Crash Course Thread...

Discussion in 'Coach' started by Coach Stew, Nov 19, 2016.

  1. Coach Stew

    Coach Stew Member

    Nov 16, 2015
    Which post are you referencing?
     
  2. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    I don't think of it that way, but yes. You are correct. On defense they will form a line of 4-across to screen in front of the back four (LM/LCM/RCM/RM). Ideally the line of confrontation will be the midfield line and the line will form around whoever is the first defender pressuring the ball. Ideally the backs form their line to cover behind the midfielders so you have 2 lines of 4 behind the ball.

    After a turnover the transition to the preferred defensive shape is just as important to team success as is the transition to the preferred attacking shape after winning the ball.

    I like to say that the game is all about space--making, using, and taking away space. I don't know if one of the sports you coach is basketball, but my own thinking about team tactics and how to teach it is lifted directly from my high school basketball coach. (I never played organized soccer until I was an adult.)
     
  3. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    You should do shadow play to work on all your players positioning with the ball and without the ba
    Do you differentiate between the difference between the defensive mid and the offensive mid. If not the defensive mid at least should be able to get back to help your defenders when they lose the ball. You said the problem was with your inside mids. Defensive mid supports the offensive mid from behind the offensive mid right?
     
  4. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It was in another thread. I think it was rca's.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  5. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    #30 rca2, Nov 20, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
    @Coach Stew @jmnva @Catracho_Azul @Peter Rival

    Just wanted to point out that you are all actively coaching the same age group. jmnva is currently coaching a high school aged rec team and has loads of experience coaching all ages of youth. The other three of you are high school coaches.

    There are a few professional coaches that could help (like GKbenji and Dakota Soccer), but haven't been posting lately in this forum. There are also two strength and conditioning coaches that know soccer who occasionally post on the Player forum.
     
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  6. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    I think elessar78 was referring to a discussion on page 11 of the "Fall 2016 coaching thread."
     
  7. Coach Stew

    Coach Stew Member

    Nov 16, 2015
    What is the standard progression in training defense?
     
  8. jmnva

    jmnva Member

    Feb 10, 2007
    Arlington, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Been on soccer fields all weekend, so I will just dump all my thoughts here.

    Formation, I tend to play a 4-3-3. I've found it the easiest to teach roles. With my younger team it is more like a 3-1-3-3 with a stopper playing more like a defensive mid. But this is dependent on personnel. It takes a bunch of speed and huge soccer brain to play stopper well, She needs to have a strong understanding of when to challenge aggressively.

    Training defense-- I start with 1 v 1 drills to work on the fundementals. I progress to 2v2s to teach pressure/cover concepts and then go to a small sided game where I'll talk pressure/cover/balance.


    dealing with skill differential-- It becomes all about where can you hide the kid. The fast kid with little skill- put up top and just have her run at defense. Also, I'm a fan of back-up. If i put a weaker kid as left back, I make sure I have a strong left half in front of her that can run back and help as needed.

    Be glad to answer any other questions
     
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  9. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    I would do the same thing as jmnva: start with individuals, then pairs, then a single line, then I put the lines together in the full 11. If the players already know the tactics and techniques, then steps will go fast. A review is good.

    In teaching the individual and pairs, I will just use a demonstration. If there is difficulty performing the task, I reduce the pressure as necessary for success. Then gradually increase the pressure to keep the exercise challenging.

    In teaching single lines and the full side, I use shadow play (performing with no pressure rather than just a demonstration) and half pressure before running the exercise at full pressure.

    I use the shadow play to make sure the players integrate the prior steps into the larger context. With shadow play you can start out walking through the process and you can easily freeze them and make coaching points as they run through it. You can also move the ball around side to side and up and down the field and have them adjust their shape accordingly. That way you can run through a lot of ideas fairly quickly. Then you take them through it again to see if the coaching points were understood before putting them under half pressure.
     
  10. Coach Stew

    Coach Stew Member

    Nov 16, 2015
    Concerning the ball being played out wide, from a defensive perspective, what is your philosophy as to which way the pressing defender steers the play? I have read philosophies that suggest both keeping the play wide and funneling back inside. To this point we adhere to keeping the play wide. While I understand the middle can provide some safety by congestion it is still none the less closer to the danger zone. IMO, from the edge attackers only have one play to goal which is the cross. Being wide also alleviates some stress of being out matched individually in front of goal. Does this perspective also change based on where the ball is on the field? What am I missing?
     
  11. Nbetx89

    Nbetx89 New Member

    Nov 9, 2011
    Club:
    --other--
    I always teach my players to steer the play wide. Pure logic, if their attacker is wide, he is further away from our goal, he has to get a space for the cross, get a good cross, their attackers have to make a good run, also our defenders have to make mistakes in marking, and their attackers have to make really good shot on target. All these conditions must be fulfilled in order for them to score. If you steer attacker towards the middle, he has a lot more options with the ball......shot, through ball, dribbling,keeping posession.....and you have to worry about both sides, you don't know which way the ball will go, as oppose to when they are on the flank, then you know where they will try to put the ball if they want to score.
     
  12. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    #37 rca2, Nov 21, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
    Such a deceptively simple question! I can only provide my personal view because there appears to be a wide variety of approaches. Initially the coach's instructions will be built into the system of play taught the team as part of the defensive organization. During the season this aspect of the system may be modified by the game plan.

    One qualifier I am not going to discuss what I did and saw with U10 girls. I don't think it is relevant to high school.

    Generally which way you push reflects how you want to win the ball, what space you want to deny to your opponent, what space you will allow your opponent, the width of the field, what third of the field the ball is in, the weakness and strengths of the individuals involved.

    On a relatively narrow field which you commonly see I want the wide defenders to push outside so they can use the touch line as a 12th man to trap the attacker. This is true for the entire area behind the initial line of confrontation which usually starts about 10 yards into the attacking half.

    In the middle third it is generally easy to push outside as the opponent's usually want to penetrate along the touch line to gain width. On the left side of the defense it is usually easier than the right side because the left side opponents' dominant foot is usually the right foot. If you give him the outside, they will usually want it. On the right side of the defense it is usually harder because the players dominant foot is often the right foot which is on the inside. In the final third the attacker will want to turn inside. So keeping the player outside is harder. Especially for fast wingers I don't mind letting them get closer to the penalty area to stay with them but I don't want them getting around the marker and turning to goal.

    Now for the exception. I have played over 800 matches with many, many different players from all over the world. My last competitive match, however, was long ago in 1986. One time I got a hint of something different. I was playing left fullback and the covering CB behind me was a former All American college player from the 1990s. I had just stopped the winger's forward progress and the CB had let me know I had "cover." Just as I started to charge the winger to force him left/outside, the CB said "push right." It was totally unexpected on my part and he was assuming I was waiting for his direction. I wasn't. I was waiting for the winger to start to lift his head up.

    I wanted to ask the CB about which coach and what exactly the coach had taught him. I was never able to get the chance. (He was badly injured in a game shortly after that by a vicious, violent tackle from behind, but that is another story.) My belief is that his college coach used a system and trained his players that the decision as to whether to push outside or inside was an "audible" call of the covering player on a case by case basis. Unfortunately the CB did not try to give me instructions after that first time, now that I was listening for it.

    What I have seen otherwise is teaching the communication "cover" (or "support") to signal the first defender that he has cover and can now attempt to tackle. Apparently this college coach taught "push right" or "push left" as either a replacement for "cover" or as an additional communication. I never saw or heard this again by anyone at any level.

    There was only one time as a player our system required me as right FB to push players inside even 20-25 yards from our goal line. Our best players were the 2 CBs who were excellent tacklers, but had bad knees and could not move laterally well. So we pushed the opponents inside to be tackled. The opponent's always went inside. I only remember 1 match like that. Today tackling is a bit of a lost art.
     
  13. Coach Stew

    Coach Stew Member

    Nov 16, 2015
  14. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    Here is my interpretation of the coaches intention. The coach is confident of his players' tackling and ball winning skills. (This is Italy of course.)

    The coach is using a flat four and wants very much for the 4 backs to keep a compact shape. That means he wants to deny attackers a run down the wing. He also wants to win the ball by the first defender turning the attacker into the covering player. The covering player is the CB. If the fullback pushes outside the CB cover will also be pulled far out of position leaving only 2 players in front of the goal. With the talent that he is preparing the players to face, he doesn't want to have a numbers down situation in the center. So he has the fullback push inside so that the FB and CB can win the ball while still maintaining the defensive shape in the center.

    Because the back line is maintaining its defensive shape the rest of the team can maintain their defensive shape. If the FB was going to push outside and the CB shift to provide cover, then there would need to be some kind of adjustment. The most common I see is for everyone to shift to the strong side, except that some player will still have to stay on the back side of the keeper to guard against a far post run.

    Your specific question was about the distance between lines. That distance is based on the abilities of the players to cover ground. The players abilities don't change so I don't see why the coach would adjust the distance between lines unless the other team was demonstrating that they could successfully play in the spaces between the lines first.

    What I commonly see is the nearest players collapsing on the ball, but that would only be one player in the midfield line moving closer to the ball like the first defender did in diagram 2 of the linked practice plan. Not the whole line. Again like in diagram 2.

    By the way, very nice link.
     
  15. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC

    When you push the play inside the field your taking a chance? Why because your defending goal is inside the field. What your doing is pushing the player inside the field into your central mids. The danger is pushing the player with the ball behind your central mids. Then my friends you have trouble.

    I favor always keep the ball outside and not push that player towards the inside.

    Look at it from the attacking side of it. When the player with the ball inside the field. Your opening up the flanks. If the flank player is dangerous on attack your pushing him to your attacking goal. If he is a great passer now both sides of the field can benefit from his passing not just one side. Tab Ramos was and loves the flank. He used to get injured playing the flank by the second defender. But after he beat the first defender if he moved inside the field he was even more dangersous for those next two seconds then he was on the flank, and he was not injured as much. Someone was brought into the metrostars to teach him how to play the flank that way. His teacher was a very close friend of mine he even looked like me.
     
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  16. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Philosophy is one thing. Application another. It depends on your personnel and what you experience and see on the pitch. If you have a GK that deals well with crosses and your CBs are good then crossing may be your best bet. If not, forcing them inside may be better.
     
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  17. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    And it depends on your opponent too. Rarely in any amateur game I played was there an opponent who was truly dangerous crossing. Typically amateur coaches put the best passers in the center spine positions, picked wingers for their speed, and didn't give players freedom to interchange. Except at the highest level few amateur teams can field high quality players at every position.
     
  18. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    Community travel u13-u14, with 3 CB and 2 DM sitting in front, I'd ask the wide mid to channel left side (to us) players inside.
    At our level, lots of kids aren't two footed. The kid that can blaze down his attacking right side and hit a cross/cutback or even round the defender and approach the box from the side - danger.
    The same kid getting pushed inside where he's dribbling with the foot closest to my defender, and he has to stop and square up to shoot with the only foot he can shoot with - easy. My players knew to watch both wide players, in the event there was a lefty we played him the same. Otherwise, we let the right footed kid on our right side have
    as much space down the wing as he wanted, knowing he'd have to stop/square up for the cross/cutback/1v1.
     
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  19. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    As far as I could tell, I was the only coach with 2 left footed players :) - who hated me for asking them to play on the right and cut in, until I showed them the Robben highlight reels. Note their MS coaches were fine with down the line and cross, so they got the full soccer experience....
     
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  20. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    I remember reading an article or paper at nscaa.com about how to organize a delayed high pressure zone (aka low pressure zone) in a 442 shape for U14s and up. It was written in the late 90's or early 00's I think. The defense was the typical 2 lines of 4 behind. Typically teams are trained to penetrate near the touch lines in the middle third. This plan allows penetration along the touch to increase the distance between the first attacker and his support, then the outside mid and a forward trap the first attacker against the touch line. The rest of the players including the other forward shift to the strong strong side to cover the passing lanes. The object is to win the ball by forcing a bad pass.

    Another article called for midfield line when near the half line to push the ball inside and then with the forwards collapse around the ball to isolate the attacker and win the ball. The back line always pushed outside. I assume that in the final third the midfield line also pushed outside.

    When pressing high in your opponent's half there is obvious advantages to forcing your opponent to play inside in front of his goal. A pass inside may break pressure, but then again a ball won by a forward or midfielder in the attacking third often leads to a high percentage shot on goal.

    Obviously with more advanced teams and limited substitution rules your game plan is going to consider who the opposing players are and generally which opponent you don't want to have the ball. For instance you would probably have a game plan that, instead of denying the inside to the opponent, denied the ball to their Messi or the opponents primary play maker.

    It is a complicated question.
     
  21. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    If I hadn't been 2-footed I would not have been a starter when I played adult competitive soccer. I was a RM but not good enough to break into the starting lineup on the right side. I always started, however, because I was also the best left-side player on the team.

    I like to say that being two-footed always gets you one free shot every match. Defenders always overplay the right foot until the first time you beat them with your left foot.
     
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  22. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Unless you pay them to play. In that regard college play should be better then they are your paying them to play with an education.
     
  23. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    My kingdom for a left footed player.

    At a try out that is one of the things you notice in a player.
     
  24. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC

    Ah Robbin that was some player.
     
  25. Coach Stew

    Coach Stew Member

    Nov 16, 2015


    How do you interpret this video of bad fullback play?

    Man vs. Zone - some of the comments suggest that a different style of defense should, or could have been played in several of the goals. When does your team switch to man marking, if at all? When you do man mark, is it a man in your zone, or go where they go? Is it viable to use this video in training the entire defense rather than just fullback play or would it just stand to cause confusion?

    Great information so far! Thanks to all that are contributing.
     

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