Do you have a thread for Moreno similar to the Di Stefano one so we can see how he was viewed in relation to his peers Is Moreno in your opinion also superior to pre war legends like meazza and sindelar? This is a question addressed to you and @PuckVanHeel How reliable is dearmans list and criteria for ranking football legends I don’t understand how zidanes club career has been ranked as on par with Eusébio and his passing ability on par with Ronaldinho gaucho I don’t know maybe I’m missing something but the zidane he has ranked 10th all time could be a different player that we are totally unaware of. and Ronaldinho is ranked 28th in football history despite only being a bpitw candidate in two calendar years with no top 10 finishes prior to 2004 and none after 2007(in addition to his sub par international career) I have raised these issues with him but to no avail And Di Stefano’s dribbling ability has been judged to be superior to Cristiano Ronaldo (this is totally ridiculous imo)
No he is still beneath fernando peyroteo His goal average in his career remains the greatest in football history (1.70 per match) Joseph bican claimed he had probably scored close to 5000 goals in his career (including friendlies)but this cant be verified https://www.radio.cz/en/section/czechs/josef-pepi-bican When asked by reporters why he hadn't drawn more attention to his achievements, Bican replied "who'd have believed me if I said I'd scored five times as many goals as Pele?!"
I may be a fan of Ronaldo but I am not so shamelessly biased towards players from my own continent You are a known messi nuthugger who cannot see past players that aren’t associated with Barcelona or Brazil Your contributions to this thread are welcome if you have any
Just read through this thread and I'm in serious disagreement with some stuff. @carlito86 In football, a single player is rarely ever the difference between losing a tie and winning by a huge margin. The 8-3 aggregate beating of Roma and CR being involved in 6 goals by your count (only actually scored 2...) doesn't mean he gave them the win. If they won by a single goal, I'd get your argument but it was a rout. Plus Roma wasn't some really good team. They finished second in the group stage to Valencia. And then saying that CR was as good as Kaka up until the semifinals is another weird argument. As if the semifinals weren't the biggest matches yet played that year and as if being as good as Kaka has merit in this discussion. As good as Kaka was, he was no Ronaldinho. Ronaldinho had huge potential and he didn't maintain his super high level for long and that caused fans frustration and he ultimately gets underrated by some. I feel like Ronaldinho at his absolute peak was a bigger force on the pitch than CR simply because of his dribbling and playmaking. But I will concede that their roles are entirely different so a direct comparison is difficult. I prefer the R9 vs. CR comparison.
I'm curious why do You talk a bullshit like that ? Maradona told something similar recently, but he has drugs instead of brain. But You Vegan, one of best posters here, I don't belive...
I beg to differ. A single player can be the difference between winning comfortably or just scraping through Manchester United were losing against Roma and Ronaldo singlehandedly brought his team back into the tie Why is it relevant that Ronaldo only scored twice? In 06/07 he wasn’t a player defined by goals in fact he had nearly as many assists as goals scored 23 goals +22 assists in 51 matches Ronaldo was a orthodox winger this season playing as a LM in a 4-4-2 formation SAF only started playing 4-3-3 in some champions league games a season later in 07/08 Ronaldo singlehandedly led one of the biggest routs in champions league history against a team that had the best defensive record in the CL up until the quarter final If this isn’t a big game performance than Ronaldinho has never had a big game performance in his career (When has Ronaldinho ever been the protagonist behind such an overwhelming score line against a very good team in the champions league) You can attempt to downplay Roma all you want but this was a team that finished 2nd place in Serie A ahead of ac Milan and boasted one of the best defensive records in Europe A comparison between United Ronaldo and r9 doesn’t do the former any justice R9 was a striker CR7 was an elite winger in 06/07 turned into a dynamic/hybrid forward in 07/08 Cristiano played deeper,was involved more in build up play and scored at a similar rate It would be like comparing shevchenco to Neymar (completely different roles and of course the latter was evidently more influential and talented)
@Danko Ronaldinho has never been underrated by anybody.that is ridiculous In case you hadn’t noticed Ronaldinho according to many here had the potential of emulating Diego Maradona LOL This is despite being an inferior passer,dribbler and goalscorer Ronaldinho hadn’t even reached Maradonas pre Napoli levels of play making When Maradona lost his speed he became a passing god (around 88/89 I believe) Ronaldinho couldn’t even reach the levels of play making Maradona produced in 2 (interrupted) seasons for Barcelona Ronaldinhos close control was arguably not even at the level of r9 let alone dejan saviecivic,George best,stojkovic let alone Maradona or Lionel Messi (or even Garrincha for that matter) Ronaldinho isn’t underrated or under appreciated in fact quite the opposite by Indian YouTube fans and specifically Brazilian posters who think they are the “holy ones “ when it comes to football Pelé’s legacy for many of them is untouchable like Jesus Christ and r9 and dinho treated like saintly figures beyond reproach
A big scoreline like 8-3 is virtually never a function of one player dominating though. Man United completely decimated Roma and sure without CR they probably would not have won 8-3 but they still probably would have won comfortably. As for the R9 comparison, I never said to compare him to United CR just to CR in general. And you don't have to work hard to convince me about your boy's time at United. United CR was a better player than he is right now and to me it isn't particularly close. His peak came around 2012 though but he was unlucky to be overshadowed by an even greater player.
I'm noticing that Carlitos likes to talk about Brazilian Players especially from 90's until now and comparing with Cristiano Ronaldo etc and here I make a summary about these players in Brazil to put extra datas to this discussion: Romario 19-22 Years Old (1985-1988) Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler 141 Matches, 80 Goals for Vasco Campeonato Carioca's top scorer: 1986, 1987 6 Matches, 4 Goals for the NT International Participation U-20 South American Championship Champion and Top Scorer (1985) Olympic Silver Medal and Top Scorer (1988) ==> Sucess from day 1 in Holland (PSV) Rivaldo 19-23 Years Old (1991-1996) Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler 179 Matches, 94 Goals for Santa Cruz, Mogi Mirim, Corinthians and Palmeiras 2 Bola's de Prata 1993-1994 (21-22 Years Old) Brazilian Serie A champion in 1994 and 2 Paulistas for Palmeiras 9 Matches, 3 Goals for the NT ==> Sucess from day 1 in Spain (La Coruña) Ronaldo 17 Years Old. (1993-1994) Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler 47 Matches, 44 Goals for Cruzeiro Brazilian NT U-17: 57 Matches, 59 Goals Distinción Año Máximo Goleador Sudamericano Sub-17 1993 Máximo Goleador Histórico Selección Brasileña Sub-17 1993-presente Máximo Goleador Supercopa Sudamericana 1993 Goleador Más Joven de la Historia de la Supercopa Sudamericana 1993-presente Máximo Goleador Campeonato Mineiro 1994 Goleador Más Joven de la Historia del Campeonato Mineiro 1994-presente Sucess from day 1 in Holland (PSV)
Ronaldinho 18-20 Years Old (1998-2000) Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler 142 Matches, 72 Goals for Gremio 1999 Copa America FIFA Confederations Cup Golden Ball and and Golden Shoe South America Team of the Year 1999 1 Bola de Prata (2000). For the NT 18 Matches, 8 Goals Sucess from day 1 in France? (PSG) Kaka 19-20 Years Old (2001-2003) Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler 125 Matches, 47 Goals for São Paulo South American Team of the Year 2002 For NT 5 Matches, 1 Goal 1 Bola de Ouro (2002) Sucess from day 1 in Italy (Milan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serie_A_Footballer_of_the_Year
Neymar 17-21 Years Old (2009-2013) Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler 223 Matches, 136 Goals for Santos 46 Matches, 27 Goals for NT (including all 2013) Campeonato Brasileiro Série A Team of the Year: 2010, 2011, 2012 Chuteira de Ouro: 2010, 2011, 2012 Bola de Prata: 2010, 2011 Bola de Ouro: 2011 (not elegible for 2012) Campeonato Brasileiro Série A Best Player: 2011[289] World Soccer Young Player of the Year: 2011 Copa Libertadores Most Valuable Player: 2011 FIFA Club World Cup Bronze Ball: 2011 South American Footballer of the Year: 2011, 2012 FIFA Puskás Award: 2011 Bola de Ouro Hors Concours: 2012 FIFA Confederations Cup Golden Ball: 2013 FIFA Confederations Cup Bronze Shoe: 2013 FIFA Confederations Cup Dream Team: 2013 Sucess from day 1 in Spain (Barcelona) https://www.whoscored.com/Players/50835/History/Neymar Now one thing that needs to be clear is that this comparison isn't fair also. South American football gets worse year after year... decade then it's a lot of difference.. but even if that here you have the proof that all the Brazilian Golden Boys stand out individually here. It wasn't as if they had come out of nowhere.
What don’t you agree with ? The comparison with Cruijff or the point of lack of strength of character ? The only thread I opened about Moreno was this one: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-greatest-argentinian-player-of-all-time-1993.2086594/ I can’t comment on Meazza and Sindelar. In regards to Dearman, I haven’t read his method of ranking players so I can’t comment. All I can say is that many of his conclusions in some rankings are questionable. He takes things at face value for granted and there’s notable errors in his information.
Ronaldinho gaucho 2005/06 Age:26 years old Stats(individual and team) 26 goals (10 penalties)+24 assists in 46 games Barcelona Scored 120 goals in all competitions (league, Copa Del Rey,champions league,Supercopa España) Season 2006/07 Cristiano Ronaldo Age:22 years old Stats (individual and team) 23 goals(5 penalties)+22 assists in 51 matches Manchester United scored 120 goals in all competitions Involvement without penalties Cristiano was involved in 33% of teams goals Ronaldinho was involved in 33% of teams goals (Ronaldinho probably had a substantial amount of pre assists but I have recorded at least 7 pre assists for c.Ronaldo in 2006/07 and he also earned 3 of the 5 penalties he took) https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/cristiano-ronaldos-dribbling-ability.2034024/page-12 A 22 year old Cristiano Ronaldo was as productive as Ronaldinho in his best season (In addition to being a comparable dribbler and as good a finisher) Ronaldos end product improved drastically in 2007/08 and kept on improving year on year Ronaldinho stagnated at 26 years of age(his level did not improve post 2005/06 he just masked his inconsistency with a barrage of penalties and the occasional spectacular dribbling run for example vs Bilbao) entertainment value is subjective, what isn’t however is end product and a 22 year old Cristiano was already as effective as Ronaldinho and important for his team at a much younger age.this is indisputable. @Danko @ko242 @Tropeiro
I don’t disagree with that. Ronaldo’s 06/07 season was fantastically well balanced and probably the season I enjoyed watching him the most . Ronaldinho was already in decline in 06 / 07 , by his own choice, and that’s no secret. When I mentioned goal scoring wasn’t as much a part of ronaldinhos game it’s because he wasn’t looking for the goal as much as Ronaldo was. Ronaldinho wasn’t taking 10 plus shots a game. Ronaldinho looked for the pass first most of the time . That’s not to say he could do what Ronaldo has done. As for entertaining, yeah it's subjective ... but I think you will find a majority of fans were more entertained by Ronaldinho.
The question of this specific thread is who’s prime was better Cristiano’s prime is spread over half a dozen years so I had to pick a season which was his most balanced in terms of all round play (and you agreed) The question of the thread isn’t who was the most entertaining during their respective peaks Ronaldo played in a similar position to Ronaldinho albeit the latter was a playmaker positioned on the wing while Cristiano’s position in 2006/07 is hard to define He was a orthodox winger and arguably Manchester United’s most important playmaker after Paul scholes His assist tally reflects his involvement in build up play was substantial and Ryan giggs even confirmed Ronaldo was a better player this season than 2007/08(his ballon dor season) Ronaldo also had an attacking edge I have never seen from any player in his position When he had the ball at his feet no matter were he was on the pitch his modus operandi was to run directly through the oppositions defence and to take a shot or create a goalscoring opportunity He was basically r9 of Barcelona but positioned on the wing (without the WC finishing ability of course) His aggression or directness as a dribbler in 2006/07is ranked on pes stats as 97(out of 100) Which is a considerably higher rating than contemporary world class strikers and wingers (and even higher than the 07/08 version of CR7) I have no doubt in my mind that Cristiano equalled the productivity of players like rivaldo 98/99 and Ronaldinho 05/06 ,when he was a Manchester United player while at the same time retaining his technical ability and flair. I agree Ronaldinho looked more fluid/natural when performing a trick but it is totally ridiculous when some people suggest dinho could do stuff with the ball Ronaldo couldn’t I have proven time and time and time and again that Ronaldo had the same arsenal of tricks as the best Brazilian technicians He could perform the roulette like Maradona/zidane,the step over/double stepover like r9(more effectively when he was at Manchester United compared to Real Madrid),the elastico like Ronaldinho (and r9 who did it better than both) CR7 could also perform the same extravagant ball controls as Ronaldinho (juggling,back control even with his head) Generally speaking Cristiano is criminally underrated as a technician especially when you have many here who would rank Iniesta above him..even Isco LMFAO His shooting technique also ranks amongst the best in football history Just look at the variety of his goals From one touch finishes,long range efforts,volleys,acrobatic goals,headers,freekicks,solo goals etc
A lot of things. First, Messi isn't a product of any propaganda. He is one of 3-5 greatest players ever. I understand that you don't like modern football, but come on, football wasn't finished when Maradona retired. Second, between the greatest players ever there is no " he can't clean his schoes". Yes, Cruyff was a better leader ss well as Messi is better dribbler, passer and finisher. It's doesn"t mean that Cruyff can't clean Messi's schoes in this categories. Football isn't only about being a leader or playing great WC. Cruyff and especially Maradona never weren't as dominant as Pele or Messi. Never. Deal it. Third. You are talking about Messi being overrated and many times you overrate Maradona. It's like Diego always played like in 86. It's not true. If Messi outside of Barca is a player like the other, then Maradona without WC 86 is just a average player with just two sccudeto and one uefa cup. Maradona played in 7 NT tournament and was great in just one of them. Why? Why a great leader, a god among man couldn't even lead his team to CA final? Achive more then this ovrrrated product of western media propaganda. You know why? Because his team was to weak, to disfuncional. Just like Messi's NT. One single WC is where Diego is ahead of Leo in NT. The rest like Copa, U-20, stats are in Messi's favour. At club level the gap is huge. Maradona 's club career isn't comparable to Messi's or Cruyff's. And all above doesn't change the fact, that Maradona is one of GOATS. For most of fans Messi overtake Maradona. And Pele is better to. You can have your own opinion, but you shouldn't destroyed Messi in many posts, just because he isn't from old times
ESM team of the month (minimum 7 inclusions in a single season) Attackers only Lionel Messi 2011/12 9 2010/11 8 2012/13 7 2014/15 7 Cristiano Ronaldo 2011/12 8 2007/08 7 Ronaldo de Lima 1996/97 7 Ronaldinho gaucho 2005/06 7 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/esm-team-of-the-month-the-complete-listing.2033633/ Lionel Messi is an anomaly and this source only but confirms his unprecedented consistency at the highest level as far as attacking players are concerned CR7 is the best of the rest. Notes 1.)despite the propaganda machine that is in full effect on this forum Zinedine Zidane was judged to have been a fairly consistent during his playing career with more ESM rankings than Xavi Hernandez or Andres Iniesta 2.)CR7 has more ESM team of the month inclusions than Kaka in 2006/07 More goals,more assists,was a significantly better league performer,even Kaka was forced to accept this https://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/kaka-man-utds-ronaldo-player-year-133312 The precedent for winning the ballon dor based on a few games was set way before Ronaldo (16/17)
Okay, this deserves to a certain degree an elaborate reply. First and foremost, a lot of what you say lacks context of understanding the specifics. If you are unaware of the subject well (clearly you are) perhaps you should refrain from engaging in that respect. Messi is overrated in the context of going unpunished for his minimal impact outside the confines of Barcelona. He’s an earthly figure for the NT and would have been thrown under the bus for his insufficient displays or relegated to the bench in the days of Maradona or “Tucho” Mendez. To make matters worse he stole from the NT lots of money and as dictator sabotaged the chances of putting together a younger and better equipped team in Russia — that’s my main beef with him. Characteristics: In regards to my conviction that Messi can’t clean Cruijff’s boots; it’s quite obvious that if Cruijff could make it in an era that received little protection from officials, where he was clearly a box-office stud at Ajax, Barcelona and for the NT, a true coach on the pitch, that made others around him better, an excellent operator on the flanks, ambidextrous, clever inside the box, effective in the central midfield and resourceful as centre-back or sweeper, then Messi can’t tie his shoe-laces. Because Messi is virtually a player of the final 1/3rd of the offensive pitch and ineffective outside the laboratory system of Barcelona. Add to that his weak leadership capacity and you have a limited player. If I have one game to go at war and I need to pick between the two in my trenches, I won’t hesitate to take the Dutchman with me over the little Argentino/Catalán. You can quote me on that! Skill-factor and eras: As I’ve stated, Messi only is stronger than Cruijff in how he carries his natural low centre of gravity that permits him to sustain a run without losing his balance in tight spaces. I repeat, the argument that he’s a better finisher is a specious one for several factors: the eras favored current players but castigated previous generations when there was more parity and little protection against malicious tackling. Furthermore, had Messi been born in another epoch he wouldn’t have made the headlines, because he probably would have never played professionally due to his hormone deficiency that would have gone untreated in a previous generation. Hypothetically speaking if he did play, particularly in the leagues of Spain or Italy in the epoch of Cruijff and Diego, I would bet my house that he’d make minimum media repercussions in Europe. Imagine him playing for a team like Valencia, Español or Como or Avellino... you can kiss goodbye the notion of him netting even 20 goals in a season. He’d be just another Calderon, Ramon Diaz or Daniel Bertoni — good players but nothing legendary. And I haven’t overrated anyone because during Cruijff and Maradona’s era they were for a decade considered generally the best. These two made it when the game was cagey and had little protection from officials. They are two of the greatest of all-time because they could have played in any era, and been the best, but Messi only in this era could make it, but I doubt it in another era.
I've been lucky enough to catch the very beginning of CR7 (from ManU on) and Messi. Also Ronaldinho at Barca from beginning and obviously Brazil NT. I fully understand the tricks CR7 used to do. Yes he could do all those things those other players you mentioned did. But I'd rate Ronaldinho over CR7 technically (overall) and R9's stepover > CR7. I never liked CR7's step over personally as they looked unnatural to me. He also had a tendency to do it at times where a step over wasn't needed ... and he did those a shit load of times. It's like he had to do step over just to give a pass back. R9 for example most of the time used it to do something. Either dribble or create space to get a shot off. Personally I also find Ronaldinho more technical than R9.
The word “technical ability”is banded around a lot on football forums Can we define a criteria for what is technique and what isn’t Am I wrong for conflating technique and ball skills. For example a player like Iniesta has great close control and a good first touch but he doesn’t stimulate me He isn’t skillful (relatively speaking of course) His shooting technique is practically non existent and his passing although good isn’t of the highest calibre(even relative to his generation he is below xavi,Messi,Pirlo,scholes,ozil,de bruyyne,Neymar,Di Maria,Kroos) Zidane from the games I can remember did stimulate me He was elegant,skilful,was a more than adequate scorer (and his shooting technique was quite good for a CM/AM ) He had his roulette as a trademark that he used to great effect(not consistently but definitely in high profile matches) Ronaldinho as an AM/SS obviously was a superior passer than R9 Personally I just don’t see dinho being even remotely comparable to r9 in ball skills R9 did what dinho did at 100mph and he also did what Ronaldinho could not do Many of the tricks r9 performed at inter were unique to him (such as the triple stepover) the close control coupled with his upper body strength,agility and unparalleled skill made r9 unplayable against normal teams 1997/1998 I think dinho brought his best form against big club sides even more than r9 but was inconsistent even during his peak against sides many would deem to be lesser teams (Interestingly this was a criticism levelled at zizou during his career aswell)
I voted Cristiano Ronaldo just to mention... however I think is hard to compare, Cristiano is more agressive, consistent, offensive and direct player (he is also much more ambicious too) than Ronaldinho and at his peak he was a better goalscorer... but I think Ronaldinho was better as playmaker (even if compared with 06/07 CR7) and also more technical, skillful and unpredictable player. Very different types of players. This is the stats between 05 Ronaldinho (maybe he was better in 06 though) and Manchester Cristiano Ronaldo (2003-2009) La Liga and Premier League: If you compare only 06-07 CR7 vs 05 Dinho's, the Brazilian was probably a better goalscorer (more accurate) and playmaker (more key passes + assists) Compared to 07/08 CR7... 05 Dinho was still a better playmaker but CR7 was a more prolific goalscorer. Real Madrid's Ronaldo is hard to compare, CR7 became a shooting machine (~6-7.5 shots per game vs he had less than 4 in 07-08) vs 3 shots/game from the Brazilian in 05'. I would say that in some moment CR7 probably reached similar levels of 07-08 in his shooting efficiency, example of 2013: 2007/2008 Premier CR7 vs 2013 CR7 Shooting accuracy: 58,8% vs 54,1% Chance Conversion: 23,7% VS 22,3% Chances Created: 52 in 34 matches (1,53) vs 94 in 56 matches (1,68) Goals: 31 in 34 matches (0,91 GPG) vs 66 in 56 matches (1,18 GPG) But you could also use that La Liga in Ronaldinho's time was more competitive than in the CR7 time though, this may be a counterpoint. That Real Madrid created a system in a slightly less competitive league that allowed Ronaldo to have 7 shots per game, his aggressiveness was potentialized at max in La Liga and of course he was already a world-class player before. About Milan Kaka vs Manchester Ronaldo, I'm not sure because I don't have these types of stats to compare now, but I mean Kaka and Ronaldinho both had more or less similar trajetories in Brazil, Ronaldinho was more experimented in the NT, but Kaka won the Bola de Ouro, Ronaldinho the Bola de Prata both with 20 years. Kaka was elect the best player in Serie A in his first season with 21 years-old (more or less the same age as CR7 in the 06/07 Premier) and was a world class player all the 2003-2008/2009. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/f...ristiano-Ronaldo-versus-Kaka-Whos-better.html Kaka in his first season in Europe: But imo the biggest difference between Cristiano Ronaldo and Ronaldinho, more than the difference between their peaks, styles (I think Ronaldinho was the most beautiful to watch) and brute stats (where Cristiano Ronaldo had clearly advantage), is that the Brazilian stopped to play at the highest level at age 27 and Cristiano Ronaldo is still out there with 33.
Ronaldos first Madrid season on an individual level has gone under the radar I concur with you that he was in this season still comparable/at the same level as Lionel Messi as an all round attacking threat His 09/10 campaign, while trophyless, was fantastic on an individual level. He scored 6 direct free-kicks & 7 solo goals & recorded his highest ever successful dribbles & key pass figures per 90 minutes (3.3 & 2.7 respectively) with Los Blancos. pic.twitter.com/70RaXVkmWQ— Managing Madrid (@managingmadrid) August 30, 2018 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8cy2RORXCOY From your source Ronaldinho averaged 2 key passes per match in 2005(34 league matches) Cristiano Ronaldo averaged 2.7 key passes per match(29 league matches) Opta stats don’t record dribbling stats as far back as 2005/06 but I’d bet money cRonaldo was a more prolific dribbler in 09/10 despite playing closer to goal,in addition to being a better goalscorer (big difference) Note: It is certainly true in 2006/07 Ronaldo was a weak finisher perhaps his only weak point but still comparable to dinho in terms of raw production Bottom line you can count on 1 hand the amount of times Ronaldo was a passenger in this season. He was at a very young age extremely productive,direct and entertaining. For me it remains the highest level ever seen in British football history what he did between late 2006 till his ankle injury in March 2008
I just find Ronaldinho's bag tricks bigger than R9 because it's not just dribbling. It's the way he treated the ball as we say in Brazil. Things like trapping and tricks like heel flicks. But R9 dribbling at speed was definitely another level ... and he had a bunch of other dribbling skills that weren't necessarily at full speed. But for me, technical skills is just that, it's how you trap the ball, how you can do with the it whatever you want whether it's on the ground or in the air. How you can use an arsenal of different passing styles to place it where ever you want.