not pretend like ronaldo hasn’t got any either
Click to expand...

Di Stefano has a higher scoring rate in the CL. Eusebio has a case as Portugal's best ever player even if Ronaldo is favored by more. Giggs's Man United career beats Ronaldo's who only had great world class years there. Besides, those things don't prove anything.

My initial post wasn't about their legacy. I put Di Stefano ahead of Ronaldo because he's a more complete all around player.

carlito86 · Jan 15, 2019

Danko said: ↑

Di Stefano has a higher scoring rate in the CL. Eusebio has a case as Portugal's best ever player even if Ronaldo is favored by more. Giggs's Man United career beats Ronaldo's who only had great world class years there. Besides, those things don't prove anything.

My initial post wasn't about their legacy. I put Di Stefano ahead of Ronaldo because he's a more complete all around player.
Click to expand...

Did Di Stéfano have a higher scoring rate than Cristiano ronaldo in the European Cup for Real Madrid?

Eusebio has no case against ronaldo anymore(not since at least 2014)
I would love to hear your reasoning for Eusebio being ranked higher than CR.
Bearing in mind we are talking about a player who won the ballon dor only once in his career
he also played in an era in which Pele wasn’t even eligible for the award

Was he more consistent?
Was he more gifted?
How many legendary European Cup runs did he have?
I know your eager to place as many legends as possible above ronaldo but don’t be so hasty without thinking about these questions

poetgooner · Jan 16, 2019

carlito86 said: ↑

Bearing in mind we are talking about a player who won the ballon dor only once in his career
Click to expand...

To be fair, in the early days of Ballon D'or, there was a bit of an understanding that no player would be given it twice since it served as a bit of a career-achievement award.

But yes, I think CR7 has surpassed Eusebio at this point.

Danko · Jan 16, 2019

carlito86 said: ↑

Did Di Stéfano have a higher scoring rate than Cristiano ronaldo in the European Cup for Real Madrid?

Eusebio has no case against ronaldo anymore(not since at least 2014)
I would love to hear your reasoning for Eusebio being ranked higher than CR.
Bearing in mind we are talking about a player who won the ballon dor only once in his career
he also played in an era in which Pele wasn’t even eligible for the award

Was he more consistent?
Was he more gifted?
How many legendary European Cup runs did he have?
I know your eager to place as many legends as possible above ronaldo but don’t be so hasty without thinking about these questions
Click to expand...

For their careers, Di Stefano has a higher rate even a slightly higher rate than Messi.

Eusebio has no case over Ronaldo on the GOAT list and I never claimed he does so I don't know where that's coming from. However, in terms of international career alone, there is definitely a case. Eusebio had a great World Cup run the likes of which Ronaldo never even came close to. Ronaldo may win out overall because of longevity but Eusebio reached a higher level with the Portugal national team.

Di Stefano scored all of his goals in the knockout stage. There was no group stage at the time. He has 8 goals in finals if I remember correctly compared to Ronaldo's 4 goals.

PuckVanHeel · Jan 16, 2019

Danko said: ↑

For their careers, Di Stefano has a higher rate even a slightly higher rate than Messi.

Eusebio has no case over Ronaldo on the GOAT list and I never claimed he does so I don't know where that's coming from. However, in terms of international career alone, there is definitely a case. Eusebio had a great World Cup run the likes of which Ronaldo never even came close to. Ronaldo may win out overall because of longevity but Eusebio reached a higher level with the Portugal national team.

Di Stefano scored all of his goals in the knockout stage. There was no group stage at the time. He has 8 goals in finals if I remember correctly compared to Ronaldo's 4 goals.
Click to expand...

One can make a case Eusebio was a better footballer and more of a one man army on the field.

Eusebio was genuinely unlucky to lose three EC finals (on top of one win), and has a strong record against the good teams.

I don't say he is surely better and thanks to his knee he declined earlier, but there are some things going for him if you just take the five best years of each player.

Again, in some matches against fine opposition he really can appear as a one man army, sort of.

Eusebio is one of those players who reached a truly high level domestically (even if it is Portugal and yes with penalties as Tropeiro pointed out), at continental level and a high peak with the national team (against opponents that matter).

carlito86 · Jan 16, 2019

Danko said: ↑

For their careers, Di Stefano has a higher rate even a slightly higher rate than Messi.

Eusebio has no case over Ronaldo on the GOAT list and I never claimed he does so I don't know where that's coming from. However, in terms of international career alone, there is definitely a case. Eusebio had a great World Cup run the likes of which Ronaldo never even came close to. Ronaldo may win out overall because of longevity but Eusebio reached a higher level with the Portugal national team.

Di Stefano scored all of his goals in the knockout stage. There was no group stage at the time. He has 8 goals in finals if I remember correctly compared to Ronaldo's 4 goals.
Click to expand...

What a disingenuous metric you are using to judge between the ADS and ronaldo

Di Stéfano peaked at Real Madrid
Di Stéfano only played European cup matches for Real Madrid
Yet you want me to include matches and goals of CR at Manchester United Including when he was a teenage winger!!!

Explain to me how that is a fair comparison?
In any case I did explicitly mention that as a Madrid player ADS can not compare to Cristiano Ronaldo in goalscoring
Not at all and not even playing in a league that averaged as high as 3.3 goals per match

Ronaldo surpassed ADS Real Madrid goal tally in 100 less matches
He was the fastest player to reach 100 La Liga goals since some guy from the 1920s

Even if you want to limit the discussion to CL KO stage goals for Real Madrid ronaldo still beats ADS in overall tally and goals per game ratio
Easily I might add(and ronaldo did not play teams like
Eintracht Frankfurt and/or other champions of obscure regional leagues who’s overall quality cannot be established)

Why are even discussing this.Are you saying Di Stéfano was even remotely comparable to ronaldo in goalscoring at Real Madrid

As for Eusebio he is a legend of the game in his own right
Yet I disagree that 1 outstanding World Cup is better than several good showings in Euro championships,singlehandedly dragging Portugal through the 2012 euro qualifiers,the 2014 World Cup qualifiers,and even scoring a few in the World Cup itself

Bearing in mind Eusebio only played and qualified for 1 international tournament in his career
Bearing in mind Eusebio played on a higher quality NT team in his peak with many of his Benfica buddies(serials winners)including the legendary Mário coluna
Even for the NT I struggle to see how Eusebio would compare to CR

PuckVanHeel · Jan 16, 2019

carlito86 said: ↑

What a disingenuous metric you are using to judge between the ADS and ronaldo

Di Stéfano peaked at Real Madrid
Di Stéfano only played European cup matches for Real Madrid
Yet you want me to include matches and goals of CR at Manchester United Including when he was a teenage winger!!!

Explain to me how that is a fair comparison?
In any case I did explicitly mention that as a Madrid player ADS can not compare to Cristiano Ronaldo in goalscoring
Not at all and not even playing in a league that averaged as high as 3.3 goals per match

Ronaldo surpassed ADS Real Madrid goal tally in 100 less matches
He was the fastest player to reach 100 La Liga goals since some guy from the 1920s

Even if you want to limit the discussion to CL KO stage goals for Real Madrid ronaldo still beats ADS in overall tally and goals per game ratio
Easily I might add(and ronaldo did not play teams like
Eintracht Frankfurt and/or other champions of obscure regional leagues who’s overall quality cannot be established)

Why are even discussing this.Are you saying Di Stéfano was even remotely comparable to ronaldo in goalscoring at Real Madrid

As for Eusebio he is a legend of the game in his own right
Yet I disagree that 1 outstanding World Cup is better than several good showings in Euro championships,singlehandedly dragging Portugal through the 2012 euro qualifiers,the 2014 World Cup qualifiers,and even scoring a few in the World Cup itself

Bearing in mind Eusebio only played and qualified for 1 international tournament in his career
Bearing in mind Eusebio played on a higher quality NT team in his peak with many of his Benfica buddies(serials winners)including the legendary Mário coluna
Even for the NT I struggle to see how Eusebio would compare to CR
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Fewer teams qualified for a tournament in Eusebio his time.

Ronaldo would not qualify for all either. 2014 for example, maybe 2016 as well.

carlito86 · Jan 16, 2019

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

One can make a case Eusebio was a better footballer and more of a one man army on the field.

Eusebio was genuinely unlucky to lose three EC finals (on top of one win), and has a strong record against the good teams.

I don't say he is surely better and thanks to his knee he declined earlier, but there are some things going for him if you just take the five best years of each player.

Again, in some matches against fine opposition he really can appear as a one man army, sort of.

Eusebio is one of those players who reached a truly high level domestically (even if it is Portugal and yes with penalties as Tropeiro pointed out), at continental level and a high peak with the national team (against opponents that matter).
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I see a bit of plagiarism going on here
“One man army” is the exact phrase I used to in favour of Eusebio over Marco Van basten

Benfica won a European cup in 60/61 and Eusebio played one game(in the league)
They beat the legendary Barcelona of the 60s in that final aswell(with czibor,Kubala,kocsis etc)
What was the pedigree of Manchester United in the European cup before Cristiano came
What about Real Madrid

I agree and that is why I said before Eusebio did sometimes look like a man possessed in big matches,the way he was able to take his team by the scruff of the neck almost singlehandedly was an amazing sight to behold

I disagree however that if we were to compare a 5 year stretch of Eusebio to ronaldo the former would come out looking favourably
In any case how would we account for the difference of eras,quality of defences,the disparity in goal averages

2007-2012 Cristiano ronaldo as a force of nature isn’t beaten by many players
Euesbio IMHO isn’t one of them

carlito86 · Jan 16, 2019

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Fewer teams qualified for a tournament in Eusebio his time.

Ronaldo would not qualify for all either. 2014 for example, maybe 2016 as well.
Click to expand...

you can’t project a 1960s reality on current day football and make conclusive statements like this

What did Eusebio do in the 1962 World Cup qualifiers?
He scored 1 goal in a 3 team group that contained Luxembourg,a team that conceded 21 goals in 4 matches

Eusebio scored literally 1 goal out of 9 team goals in the 62 qualifiers
So even if it was generally harder to qualify for international tournaments Eusebio did not play his part here
I think that is clear

I don’t Eusebio was particularly impressive in the 1968 European championships qualifiers either
He faced teams like Bulgaria,Sweden,Norway this is hardly a mighty challenge yet he only scored goals 2 goals against Norway and fired blanks against the other teams in his group

peterhrt · Jan 20, 2019

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Simplistically put: Di Stefano didn't do that, Bernabeu did. He was the man with the plan, the ideas, the social network and the concepts.

Real Madrid had already found the upward trajectory. They finished 3rd in the league the year before ADS (and 21 years old Gento) arrived, three points behind the winners while losing the last 'meaningless' round. One point less as in the subsequent year when they won the league.
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Yes Bernabeu was key, but it went even higher than him. In the 1950s Franco's Spain was still ostracised by the international community and the economy was struggling. The odd American military base was gradually established on Spanish soil, but Franco wanted a diplomatic charm offensive to woo Europe, and that was Real Madrid.

It is unlikely that Di Stefano would have welcomed the likes of Kopa, Didi and Puskas arriving to dilute his influence.

PuckVanHeel · Jan 20, 2019

peterhrt said: ↑

Yes Bernabeu was key, but it went even higher than him. In the 1950s Franco's Spain was still ostracised by the international community and the economy was struggling. The odd American military base was gradually established on Spanish soil, but Franco wanted a diplomatic charm offensive to woo Europe, and that was Real Madrid.

It is unlikely that Di Stefano would have welcomed the likes of Kopa, Didi and Puskas arriving to dilute his influence.
Click to expand...

I have been limited to my phone the past couple of days so that also limits me in what I can do for now;

What I have gathered/understood is Franco and pals had initially a (slight) preference for Atletico Madrid (renamed Aviacion Madrid), with money already pumped in, and then Bernabeu managed to gather their attention and present the 'business case'.

Or was this bound to happen anyway?

peterhrt · Jan 20, 2019

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

I have been limited to my phone the past couple of days so that also limits me in what I can do for now;

What I have gathered/understood is Franco and pals had initially a (slight) preference for Atletico Madrid (renamed Aviacion Madrid), with money already pumped in, and then Bernabeu managed to gather their attention and present the 'business case'.

Or was this bound to happen anyway?
Click to expand...

That may have been the case in terms of competing domestically with Barcelona.

Once Real were in the European Cup they had access to European crowds and media. Franco saw this as a major diplomatic opportunity and was willing to invest a lot of money.

carlito86 · Mar 19, 2019

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x18zd4c
Classic comp

Buyo · Dec 20, 2020

Once Cristiano Ronaldo's stage at Real Madrid is over, we can say that the Portuguese is the only one who can come close to Di Stéfano as the best player in the club's history, but even if he is very close for me, the first is still the Argentine star.

I consider it a great achievement that Cristiano has surpassed (in my opinion) Paco Gento's career at Real Madrid, something that seemed unattainable a few years ago, but it must be recognized that the level shown by CR7 in the white team has reached legendary levels.

My top would be the following:

1- Alfredo di Stéfano
2- Cristiano Ronaldo
3- Paco Gento
4- Ferenc Puskas

Then a group formed by Raúl, Casillas and Ramos could come and a little further behind another formed by Roberto Carlos, Pirri, Santamaría, Amancio, etc.

I do not consider other players such as Zidane or Ronaldo Nazario because their careers at Real Madrid were short compared to those of the aforementioned players.