Cristiano ronaldo vs alfredo di stefano who is the greatest Real Madrid player of all time

Vegan10 · Oct 8, 2018

Vegan10 said: ↑

Btw, I had started that Di Stéfano thread reading his performances throughout a season (will continue eventually if time permits; been busy with Serie A of the 1980s and how players rated).

Also years ago had jumped along to summarize every game of Cruijff in Spanish football in Puckvanheel’s thread of Johan Cruijff. You can read it here:
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/johan-cruyff-matches-and-goals-scored.1865250/page-66#post-27178757

One of the things I remember is how Cruijff played most of the time in physical limitations when in Spain. In that era it had a rough edge La Liga and expensive foreigners were not always well welcomed.

Cruijff produced mixed reviews over the course of his Spanish career. It wasn’t always great and played through large stretches as a centre-back and libero.

The aftermath of WC74 brought a certain change; he no longer was exactly the same as in his first season at Barcelona. He rivaled it once several seasons later but not the same force as previously. Once he moved to North America he no longer was viewed the same in his return to Europe.
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Anyway there was two seasons of Cruijff at Barcelona that were very impressive : 1973-74 and 1976-77.

The rest had mixed reviews. Ironic that in 1975 Ballon d’Or he finished 3rd when it was not a strong season for him but when he was better in 1977 he did not make the podium.

tLB Odiseo · Dec 5, 2018

Alfredo Di Stéfano

carlito86 · Jan 9, 2019

1014899288550322176 is not a valid tweet id

1014899333207154688 is not a valid tweet id

1014899339435626498 is not a valid tweet id

1014901219784052738 is not a valid tweet id

carlito86 · Jan 9, 2019

1014909571079593987 is not a valid tweet id

1014906955167686657 is not a valid tweet id

poetgooner · Jan 9, 2019

carlito86 said: ↑

1014909571079593987 is not a valid tweet id

1014906955167686657 is not a valid tweet id
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To be fair, CR7 didn't start winning the UCL until Modric arrived.

This is not to say I am discounting CR7 as RM's GOAT. I simply disagree with the tweet's implication that CR7 is the cause in RM's rise. We all know CR7 was powerless in the face of peak Guardiola's Barcelona. His fortunes only started turning when the other stars joined the team.

I would have a problem as well if someone implied that Alfredo Di Stefano was the reason for RM's domination in the 1950-60s, when he also had a completely stacked team to play with.

I am perfectly happy to entertain either player as the club's GOAT as long as there isn't any pretense that both their legacies were very closely tied to the quality of their teams.

carlito86 · Jan 9, 2019

poetgooner said: ↑

To be fair, CR7 didn't start winning the UCL until Modric arrived.

This is not to say I am discounting CR7 as RM's GOAT. I simply disagree with the tweet's implication that CR7 is the cause in RM's rise. We all know CR7 was powerless in the face of peak Guardiola's Barcelona. His fortunes only started turning when the other stars joined the team.

I would have a problem as well if someone implied that Alfredo Di Stefano was the reason for RM's domination in the 1950-60s, when he also had a completely stacked team to play with.

I am perfectly happy to entertain either player as the club's GOAT as long as there isn't any pretense that both their legacies were very closely tied to the quality of their teams.
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This is inaccurate
Ronaldo did not start winning the champions league or anything for that matter when Luca modric arrived
The season modric arrived he was voted the worst player in the entire Spanish league (2012/13) and Real Madrid went trophyless
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/f...oted-worst-La-Liga-signing-of-the-season.html

carlito86 · Jan 9, 2019

There are also achievements you are discounting for no apparent reason
Losing La Liga by 1 point in his first season with 17 man of the match awards in 35 appearances
Winning the copa Del Rey against Barcelona scoring the winning goal in 2011
And helping Real Madrid( a team ultimately in transition period)progress from being a side that could not progress beyond the R16 to a team that made the SFs every season
I lost count of how many Champions league quarterfinals ronaldo won for Real Madrid
Apoel 2012
Galstasary 2013
Dortmund 2014
Atlético 2015
Wolfsburg 2016
Atlético 2017
Juventus 2018
Ronaldo either scored the winning goal or made the winning goal in 7 consecutive champions league quarterfinals

poetgooner · Jan 10, 2019

carlito86 said: ↑

This is inaccurate
Ronaldo did not start winning the champions league or anything for that matter when Luca modric arrived
The season modric arrived he was voted the worst player in the entire Spanish league (2012/13) and Real Madrid went trophyless
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/f...oted-worst-La-Liga-signing-of-the-season.html
Click to expand...

You're missing the point then. The point is, if one uses team achievement to show the before-and-after effect of a player, then Modric would look just as good, as he's been in the team for around the same period. You could do the same for Varane as well, and that would be even more absurd!

I'm not arguing against CR7. I'm not arguing for Modric or ADS. This is not a partisan issue.

This is about lazy analysis as used in the tweet, so there's no need for you to bring up any more evidence in support of CR7 or against Modric as you have just done.

carlito86 · Jan 10, 2019

poetgooner said: ↑

You're missing the point then. The point is, if one uses team achievement to show the before-and-after effect of a player, then Modric would look just as good, as he's been in the team for around the same period. You could do the same for Varane as well, and that would be even more absurd!

I'm not arguing against CR7. I'm not arguing for Modric or ADS. This is not a partisan issue.

This is about lazy analysis as used in the tweet, so there's no need for you to bring up any more evidence in support of CR7 or against Modric as you have just done.
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I posted a series of tweets that demonstrated how influential ronaldo had been during Real Madrid’s period of European domination over the past 5 or so years

You seemingly felt an uncontrollable urge to dismiss this and allege that ronaldos influence was exaggerated and in fact modric deserves credit (and in your own words “Real Madrid did not start winning till modric came”)
I went on to demonstrate your claim was wholly inaccurate

Btw you can make a case for any player of your choice as long as it’s watertight and fully substantiated
Things to bear in mind:
ronaldo was awarded the uefa champions league best player award for 3 of the 4 CL he won for Real Madrid
We also know that he was the highest rated Real Madrid player by whoscored in all 4 champions league victories
This is just a brief overview of course and if we was to do an even thorough breakdown it would show how he broke all time records and then proceeded to break his own records and now we’ve gotten to the stage where he is literally competing against himself

poetgooner · Jan 10, 2019

carlito86 said: ↑

I posted a series of tweets that demonstrated how influential ronaldo had been during Real Madrid’s period of European domination over the past 5 or so years

You seemingly felt an uncontrollable urge to dismiss this and allege that ronaldos influence was exaggerated and in fact modric deserves credit (and in your own words “Real Madrid did not start winning till modric came”)
I went on to demonstrate your claim was wholly inaccurate
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Notice how I never contested the goal involvement stat? I only had a problem with the tweet's use of the before-and-after overall team performances to imply that Ronaldo was the cause of the rise, when we all know there's so much more contributing factor than that.

Did I say Ronaldo's influence is exaggerated? Only compared to the implication of the tweet. My whole point was about the way the tweet analysed things. The tweet implies that Ronaldo is responsible for RM's rise by using the before-and-after analysis. That's lazy. Ronaldo's legacy is very closely tied to the relative strength of the rest of his team, and even if we can show that Ronaldo is the main contributor to RM's victories (which I've said many times he is) the before-and-after analysis is the wrong way to show it.

I never said Modric deserves the credit at all. My words, which you quoted, is simply to show that you could do the same before-and-after analysis showing how RM won 4 UCLS after the arrival of Modric, and it wouldn't be proof that Modric caused those wins. Then I followed up with Varane. RM won 4 UCLS only after Varane arrived to the team as well. It would just all show correlation.

carlito86 · Jan 10, 2019

poetgooner said: ↑

Notice how I never contested the goal involvement stat? I only had a problem with the tweet's use of the before-and-after overall team performances to imply that Ronaldo was the cause of the rise, when we all know there's so much more contributing factor than that.

Did I say Ronaldo's influence is exaggerated? Only compared to the implication of the tweet. My whole point was about the way the tweet analysed things. The tweet implies that Ronaldo is responsible for RM's rise by using the before-and-after analysis. That's lazy. Ronaldo's legacy is very closely tied to the relative strength of the rest of his team, and even if we can show that Ronaldo is the main contributor to RM's victories (which I've said many times he is) the before-and-after analysis is the wrong way to show it.

I never said Modric deserves the credit at all. My words, which you quoted, is simply to show that you could do the same before-and-after analysis showing how RM won 4 UCLS after the arrival of Modric, and it wouldn't be proof that Modric caused those wins. Then I followed up with Varane. RM won 4 UCLS only after Varane arrived to the team as well. It would just all show correlation.
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Okay fair enough
Even if there was a correlation between Varane coming and Madrid winning there is an argument he was at best only the 3rd best defender on his team

We are talking here about instant and noticeable impact that directly aligns with a players arrival at the club
Ronaldo came to Los Blancos and had to dragged them to a CL R16
Even though he was on the losing side he was still the best player on the pitch vs Lyon and I might add by a fair distance

In all honesty you in fact misinterpreted the tweet as it wasn’t only referring to how influential ronaldo was during Real Madrid’s champions league winning campaigns but also encompasses his entire tenure at the club including many seasons where he did not win or even make the final

Ultimately the point was to show how a club that was s huge underperfomer in the champions league particularly under the failed galactico project 2004- was able to transform it’s fortunes with the help of one player in particular( and the team as a whole without whom nothing can be achieved)

Ariaga II · Jan 10, 2019

poetgooner said: ↑

I would have a problem as well if someone implied that Alfredo Di Stefano was the reason for RM's domination in the 1950-60s, when he also had a completely stacked team to play with.
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There's no need to imply ADS was the reason for the domination, because he absolutely was. Look at the "stacked" team of 1956. The other star is Gento, who has gone on record as saying he was nothing when he arrived, and it was playing with ADS that made him so much better. IIRC, Ian Hawkey's ADS biography says Gento was actually an ADS suggestion, as Bernabeu wasn't sold on him. The third star was Rial, another ADS suggestion. Everybody else on that team are support players that would never have won the EC on their own. Check out what the RM trophy cabinet looked like before ADS.

Two years later, the team has been strengthened with Kopa and Santamaria (signings made possible because of the first EC-win). Even with this stacked team, they were getting clobbered by Milan in the EC final, until ADS took control of the game and turned tide for them. If the team was stacked, it was because they were allowed to build on the success ADS brought them. That's also why he'll always be undoubtedly the greatest player in Real Madrid history. Ronaldo, as great as he is, is just another guest at the banquet set up by ADS.

Tropeiro · Jan 10, 2019

What about Puskas? Was ADS actually much more impactful than him?

https://twitter.com/goalimpact

PuckVanHeel · Jan 10, 2019

Ariaga II said: ↑

There's no need to imply ADS was the reason for the domination, because he absolutely was. Look at the "stacked" team of 1956. The other star is Gento, who has gone on record as saying he was nothing when he arrived, and it was playing with ADS that made him so much better. IIRC, Ian Hawkey's ADS biography says Gento was actually an ADS suggestion, as Bernabeu wasn't sold on him. The third star was Rial, another ADS suggestion. Everybody else on that team are support players that would never have won the EC on their own. Check out what the RM trophy cabinet looked like before ADS.

Two years later, the team has been strengthened with Kopa and Santamaria (signings made possible because of the first EC-win). Even with this stacked team, they were getting clobbered by Milan in the EC final, until ADS took control of the game and turned tide for them. If the team was stacked, it was because they were allowed to build on the success ADS brought them. That's also why he'll always be undoubtedly the greatest player in Real Madrid history. Ronaldo, as great as he is, is just another guest at the banquet set up by ADS.
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I have that Hawkey book. It is said there Gento was signed three months before ADS.

I think Bernabeu was the main architect and power broker of it all (also one of the guys involved in setting up the EC and establishing UEFA), as I explained in this thread, but can agree with Real Madrid getting stronger over the years and ADS his presence as a catalyst for later signings.

carlito86 · Jan 10, 2019

Ariaga II said: ↑

There's no need to imply ADS was the reason for the domination, because he absolutely was. Look at the "stacked" team of 1956. The other star is Gento, who has gone on record as saying he was nothing when he arrived, and it was playing with ADS that made him so much better. IIRC, Ian Hawkey's ADS biography says Gento was actually an ADS suggestion, as Bernabeu wasn't sold on him. The third star was Rial, another ADS suggestion. Everybody else on that team are support players that would never have won the EC on their own. Check out what the RM trophy cabinet looked like before ADS.

Two years later, the team has been strengthened with Kopa and Santamaria (signings made possible because of the first EC-win). Even with this stacked team, they were getting clobbered by Milan in the EC final, until ADS took control of the game and turned tide for them. If the team was stacked, it was because they were allowed to build on the success ADS brought them. That's also why he'll always be undoubtedly the greatest player in Real Madrid history. Ronaldo, as great as he is, is just another guest at the banquet set up by ADS.
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This is absurd
So ADS will also take credit for a future great who hypothetically speaking emerges in the year 2119 and wins 4-5 champions league trophies

This is not a argument and every player will be judged on the merits of their own actions
Who did it first,second,third...one hundredth isn’t relevant

If you say ADS Was greater for functioning in all a encompassing role whilst also being a prolific scorer
That is a valid argument (that can also be debated but at least it’s an argument that can be fully substantiated and is grounded in reality)

Sticking to this BS mindset of old people with no analysis is frustrating even though we actually now know as a fact( from match reports compiled by posters on this forum) that Cristiano Ronaldo was a much more consistent player than Alfredo Di Stefano at Real Madrid

Ronaldo did not drop below the rank of a top 5 player in the world for his entire tenure as a Real Madrid player
That is 9 years of elite consistency and service to the club
The only argument left is this is a weak era but that also got debunked hundreds of times already

carlito86 · Jan 10, 2019

Tropeiro said: ↑

What about Puskas? Was ADS actually much more impactful than him?

https://twitter.com/goalimpact
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Goals LMFAO
Was ADS even a striker?

Post prime puskas was a CF whose primary function was to score goals.
ADS dictated play in the midfield,tracked back to help in defence and had the stamina and positioning to always find himself in goalscoring positions
Such a players worth cannot be quantified by silly goal charts

The fat version of puskas would probably collapse from exhaustion if he did 1 shift of Di Stefano

schwuppe · Jan 10, 2019

carlito86 said: ↑

Goals LMFAO
Was ADS even a striker?
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"Goalimpact" not goals. There are a lot of defenders on the list.

carlito86 · Jan 10, 2019

schwuppe said: ↑

"Goalimpact" not goals. There are a lot of defenders on the list.
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And what is the criteria for discerning which goals were impactful or not

Bottom line There is no graph that can accurately demonstrate how impactful Di Stefano was for Real Madrid on the pitch
Playmakers can’t be compared to box strikers if we follow this line of reasoning it will inevitably lead to the types of questions asked by the likes of bada bing

Who was more impactful for Napoli higuain or maradona
(Based on goal involvements,importance of goals etc)

Football is not flipping basketball or whatever and I feel the yanks are attempting to hijack the sport by applying their narrow minded application of statistics when football was never a sport to begin with that was to be solely measured in this manner

We are on a section of this forum called the beautiful game but there are some who have a moronic obsession with stats and dismiss everything else as conjecture
It’s totally bizarre

comme · Jan 10, 2019

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

I have that Hawkey book. It is said there Gento was signed three months before ADS.

I think Bernabeu was the main architect and power broker of it all (also one of the guys involved in setting up the EC and establishing UEFA), as I explained in this thread, but can agree with Real Madrid getting stronger over the years and ADS his presence as a catalyst for later signings.
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I think/presume what Ariaga was saying was (per Hawkey) that ADS pushed the case of Gento when Bernabeu wanted to sign Francisco Espina and let Gento leave. I was just reading that section yesterday.

PuckVanHeel · Jan 10, 2019

schwuppe said: ↑

"Goalimpact" not goals. There are a lot of defenders on the list.
Click to expand...

There are some differences with other versions of the list (coefficients of the algorithm) but less so when comparing players of the same team or the same era. Puskas remains #1 for that Real Madrid, Cruijff remains #1 of his generation/era. There are some like Dieter Hoeness, Neubarth who have gotten a bump (or get lower, if you see it the other way) but not many really.

The creator also says below that tweet MvB is "close behind" so his within-generation standing remains (broadly) the same too.

As I said to you here, the underlying data needs to be checked. Those tell a lot too. That was for me interesting, to see what is behind it.

Ariaga II · Jan 10, 2019

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

I have that Hawkey book. It is said there Gento was signed three months before ADS.

I think Bernabeu was the main architect and power broker of it all (also one of the guys involved in setting up the EC and establishing UEFA), as I explained in this thread, but can agree with Real Madrid getting stronger over the years and ADS his presence as a catalyst for later signings.
Click to expand...

Sure, Bernabeu was instrumental, but we're talking about the greatest player here.

That said, I'm hard-pressed to think which other player they could have signed that would have earned them 5 ECs. Without that one mega-player, they would have been looking at Barca's taillights throughout the 50s.

carlito86 said: ↑

This is absurd
So ADS will also take credit for a future great who hypothetically speaking emerges in the year 2119 and wins 4-5 champions league trophies

This is not a argument and every player will be judged on the merits of their own actions
Who did it first,second,third...one hundredth isn’t relevant

If you say ADS Was greater for functioning in all a encompassing role whilst also being a prolific scorer
That is a valid argument (that can also be debated but at least it’s an argument that can be fully substantiated and is grounded in reality)

Sticking to this BS mindset of old people with no analysis is frustrating even though we actually now know as a fact( from match reports compiled by posters on this forum) that Cristiano Ronaldo was a much more consistent player than Alfredo Di Stefano at Real Madrid

Ronaldo did not drop below the rank of a top 5 player in the world for his entire tenure as a Real Madrid player
That is 9 years of elite consistency and service to the club
The only argument left is this is a weak era but that also got debunked hundreds of times already
Click to expand...

Settle down there, buddy. We're talking about who is the greatest player in RM-history, not who was the better or more consistent player. And when discussing the greatest, the creator of that greatness is obviously a major factor.

The other major factor would be who brought home more gold, and it's a washout.

Tropeiro said: ↑

What about Puskas? Was ADS actually much more impactful than him?

https://twitter.com/goalimpact
Click to expand...

Well, that changes everything. Puskas has a bigger number in this Excel chart. Seriously, what is this goal impact nonsense? It's a list of random players from random clubs.

schwuppe · Jan 10, 2019

carlito86 said: ↑

.....
Click to expand...

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Just corrected that the poster was talking about "goal impact" and it looks like position doesn't matter for that stat. I don't know whether this goal impact stat is useful, the list looks iffy.

carlito86 · Jan 10, 2019

Ariaga II said: ↑

Sure, Bernabeu was instrumental, but we're talking about the greatest player here.

That said, I'm hard-pressed to think which other player they could have signed that would have earned them 5 ECs. Without that one mega-player, they would have been looking at Barca's taillights throughout the 50s.

Settle down there, buddy. We're talking about who is the greatest player in RM-history, not who was the better or more consistent player. And when discussing the greatest, the creator of that greatness is obviously a major factor.

The other major factor would be who brought home more gold, and it's a washout.

Well, that changes everything. Puskas has a bigger number in this Excel chart. Seriously, what is this goal impact nonsense? It's a list of random players from random clubs.
Click to expand...

Winning more trophies is now the final say on who is the greatest

If you are consistent with this line of reasoning than you would I’m assuming have no issue anointing
Gento/Ramos/Giggs as the top 3 GOAT

For me a players worth is established by what he contributed towards titles and not how many he won(although winning a tonne of trophies is usually a indication that a player was definitely World class)

Di Stefano was the best player in 4 of the 5 European cups he won
He was a passenger really in 55/56 IMO contributing to only 3 of the 12 goals Real Madrid scored from the QF to final
In the QF he scored the 4th goal in a 4-2 win against partizen Belgrade
In the SF he scored the 4th goal in a 4-0 win against Milan
In the final he scored 1 goal in a 4-3 win
Attach ronaldos name to the above and there will be threads opened running into 100s of pages discussing how he only scores worthless goals
The mighty Di Stefano and any other player from the pre colour era can get away with it though
Puskás also seems to have been the best player in Spain during his second season at Real Madrid (1959/60)

Ronaldo was the best player in 4 of the 4 champions league trophies he won
His league count is demonstrably inferior to the one accumulated by ADS but as has already been discussed
Di Stefano did not compete against a all time great player and a legendary club side in Spain (Messi and Barcelona)

Ronaldo lost the league playing on a team that reached 90+ points in 2009/10 and 2010/11 and 2015/16
We are really talking about fine margins here

Tropeiro · Jan 11, 2019

Would be cool to see all these type of data, with all players in the poll, especially Cristiano Ronaldo, Di Stefano y Puskas.

Louis Soccer said: ↑

You ask, and I'll grant it
Zico was part of the national team of Brazil from 1976 to 1986, recorded 71 games, 48 goals and 22 assists, generated an average of 0.98 goals per game. He was responsible for 70 goals of the 167 scored by Brazil, which is 42%.

Brazil National Team 1976 - 1986:
With Zico in the team: G71 51W 17D 3L = 83.8% points win
Without Zico in the team: G50 25W 14D 11L = 64.3% points win

Results:
Netherlands with Cruyff won 74.0% of the points, without Cruyff it won 48.3% (+ 25.7%)
Brazil with Zico won 83.8% of the points, without Zico it won 64.3% (+ 19.5%)
Argentina with Maradona won 62.1% of the points, without Maradona it won 59.9% (+ 2.2%)

The goal average of Netherlands was 2.5 with Cruyff and 1.4 without Cruyff (+1.1)
The goal average of Brazil with Zico was 2.4 and without Zico it was 1.6 (+0.8)
The goal average of Argentina with Maradona was 1.6 and without Maradona it was 1.4 (+0.2)

Cruyff was responsible for 59 goals of the 122 scored by Netherlands, which is 48.4%.
Maradona was responsible for 62 goals of the 137 scored by Argentina, which is 45.3%
Zico was responsible for 70 goals of the 167 scored by Brazil, which is 41.9%

Conclusion:
According to global statistics for their respective national teams, the most influential were::
1. Johan Cruyff
2. Zico
3. Maradona
It seems that what is said about Maradona, about his great influence, is a myth. There was only one concrete fact (WC 1986) that has become generalized..
Click to expand...

PuckVanHeel · Jan 13, 2019

Ariaga II said: ↑

Sure, Bernabeu was instrumental, but we're talking about the greatest player here.

That said, I'm hard-pressed to think which other player they could have signed that would have earned them 5 ECs. Without that one mega-player, they would have been looking at Barca's taillights throughout the 50s.
Click to expand...

Ariaga II said: ↑

Sure, Bernabeu was instrumental, but we're talking about the greatest player here.

That said, I'm hard-pressed to think which other player they could have signed that would have earned them 5 ECs. Without that one mega-player, they would have been looking at Barca's taillights throughout the 50s.

Settle down there, buddy. We're talking about who is the greatest player in RM-history, not who was the better or more consistent player. And when discussing the greatest, the creator of that greatness is obviously a major factor.

The other major factor would be who brought home more gold, and it's a washout.

Well, that changes everything. Puskas has a bigger number in this Excel chart. Seriously, what is this goal impact nonsense? It's a list of random players from random clubs.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the delay. I will return to this (in relation to @poetgooner his posts and CR7).