Cristiano Ronaldo: How overrated is his post-2015 legacy ?? Video analysis and discussion thread.

Give me pens (both messi and ronaldo had ridiculous amounts in 2012). Show goals. How many are set up, hiw many individual briliance? Show the contex of each goal. Was it during 5-0 or for 1-0 win. Were they consistent with scoring in all such games or did they score 3, 4 goals in several dominating games and went ghost mode in others.
How good each of those assists are? Was it 2 meter square pass or 35 meters diagonal pass to break a great defense?Were there any pre assists worth mentioning? Whats their involvment in those other goals?

The way you argue is ridiculous. No depth whatsoever. I can make anyone look great with selective data.

But what else can one expect from a person that says to leadleader that he writes too much as if there is something as having too much depth

This is how you find arguments in Cristiano vs Messi case. You look at stats to the point where Cristiano looks better than Messi and then you stop.
So in the case of champions league you pull out overall numbers because ronaldo happens to have better numbers and end conversation there. No questions asked. (Plus you make sure to call a fanboy anyone who doubts the relevance of stats). When thats not the case you go into goals vs top 6. Then periodic top 6. When thats not the case you go for goals involvment or some other angle that proves cristianos superiority. Perhaps minutes per goal.. if nothing works you make sure you dont ever talk about it, ever.

There is fabulous quote ive heard on the internet:
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything.

It certainly applies to you.

 

And why top 6 why not top 5 or top 4? Does ronaldo need that 6th periodic team to compete number-wise?
I certainly wouldnt be surprised if it turns out he did.

 

Personal attack! Me personally attacking you! I never even quoted your post! I was talking to @leadleader. I never even mentioned you until you quoted me! I'm talking to leadleader about the facts of human nature and you tell me to relax. This is facts. Dont get mad at me because I report something you dont want to hear. I quoted leadleader not you. You telling me to relax and bringing no value to the conversation because I am merely speaking proven behaviors of human nature.
I initially quoted leadleader and then you tried to decipher my quote to fit your agenda. Even when @Sexy Beast told you that you deciphered my message incorrectly you insisted that you were correct. And you did this all to try and prove a point to @leadleader.
Dude, this is a forum where people think. If you're trying to sort things out in a way where you try and make other people look bad for mistakes that you make, then you have another thing coming.
And you talk about self awareness but when I bring up facts of human nature you tell me to relax. And judging people in a few sentences. How am I doing that?! Youre trying to demeanize @leadleader because of his in depth posts by saying that they should be shorter to meet the demands of the masses, bringing up Marketing101. Where do the masses go???! Instagram and YouTube, certainly not here! I'm not judging you as a person, but you are certainly exhibiting behaviors that cause me to come to such a conclusion

 

If messi ranked first here(as you expected)you would be repping my post and not crying about it

If you have the time(your own time) you can calculate the pre assists of both players
Post your findings for everyone to see

 

Leadleader, great post.
I realized that in CR7' s career he accomplishes the most when he is part of a team and not when the team submits to him (from a post you made many months ago).
I believe the same thing is hurting Messi. I am beginning to come to the realization that Messi plays to much of a role for Barcelona and they need a coach who has the balls to override the demands of Messi. Messi moves where he wants, doesnt defend regularly, and has a role in who plays in the starting line up (I think). Its hurting him with Argentina as well. Dybala should always start for Argentina. There is no case where he should not have started regularly at the World Cup. messi doesnt defend enough and it hurts the team. I look at games against Roma and Liverpool in the CL and I just wander would the same thing happen if Messi put in the same amount of defensive effort as Liverpool did and if the whole team followed his lead??
One thing is for sure. Guardiola demands that regardless of how good you are. The same reason why we probably see Sterling play more than Sane. That Barca team was just as ferocious defensively as they were offensively.
Messis best years where the those in which he played an important role but only within the context of a team (Barcelona 08-12, maybe 12-13 bar injuries). Same with CR7, Manchester United and Madrid 14-present.

 

I virtually never rep anyone's posts.

I do it in three ocassions:
- someone writes a very well summarized post in a way i wouldnt be able to do myself that i completely stand by
- among other things, they make at least a single great point thats relevant that i havent considered yet in my perspective. It gave me something to think about.
- acknowledges my post and furthers it with valuable links

Since you do neither, ive probably never repped your post or will i so dont bother fishing for reps from me.

I wonder when will you realize that it's only you who pushes the fanboyism narrative and that it actually doesnt exist and that that way you are ending convo at the roots. There is no "us" you are fighting against.
I am here for depth and the truth so i could learn about life from the game i love. I am silmuteniously entertained by arguing, sharpening my argumentations tools and learning about life. Great deal if you ask me.

You are my enemy only in the sense of promoting shallow thinking. I would loved if you could challenge my inner "fanboyism", but you cant or i should rather say, you dont.

 

Ok beast

If i was fishing for reps id be singing from the same hymn sheet as the rest of the choir
The "fanboyism" narrative is real and grounded in reality
You cant see it because you yourself are part of the problem

Ive advocated for messi (his case as a superior footballer)on too many times to count
And even if i didnt id have nothing to prove...to you(who are you that i should appeal to your fanboy tendencies or make structured arguments that conform to your twisted version of reality)

Ill say as ive always said
Leave of the ad hominem attacks and keep this on topic
You dont like my approach or "manipulated" statistics than provide a counter argument
If not close your mouth

 

This is very easy to realize that he doesnt, at least in Argentinas case. How?
Over the last few years there were several coaches managing Argentina and every single one of them started a completely different team in their first few official games.
Does Messi all of a sudden changes his view on football every time a coach gets fired? He recently even publicaly sad thats not true, that if he did do that, he would obviously put Aguero next to him in every single game cause they are the best friends. And thats clearly not the case.

And if he doesnt do that in Argentina where he is an alpa and omega and cares about winning moreso than in Barca shirt, why would he do that in Barcelona?
Villainaizing Messi in that way is very irrational in my opinion and it has no ground on.

The thing with Messi is that he is not a leader that his teammates want him to be. He is too passive and consistently refuses to take on that role that everyone so much wants him to take. Maradona like leader. He also should be one to say that they dont have to pass to him every time, he should be one promoting his teams independence of him, but he just doesnt do that and consequences are obvious. Thats the only major flaw i can see in his overall football career.

About defending..
Was he defending in the first leg? Whats the deal then?
Messi is not defending by tracking back, he rarely does, but there is no need to do that. Defending is not merely putting players at the back, it is about spreading the field with players in the right way, in front and behind the ball.
Thats the misconception ive had for a very long time. Ive always wondered why they dont just all track back and be aggressive. I thought the best way to defend is to always have all players inbetween the ball and goal, but thats not the case. Thats not how you defend space. You have to spread players so that they cover as much space as possible and yet are compact enough to have an access to the oppositions. Sometimes you want opposition to pass the ball inbetween your lines so that you have players all around the ball (the pressing traps). If everybody tracks back there is an openning somewhere else. There is a great website explaining stuff like that: https://spielverlagerung.com/?doing_wp_cron=1558222396.0160400867462158203125

Long story short, for Messi to be useful defensively he merely needs to cut off passing lines to Van dijk, for example, and he is fine. He doesnt have to go all Vidal mode. It would be counter productive to have several players like that on the field.

Plus Messi should take part in a high press, which he did in both games.

Also a thing to have in mind is that more messi defends, less effective he is offensively.
Messi often completely abandons his defensive responsibilities because he positionates himself in a way that he believes will give him the biggest advantage if potential counter atttack happens. For example if he notices that opposition lost the ball on their right side three times in a row, he will occupy central position so that if Alba or someone on that side wins the ball, he immidiately becomes a valuable passing option. Those are all the things to consider. Now you can pick an choose what do you prefer

Its not laziness that cost them match. Pro tip: its never the lack of effort that loses matches on the big scene, despite what 95% casual fans say.

 

I always provide then you shut the debate.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.go...in-first-season-in/15qcg5ot8u0fp1i4heeuip14t5
Well deserved
The only player in history to be officially recognised as the best in england,spain and italy the 3 best continental leagues of his era

The double standards continue of course
There is "confusion" seeing as quaglieralla a conventional striker is top scorer(2 years older than CR a LWF)

No confusion about R9 a forward in his prime being outscored by a 30 year old bierhoff(which if adjusted for developments in sports science and training methods was like being in your mid 30s today)

 

1. You make some good points here. Obviously its impossible for us to know if Messi has any influence on who is chosen for the match but I do remember reading an article of a reporter in Barcelona who stated that when Ibrahimovic was on the team, Messi expressed to Guardiola that he didnt like him because he wasnt playing in the middle. And as bad as argentina is (in terms of offensive quality), there is no way that Dybala should not be playing. But you do you have a point in mentioning how certain things dont respresent a consistent pattern to demonstrate that Messi is actually influencing the team, but even suggesting 1 or 2 players to start can mess up the balance of a team. But all in all, I could give you the benefit of the doubt and admit that your reasoning makes more sense and that Messi in FACT does not have a role in influencing who plays for Barca or Argentina.

2. You make some good points about defending. Mourinho has had teams who were not running all over the place BUT dont misunderstand what I'm saying. Intensity has nothing to do with pressing or sitting back. A team can have intensity doing both. Whether its Mourinho's Inter team or klopps Liverpool team. But Barcelona's team lacked intensity. And lets be honest, in the last 2 seasons can you ever say that there was a period where Barcelona played with high intensity???
If Valverde cant get this team to play with high intensity then the only other player I can see who leads the pack is Messi. I dont believe Messi has to fully commit to defending because he brings so much in the attack. But if Valverde cant pick up and demand his team then I expect Messi to lead by example and demand his teammates to pick up the intensity. And not just for the game but the weeks leading into the game. Messi has an incredible amount of influence and Valverde apparently doesnt have the balls to demand the intensity. And I see you mentioned this as a flaw in Messi's career. Overall I agree with your analysis but I blame Messi because he has to demand more of his teammates. Things that athletes like Tom Brady and Michael Jordan regularly do. I'm sure even a player like Johan Cruyff did that and Maradona as you mentioned as well

 

I think that's bs. CR7 was not the best player in the league. Its just his marketing power. He didnt even score the most goals in the league. If CR7 was a playmaker then I could understand that. CR7 has had too many average performances to be considered the best in the league and not have the most amount of goals. I probably would have chosen a midfielder or defender instead. Dont get me wrong. CR7 may be the best player but I doubt he deserved it for this one particular season

 

I’ve always believed that it was a huge mistake from Juventus to spend 105m on a 33 year old Ronaldo.

Higuain and Dybala, as a duo, were good enough to win the Champions League.

Juventus would have been much better off if they had instead spend that 100m on a creative midfielder like Isco, Pogba or De Bruyne. They need creativity from midfield a lot more than they needed Ronaldo.

But hey, I’m not complaining...

 

Its bs ok
He is the highest rated according to DBS calcio
The highest rated according to whoscored
Are these marketing awards mate?

Do you understand the difference between a conventional striker who is a box player and a LWF who spends substantial periods in wide areas(are the heat maps from this season also part of a huge marketing deception)
https://www.google.com/amp/www.spor...es-more-than-just-a-poacher-20181229.amp.html
Does having average performances detract from his claims?
Did the other candidates for best serie A player that you havent bothered to list not have average performances?

Was R9 97/98 a playmaker(with 6 assists)
He was outscored in his prime by a 30 year old bierhoff
Did this detract from his award?
Nope because he was more of a soloist less reliant on service(more involved in build up too)

 

If i can add to defending part. Messi doesnt pick and choose moments when he feels like defending or not, its the gameplay that they come up with beforehand (applies to argentina as well). They probably thought this: We have 3-0 lead, if we had an away goal it would make a big difference and since Liverpool likes to build from the back with Van Dijk why dont you just cut off passing lines toward Van Dijk, force Liverpool to play with midfielders. Dont bother tracking back, save your energy defensively so that we can hit them with counter attacks and get that one goal.. in theory that makes sense because dribbling is the football's most energy expensive activity, actually duels that dribblings bring are, but however, the energy that he spends on defense is the same energy he wont have in attack. Have in mind Messi is 31 and has never been particularly good at stamina.
You cant just add more intensity in defense and expect no consequences offensively. There is always a trade off. They thought that that amount of engagement by Messi was the optimal strategy ti win vs Liverpool. It turns out it wasnt. Simple as that but i woudlnt put that on Messis effort or motivation or arrogance or anything of that sort.

Leadership is the different thing and i agree 100 percent with your statements. And you gave great examples as well, but i dont think defending is the solution to that. I dont think it would make any difference. Its a deeper leadership problem than just: Messi doesnt defend. Maradona wasnt particularly active defensively as well.

He is just not that kind of personality although in Messis defense he did show some frustration with his teammates always passing the ball to him. In first game, Vidal, after a pass from Messi, tried to pass it back to him although he had a good opportunity to shot and Messi was furious with that.

He is a too passive personality to fill the role he is pushed to have and he is not changing enough. Thats as far as a can diagnose the problem.

 

i never believed that your sudden turn on Messi was ever sincere.

you were a staunch detractor of Messi's game in the beginning when you joined this forum. And then all of a sudden you apparently came around and ever since you are advocating for Messi?

Seeing people change their minds on players is by virtue a good thing. But, I have noticed a few things in your comments when praising Messi, that doesn't feel right.

I asked you once, months ago, what made you do it. You responded by saying that you were convinced by @leadleader who provided you with some insights. That you realized that Messi had some qualities you didn't saw in the beginning, but that, since then, you have come to appreciate these qualities for what it is.

Yet, the same kind of evidence that somehow convinced you that Messi had qualities you never appreciated in him before, are also the same qualities seen in peak Ronaldinho's game at Barca. If you showed humbleness and gave Messi a chance to look impartially into his game, apparently making you come around to him, how come you haven't shown the same humbleness to look into the same kind of evidence for Ronaldinho? To the contrary, in every chance you get, you put Ronaldinho down. Feels like you have been selective at choosing who and who you would be impartial towards.

I must apologise if I am wrong with my allegations here above. But, your sudden twist of views on Messi in conjunction with your continued staunch criticism of (peak) Ronaldinho tells a different story. This contradiction undermines your claim that you are a sincere Messi advocate.

Nevertheless, I think I am right!

Your advocation for Messi, in my opinion, is nothing more than a rhetorical tactic to appear as if you are a neutral and objective poster without an agenda. It is a mere decoy to conceal your hatred for Messi.

Took me some time to decide whether to post this comment are not. Cause I know now, it will draw a lot of heat on me. But you know what? Life is short so Fxxxck it!

@ko242 @Sexy Beast pay attention to past and present posts of him. His criticisms and sudden turns and twists in views for certain players are in the least suspect to the credibility

 

Debunking a few myths related to HGH

• HGH offer no gains in muscle strength.

• It can be a potent burner of fat, especially stubborn visceral fat.

• It will help preserve the muscle around the joint by activating IGF-1 that stimulates muscular growth while blocking another protein, myostatin, which is triggered by injury and curbs that growth. In short, it can be a measure for faster recovery from sports injuries. Although the research is still too sparse to draw conclusions.

• There is no evidence that HGH slows aging.

• HGH replacement therapy can improve quality of life, memory, and other concerns among veterans with pituitary gland damage from concussions.

https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19523398/truth-about-hgh/

 

Find me the quote where i claimed explicitly or implicitly that leadleader made me change my opinion on messi

Find it ,post it and ill leave this forum permanently



Ive been a forum member nigh on 3.5 years and in that time have contributed with many all time lists.
Find me one where i ranked ronaldo as a greater historical legend than messi

Find it,post it and ill leave this forum permanently


For this and dozens of shameful lies youve attributed to me ive told you not to address me
Yet you still continue to do so
Anyone who has been here long enough can see you for what you are
A LIAR

 

Are you equating ronaldinho with messi
Do they belong in the same hemisphere


Messi in his second half of 2006/07 was already as great as dinho in his dribbling prime for barcelona(03/04)
Prime ronaldinho when asked if he was the best player in the world said he wasnt even the best player at barcelona

Im not here to entertain any of your revisionist delusions
Messi has been since 21 years old a demonstrably superior player to ronaldinho
A 5 min highlight reel with techno music will not change this

 

Bierhoff scored 27 goals out of Udinese's 62 goals. That is 43% goal contribution
R9 scored 25 goals out of Inter's 62 goals. That is 40% contribution

Inter conceived 27 goals whilst Udinese conceived 40 goals against that season. Inter ended with 69 points whilst Udinese 64.

Inter goal difference was way superior to Udinese, 35 to 22 respectively.

Hence, Inter 97/98 was a more offensive team than Udinese, and arguably had a weaker defence to Udinese.

Hence, without looking into the match by match performances of Udinese and Inter in each round of the season in the league, and considering the quality of the players in support for both strikers here, it is easily conceivable that R9 had a better attacking environment to score 25 goals, whilst Bierhoff still managed to outscore him, with 25, while playing in a less attacking team.

My view is, (without at both assists stats for that year) if strikers main role is to score goals, and the Balon D'Or criteria for that year (97/98) was to award the best "striker" based on scoring than Bierhoff should have been awarded the title.

But he didn't get it, because he was not a global phenomenon as marketable and influential as R9 was. R9 got the award not for being a better player in the pitch to Bierhoff that year, but more to do with marketing! R9 (after his scintillating previous season at Barca), had the bigger sponsors, bigger fans around the world, the more money invested in. Endorsers played a big role in the Balon back then. Not much different than today. It was all business as usual.

@ko242

 

You missed the point. No, I did not equate Ronaldinho with Messi. I wasn't even comparing Dinho to Messi at all! I was comparing the discrepancy if not outright hypocrisy in your approach to both players. Being generous to one while being hostile to another.

Ronaldinho was being polite here. Most top players, professional athletes across all sports, do this often, being cordial to the press and keeping humbleness. It is also a way of showing respect and admiration for colleagues. Why boast about oneself when the facts can do the talking for itself?

But all who witnessed that season knows Dinho was the main driving force behind Barca's successes. Not Messi.

Of course not. However, we know that you are here to entertain yourself and your agenda.

I was not talking about the last 21 years. I was talking about "peak" Ronaldinho

 

A marketing ploy lol
Are you going to say this was special effects

This propaganda attempt of yours is intrinsically linked to your pro romario agenda
You will deny it and i dont care anyways
You percieve R9 to be a rival to your childhood hero so will at any given opportune latch onto any comment written by any poster and structure your narrative around it

 

]

Nice, good refreshment of memory. But could you stop going off on a tangent with me with that video

That video does not explain nor give any insight into the importance of a player for the outcome of his clubs success in the league overall. All it does is show skills, technique and aesthetics on the individuality of a player. R9 was always a class above technically and as a player overall to Bierhoff, that was not my argument.

I reiterate my earlier point which you either seem to not dig or you're intentionally trying to evade answering with a youtube video distraction.

Again, with disregard for aesthetics and the sensational (as shown in the video above), Bierhoff's contributed to 43% of total goals Udinese scored that season. Udinese conceived 40 goals against, making Udinese one of the worse defensive teams that season.
In turn, R9 contributed to 40% to the total goals Inter scored that season. Inter conceived 27 goals against, making them the very best defensive side that season.

It is obvious Inter was a more attacking side than Udinese was that season. It is also obvious Inter had the better defensive side of all clubs that entire season. Therefore, R9 had better attacking support to score 25 goals.

Whereas, Bierhoff had weaker support in the attack, and yet he still outscored R9. And all the while playing with a defence in shambles.

That R9 won the Balon award got nothing to do with his contributions to his team. But more to do with him being the foremost top superstar player in the world for already 3 years back to back since leaving PSV. He was the most endorsed and popular player of his time, if not all times. And yet, Bierhoff contributed more to Udinese's 3rd place than R9 contributing to Inter's 2nd place. But, this conclusion lacks stats for assists and pre-assist and also how each player influenced his respective team's performance match by match in the pitch.

 

@greatstriker11
Where is the evidential basis for any of your claims(i wil not let you slither away like a snake in the grass)
Quotes?

You have a history of this from the time you accused me of being a sock,to the times you have reported me to the mods,to the many dozens of times you have twisted my words out of context and attributed to me statements i did not make.