CR7 vs Ronaldinho (prime only)

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by carlito86, Oct 9, 2018.

?

Who’s prime was better?

This poll will close on Feb 9, 2102 at 7:45 PM.
  1. Cristiano Ronaldo

    21 vote(s)
    45.7%
  2. Ronaldinho gaucho

    26 vote(s)
    56.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #501 carlito86, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019

    20 mins of dribbles from CRs 2006/07 season
    The best comp of its type on YouTube
    One of the greatest dribbling seasons of all time without question (and he was 21 years old for most of this season)


    @Edhardy @Tropeiro @ko242
    @Danko
    @celito @poetgooner
     
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #502 carlito86, Dec 13, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
    1203071617481330688 is not a valid tweet id



    CR was a devastatingly prolific and productive dribbler from the back end of 2006 up until early 2008

    it was during this 18 month window that SAF said he was at the same technical level as Diego Maradona.
    And johan Cruyff said he was already to superior to George Best.

    As early as mid 2008 he possibly lost some of this genius/technical ability
    And now we hear him described as 'the goal machine'
    Or 'robotic' or his form as 'machine like consistency'
    Only 5-6 players I saw live or on footage could singlehandedly with limited to no service take the game towards the opposing team
    Maradona is one of them
    So is Messi
    So is Cruyff (the early years of his ajax peak)
    So is R9 at inter Milan 97/98
    Some serie A games but mainly the UEFA cup

    And so is this version of CR
    2007 calendar year

    where many believe he was cheated of the ballon dor
     
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  3. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    That's probably the year that Ronaldo looked the best all around.
     
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    In terms of aesthetics and the "beauty of the game" I think this was the most unique great goal scored by a top 50 all timer


    Zidane a top tier technician tried it and failed
     
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  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #505 carlito86, Mar 10, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
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  6. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    carlito86 repped this.
  7. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #507 Tropeiro, Apr 21, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
    Ronaldinho 2006/2007
    Data of the matches when Messi was on the pitch too (part of 'Messi Project')

    [​IMG]




    [​IMG]

    0.38 open play assist expected per 90 is nothing bad. Messi touched the ball in the opposite box much more than Dinho, probably Dinho was more a attacking midfielder player and Messi more of a second striker.

    In the WC06 even tho he was drained by his club season and more in a party mode and even tho he 'played bad', statiscally he was a good player in terms of carrying his team especially with his passes, for example.



    He had more progressive passes (13.6) than Messi in 2014 (5.5), Neymar in 2018 (7.8), Zico in 1982 (8.6), Cruyff in 1974 (11.9), Pelé in 1970 (8.2) or Maradona in 1986 (10.6), Xavi in 2010 (9.3).

    Progressive passes advance the ball at least 10 yards toward the opponent's goal or into their box.

    Also 0.5 non-shot expected goals just behind Cruyff, Maradona and Neymar (0.6) among those, but no shorter than Pelé's 1970 (0.5), Xavi (0.5), Messi in 2014 (0.4) or Zico in 1982 (0.3) and better than Maradona 82 and 90 too (0.3).
     
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  8. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    Where do you have these world cup data
     
  9. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
  10. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    I don't find is all that easy to be honest. Analyzing the best phase of Cristiano Ronaldo (2007-2012) with the best phase of Ronaldinho (2004-2006), if I had to start a team from the day 1 I would choose Cristiano Ronaldo because he was more consistent and profesional (you know he would perform all matches), but if I already had a project with consistent players (and results) I would choose Ronaldinho who had a bigger X factor imo.

    Pure Offensive Skills:
    Dribbling, Playmaking: Ronaldinho
    Goalscoring: Cristiano Ronaldo

    Athleticism: Almost tie, but Cristiano Ronaldo.

    Also if a need a forward playmaker then Ronaldinho, a goalscorer, Cristiano Ronaldo. It depends.

    I think they are a very different players overall.

    Btw, at their very best I think Ronaldinho was a better footballer, and if had a better mindset and was a bit more consistent then he could reach Maradona's (83-88) and Cruyff's (69-74) level of dominance, even tho some would put Ronaldinho (04-06) up with these players more often than not. Messi is better than these players imo, even tho Messi is also not a leader or has a ganador character.

    Ronaldinho was different from someone like Neymar for example, in the best moments of Ronaldinho you really saw greatness .. the technique he had, the execution of his dribbling, his passing, his movement with the ball... it was a level up, and he was just as creative as Ney if not slight more. Also more physical, strong on the ball. All Neymar had on Ronaldinho is better mentality and maybe better off-ball movement to score goals (even tho Ronaldinho was more a playmaker than him).

    So, I think it is close.. no surprise Ronaldinho is winning the contest.
     
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  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #511 carlito86, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
    Sample size 511 club matches

    Almost an entire club career if your name happens to be
    Luis Figo

    According to transfermarket Figo played
    50562 minutes(equivalent 562 matches) for Barcelona,real Madrid and inter

    During that time frame he made
    173 assists

    0.3 assists per 90

    let's take out his inter career(for the sake of argument he was well past it)

    For Barcelona and real madrid he played
    40787 minutes equivalent 453 matches

    During that time frame he made 144 assists
    Equivalent 0.31 assists

    Luis Figo as a winger midfielder had no job except to create goals and goal scoring opportunities


    When prime CRonaldo was assisting at 0.3 goals per match He was also scoring at 0.79 goals per match over 500~ matches

    Every type of goal

    Still this 500 match sample size isn't even a true representation of Cristiano at his prime because it includes seasons
    2003/04
    2004/05
    2005/06

    Real Prime for prime we'll let the facts talk for themselves


    2006/07 till 2014/15
    9 seasons(Aged 21 till 30 years old)

    404 goals+139 assists
    38595 minutes
    Equivalent 428 matches

    0.94 goals scored per 90
    0.32 assists per 90

    That's 9 consecutive seasons

    You're making the wrong comparisons

    This is not a fifa,pes game or football manager game where you compare the individual attributes of players and make definitive statements


    Ronaldos combination of elite scoring and wing creating is unmatched


    If you want a player from matchday 1 till matchday 38 you concede you'll pick Cristiano because of the 'guarantee'


    Dude if you want a player for just 24 minutes you get this vs Barcelona


    In a random league match against 6th place Bolton 2006/07 you get 3 assists in 25 miniutes
    https://www.transfermarkt.com/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/55731


    You want a player for just 3 games?

    You get 3 legendary goals scored in champions league QF and SF vs arsenal and Porto
    Screenshot_20200715-110816-1.jpg





    A player for 5 games?
    Screenshot_20200715-125348-1.jpg
    10 goals in 5 games vs Bayern Munich,atletico Madrid and juventus

    A player for 20 games?

    A player for 1 season?

    07/08
    CL MVP
    PL MVP
    Ballon dor
    Fifa WPOTY
    42 goals as a 22 year old "creative attacker"

    2009/10
    the solo goal machine and FK specialist

    2011/12 and 2014/15
    The most ruthless and complete goalscorer of the modern era(last 30 years)

    2019/20

    Probably as great as milan version van basten in scoring and dribbling and definitely better as a creator

    7:46-11:20

    Take your pick

    Ronaldinho cannot touch this
    Its a non comparison





    Lastly have you ever considered this:

    For 9 consecutive prime seasons CR was averaging 5-6 shots per match and scoring 0.94 goals per 90
    He was also assisting 0.32 goals per 90
    He was also being fouled as much as any player in the world
    He was also in some seasons the best ball carrier in the world(2009/10 is a dead cert there is data for this)
    He was also according to some respected opinions the most dominant athlete in football history

    He was also according to some great football minds/legends a technical genius

    For 20 minutes
    For 45 minutes
    1 match
    Half a season
    A full season
    5,10,15 full seasons
    Ronaldinho never not even once reached a higher level as Cristiano ronaldo








    C.Ronaldo did his damage against the best teams and goalkeepers of his era

    0 goals in the brasiliero,eredivisie,Ligue 1,NASL,Mexican league,J-league etc




    After 29 years ronaldo declined in everything (shots outside the box,headers,dribbling etc)
    https://www.givemesport.com/1579749...ttributed-to-knee-condition-in-twitter-thread

    Even then is this 2015-2020 guise he is not less than 95% of footballers that ever lived



    Edit:
    You are a very contradictory personality
    Especially regarding Neymar vs ronaldinho

    Id say its almost bordering on intentional deception

    The problem with being intentionally deceptive is you will consistently make self defeating arguments
    Let's just take this at face value


    Ronaldinho's prime (according to yourself in numerous places) was from 2003/04 till 2006/07

    4 consecutive seasons

    You've restricted Cruyff and Maradonas greatness to only 5 consecutive seasons

    Consequently they are only 1 season greater than ronaldinho

    Or are you saying Ronaldinho even in his 4 season prime did not have the correct mindset

    It is confusing (you are confusing)

    Just for the sake of argument:
    Maradona in his alleged 5 season prime never had the correct mindset
    This is not disputed

    In 1983/84
    He was battling hepatitis C infection,injuries,disciplinary issues and had already been experimenting with cocaine

    This is a model of professionalism and a correct mindset?

    So in effect what you are trying to say is

    Maradona had 4 great seasons (1982/83 and 85-88)
    Ronaldinho had 4 seasons (2003/04-2006/2007)

    So they are in effect comparable if not equal
    Say what you mean and mean what you say


    Just as a matter of historical fact:

    Cruyff finished 7th place in the 1970 ballon dor

    This was an era in which non Europeans were ineligible for the ballon dor
    It was also a year in which Brazil won the world cup

    Where would Cruyff rank in the 1970 ballon dor had Pele,jairzinho,tostao,Carlos Alberto and gerson been eligible

    How about If cubillas had been eligible

    14th or 15th ballon dor (arguably)
    If you know about the world cup bonus than this isn't improbable at all

    Since you have restricted Cruyff to only 5 great seasons we can cancel out 1969/70 under the premise that he would've finished 14th-15th place in the 1970 ballon dor under modern era ballon dor rules

    Leaving Cruyff with (allegedly)only 4 great seasons

    So in effect what you are trying to say is

    Cruyff had only 4 great seasons
    Ronaldinho had 4 great seasons
    So they are in effect comparable if not equal

    Say what you mean and mean what you say
     
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  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    RamyBt repped this.
  13. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Zico at #16 and Platini at #12... without no Rummenigge in the list, a German player that was viewed by many experts superior to both during the late 1970s and early 1980s, and had the accolades to back it up. Typical FourFourTwo and their modern revisionist internet rankings.
     
  14. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Quantity over quality.


    Quantity over quality again.
     
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  15. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    All valuable matches against almost equal, equal or stronger teams.

    Ronaldo had 67 Goals (54 Non-PK Goals) and (at max) 8 Assists in 83 Matches. Data from Transfermarkt.

    Assist number 1

    4:02
    lol

    Assist number 2
    I can't identify this assist here.

    OPTA credit Cristiano Ronaldo with 0 assists in the UCL tho.


    Also.. if Real Madrid had he not given up on the Spanish league in the 2008/2009 season (after the 2-6 to Barcelona), Marseille would probably not even qualify as a valuable opponent probably, but still.

    67 Goals (54 Non-PK Goals), 6 Assists in 83 matches.

    Assist number 3


    3:28
    Pass to Ozil in the PK area!


    Assist number 4



    Tells more about his athleticism and ball carrying ability than his playmaking ability. The shot was outside of the area.

    Assist number 5


    10:10

    Finished match. Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't even appear. Solo action from Marcelo.

    Assist number 6


    6:25

    Again tells more about his athleticism to receive the ball in the PK area than his playmaking or passing ability.

    Assist number 7

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bVoNeSkYZc
    2:55

    Another quality assist to enter the statistics!! lol

    Assist number 8


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHA-XPa6pHg

    Simple link up pass to Marcelo.

    6 Assists in 83 Matches (none of them a great assist).
    Average 0.07 per match


    Football is not only a final pass tho, but still.
     
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  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    KHR had only 3 world class seasons according to kicker

    3 world class seasons And he played 10 full campaigns in Germany

    What are considered to be his best seasons?

    1979/80
    1980/81
    1983/84

    In 79/80 He scored 26 bundesliga goals in 2996 minutes(33 matches)

    In 80/81 he scored 29 goals in 3060 miniutes(34 matches)

    In 83/84 He scored 26 goals in 2520 matches (28 matches)

    Bundesliga 79/80 averaged 3.34 goals per match
    Bundesliga 80/81 averaged 3.4 goals per match
    Bundesliga 83/84 averaged 3.47 gpg




    Dieter muller had only 12 caps for Germany

    In 76/77 scored 34 bundesliga goals in 34 matches

    Bundesliga 76/77 averaged 3.47 gpg

    Dieter muller 76/77 played in the same era as KHR
    Koln was also a offensively worse team as Bayern 79/80,80/81 and 83/84

    So before anything we can agree KHRs peak as a scorer in the Bundesliga was surpassed by a guy with 12 caps for Germany(dieter muller)

    was KHR uniquely impressive in the European cup?

    In 79/80 He was outscored by soren lerby by a healthy margin of 4 goals

    In 80/81 he was joint top scorer with Graeme souness and Terry mc dermot (midfielders)

    In 81/82 he was outscored in the EC by dieter Hoeneß(6 caps for west Germany)

    This is weak stuff man

    Platini outscored Hector yazalde in the French league
    Hector yazalde who destroyed the Portuguese league/Benfica scoring way above 1 gpg in some seasons

    Platini scored 9 goals in 6 Euro championship matches in 84

    Platini scored 17 non penalty Serie A goals in Serie A 83/84

    And goalscoring wasn't even his primary function
    Marco van basten a CF never scored more than 16 non penalty goals in Serie A 88-92

    Whether we are talking about prime or longevity Karl Heinz rumminge was not objectively at that level of a real all timer

    Neither in finishing

    He had only 2 seasons with 10+ league assists
    81/82 and 83/84

    in one of those seasons he had only 14 league goals

    I'm not impressed to be honest







    Above all else lists of this nature have to factor in longevity at the top
    Platini and Zico were ultimately just more dominant for considerably longer

    Platini from 77-84
    Zico from 74-83

    Rumminge reached a world class level in
    79/80
    80/81
    83/84

    Some good matches in 84/85

    I can't think of anything else




    2 ballon dors in a weak era (so did Keegan)
     
  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #517 carlito86, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
    This is CRAZY

    Quality over quantity
    You have not and cannot establish the quality of the polls participants

    How mad can you get tropiero
    Its an open poll for ANY big soccer member to participate in

    ANY
    Somebody could make an account right now and vote
    It's a popularity poll with 25 participants

    You cant even say experts because you don't know who voted for whom



    How small minded and dismissive can you be



    Challenge(s) of the day:

    What is a quality football analyst?
    Define it

    Is quality confined to the beautiful game section on big soccer?

    Is quality restricted to 15 forum members on a sub thread of big soccer who subscribe to your opinion?
    (15 poll participants who's identity cannot be established)



    Are you a valuable contributor to this discussion or a chart generator?

    Can you please tick this box
    main-qimg-f2991a22e850f67d18f4789c5dd98358.png










     
  18. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Guess why? I can.

    Cristiano Ronaldo wins the vote for the best "right winger" of all time on Facebook's, Youtube's or The Sun's or popular medias and that is enough for him. Here he would not escape for the word overrated if he was called the best "right winger" of all time. You can open a thread about this pool? And see what people think about it.

    And yes, you can create as many accounts as you want, which wouldn't be the first time I'm pretty sure.
     
  19. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    #519 Tropeiro, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020

    Non-PK Goals, team average, assist, team goals, weak era, strong era, some random xtratime thread about Kicker ratings... do you actually watch football matches or it is all from football forums and misleading stats? Maybe you are watching I don't know... basketball... and thinking that you are watching football.
     
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  20. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    This doesn't belong to this discussion.
     
  21. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Mate, that so-called ‘weak era’ coincided with Platini’s epoch.

    Let me address some points, although it will probably fall on deaf ears, so I won’t waste much time here.

    You speak about Rummenigge’s ratings in Germany, but Platini’s ratings, with the exception of the second half to 1982-83 and the entire 1983-84 season, are nothing to write home about in Italy, according to Guerin Sportivo. In addition, Platini’s ascension to the top of European football arrived once he joined defending Italian champs Juventus, with the backbone of Italy’s WC winning squad of 1982.

    At the NT level I will remind you that Rummenigge and Germany also sent Platini and France packing back to Charles de Gaulle airport after two consecutive semifinal defeats at the World Cup, with Rummenigge turning the tide with his decisive arrival off the bench in Seville 1982.

    As for the 1984 Euro, a wide open tournament played at home for France, Platini was the standout figure, with a star-studded midfield, but many things went their way, like the fact that France avoided Europe’s top heavyweights, with West Germany, England, Italy, USSR, all failing, while Belgium, with the Standard Liege-Waterschei matchfixing scandal at the end of the 1981-82 season had stripped their best defenders. Furthermore, Spain in the final were deprived of Maceda, Gordillo and Goicoechea. In addition, it was one of the most controversial European finals, with an official that was very partial for the home side. Mostly every Spanish newspaper the next day headlined that it had been a charade with Mr Christov, the official.

    And with all due respect to the French members on this forum, but the French League wasn’t considered an elite league at that time. I have read interviews from that era and from the 1980s from various Argentinian and Uruguayan players that migrated to play in France and they spoke about it as having little pressure, no physical demands, with half empty stadiums, as football was not seen as the major sport in the country. It was night and day compared to the criticism and pressure that they were used to back in South America from the fans and home press.

    Moving on to Zico’s case, considering he played mostly all his career in Brazil, where the dynamics and structures are different from European leagues, there really is no comparison. However, at NT level Zico simply failed to distinguish himself on the centre stage, registering very few memorable performances in pivotal high profile matches.

    The truth is that with the passing of time, players become greater than they really were in this modern revisionist internet era, while others that were held in high regard have fell back in the pecking order.
     
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  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #522 carlito86, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
    "The Sun's"
    "YouTube's"
    "Popular medias"

    Where are they I genuinely don't see them?

    You have delusions of grandeur

    Nobody cares about
    "what you can do" or "what you can say"

    Im trying to tell you politely but you're being extremely defiant

    Having the ability to voice ones own opinion doesn't mean that opinion has any legitimacy or basis

    The only thing established is you can type in a mildly coherent manner.

    That's it

    The substance of what you say
    However many times you say it
    has no legitimacy here(the den of experts)

    I have repped 80% of your posts

    If you think that is an exaggeration please feel free to correct me

    You have contributed with roughly 1100 posts and received 276 reps

    That's one rep for every 25 posts

    My reps really shouldn't count tbh considering I am not a 'quality poster'

    That leaves you with roughly 60 reps
    That is 1 rep for every 50 posts

    If big soccer really is a den of experts
    Than what does that say about you?


    How many words have you typed?

    How many 'insurmountable pieces of objective analysis' have you presented?

    Please remember that it is your own assertion that poll participants and by extension big soccer members are experts whos opinion is final/binding

    "Ronaldinho is winning..." you said
    "This is proof" or "no wonder why"

    11,000 fans from a alternative poll
    Who are they?

    "Quality over quantity" you boastfully said

    Where is the quality in your posts if only one in 50 of your posts are being repped by members not named Carlito86?


    Look dude
    Back on topic

    What is a quality football analyst?

    And what are your credentials?
    Otherwise it's pointless
     
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  23. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    You are certainly buying time while setting up your propaganda against Ronaldinho or simply finding a way to mask how Cristiano Ronaldo was never a great playmaker in important games for Real Madrid. Ronaldinho had a inmense advantage in terms of dribbling and playmaking against almost equal, equal or stronger teams. This was easily seen by me after watching some videos.

    PD: Your obsession with me is out of the charts. Forget me, dude. lol
    You don't have to prove anything to me. I only gave my opinion, I recognized the qualities of Cristiano Ronaldo, but I also touched on his defects.
     
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  24. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    OK, Vegan.

    I find it hilarious how you let it between the lines the argument of how the Argentine league had better level than the Brazilian and French ones and that the Argentine style of play was more similar to the European one, as if that were the peak of the game (remain Brazil is five-time champion country, Argentina won it two times and in a suspect way you know that).

    There's no Elo rating or such thing for Brazilian League or Brazilian football. The French League was probably a TOP5 level already in 70s-80s.

    Nowadays, French League is still the TOP5 in Europe (even tho with still less pressure of the media and fans) while accoring to Plus Minus method for all players, Argentina is ranked very below (below MLS btw).


    4:25

    Fivethirtyeight has Argentina with only four teams with more than 50 SPI (their method). Brazil eleven.
    In this system Argentina is more or less on par with the Portuguese and Eredivise as well.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/previsoes-de-futebol/superliga/

    Smarterscout use his own methodology in terms of offensive, defensive, duels and finishing ability to analyze how the players of one league translate their level to another league and how the teams would perform and they are reaching accurate predictions. Actually a player nowadays in Brasileirão can adapt at another league as good (even tho in different ways) as players from the French League.

    [​IMG]

    The argentinian players from today's Superliga maybe don't translate their level as well tho.

    Also remember Brazil is the biggest player exporter from the rest of the world (and not for small leagues from South America), the country who had more minutes as foreign in the big five league or in the UCL.

    There's no evidence that Brazil in 1970 or early 1980 produced less quality players than nowadays since Brazil was still ranked as the best NT for the decade average.

    So why the Argentinian league or football in 1970 was stronger than the Brazilian or even French league in 1970 or 1980? There's no evidence about it, despite Argentinians and Uruguayans being more passionate than even Brazilian fans, let alone the French ones... and that's why people in your thread people don't care about Maradona playing with Argentinos Juniors or Boca Juniors... they care about what he did in Europe. So write down my tips and be more objective.

    So, Zico deserve to be rated for what he did and his impact while playing in Brazil imo, so is Rummenigge with his only three world class seasons in Germany. I disagree with some of your observations after that also, but that would be so much off-topic here.

    It was not for now or modern revisionists in the Internet era, Zico was rated better in the end of the last century too... as well as Platini....and normally Zico is rated higher than Ronaldinho in Brazil nowadays as well.
    Ej.
    http://web.archive.org/web/20071008...f7370eff3702bb0a35bb6e28fc380de43110f83d00e1a

    If you compare the IFFHS 1999 and now some popular english media like 442, then it was Maradona that becomes over rated (english complex for Maradona's performance in 1986 plays a important role here) with the passing of the time.
     
  25. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #525 carlito86, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
    when they reached the top who shone brighter

    Was Karl Heinz rumminge ever the dominant,unquestionable best player in the world


    I can ask you because you are (presumably) of that age group

    How would a random fan in 1981 with no allegiance to west Germany or bayern Munich answer when questioned who was the best player in the world?

    Would they say of course KHR or say someone else and then maybe say KHR when reminded


    I ask this because through the modern lens he wasn't particularly or outstandingly productive in terms of end product

    I have seen many overrated historical figures

    But I have never seen someone who was underrated except that there was a solid reason(s) as to why he wasn't as fondly remembered as his contemporaries


    Its easier in my opinion to overrate someones achievements than it is to underrate them


    The fact that Karl Heinz never left a real indelible legacy at bayern Munich (as a player not director)
    I mean as a potential GOAT of his club

    That his peak was short

    He was also a cross generational player with Gerd muller and beckenbaur
    2 titans

    Two players who left their mark at every level
    To be mentioned alongside them or to even separate himself he'd have to do alot more than he did
    And for alot longer than he did


    Before Platini France never had a real superstar since kopa
    15-20 years gap

    Zico was really great maybe in 1978(at least in terms of worldwide perception/recognition)
    8 years after the final swan song of Pele in WC 1970

    There is a gap
    Zico may of been in Peles shadow(every Brazilian is)but he never suffered the misfortune of sharing the limelight



    Let's say some Portuguese phenomenon emerges tomorrow
    Bangs 30-35 league goals in a top league
    Scores a dozen goals in the CL
    Wins the cup
    Win the ballon dor

    Objectively he is a better performer than Cristiano Ronaldo

    But historically his form will not gain the credit it deserves because Cristiano normalised that kind of brilliance
    And he did it for much much longer

    Maybe the narrative,achievements of Muller and beckenbaur are just too strong for KHR to compete with

    If he established a legacy at another club other than bayern munich than maybe he'd have a more compelling case


    Flamengo =Zico
    Platini=France+juventus
    Beckenbaur+Muller:Bayern Munich

    You don't have to think
    They are Intrinsically linked

    Platini was 3× consecutive Capocannoniere as a AM

    You cannot forget that

    9 goals in 6 Euro championship matches(whatever the context,opponents,however easy the route was)
    You can't forget it or deny it
    Whether a fan or hater

    He did it and no else till this day did

    Rumminge doesn't have a established long lasting legacy like these two(and particularly platini)

    Wed probably have to go to some obscure bundesliga record books and dig up something to prop up KHR

    And there is his 2 ballon dors
    But then Kevin Keegan did that also

    Rumminge was athletically gifted specimen
    Was a versatile forward and a good scorer in an era in which it was really easy to score goals

    Technically I don't see how he is markedly greater than many other Europeans of that era

    Blokhin and resenbrink are just two immediate names that spring to mind


    Whether it is Gerd muller or beckenbaur,zico or Platini they were exceedingly good in 1 or 2 aspects of the game
    All time good

    I don't think KHR ever was(physicality aside which is not really a lauded quality if not combined with footballing artistry)


    I understand the things you say about the NT record

    KHR played for a world cup and Euro championship winning nation.
    Platini did not

    Expectations are different
    The history of France as a heavyweight begins with Platini and continues with zidane leading up until this present day



    Stuff like WC qualification matches
    Goals in a world cup final that his team lost

    Who scored Croatias 28th minute equaliser in the 2018 WC final?
    Maybe you know maybe you don't
    Truth is no one cares


    He lost in 86 and history doesn't fondly look back on losers

    Especially as it is only 1 well assisted goal that he scored in an open match vs Argentina

    Karl Heinz rumminge wasnt lightning up the tournament either with great Playmaking or skills

    You can say he wasn't in the best physical condition but that is just another reason as to why he isn't as fondly remembered As Platini or maradona



    Zico is just a more iconic player IMO

    And more endearing with his style of football
     

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