Cristiano Ronaldo: How overrated is his post-2015 legacy ?? Video analysis and discussion thread.

Can you please educate me on what exactly it is that I am an 'extremist ideologue' about, because I am certainly not a Messi fanboy, so can you please enlighten me on what exactly it is that makes me such a radical zealot??

1-0 win for Juventus / away game.

^ Juventus 2018/19 (without Ronaldo) vs. Manchester United.

1-2 defeat for Juventus / home game.

^ Juventus 2018/19 (with Ronaldo in great form) vs. Manchester United.

1-0 win for Portugal / France as hosts.

^ Portugal 2016 (without Ronaldo) vs. France.

1-2 defeat for Portugal / Russia as hosts.

^ Portugal 2018 (with Ronaldo in great form in the lead up to this game) vs. Uruguay.

You do realize that the above is completely abnormal, do you not?? Honestly, this is probably unprecedented in the history of the game; Ronaldo in great form produces literally worse results against 'beatable' sides such as Uruguay, Manchester United, or Ajax, but statistically Ronaldo is as great as he's ever been. Why is this happening across all formats to Ronaldo?? This abnormality never happens with Messi, not one time in Messi's long career at the top.

Ronaldo is playing great in many of those defeats, but the cost of Ronaldo playing great tactically largely destroys both the creativity and the diversity of the team, especially the creativity of the midfield is severely diminished, as was made painfully clear with Portugal 2018 which was a team with good midfield players such as Bernardo Silva, but Ronaldo in fact having more power and influence - than the coach himself - over the actual tactics of the team, practically guarantees that Ronaldo is going to consistently score goals, but at what cost??

Football is and always will be a TEAM sport. Statistics should never be taken at face value on the basis of their 'on paper' credit, and honestly, Cristiano Ronaldo is probably the best ever evidence of statistics having a cost when the TEAM is completely put at the mercy of just one player who can realistically (especially at 34 years of age) only offer headers and/or tap ins.

The poster @benficafan3 hates my guts, he absolutely does, but unlike you Carlito, he is interesting in that he is at least willing to entertain the idea of Ronaldo being a 'double edged sword'.

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This Juve team was worse, significantly so, relative to prior years. Last year they beat Real Madrid 3-1 at the Bernabeu. I agree with them being more single-dimensional and I actually believe it was a double edged sword for them to have Ronaldo. I think they started looking at him as "the solution" and not as a piece of an overall puzzle. Their players seem to almost have lost confidence in themselves and expected Ronaldo to just ultimately solve things. Really poor management from Allegri.
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Of course, @benficafan3 is still a Ronaldo fan at heart, which means that he is completely unwilling to put any sense of tactical fault on Ronaldo himself, instead, @benficafan3 conveniently puts 100% of the blame squarely on Allegri, which in my opinion is obviously wrong.

Important goals not scored by Ronaldo versus total goals by team:

team / important goals not scored by Ronaldo / total goals by team including Ronaldo's goals.

Real Madrid 2014 / 8 goals in 7 games / 21 goals.

Portugal 2016 / 6 goals in 7 games / 9 goals.

Real Madrid 2016 / 2 goals in 7 games / 8 goals.

Real Madrid 2017 / 8 goals in 7 games / 20 goals.

Real Madrid 2018 / 7 goals in 7 games / 16 goals.

Portugal 2018 / 1 goal in 4 games / 5 goals.

Juventus 2018 / 7 goals in 4 games / 7 goals.

Juventus 2019 / 0 goals in 4 games / 5 goals.

The trend of Ronaldo using blatant propaganda to 'elevate' himself above the team, that is, the trend of Ronaldo exploiting Real Madrid's underrated midfield - as indicated by the above source of healthy supply of important goals not scored by Ronaldo - with the aim of exerting a greater influence on the tactics of both Portugal and now Juventus, is painfully demonstrated by the above numbers and especially by the actual video which conclusively demonstrates that it is not Portugal's coach (Fernando Santos) nor Juventus's coach (Massimiliano Allegri) who are to blame for the decline of both teams that were unhealthily built around Ronaldo's overrated statistical value.

Different coaches will rarely make the same blatant mistake TWICE and in CONSECUTIVE years?? That is highly unlikely - almost virtually impossible - in an era where tactics increasingly are more important than the cult of personality of certain highly rated egocentric characters... The problem here is - clear as daylight - Cristiano Ronaldo, who for years was detrimental to Real Madrid, until age began to force him into limiting his scope and influence as a player, age forced him into morphing into a player who offers little or nothing besides scoring the occasional header and/or tap in, and Real Madrid immediately became a more competitive club both in La Liga and in the Champions League (especially in the Champions League), almost exclusively because the exploitation of the actual team by Ronaldo was now reduced to just scoring goals, when in the past Ronaldo had hurt the team in all areas of the field.

This is the incredibly underrated NEGATIVE aspect of Cristiano Ronaldo, an amazing goal scorer if you can, as a coach, reduce his nasty habit of putting statistics above results, his 'creative license' that allows him to utterly exploit the team in order to inflate his Ballon d'Or statistics, because that's how essentials statistics are for Ronaldo, statistics - especially when taken completely out of context - were and continue to be the only realistic way that Ronaldo can get to 'compete' against a superior player - not only talent, but player - like Messi.

Carlo Ancelotti was the first to do that HUGE favor/improvement to Real Madrid, greatly reducing the sphere of influence where Ronaldo could operate in, and honestly, it just cannot be stressed enough just how much of an improvement it was for Real Madrid to have greatly reduced the amount of 'empty' dribbling by Ronaldo (which hurt the team greatly, for many years), replacing that 'empty' dribbling with players who physically are better built for midfield dribbling and/or for midfield ball retention, which made the team stronger overall, and which in the process also allowed Ronaldo to score a greater percentage of important goals in the high profile games. (Physically better built for midfield dribbling and midfield ball retention is, as should be obvious, the known fact that smaller player with shorter legs have a natural physical advantage for midfield play, as greatly and increasingly indicated by the evolution of this sport. This is why Paul Pogba with his long legs is destined to struggle at club level.)

Zinedine Zidane - an all time legend big enough to further put Ronaldo in his place - further perfected what Ancelotti had built, and 3 consecutive Champions League, added to 1 La Liga title, tells the story, even if luck was also a huge consistent playmaker. And it also cannot be stressed enough, again, that Ronaldo's second La Liga title in his 9 years of La Liga, was literally Ronaldo's worst statistical season, so much so that Morata (a bench player) was in fact better in terms of open-play goals; this is simply abnormal as far as outcomes go, Real Madrid gets better league results when Ronaldo's role is as limited and as diminished as it ever was in his 9 years there... Which, again, comprehensively demonstrates that one multi-national brand/player scoring a gazillion goals in the league, can come with a tactical cost that makes the team actually a lesser league team, even when that one player is racking up unprecedented statistics in the process of only winning 1 La Liga title (same as Diego Costa with Atletico Madrid, by the way) before Zidane came in and reduced him into Morata-ish numbers, immediately winning what was Ronaldo's 2nd La Liga out of the 9 La Ligas that he participated in.

And so, returning to the crux of the matter: Ronaldo with his Morata-ish numbers in La Liga that he won in 2017, Ronaldo having scored less important goals than several of his teammates in 2014, Ronaldo having done not much of anything other than scoring 2 goals and a bad free kick versus Wolfsburg in 2016, and Ronaldo who was deemed inferior in the Champions League to his teammate Luka Madric in 2018; Ronaldo was nonetheless depicted as the supremely talented savior of Real Madrid, and in the absence of Zidane's shadow, it is crystal clear that Ronaldo has comprehensively used and abused his false perception as 'the hero' of Real Madrid, deliberately superimposing himself over the coach at Portugal (Fernando Santos) and - per the script - now the coach at Juventus (Massimiliano Allegri), Ronaldo is back to his old ways and to the to the detriment of both teams. Very few coaches in the world have the aura and the status of a Zinedine Zidane, or the pedigree of a Carlo Ancelotti, so it is in my book blatantly absurd to blame relative 'nobodies' like Fernando Santos or Massimiliano Allegri, when Cristiano Ronaldo imposes himself and manipulates how a team functions statistically.

Important goals not scored by Ronaldo versus total goals by team:

team / important goals not scored by Ronaldo / total goals by team including Ronaldo's goals.

Real Madrid 2014 / 8 goals in 7 games / 21 goals.

Portugal 2016 / 6 goals in 7 games / 9 goals.

Real Madrid 2016 / 2 goals in 7 games / 8 goals.

Real Madrid 2017 / 8 goals in 7 games / 20 goals.

Real Madrid 2018 / 7 goals in 7 games / 16 goals.

Portugal 2018 / 1 goal in 4 games / 5 goals.

Juventus 2018 / 7 goals in 4 games / 7 goals.

Juventus 2019 / 0 goals in 4 games / 5 goals.

The story is perfectly congruent and linear, Mourinho couldn't find the way of making Ronaldo work in the Champions League, Ancelotti proved to be a better coach by identifying the problem and immediately fixing said problem, and Zidane further perfected what Ancelotti had built. It is not surprising that in the absence of Zidane's shadow, Ronaldo found the way of immediately circling his way back to his old habit of playing for statistics instead of for results; the mediocrity that was Portugal World Cup 2018, and again the mediocrity that was Juventus Champions League 2019. Both teams had the players and the resources to play much better football, but Ronaldo understood that his coveted 'GOAT' ambition was within his grasp, he came so terribly close to winning World Cup 2018 in his mind, he came so terribly close to becoming the first (and the last) player to have won four consecutive Champions League titles in his mind, to becoming the greatest player ever, and here we are less than two years later with Ronaldo at his statistical best but playing for teams that 'do not deserve to have the great Ronaldo'. The irony is that those teams would've accomplished equal or better results without CR7 imposing himself as the multi-national statistical tactical brand that he is. Also perhaps, the biggest irony is the fact that CR7 fans - one would assume fans who understand statistics - have an abjectly mediocre idea of what statistics actually do or are in this sport.

 

In my opinion, the real problem is that the midifield is built to assist Ronaldo, and that platform is built on the premise that Ronaldo's lack of contribution to midfield play will be compensated by Ronaldo's clinical finishing. In other words, the tactics in midfield are not built for having an extra-man like Ronaldo in midfield, and even if Ronaldo dropped back, Ronaldo cannot offer anything other than completely ordinary interaction really -- many many players (in fact almost all the Ajax midfield players I'd argue) are more adept at midfield play than Ronaldo is.

And so, again, Massimiliano Allegri realistically can only hope and stick to said €340m platform, and said platform will rarely ever work in the absence of extraordinary luck and/or extraordinary midfield dominance. The luck/joy ride is over for Ronaldo; midfield dominance of that level takes YEARS to build and perfect, and LUCK like the one Ronaldo benefited from for 3 consecutive years is highly unlikely at any point of what remains of Ronaldo's career. At any rate, time will tell.

 

You do realize that after I produced a rather comprehensive, structured, and detailed argument, you are telling me that YOU do not need to offer anything at all in exchange, and not only that, YOU are also telling me that I need to offer further evidence, more complete evidence, and apparently include assists and pre-assists when we know that Ronaldo post-2013 does not offer any high level assists or pre-assists (especially against organized sides).

I mean, I have to ask you... When the F do you step to the plate and produce a comprehensive and structured argument of your own?? Your arguments are always short, twitter-short, and full of obvious logical fallacious, not to mention the spectacular contradictions that make it sound satirical as opposed to in any way serious.

At any rate, Ronaldo's assists and pre-assists are for the better part EASIER than the actual off-the-ball runs that are required for said statistics to become assists or pre-assists. Please let me know which assists and/or pre-assists by Ronaldo post-2013 are of a high quality, and how that tiny addition - assuming that there even is something to add - would change the OVERWHELMING evidence against Ronaldo's statistics being as valuable to the team as you think or claim it is??

Step up to the plate and, for a change, actually contribute some substance to the discussion.

For my part, again, I have offered plenty more than you have, with far less time - far less time - than the time that you spend repeating the same old reductive and out of context faux statistical twitter line of yours.

And I have to add, honestly - and I truly mean honestly, I cannot stress that enough - from WHERE, from what source of anything ever, do you get your inexplicable sense of entitlement where you think that you somehow find yourself in either the general vicinity or actual district of what I assume is an advantageous situation of entitlement, as if facts were on your side, as if I needed to prove your presumably (but not, definitely not) convincing side of the story, that is, as if you somehow demonstrably - afters years of demonstrating it - possessed the 'gravitas' that I assume should be required for you to be able to demand or command me to reproduce 'complete data' and, by the way, what the hell does 'complete data' even actually means in this context to begin with?? I'm pretty sure you couldn't answer that question without inevitably proving me right in the process.

I mean, do you think I am being paid money for writing fully - FULLY - researched data on all areas there could possibly ever be to any argument ever to be related to Ronaldo?? And then you also complain about 'incomplete data' being too long, too boring, for you. Please pick one or the other.

And of course I say all of the above, fully aware that you will not offer any actual nuance nor substance at all, instead, if you do anything in the posts to follow, that will be abruptly changing the subject and/or abruptly moving the goalposts as you systematically do all the time.

 

Indeed that is my mistake concerning the first leg; it is embarrassing as hell that I misremembered that that badly, but I think the essence of the argument remains largely if not entirely correct, Juventus produced a better result when Ronaldo was just another player in the team, as opposed to when Ronaldo is the overwhelming star of every single play (as was the case in the second game vs. Manchester United, for example).

Moreover, Ronaldo was great in the second game vs. Manchester United, but Juventus was almost literally all Ronaldo, which is probably why the collapse of the team happened in the first place; because Ronaldo offers great activity off-the-ball, but in sharp contrast, Ronaldo is just very basic and limited when on-the-ball (at this stage of his career), so Ronaldo cannot step in and offer on-the-ball security and/or creativity when the team collapses off-the-ball as was the case, and one could make the additional argument, that Ronaldo being that great actually has a tendency to create a false sense (or a fragile sense) of superiority, which is, thinking that Ronaldo is doing it all by himself - the genius that he is - when in reality a lot of that off-the-ball activity that makes Ronaldo statistically impressive actually necessitates organization and skill from the entire team, so if 7 outfield players in the team become complacent and lose their intensity because they think that Ronaldo is going to 'carry' them, you can easily get a collapse in terms of off-the-ball cohesion and discipline, and then the other team - without Ronaldo doing wonders for them - the inferior team can flip the switch very quickly when CR7 does not have the off-the-ball platform that he needs if he is to supposedly 'carry' a side like Juventus.

On a different note: I think it deserves to be noted that the assist for Ronaldo's close-range 'fabulous' goal was, in fact, a world class long ball that Pirlo would be proud of... I mean, assists are not mentioned at all when Ronaldo isn't the one to produce them. Not to mention again, was Ronaldo's goal a high difficulty situation in theory?? I mean, there is no questioning the fact that it was a 'classy' finish, without a doubt, but I mean, I think that many other players would've scored that goal, most probably the finish itself wouldn't have been quite as classy, but it still was technically a very-close-range goal with very good possibilities of going in. Not a wonder goal in my book. Not a goal scored out of nothing in my book.

 

That's the essential point isn't it?

Ronaldo at this age can only offer fairly basic (almost strictly basic) and specific things, and if the teams aren't tactically built to maximize said specific strengths of Ronaldo, then what exactly is the point of having Ronaldo there in the first place? I mean, Juventus is not going to build - out of nothing - a dominant midfield in any way remotely comparable to the Real Madrid 2013 - 2018 midfield, a midfield that was so legitimately great for such a long time that, in 2018, without dominating at all, the service was still consistent and world class.

At Juventus, Ronaldo is experiencing what his stats add up to when there is no extraordinary midfield platform to 'elevate' him.

 

I seriously doubt that my premise cannot be proven... but at any rate, I am not here to try to conclusively prove something that would require years of research for a team of professional statisticians, etc. At the same time, something that very much appears to be a fact (unless you can offer some evidence to the contrary), is the unprecedented abnormality that surrounds Ronaldo's later-career, which I think sheds light on Ronaldo's earlier-career.

( note: in terms of league results, I am only using 32 games, as that is what Juventus has played this year so far. )

Real Madrid 2018 / La Liga / 79 goals in 32 games / 67 points.

Juventus 2018 / Serie A / 77 goals in 32 games / 84 points.

Napoli 2018 / Serie A / 66 goals in 32 games / 78 points.

Real Madrid 2019 / La Liga / 56 goals in 32 games / 61 points.

Juventus 2019 / Serie A / 65 goals in 32 games / 84 points.

Napoli 2019 / Serie A / 60 goals in 32 games / 67 points.

So after 32 games played, Real Madrid 2017/18 had the same points that Napoli 2018/19 currently has, and Juventus 2018/19 currently sits 17 points above Napoli... And of course, Ronaldo is very singularly credited for such a massive advantage, even though Juventus has generated the same exact points as the previous year, but having scored 12 goals less than the previous year.

Also worth acknowledging, of course, is the reality of why Juventus sits 17 points in front of the second best Serie A club... Napoli this year sits 11 points behind their own position of the previous year, in other words, if Napoli this year had been as good as the previous year, Juventus's advantage would be reduced to just 6 points, making Ronaldo's influence on the team look as non-spectacular as it really has been (so far).

Furthermore, it is really quite surprising that a team that plays in a supposedly 'defensive' Serie A as is the case with Juventus 2017/18, actually scored 77 goals, which looks great when compared to Real Madrid's 79 goals in a supposedly 'less defensive' La Liga, and this is without adjusting for the additional goal-scoring factor of Ronaldo, who some fans consider to be the greatest goal scorer of all time.

Of course another curiosity to look at, is the fact that Juventus with Ronaldo has scored 65 goals, when Real Madrid with Ronaldo had scored 79 goals, and when Juventus without Ronaldo had scored 77 goals. At any rate, there is something bizarrely wrong with 'goals' and their expected impact, that is, assuming that 'goals' actually are the most difficult and the most important thing in this sport, as is claimed so vociferously - religiously even - by the Ronaldo fans who have 'coined' that phrase.

Moreover, in terms of the relation between goal-scoring power versus point-scoring power; Napoli 2018 scored 66 goals, and Napoli 2019 scored 60 goals, and yet Napoli 2019 sits 11 points behind their own position from 2018... Clearly, goals are not even remotely close to being as important as Ronaldo fans so strongly believe.

Similarly, Real Madrid 2018 scored 79 goals, and Real Madrid 2019 scored 56 goals, and yet Real Madrid 2019 sits 6 points behind their own position from 2018, and this is without even adjusting for the fact that Real Madrid 2018/19 has been one of the most chaotic and dysfunctional Real Madrid sides ever. Clearly, Cristiano Ronaldo's value in the long league format is very very overrated, especially in the years where Ronaldo produced his most clinical Champions League campaigns.

1-0 win for Juventus / away game.

^ Juventus 2018/19 (with Ronaldo not in great form) vs. Manchester United.

1-2 defeat for Juventus / home game.

^ Juventus 2018/19 (with Ronaldo in great form) vs. Manchester United.

1-0 win for Portugal / France as hosts.

^ Portugal 2016 (without Ronaldo) vs. France.

1-2 defeat for Portugal / Russia as hosts.

^ Portugal 2018 (with Ronaldo in great form in the lead up to this game) vs. Uruguay.

Important goals not scored by Ronaldo versus total goals scored by the team (Champions League):

club name / important goals not scored by Ronaldo / total goals by team * this of course includes Ronaldo's goals.

Real Madrid 2014 / 8 goals in 7 games / 21 goals.

Portugal 2016 / 6 goals in 7 games / 9 goals.

Real Madrid 2016 / 2 goals in 7 games / 8 goals.

Real Madrid 2017 / 8 goals in 7 games / 20 goals.

Real Madrid 2018 / 7 goals in 7 games / 16 goals.

Portugal 2018 / 1 goal in 4 games / 5 goals.

Juventus 2018 / 7 goals in 4 games / 7 goals.

Juventus 2019 / 0 goals in 4 games / 5 goals.

Considering all of the above, there is so much mounting 'circumstantial evidence' that I don't think it is all that important to immediately and then conclusively demonstrate something as complex as my argument; and again, conclusively proving my premise would require years and an actual team of statisticians, so expecting me to do it on my own, with just a few hours or less per day, is beyond absurd. At any rate, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that can be found in consecutive years.

Namely the abnormal results such as Portugal winning Euro Finals without Ronaldo, or Juventus vs. Manchester United being a win when Ronaldo is far from great, or Juventus vs. Manchester United being a defeat when Ronaldo is at his very best, or Portugal being utterly mediocre vs. Uruguay when Ronaldo was having the best World Cup of his career, etc. Completely abnormal results in a very short span of time... And indeed, it is true that Messi vs. Juventus 2017 was good and yet Juventus won 3-0, but the fact is that Messi didn't actually scored any goals nor assists. In sharp contrast, Ronaldo is actually scoring tons of goals, in fact this is the best he's ever been in terms of scoring goals, and yet his teams continue getting bad results against 'beatable' sides such as Uruguay, Manchester United, or Ajax.

And on a different note, in all honesty, in the realm of premises that can or cannot be proven, I really feel compelled to call you out on your abhorrent overt hypocrisy.

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/maradona-86-vs-messi-14.2008702/page-141#post-37684900

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@celito

Cedric Soares, the Southampon full-back, revealed how Ronaldo had inspired the win."He gave us a lot of confidence and he said, 'Listen people, I'm sure we will win this Euro so stay together and fight for it'."It was unbelievable,” Soares added. “All the team had a fantastic attitude and showed that when you fight as one you are much, much stronger.

"He was fantastic. His attitude was unbelievable. At half-time he helped a lot, our colleagues, he had always a lot of motivational words. All the team reacted to them so it was very, very good."

Eder, the match-winner, also praised Ronaldo’s motivational abilities and claimed that the 31-year-old had predicted that he would score the decisive goal

Ronaldo told me I would score the winning goal for the team," he told O Jogo, the Portuguese newspaper. "He gave me this strength, this energy and it was vital."It was a goal I've been working for from the first minute of the Euros,” he added.

View attachment 151815
View attachment 151816

What you feel or i feel is irrelevant in this context
"Being over the top" got portugal over the line
This is a fact

This is what is meant by leadership(that has many forms)and lionel messi definately was not in that category of players who could inspire his teammates.
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What I feel is irrelevant. What you feel is irrelevant. The only thing that is not irrelevant is that Ronaldo definitely somehow delivered a MOTM performance throughout the Euro Final that he did not play, that is, on the basis of not even actually playing the freaking game, which of course, in your mind, is clear-cut evidence that demonstrates Ronaldo's legendary leadership; and not with Ronaldo on the pitch, oh no, Ronaldo is such an amazing leader that he can do the work from the bench...

I mean, Ronaldo's masterful leadership is one of those consistent certainties that you can easily remember across time, off-the-top of your head even, the examples are almost too many to remember in one sitting... for example, who could forget when Ronaldo almost seemingly 'on his own' transformed Juventus 2019 into a one dimensional side that could only score headers?? A lot of colorful leadership on display there. Or for that matter, who could forget when Ronaldo's unique leadership inspired Portugal 2018 into punching well below their potential at the time?? The results demonstrate, consistently and beyond any reasonable doubt, what can only be some form of CR7 magic leadership ability, which he apparently used to great effect when he almost single-handedly (but without playing) inspired Portugal 2016 into delivering an upset for the ages, against not only France as the host nation, but France as the same generation that won World Cup 2018.

"Ronaldo being over the top from the bench is what got Portugal over the line... This is a fact."

A fact proven by... words... and not only words, but words spoken by the Portuguese player who actually scored the goal to win the Euro, that is, words spoken by a compromised speaker... I mean, that is how incredibly low the bar is for you when it comes to 'facts' that you think strengthen Ronaldo's legacy; you will go so far as to think that Eder's compromised commentary is equivalent to a 'fact' to be thrown into a serious discussion... On the other hand, when I make an argument that you disagree with, you demand 'facts' and 'complete data' at every point. I mean, how do you not see the outrageous hypocrisy of your entire narrative??

Did you even watched Real Madrid 2012 - 2018??

Benzema largely assisted Ronaldo on the basis of this thing called 'decoy runs', decoy runs are basically assists but without the ball, similar to 'playmaking' but without the ball, the fact that you fail to appreciate just how great Benzema was at it, is emblematic of Ronaldo fans who have absolutely no idea of how tactics work, I mean, I can only assume that your attention span stops the moment the ball is not on Ronaldo's feet, because the tactics are literally naked for the eyes to see...

Benzema runs off-the-ball with the express intention of attracting the attention of at least 1 defender at a time or hopefully 2 defenders at a time, and said 1 or 2 defenders are - per the design of the tactic - supposed or expected to run after Benzema, therefore creating a gap of empty space right inside the penalty box, which is how Ronaldo came in like a ghost - centrally or from wide areas, but always between the lines, running into the box, but never already inside the box and with a defender on his back which is how traditional strikers are required to play - which is how Benzema assisted Ronaldo. Benzema's assists are not statistics on paper, but that is precisely how Ronaldo scored a ton of his tap ins, headers, etc.

The fact that I have to educate you about how Ronaldo was assisted by Benzema, clearly exposes the fact that you have absolutely no clue not even about something as naked to the eye as that. You have zero understanding of statistics, so it comes as no surprise to me that you actually believe - laughing my ass off this is hilarious - that Ronaldo actually somehow did 'more assisting' and 'more playmaking' than Benzema, except for the fact that for some reason Ronaldo never assists the goals scored by Benzema, because Benzema is the one who actually 'assists' Ronaldo, because the peasant is meant to assist the master.

"Benzema did the donkey peasentry work for ronaldo but has less CL assists in that time."

I mean, honestly, it's just hilarious how you fail to see the irony of completely absurd statements... Somehow it miraculously escapes your capacity to think rationally, the fact that Ronaldo has more traditional assists than Benzema because - BECAUSE - Benzema does not enjoy the creative freedom that is required to produce something as mundane as a traditional assist, which is the whole point of Benzema's peasantry, the fact that he cannot do much else besides assist Ronaldo on the basis of 'decoy runs' and/or score the occasional goal.

At any rate, you totally fail to understand simple concepts such as Benzema's assists to Ronaldo, which are not traditional assists, and if you are so out of your depth that you cannot even understand such a - naked to the eye - statistic not written on paper, then how... I mean... how can you even have as many opinions as you have about skills that you cannot even see in the first place?? It's bizarre to say the least.

Not only did Ronaldo not contribute with high quality playmaking relative to his position, but in fact, Ronaldo not being allowed to do that (anywhere near as self-indulgently and as inefficiently as he could before Ancelotti) is the single greatest reason as to why Real Madrid 2014 even won the Champions League... The fact that Ancelotti reduced Ronaldo's overrated 'playmaking' influence over the team, which allowed the team to flourish after so many years of being under Ronaldo's ego-driven shackles.

Again, this is another abnormality to Ronaldo, the fact that his Champions League KO Stage career is so much better after 2013, as opposed to during 2009 - 2013, when he was in his 'playmaking' prime if you can honestly call that 'playmaking' which I do not. With all due respect, you have a very obfuscated or just convenient concept of what 'playmaking' is.

You repeatedly perceive these 'double standards' that you accuse me of, purely by virtue of the fact that you have absolutely no respect for the concept of ideas that you disagree with... For example, the idea that I know for a fact that Real Madrid versus Schalke 2014 was a pathetic 9-2 result that showcased the unprecedented disparity between a super-club and what I call a peasant-club. Therefore, if my argument explicitly is about 'meaningful goals' scored at the Champion League KO Stage, I have the right to not include anything Ronaldo did vs. Schalke, because nothing statistically meaningful ever actually happens in a 9-2 aggregate victory.

How is the concept of an idea that hurts Ronaldo and Messi equally, in your opinion somehow fundamentally a 'double standard' against Ronaldo?? Is it because Ronaldo scores a lot of statistics in garbage time and/or in blow-out wins, far more than Messi does it?? And if so, how the hell does that make me biased against Ronaldo??

At any rate, accusing me of being 'dishonest' and an 'overlord of double standards' simply because you fundamentally disagree with reality, is just silly and childish.

And as for Romario (who you hate so much that you insert his name into any and every discussion), Romario obviously never played for Barcelona teams that could casually win 9-2 against Schalke.

 

That was more or less exactly my point, Ronaldo with his 'gazillion goals per season' aura, was honestly always a statistical fraud to a significant degree, because the majority of those goals were always scored in blow-out wins, in garbage time, and against vastly inferior opponents. Not to mention that Benzema has better open-play goals (not one of them assisted by Ronaldo) and also better open-play assists than Ronaldo, in terms of La Liga games played vs. Barcelona.

So again, in summary, Ronaldo's legacy in La Liga is, in terms of the difficult games vs. Barcelona, offering inferior open-play statistics than Benzema did with far less service; and in terms of the less difficult La Liga games not played vs. Barcelona, Ronaldo has a proven legacy of scoring tons of goals in garbage time, against vastly inferior opponents, in 3rd place throughout the 2013 calendar year, etc.

Moreover, Ronaldo's statistical value in La Liga only became worse and worse with the passing of the years, which is, honestly, a big reason that helped - ACTUALLY HELPED - Real Madrid win their 2017 La Liga. Ronaldo is not only scoring less goals, but doing much less 'playmkaing' interaction, and yet somehow Real Madrid wins 1 out of the 2 La Liga titles that Ronaldo won... Absolutely overrated player as far as his legacy in La Liga goes, and especially when he was reduced to Morata-ish open-play statistics.

You look at Ronaldo's 2 La Liga titles, and in 2017 Ronaldo's open-play contribution is hardly any better than Morata's open-play contribution, and that is with Morata - a bench player - having played far less minutes than Ronaldo. Moreover, in 2012 Real Madrid had worst results than Barcelona had against the top 6 sides in La Liga, which means that Real Madrid 2012 won La Liga almost exclusively on the basis of how consistent they were at winning games versus the middle class and the lower class of the league, this always has been Ronaldo's strongest suit throughout his La Liga career, and in 2012 - for a change - it worked perfectly because Barcelona was shockingly inconsistent against the lower portion of the La Liga table. Also telling is the fact that Ronaldo's contributions in the games that are won, are extremely similar regardless of the season, and yet Real Madrid's placing in the league varies greatly regardless of how many goals and/or assists Ronaldo scores in any given campaign. Such bizarre inconsistencies between the statistics-scored by CR7 relative to the points-scored by Real Madrid, would never happen, let alone happen across 9 years worth of La Liga, if you gave Messi - or even Francesco Totti, I sincerely mean this - a platform such as Real Madrid 2009 - 2018.

I disagree with you for a change, I mean not that that's a bad thing lmao, but I think that you are unequivocally being disproportionately generous in favor of Ronaldo here... I mean, your argument appears to be that Real Madrid 2019 is the same team as the previous year, just without Cristiano Ronaldo. I strongly disagree with that.

I think that Real Madrid 2019 was a crucially different team to their previous year version, and in theory, it has virtually nothing to do with Ronaldo in a sense... Real Madrid 2018 had the second best or the third best player in the world going by popular perception, and if we are honest to ourselves, that could be Ronaldo or that could be Neymar (if he doesn't get injured) or that could even be Eden Hazard (if he miraculously wins the World Cup, for example), I mean, honestly, that could probably be many world class players when you attempt to adjust for the fact that Luka Modric - past his prime Luka Modric - was good enough to be considered the best player in the world, etc.

My conclusion is very simple: Real Madrid 2019 did not have any player who could 'predictably' slip into a top 5 ranking, and not necessarily because of Ronaldo's absence in the team, and perhaps not at all because of Ronaldo's absence, but primarily because Real Madrid 2019 decided to not sign an adequate replacement for Ronaldo. Eden Hazard would've been a great signing, Harry Kane would've also been a great signing, etc. In conclusion: I think it is very unfair to give Ronaldo that much credit, simply because Real Madrid's board of directors did a terrible job by not even attempting to replace a player as decisive as Ronaldo was.

Added to the above, it becomes necessary to at least attempt to account for unexpected factors, as is the case with Toni Kroos who declined both with Germany and with Real Madrid... I mean, it is difficult to explain Kroos' decline with Germany on the basis of Ronaldo's absence at Real Madrid, and not only because Ronaldo never played for Germany's national team, but perhaps most tellingly because Kroos was already well in decline WITH RONALDO throughout the 2017/18 season. Kroos' decline continued in season 2018/19, and I don't think it's reasonable to give Ronaldo additional credit just because he jumped out of a sinking ship. The same argument fundamentally applies almost identically to Luka Modric, Marcelo, and Casemiro (my god he was mediocre in 2018/19), etc.

Juventus is a fundamentally different argument, because Juventus sold Higuain and then signed Ronaldo, that is, Juventus replaced Higuain with a much better goal scorer in Ronaldo, and then somehow Juventus scores 12 goals less than the previous year. Then again, Juventus' decrease in goals hardly comes as a surprise if you are informed, I mean, Morata 2017 had better open-play statistics in La Liga than Ronaldo had. Why would Ronaldo at 34 years of age be much of an improvement over a younger Higuain?? He wasn't.

At any rate, fundamentally different arguments, aren't they? Juventus is virtually the same team that it was the previous year, just with Ronaldo instead of Higuain. On the other hand, Real Madrid off-loaded their biggest player, and did not so much as even attempted to replace said big player, which then adds to secondary factors such as James Rodriguez or Morata not playing at Real Madrid when they could have been playing at Real Madrid.

 

Pathetic argumentation, as usual. Not only do I rate Cristiano Ronaldo very highly as a clear-cut top 10 all timer, but additionally, I also happen to think that Ronaldo would probably be a clear-cut top 5 all timer today, if, and only if, Jose Mourinho had done in 2010, what Carlo Ancelotti immediately did in 2013, which was to significantly reduce Ronaldo's 'choke hold' over Real Madrid, limiting the scope of influence of Ronaldo on the pitch, which forced Ronaldo into becoming a better player.

Ronaldo with his pre-2014 superior physical play, but playing the role that he played in the post-2013 era, I think could've been - across all formats - a true rival to Messi... On the other hand, if you need a coach who - for whatever the reasons - is able to nullify or contain Ronaldo's detrimental statistical impulses, then that begs the question, how great was Ronaldo assuming that he himself - his obsession for insular pointless statistics at the expense of the aggregate detriment of the team - was his own worst enemy for so many years of his Real Madrid career??

In his Pre-2014 Real Madrid career, Ronaldo only managed to win one La Liga (2012) and one Copa del Rey (2011). On the other hand, in his Post-2013 Real Madrid career, Ronaldo managed to win one La Liga (2017) and four Champions League titles (2014, 2016, 2017, and 2018). Why is Ronaldo winning a lot more titles precisely after his role is significantly reduced in its scope of 'playmaking' influence??

The degree to which you need to delude yourself in order to deny the reality at large, is just astounding... I mean, it's just laughable at the same time that it is genuinely disturbing, to see how passionate and blind some fans are, for example, to see fans like yourself so capable of self-induced grand delusions in what evidently is a failing attempt to rationalize how Juventus with Gonzalo Higuain was scoring more goals - and the same exact points - as Juventus with Cristiano Ronaldo; or for that matter, how Atletico Madrid 2014 won La Liga, and not Real Madrid 2014... Shouldn't the influence and the 'leadership' of the great and mighty Cristiano Ronaldo in their ranks, be enough to win a La Liga against a 'beatable' Atletico Madrid??

I rate Cristiano Ronaldo very highly, I'm just not delusional enough to convince myself that he was better than Michel Platini, for example. Platini was better at the Euro, also better at the World Cup, and also better at league level. Meanwhile, the Champions League did not existed as a format in Platini's time, but even when we directly compare the difficult to even qualify for Champions League of Platini's time (back when second place in the league was not enough), the conclusion remains equally one-sided in favor of Platini, that is, in this format (as in all the other formats) Platini is in relative terms better and he does it with much less opportunities; Champions League Final in his first season with Juve; Cup Winners' Cup Final in his second season with Juve; Euro 1984 glory at the tail end of his second season with Juve; Champions League Final in his third season with Juve; Champions League Quarter Final exit in his fourth season with Juve; Champions League Round of 16 exit in his final season with Juve, etc.

Please take note that, as is normally the case, Platini achieves better results when Platini was himself a better player, when Platini was himself a player in his prime; the big results do not occur after Platini becomes a lesser player in the post-1985 era due to age related decline, and not only that, Platini always reached the finals of all the international cup tournaments that he played in his prime.

In sharp contrast, with Cristiano Ronaldo we are forced into having to entertain the idea that this guy is definitely 'goat territory' as a player, and that, somehow, this 'goat' caliber player only won 2 La Liga titles in 9 campaigns of La Liga, and that, somehow, the vast majority of his Champions League titles occur well after his physical 'playmaking' prime, and that, somehow, one of his two La Liga titles also occurs well after his physical 'dribbling and playmaking' prime. How many other legendary players get inflated that significantly on the basis of team results that occur well after the physical primes of the players in question??

The sheer amount of abnormalities or anomalies that cloud Ronaldo's legacy, are just too much for me to simply ignore. Great player. Clear-cut top 10 all timer in my book. But I do hesitate when Ronaldo fans inflate him into top 5 territory, on the basis of statistical hubris.

The only irrelevant thing here is your complete incapacity to understand very simple concepts. Nobody expects Benzema to 'lead the line' of a stacked Real Madrid, the same way that nobody expected Pippo Inzaghi to 'lead the line' of an AC Milan that was built around no singular player... The self-evident difference between a 'peasant' and a 'knight' and a 'king' is obvious enough, that your dishonest interpretation of this simple argument just comes off as insufferably disingenous on your part.

You are literally saying that Benzema being reduced to a 'peasant' is necessary because he cannot 'lead the line' of a team that barely won anything important at any point in Ronaldo's physical prime... How do you fail to realize the absurdity of your failed argument??

Benzema scored more open-play goals than Ronaldo in the La Liga Clasico, but Ronaldo did not assisted any of Benzema's goals, and Benzema assisted 2 goals of Ronaldo, and Benzema also assisted - decoy run assists - several other goals by Ronaldo. So your argument here appears to be that Benzema, a player who outclasses Ronaldo in terms of open-play statistics in the La Liga Clasico, somehow Benzema (in his prime) would have 'struggled' against the other La Liga teams not Barcelona. Your evidence?? There is no evidence. You simply do not rate Benzema at all.

Secondary players traditionally had never quite reduced themselves to the severe 'peasantry' that was Benzema at Real Madrid. You speak about 'team dynamics' and yet, you clearly fail to understand the unprecedented nature of the tactics that were built around Ronaldo.

What are Real Madrid's results at any point between 2009 and 2016??

Champions League 2014

^ Scoring only 1 important goal and 1 important pre-assist after 7 games, is extremely ordinary, and not only is it extremely ordinary, but it actually is below what Ramos and Benzema did that season (in terms of meaningful statistics).

Champions League 2016

^ Scoring 3 goals in 2 games vs. Wolfsburg, is completely ordinary for a vastly superior club such as Real Madrid.

In conclusion: I do not unconditionally believe that team results are always, by definition always, easily replicated on the basis of simply replacing Ronaldo with Ibrahimovic; that is not my argument at all... My argument is much less ambitious than that, that is, my argument is merely that when Ronaldo's meaningful statistical contribution is demonstrably inferior when compared to Ramos or Benzema (Champions League 2014), and when Ronaldo's meaningful statistical contribution is 3 goals in 2 games against an 8th place club (Champions League 2016), then indeed, I absolutely see no reason why Zlatan Ibrahimovic (preferably in his prime, that is, before 2013) would not have won those 2 Champions League titles.

In other words: the qualitative nature of Ronaldo's meaningful contributions is essential, to whether or not I think that a player like Zlatan Ibrahimovic would offer basically the same exact statistical meaningful contribution. As an obvious example, I cannot reasonably imagine Zlatan Ibrahimovic replicating the devastating form of Messi vs. Real Madrid 2011 (Champions League semi Finals 2011). In sharp contrast, I can definitely see Zlatan Ibrahimovic scoring and/or being involved in 3 goals in 2 games vs. Wolfsburg. On a similar note, I can also definitely see Zlatan Ibrahimovic having only 1 meaningful goal and 1 meaningful pre-assist in 7 games at Champions League 2014. At any rate, I continue to fail to understand how any of this is somehow uniquely 'unfair' to Ronaldo. I mean, it is not my fault that Ronaldo - unlike most legends - won his most important titles well after his physical prime, and also largely on the basis of completely ordinary statistical contributions as was the case in 2014 and 2016.

If you have actually adequately read said - "wall of texts" - arguments, you would know that I think that Ronaldo's athleticism was largely used to score a gazillion goals against inferior opponents and/or in garbage time, which is precisely why you get the bizarre disconnection between Real Madrid's team results relative to Ronaldo when he was at his athletic best.

In other words, I do not deny that said athleticism allowed him to score a gazillion goals, instead, my point is that the vast majority (especially in the Champions League) of those gazillion goals are occuring within the confines of statistical irrelevance, that is, in garbage time, after results are done and dusted, or simply against inferior opponents such as Schalke (9-2 defeats are virtually impossible in a balanced format). In terms of meaningful contributions, Ronaldo is ordinary in 2014 and 2016.

Benzema is an abject finisher but somehow scores more open-play goals vs. Barcelona for some reason.

By the way, I don't think that Benzema is amazing in terms of finishing, but I do think that quite probably his 'abject finishing' has a lot to do with the qualitative nature of the chances he gets; firstly, he does not consistently gets chances, and so his cblade gets dull in a sense; and secondly, when he does get a chance, it generally isn't a tap in is it?? I doubt he even gets that many clear-cut easy chances.

At any rate, Ronaldo is obviously a superior finisher. This proves nor disproves nothing about my argument though.

Because I don't have a lot of time on my hands to be able to watch videos and then create commentary and arguments around said videos.

Here's a thought: Why don't you offer video analysis if you think that it would 'easily' demonstrate some conclusive truth about post-2013 Ronaldo??