CR7 vs Ronaldinho (prime only)

You criteria for technical ability discriminates against forwards and traditional number 9s who’s primary function isn’t necessarily to create

For his position r9 was the most technically accomplished a player could ever hope to be
Ronaldinho for his position as a second striker was barely average at scoring
(Remove his penalties then do a comparison between him and rivaldo at Barcelona and the NT)
And his passing could not compare to other AMF/SS like Maradona and zico.he only matched them in extravagant passes not visionary ones
You will point to his pass to guily against Milan.neymar made an identical pass against England in 2017 and he continues to match Ronaldinho in visionary long balls and through passes

Bottom line
R9 at his best was as good as a striker could hope to be
Ronaldinho at his best could not could not compete against the greatest in his position
Maradona,Zico and Messi

(Genius assist at the beginning)

Ronaldinho could only do this in Nike commercials
@Vegan10 can you find a comparable performance by Cruyff in any season where he is creating goal scoring opportunities at will


A technique based comparison between r9 and Ronaldinho based on passing styles is disingenuous at best.

 

Dude what are you rambling on about and why do you enjoy misquoting me so much?

Firstly Cristiano could do everything dinho could do in terms of ball skills and he also evidently has a better shooting technique (in terms of goal variety) while dinho has a better passing technique
Even if I admitted Cristiano did not seem as fluid as dinho he could still do what he did and to the same effect (if not greater-as a direct dribbling threat prime c.Ronaldo isn’t surpassed by many)
The only point I was making was regarding dinhos aesthetical superiority

Iniesta could not do what zidane did in terms of ball skills (CLEARLY)
His shooting technique was evidently inferior
his passing was inferior
And in addition to all the above he was from a aesthetical perspective no where near zizou

Show me a source that ranked iniesta as one of the best passers in history (a neutral source-not one written by a pro Barça or tika taka fanboy)
Iniestas assist count in this generation is below par except in one season (I believe in 11/12 he made 20+ assists)
But so did Ozil,de bruynne,xavi,Messi(and in fact many more times)

The weight of the pass and the movement before to make the space for it is just ridiculous


De bruyne vs Stoke 2017/18 a masterful playmaking performance and his assist towards the end is one of the best visionary through balls I have ever seen (on par with the best of laudrup)

I have never seen iniesta make visionary passes of the same calibre
In his prime. he would also perform a great dribble vs multiple players every blue moon.
And his la croqueta move that he took of Micheal laudrup was used hardly or rarely in his career(way less than I saw zidane effectively use his trademark roulette move)
Overall I don’t see how iniesta could be lauded as a great contemporary technician
When he was an ineffective finisher (relative to his position)
Not as good a passer as many midfielders from the past 10 years
Average in terms of ball skills

In his favour he has a great first touch and great ball control but gosh is he so slow that he never or hardly looked like a dangerous game changer

 

Neymar was a ballon dor candidate in 2015(made the podium in what you believe to be messi’s best ever season)
And Neymar was at this stage a significantly superior footballer(and has continued to make greater strides at PSG)

Xavi was a very effective midfielder his prime,technically average but efficient as f*ck
In 08/09 he made 30 assists and was MOTM in the champions league final
He is one of the only players to come close to the Messi/Ronaldo standard during their primes
(In fact some analysts ranked xavi above Cristiano for the 2008/09 season which is debatable but not outrageous in the slightest)

Iniesta was fraudulently put forward as a ballon dor candidate in 2012.
Him winning the uefa best player award ahead of Ronaldo and Messi in 2011/12 was a bigger farce than modric winning any of his awards this year
Matter of fact he wasn’t even at Pirlos level this season (11/12)in terms of club form

 

This season 2009/10 is a top 3 debut season of the last 25 years
Same rank as R9 1996/97 in my opinion
In this season he scored 6 direct freekicks
7 solo goals
Scored at the same rate as R9
Was voted MOTM in 17 of the 35 matches he played:50%
R9 did not have to compete with a player who was equally if not slightly more impressive which is why he could take all the plaudits for himself

C.Ronaldo went on the same rampaging runs from his own half

A 50m dribbling run through an entire team

Scored goals from his own half
For example vs Villarreal (away)

Scored Maradonaesque solo goals (vs almeria) with great close control


R9 played 14 more matches (that would obviously go in his favour)but as we no c.Ronaldo faced disciplinary and injury issues that left him of the pitch for two months in total

Note:
I don’t know if you’ve seen this youtuber henrik lehmann but he has some fantastic compilations on individual seasons by Lionel Messi
The 2009/10 one I found throughly enjoyable


I remember At the time some Maradona/Pelé fanboys insisted Messi wasn’t at the level of the greats LOL
Messi was 22 years old this season yet comparable to the greatest in football history
I think with the benefit of hindsight now even his detractors at the time would admit this

 

Assist totals are misleading for Ronaldo particularly in 2011/12
He was putting dozens of high quality passes on a plate for Karim benzema who was a average finisher (at best)
With a Luís Suárez or Edison cavani in his team I’m confident he would’ve added a minimum of 10 assists

CR7’s involvement in build up(assists and pre assists) in 2007,2011 and 2012 was on a different level compared to Romário,R9 and Van Basten
Not to mention ronaldos ability to create his own goalscoring opportunities is better than Romário and Mvb and comparable to R9

17:18-24:50
playmaking/wing play and assists from 2011/12...totally different animal to Romário who racked up his assists in in the penalty area(hardly any were visionary) @ko242

He can compare to Gerd Muller,post 2015 CR7,Luís Suarez etc in passing

Note:
Deducting penalties from CR7s overall tally in 2009/10 is a futile exercise.
Most of the penalties he took he earned (by being fouled)and even passed a few onto Kaká to take
Romário 93/94 doesn’t compare to prime CR7
One is reliant on service the other is the service (and the dribbler and scorer)
Even the importance of Stoichkov+Romário combined would be hard pressed to equal CR7

 

@Tropeiro
Below are a few sources that confirm Ronaldo was widely considered the 2nd best player in the world in 2009/10(ahead of xavi,Sneijder etc)

Castrol (ranked 2nd)
“It sums up the quality of the player (Messi)that he finishes the season ahead of Cristiano Ronaldo in the Castrol Rankings because Ronaldo has been exceptional in his first year at Real Madrid.”
https://www.goal.com/en/news/2939/c...-the-worlds-top-performing-player-for-2009-10


http://m.goal.com/s/en/news/3171/go...931858/goalcom-special-la-liga-awards-2009-10


My favourite performance from this season that would highlight his superlative level would be the hat trick performance vs Mallorca and at home vs Osasuna


His performance at home against Villarreal was highlighted by the press as being goat level
Marca declared after the match
“God came dressed as CR9”

AS match report opened as follows
“Yesterday Cristiano wasn’t just Cristiano but the whole of Christianity “

EL Mundo wrote
“the orchestra man, capable of doing everything a player can do in attack”

Sid Lowe (la Liga expert) commented
“last night Ronaldo was omnipresent and all-powerful, the creator supreme, an irresistible force as Madrid hammered Villarreal 6-2 to go back within two points of Barcelona”

El pais simply called him a “colossus”

The above performance is comparable to the best I’ve seen of Johan Cruyff or Lionel Messi as a unstoppable creative force
He scored one goal and created 3 others (and did a whole lot more)

A Villarreal player commented after the match
“When he’s playing like this Ronaldo is completely unstoppable
Truly incredible
His performance can be summed up in just one word," insisted one Tomás Guasch: "¡olé!"
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2010/feb/22/cristiano-ronaldo-real-madrid-villarreal
Btw Villarreal were a team ranked 7th in the league (not exactly cannon fodder)

Conclusion
Comparing a CF like Romario,van basten or r9(even in his prime) to CR7 is ridiculous
Despite the revisionism and nostalgia that his prevalent amongst 90s fan these players were limited in that their job was primarily that of a goalscorer (of course they could assist they had good passing technique relative to their position)
But operating as the main scorer,best dribbler,and chief creator of goalscoring opportunities simultaneously..they were never that

Cristiano in his prime excelled as a LW
Excelled as a wing forward and excelled as a penalty area striker
And in each position was a top 3 player in the world
His prime isn’t better or of a higher quality than Ronaldinho ,it is in a complete different stratosphere
CRonaldo was in his prime more direct,more versatile,more productive while still retaining his flair that had made him reknowned the world over

 

Kaká had a superb game
Nobody claimed otherwise.he won the ballon dor for this match and the 3-0 drubbing of Argentina
In serie a he (and Milan as a whole) had a lacklustre performance.
He arguably wasn’t a top 3 player in his own league
Up until the semis nobody claimed Kaka was the best in the world,in fact many sources including the British and Italian press claimed Ronaldo was
After the semifinals Kaká was judged to have won the duel (as if it were a tennis match LOL)
And he promptly went on to win the ballon dor

In terms of league performance nobody challenged CR7
This is confirmed by individual awards,ESM rankings and of course statistics
(In the words of Kaká,Ronaldo was judged to have singlehandedly led Manchester United to the 06/07 league title)

 

@Tropeiro
Against good league teams (top 10 periodic teams)Romario/MVB/R9/Suárez/Henry excelled only as goalscorers and were usually reliant on service to have impactful games

During his prime CR7 could perform the role of chief creator/playmaker and goalscorer against good teams

In the game I posted Against Villarreal (finished 7th place)he scored 1 goal and created 4 others
(2 assists+1 pre assist and earned one penalty through dribbling that was scored by xabi Alonso)
The game finished 6-2 and he was involved in 5 goals(4 of them as a creator)

Against Bolton(finished 7th place) in 2006/07 he made 3 assists in a single half .the game that finished 4-1
https://en.m.wikinews.org/wiki/Football:_Manchester_United_breeze_past_lackluster_Bolton

Against Aston Villa in 2007/08 (finished 6th place) he scored 1 goal+3 assists in a 4-1 victory

Against Roma in 2006/07 he was involved in 6 of the 8 goals scored by his team(scored 2+1 assist+3 pre assists)

If I remember correctly those strikers who I previously mentioned had their best games as goalscorers only

Suárez could do this but against lowly teams
4 goals +3 assists in 1 game vs Deportivo (15th place) 2015/16
Like Ronaldo vs Espanyol (13th place)2015/16
5 goals+1 assist in one game
against good teams Suárez in his prime was usually reliant on quality service


It is true Ronaldo became more goal oriented as far back as 2011(less dribbles,less chances created with every season gone by.
At least in 2011 and 2012 he still maintained a World class level of wing play
Post 2013 he is a goalscorer (with great athletic and technical qualities)but rarely involved in the build up leading to an attack
It is only then that a comparison between him and Romario,Henry,R9 etc is acceptable after all they are effectively playing the same role

2007-2012 Ronaldo is a total different beast.his involvement in build up play is comparable to Ferenc Puskas who was a inside forward for Honvéd and Hungary (which I believe was the precursor to the wing forward/playmaking forward role)
Players who operate this role to a high standard are inherently better than strikers or centre forwards who are reliant on service

Hence the reason Puskas is historically ranked above Eusébio
Prime Cristiano above R9,van basten,Romario
(It’s their ability to create for others while still maintaining a elite goal return that separates them)

Prime Ronaldinho’s ability to create for his team mates was elite of course but he lacked In finishing ability and longevity to be compared to the best

 

Messi has been a very good and consistent performer in Copa America tournaments
He is the best since R9 in these comps (and Maradona does not compare)

At World Cup level Maradona excelled only in one tournament (1986)
1982,1990, and 94 are at the same level as Messi 2014 IMO
Are we to say that because Maradona performed superbly over the course of 7 matches that he is in a different universe to Messi

Excelling at International competitions are no longer the barometer of greatness
What Messi has achieved within the confines of Barcelona is in a total different league to what Maradona did with Napoli
Propelling a relegation threatened team to a league title is unique but not better than being the best player in 3 champions league winning campaigns (and 9 league titles)

Defenders like gentile and Goikoetxea were effectively hatchmen(their aggressiveness and propensity to commit reckless challenges did not make them special defenders)
The game has progressed and in turn so has the level of athleticism.
(So has the level of professionalism,technological advances,nutrition etc)

You cannot blame Messi from receiving protection from dangerous fouls
The game is now being played as it should be (without the thuggery and brute fouls from a bygone era)
Messi is not a leader (I concur)
But you cannot witness his exploits and technical ability and say he isn’t one of the greats

@Vegan10
Your argument seems to be that Messi doesn’t have the mentality of a champion to qualify as a great of the sport
I don’t know if this is true but you have to admit(even begrudgingly) within the confines of his club setup his achievements are vastly superior to Maradona
So much so that I don’t even think a case could be made that had Maradona had the same advantages as Messi he would’ve equalled his extraordinary feats
(Even if he had the talent he lacked the professionalism of Messi and even adjusting eras,leagues,team edge etc Maradona was never as important for his club teams as Messi
Maradona could never outscore platini or zico what makes you think he was remotely comparable as a finisher to Messi

I think your criticism of Messi is too emotionally driven
If Maradona was as you think of him a born champion,a leader etc
Why did he resort to drug taking,mixing with members of organised crime,womanising etc
Doesn’t a leader lead by example
Maradona had passion no doubt and he could project this onto his teammates in a useful way (particularly in 86 and 90)
But he let down his country big time in 94(they were one of the favourites going into the tournament but totally demoralised after Maradonas drugs ban)

With Maradona too much hinges on a few great achievements that have been over glorified with the passage of time
A goat performance in 1 World Cup and (arguably) being the most important star in 2 league titles for me isn’t enough to warrant a seat with Pelé

With many fans of Maradona (including myself) an emotional case is usually made
Ie
Did you see the defenders he faced
The pitches..the boots
So why under these same conditions did players like Eusébio,Puskás,Di Stefano,Pelé have vastly superior club careers(and more consistent)

Also Maradona In Napoli was never dominant compared Pelé,Messi or Cruyff in his prime
Hypothetically speaking if Maradona was eligible he would lose the ballon dor to platini In 84
Van Basten in 88
And arguably Gullit in 87
So that leaves him with 85,86 and 89

Pele between 60-65 is too dominant
Eusébio,Di Stefano,Sívori,Rivera,charlton etc are second best
Maradona lacked the professionalism and consistentcy even in his prime to challenge Pelé

Cruyff was dominant (maybe in a less competitive era,his main challenger was a defensive player while Müller is too limited as a player
George best had begun to tail off by 72 but I believe a rivalry between those two in their prime would’ve been one for the ages)

Messi in his prime was dominant with only one true competitor but largely he has been the best over the last 10 or so years
Maradona’s career as a world beater is finished at 29 years old
Messi was a bpitw candidate at 21 years old and remains one at 31 years old

I refuse to believe one international tournament (a 7 game tournament) can bridge the gap between their club careers
I am certain without a single game for Argentina Messi has done enough to be ranked a top 10 all timer
Maradona without 1986 would be an extremely polarising figure (I can imagine him being a cult hero for Boca and Napoli fans possibly making top 20 all time)

 

@Tropeiro sometimes I don’t get you the above looks like stats manipulation/voodoo

I have already told you Ronaldo in 09/10 isn’t just operating as the scorer of his team
He is heavily involved in build up play (creating many pre assists)
He is a vastly superior dribbling threat that created many penalties for his team

He is such a threat from set pieces that in addition to the six direct ones he scored he made two more assists from FK rebounds
Ronaldos involvement in real Madrid’s attack can’t simply be quantified by goals and assists
He isn’t a CF(centre forward)
He is a CF(creative forward) lol

The performance vs Villarreal demonstrates the omnipresent efffect Ronaldo had on his teams attack
He is all over the final third,the opposition half is his domain while the penalty area belonged to Romario

Ronaldos involvement in build up play in 2011/12 is easily verifiable
I posted video footage (8 mins long of his assists and visionary crosses,long balls and through balls from 2011/12)

Romário In 93/94 scored
32 goals in 47 appearances

Ronaldo in 09/10 scored
33 goals in 35 appearances

Added to this Ronaldo was a demonstrably superior dribbler and creator of chances
Removing pk goals is bogus it isn’t like Ronaldo had an astronomical amount (4pk)
He earned 3 of those and earned a few more that he gave to his teammates to score (Kaká against Marseille and alonso and Villarreal )




And against Marseille in the champions league i distinctly remember him dribbling into the box past two players and being brought down by the third
He gave the pen to Kaká to score (it was this foul that caused the injury that saw him out for 6 weeks)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/f....html?WT.mc_id=605456&source=MiddleColumnPuff
I hope this further substantiates my point that as the main dribbling threat of his team a lot of his runs lead to fouls and penalties that aren’t recorded by assist stats
Also Ronaldo averaged 2.6 key passes in 09/10 which is a tad more than hazard managed in 14/15,16/17 and 17/18

Bottom line you cannot compare the influence of a complete forward to a striker which was what Romario was in 93/94