Van Basten's career was interrupted at age 28 by injuries, everyone knows that, but what would happen if Cristiano Ronaldo's career had ended by injuries at the end of the 2012-2013 season with the same 28 years old, where would you put him on the all-time best list above or below Van Basten? Van Basten honours: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_van_Basten#Honours 3 Eredivisie 3 Serie A 1 UEFA WinnersCup 2 UCL 1 Eurocup 3 x Ballon d'Or 4 x Eredivisie topscorer 2 x Serie A topscorer 1 x UCL topscorer 1 x Eurocup topscorer and MVP 2 x Eurocup team of the tournament (1988, 1992) Stats: 301 Goals, 431 Matches for NDL and Milan/Ajax Cristiano Ronaldo (until 12/13) honours: 3 Premier League 1 La Liga 1 UCL 1 x Ballon d'Or 2 x Premier League Player of the Season 1 x Premier League topscorer 1 x La Liga topscorer 2 x UCL topscorer 2 x Eurocup team of tournament (2004, 2012) Stats: 361 Goals, 624 Matches for PT and Sporting B, Sporting, ManU and Real Madrid
Respectfully I must say the entire premise of this thread is incorrect C.Ronaldo won 3 ballon dors at 24 years old Remember under pre 1995 rules non Europeans weren't eligible(George weah was the first) In 2007 he finished 2nd behind kaka a brazilian In 2008 he won outright In 2009 he finished 2nd behind Messi an argentine So at 24 years old he was a 3x winner under old rules If you add up to 2013 he would be a 6x ballon dor winner by 28 years old because Lionel Messi would simply be ineligible (as were pele and Maradona in their respective eras) You already know why the gpg thing is disingenuous It isn't as if we're comparing players in identical positions let alone leagues (van Basten played in serie A-its historical peak but most of his goals came in Holland what was their elo position in the mid 80s?) Let's take 2012/13 in complete isolation because you mentioned it as a cut off point I reviewed his matches from this season around one year ago as late as 2012 there are still games of CR looking like the best winger in the world with some unbelievably executed crosses In others he is the most complete goalscorer I've ever seen live (specifically in this season) 55 goals+12 assists in 55 games gives the impression that he is more of a traditional goalscorer It doesn't take into account he also provided 12 pre assists some of them more impressive than his assists It doesn't also take into account some of his passes that weren't converted were more impressive than his assists and pre assists. His 12/13 finishing and build up play I included in this comp below There were less mazy runs here but he was still pretty dangerous in open space situations His record vs Barcelona was otherworldly He scored 7 goals against them in one season This was a Barcelona that won the league with 100 points !!!!! I don't see the point of the comparison (even under this proposed cut off point) They are just markedly different players Merry Christmas to you and everyone else
1- There are not premises in this thread, there are facts. But you made a valid point, the Ballon d'Or in that time was only for european players, the counter point is that Van Basten could still have won that prize even if the South Americans were able to compete (up to discussion). 2- You can tell that most of his goals were scored in the Eredivisie, but VB still had a respectable record of 90 Goals in 147 Serie A matches and 20 to 28 in Europe for Milan (how he compares to the other forwards of his time in Serie A?). But keep in mind that Milan was ranked (according to the Elo method), just one season before Van Basten arrived, at 53º in the world and that Milan became the best team in the world at some point with Van Basten (among others) in. Also someone can argue that ManU and Real Madrid were already strong before CR7. 3- Obviously the two players are different (as are also Ronaldinho and CR7), but there is a point in common, Cristiano Ronaldo and Van Basten were probably, for the most part, the top shooters of their teams, and those who dominated the shooting zones the most too, in opposite to someone like Ronaldinho who was more responsible for the passes to the last third of the pitch and to the penalty area and less for the shots. Now, I didn't say they would have to be the same position or with the same skills, because after all, the list of the all-time players has from defenders to less mobile attackers. Btw, vote. And Merry Christmas.
I will give a vague description on this. But as a pure player Van Basten was better. But overall it's close. I do feel Van Basten has the ability to do more different things on the pitch were Ronaldo really specialized and mastered a very particular style of play. Van Basten was just as easily a number 10 as a number 9. CR7 was a pure 7. But he was the best pure number 7, next to Garrincha. I think CR7 and Garrincha would be more comparible as far as peak performance relative to positioning. I give CR7 huge respect. I dont see him as one of the most talented ever but his mentality puts him in with the best ever.
what is a pure number 7? A orthodox winger? how does a player who only specialised as a winger score 700+ goals? In arguably his best ever league performance he was operating as a trequartista, doing his damage in all attacking zones of the pitch (in the midfield, either flank and penalty area) Was he a winger in the 2016/17 where he scored 10 CL goals in 5 ko matches vs bayern, atletico and juventus? That was a complete masterclass of finishing from the CF position against the best teams in the world May I ask where are the games of van Basten where he is operating as a world class 10 A world class SS A world class WF A world class inside forward CR was all of that This isn't conjecture or exaggerations The performances are there and well documented Pele does Johan Cruyff did Bobby Charlton does Eusebio did Sir Alex ferguson does Alfredo di Stefano did As they say the overwhelming consensus is against you my friend Nice to see you are still in the business of peddling myths
Trequartista? World class #10? That's stretching it a bit. Cristiano's body of work is so vast, there is no need to exaggerate.
No way you can call pre-2014 Ronaldo a specialized player. Name me one attacking skill that pre-2014 Ronaldo wasn't at least "good" at. The man had no weakness when it came to attacking skills, and he applied those skills to affect the game in a very well-rounded manner. Now, you can argue that depending on Ronaldo to do so much was a bad plan to win titles (that's a whole different discussion altogether) but what is obvious is that Ronaldo was asked to do a lot of things, and he executed them to a high standard.
dude he called MVB a 10 or comfortable playing there What's next Franz Beckenbauer was comfortable playing as a striker??? as is typical no performances are put forward to substantiate any of his claims Van Basten could drop deep to link up with other teammates, could create and was adept a through balls,crossing and the occasional long pass ok fine That means he was a very well rounded and complete striker But still a striker Ko242 claimed van Basten could fulfil more attacking positions than CR and also to a higher degree LMFAO We are taking about a player who was voted European player of the year in 2006/07 playing as a orthodox winger Won the ballon dor in 2007/08 as a WF Won the ballon dor in 2017 as a CF There is no European outside of ferenc puskas who has fulfilled so many attacking positions to the highest possible standard Prime CR was a complete forward Complete in the truest sense of the word at his creative best he is a league above any conventional CF in terms of what he could offer Did Luis Figo a 'out and out winger' (and arguably one of the best ever in his position) deliver crosses and long balls with this kind of pin point precision 0:51 2:45 This is a part of his game The other includes 700 goals and counting Van Basten was technically great and not just for a striker Honestly though what Cris could do is far and beyond van Basten and any other striker What is it that made van Basten great His finishing? Hold up play Ability to play on the flank His dribbling (ajax days) His ball control Cris ticks all those boxes and to a much higher degree (maybe not the hold up play but surely every thing else When it comes to raw footballing talent thankfully we don't have to take into consideration difference of eras, sports science etc He is evidently superior as a all rounder(his skill set) only the greatest ever players were given a complete free role and creative licence in great teams Pele in Santos Di Stefano for Madrid Cruyff for ajax Messi in Barcelona CR had that same freedom to work his magic and propelled Manchester United to their greatest ever period of dominance between 2007-2009 van Basten was never that kind of player for Milan He was a role player (restricted too maybe by his ankle injury) But it doesn't matter because I'm not really interested in hypothesising about what he might of been When we think of van Basten we think of Milan, saachi and his revolutionary tactics, the two European cups (and record that stood for a quarter century) During this period van Basten was more times than not a restricted role player A number 9 who could drop deep and link with other attacking teammates But a player who dribbled notably less Scored notably less solo goals than he did in Holland Took less risk because of the punishment he was exposed to by Italian defenders
I'll go with CR because I think Van Basten was more like the current older Ronaldo. Beast finisher but didn't offer much in terms of playmaking, dribbling etc. whereas prime Cristiano was much more complete.
MVB offered more than most no.9s, especially of his days when they were less well-rounded than the modern ones. You're right though that compared to peak CR7, his skillset is less well-rounded.
Haven't posted in quite some time but the bolded made me chuckle. Cristiano Ronaldo, the player of all history with arguably the greatest wide-range ability in terms of goalscoring quality, that scores every type of goal, with his head or with his foot, from everywhere and anywhere on the field... quite arguably the greatest header of the ball of all time... Van Basten can do more than him? I'd say the only possible negative of the whole Cristiano Ronaldo vs. Messi period is how they've set such an extraordinary standard, beyond extraordinary, for an absolutely unprecedented period in the sport's history... and how so many have forgotten what normal is when they're not around. Cristiano Ronaldo is the best European player of all time and Van Basten isn't close to competing. He is afforded that title because he combined that unprecented mentality you spoke of with WORLD-CLASS talent. In a way nobody with that combination had done in this sport or ever will. You do not get to his level with anything less in talent. He was a much-vaunted prodigy for his entire life and always steps above the rest.
Great video. And he was a tremendous dribbler back then, definitely not the best dribbler in the world though. Both CR7 and MVB at 28, I give it to MvB, just. Overall, of course Cristiano.
This thought-process doesn't make the most sense to me TBH. How can you say in one case MVB>CR7 and then 'Overall, Of course Cristiano' as if you are discussing completely different people in each case? Do you think that Ronaldo turned into a completely other person at a certain of his career? Or is the more likely case that he benefited from external factors (like improved teammates, etc.) turning positively his way that he previously was not privy to?
Coincidentally, I do think Cristiano did turn into almost another person lol but that's not the reason why I have MvB ahead up to that point. I think they are around the same ballpark in terms of talent and individual ability, so I have to consider other factors. At this stage MvB's body of work is more impressive - 2 time CL winner, 3 time Ballon D'or winner, Euro 88, more big games influenced (Bucarest, England 88, Real Madrid 89, Barcelona 90, Bayern 90). That's ignoring matches in the league against Juventus, Inter, Napoli (4 goal haul), Roma, Fiorentina, hattrick vs Feyenoord and his six goal haul against Rotterdam. The latter 2 while at Ajax. By that age MvB has been a key player in more trophies, has bigger matches associated to him and has the more iconic moments. What would your reasons for having CR7 ahead be? The question generally favours MvB as we are looking at his career as a whole, whereas with Cristiano we are having to cut off very important chunks (Euro 16, 2 successful CL defenses, successful in a 3rd top 5 league, scoring records in the CL and so on).
You went to list all his big games but forgot his biggest against the Soviet union (a big game moment CR hasn't matched up until this day) Having said this is van Basten vs England 88 more impressive than Ronaldo vs Holland 2012? If you are going to list van Basten vs Madrid 89 as a big game We could do the same for Ronaldo vs bayern Munich 2012 and 2014 Both teams(Madrid of the 80s and bayern of the 10s) dominated their respective domestic leagues and had deep European cup runs( albeit bayern was more successful) The "Ronaldo stat padded after Sergio ramos goals" argument is also irrelevant in this context. Okay van Basten scored an important away goal for the draw to take to the san siro But in the home leg he scored the 4th goal in a 5-0 thrashing That isn't 'stat padding'? Are you saying CR doesn't have big league matches Van Basten vs napoli 92 is more visually impressive or important as CR vs atletico Madrid 2012? This is where I think we fundamentally disagree IMO prime Cristiano Ronaldo was demonstrably superior in two huge segments of the game Dribbling And play making We can debate all day long about how many goals van Basten would score today for a super team. However As a creator of goalscoring opportunities and vision (particularly long balls and crossing) He just isn't in the same ball park as CR You can also ask puck if you like And this is how worded it at the time Before his 2008 ankle Injury Cristiano was more flashy (technical) as van Basten (any version)
@carlito86 Somehow forgot USSR '88 lol. Very good performance and of course the iconic goal. MvB vs England in 88 is equal to CR7 vs Holland in 2012. In fact that was one of the Cristiano matches I had in mind while mentioning van Basten's performance. As for what Ronaldo did against Bayern in 2014, it's outside of the mentioned time frame. And MvB's performance was really good, technically very clean. The one goal doesn't do it justice. From a technical standpoint, you are right we do disagree there. MvB IMO definitely has the superior shooting technique (to be fair he probably wins this against nearly every player in history), has the better touch/control and also is the superior passer. I had to go back and watch a few clips from that time to confirm if I still feel the same way about the passing. The way I see it, neither of them are De Bruyne but Van Basten's passing is more consistent, his interplay, his crossing from either channel is consistently more accurate. CR7 is capable of flashier passes but there's a lot of misplaced passes in between and passes that are slightly behind the receiver or just a bit too ahead of the receiver etc. Unfortunately there isn't any passing or assist compilation for Van Basten the way there are for any facet of Cristiano's game nowadays but I'm quite confident his passing is superior (and I'm not so surprised that Pes stats see it that way too). If it isn't then I've been duped by the grace and elegance, though I remain convinced he was more accurate and incisive in and around "zone 14" compared to Ronaldo. Cristiano is the superior dribbler 03-13 for sure. Though MvB with his elegant style isn't out of his element as a dribbler.
Please keep in mind those 3min match compilations of van Basten on youtube are made by 'fanboys' Naturally fan boys will only show you the best of their preferred idol and edit any wayward passes, miss controls,terrible shots of which no doubt van Basten had many (across the course of his career) I don't subscribe to those myths of players like Romario and van Basten being unbeatable finishers (even though I once did because the propaganda is pretty strong) If van Basten was such a unbeatable finisher how comes playing for a mighty stacked Milan he was outscored by aldo serena in serie A 88/89? A player with 24 international caps out scoring Cristiano Ronaldo in his greatest years 2008,2011,2012 or 2014 is literally an impossibility It's been covered previously regarding Romario about his scoring fluctuating greatly depending on whether he was bothered or what competition he played in In la liga 93/94 he had almost 1 non pen goal per game In the champions league it dropped to 0.2 or something like that Also please take into consideration we live in the social media era. Any so called spectacular fail is latched onto within a matter of seconds and gone around the world and back before you can even say what did he just do I'll agree with you somewhat Cristiano Ronaldo hasn't been a consistent passer throughout the duration of his career He is on game though a terrific one capable of technically executing all manner of passes In 2011/12 I'll say he was definitely a world class passer In 2012/13 he could still show it but not as consistently I disagree regarding the ball control comparison Ironically pes stats agrees with me
I don't like this kind of argument. Why was C. Ronaldo, playing for Juve, the sole juggernaut of the league, outscored by an even older Fabio Quagliarella playing for a far inferior Sampdoria?
This is ridiculous and also misrepresenting my argument CR hasn't been a elite league scorer for nigh on 3 years and is LONG past his physical prime 1989 is one of if not the greatest year of van bastens career and he was during his prime outscored in serie A by a player with 24 ,international caps These are facts This could never happen to a Messi, Cristiano, puskas or even Eusebio in their respective primes But did (also) happen to R9 in 97/98 outscored in every single competition he participated in. by bierhoff in serie A by suker in the world cup By Guivarc'h in the uefa Cup This is arguably even worse because at least Marco scored 10 European cup goals which was alot (for that time) A GOAT level finisher/scorer should demonstrate a certain level of superiority over his peers in a world without Messi Cristiano Ronaldo would be a 5 time pichici and 8× time champions league top scorer Just think about that Cristiano Ronaldo 2012 failed to win the European golden shoe with 46 league goals because Messi scored 50 Messi in la liga 2011/12 did not just outscore him but also every single player in the history of football Prime Milan van Basten was competing in the scoring charts against vialli,aldo serena,matthaues (a midfielder),signori,Aguilera and lost A true GOAT level scorer at the top of his game demonstrates a certain level of superiority over his peers that van Basten simply never did at least not for long enough
I like CR7 and I’m a fan of his work ethic who at his prime was more complete, but I disagree with him being the best European football of all time. That is undoubtedly Johan Cruyff.
Which is the myth? That neither is a KDB level passer or that Van Basten's passing is more consistent?