the fact that you cannot comprehend that what Ronaldo did against Roma in 07 was legendary just goes to show how biased or uninformed you are Manchester United only thrashed Roma 8-3 on aggregate because Ronaldo was in superlative form contributing to 6 of the 8 goals scored by his team. In the first leg Manchester United lost 2-1 away at Roma and Ronaldo was the one who contributed with a great pre assist dribbling from his own half. 1:56-2:20 I don’t think I have to explain the importance of an away goal (especially if you lose 2-1 and play the next leg at home) Away leg(7-1) Assist 1:20-1:50 2:10-2:25 Initiates a counter attack from his own half dribbling past two players which leads to a goal 4:55-5:20 Scores a good individual goal 6:27-6:35 Scores a tap in from a great cross from Ryan giggs 7:20-7:44 Does some damage on the wing,first with some link up play with Patrice evra then dribbles pass two players on the wing makes a cross which leads to a fantastic goal scored by Micheal carrick Over both legs Ronaldo completed 14 dribbles and was involved in 6 goals and had several attempts on goal himself. The fact that you attempted to make a false equivalence between 06/07 roma and 11/12 Bayern Leverkusen is laughable if not totally ridiculous (forgive me I don’t mean to sound harsh or rude but your logic baffles me sometimes) Roma finished 2nd in serie A Bayern Leverkusen finished 5th in bundesliga Up till the quarterfinals when they had encountered Manchester United roma had only conceded 4 goals. They had up until that point the best defence in the champions league. This is the team that Ronaldo ripped to shreds(not bloody Bayern Leverkusen) After this game the Italian and British press widely considered Ronaldo the best player in the word La Repubblica https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2007/apr/11/newsstory.championsleague1 “When Cristiano Ronaldo began to put his foot over the ball for his famous stepover, after not even 20 seconds, Roma's players already looked like those children who hate car journeys and throw up at the first bend in the road," he says. "Ronaldo is the best in the world. Or at least the most entertaining." Even Francisco Totti was afraid of meeting Ronaldo at Old Trafford 2007 https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ews/ronaldo-player-roma-fear-most-2257881.amp 'Ronaldo can decide a match on his own,' observed Totti. 'You see what he can do, not just against us last week, but regularly in the Premiership, and it seems he is capable of doing just about anything. 'He can make the difference in this game but we just have to hope he doesn't play well.' The superlative level CR7 reached in 2006/07 is a cut above anything Ronaldinho produced for Barcelona Ronaldo didn’t win the 2007 ballon dor because of a single game(the semifinals vs Milan) Up until that point he was by far and away the best league performer in Europe and until the semifinals just as impressive as kaka in the champions league Note Ronaldo scored the opening goal in the champions league final vs Chelsea,was the best player in the first half and the best player in extra time He was voted uefa fans man of the match( Edwin van der sar won MOTM for his penalty shootout heroics) If this isn’t a big game performance than you have extremely high standards for Ronaldo that you seemingly don’t have for anybody else And I didn’t say his performance vs Roma in 2008 was a big game performance I said it was an example of a knockout game (in this case a quarter final )that he had decided singlehandedly without having a phenomenal all round performance (And the same goes for Porto 2009) Conclusion: You have yet to show me any league performances by Ronaldinho that are in the same league as the ones by CR7 In the op Ronaldinho isn’t unique for performing at a high level in many knockout/big games in a short period of time Cristiano Ronaldo also managed to do this during 07-09 Johan Cruyff managed to do this during 72-74 Heck even Marco van basten managed to do this between 87-89 He was the star of the European cup winners cup scoring in the final (1987) The hat trick vs England The euro final 88 vs the soviets (and THAT goal) The semifinal and final performances in the 89 European Cup Lionel messi also managed this between 2009-2011 The quarter finals vs arsenal 09/10 The semi final vs Real Madrid 10/11 The final vs Manchester United 10/11 The 5-0 thrashing Barcelona handed to Madrid in the camp nou in 10/11(messi was phenomenal in this game I remember) Bottom line Ronaldinho isn’t a unique big game performer(even within a limited time frame). His prime was entertaining but he also wasn’t unique in terms of his entertainment value Personally I was as impressed if not more by watching Cristiano Ronaldo at Manchester United during 2006-2008,Lionel messi at Barcelona till 2011 R9 at intermilan or Barcelona,Neymar jr at PSG,zinedine zidane In his first two real Madrid seasons(and 96/97 97/98 for juve) Etc I refuse to be a YouTube bot that insists Ronaldinho is the most aesthetically pleasing player ever who was capable of doing stuff no one could I think the most laughable aspect of this whole thing is it’s become acceptable to say Ronaldinho was close to prime Diego Maradona (which is something that was never claimed when he was at his peak) Ronaldinho is but one technical playmaking specialist from amongst many others (Laudrup,hagi,stojkovic,zidane,zico,baggio etc) Maradona won a World Cup with barely average teammates.he was a leader and unsurpassed talent Ronaldinho was gifted and performed at a great level for only two to 3 years. But in a team filled with world class international players he couldn’t take charge and make his mark (This is a huge blot on his resume even according Brazilian journalist juca kfouri from footballs greatest) Not to mention Maradona was the bpitw playing in two different continents (the distance isn’t the question but rather the style and tactics)
The most important, Pele transcended his numbers of Campeonato Paulista to the big stages: This is the Pele stats in 1957-1961 (16-20/21 years old) time. Pele for Santos: 201 Matches/255 Goals and 100 assist 1,76 G/A per match Pele for Brazilian NT: 28 Matches/30 Goals and 19 assist 1,75 G/A per match Pele in WC58 and American Cup 59: 10 Matches/14 Goals and 3 assist 1,7 G/A per match
Just for curiosity: Pele 1962-1966 Pele for Santos: 171 Matches/ 222 Goals and 78 Assists. 1,76 G/A per match Pele for Santos in (Intercontinental) Tournaments: 18 Matches/ 24 Goals and 12 Assists 2 G/A per match Pele for NT team: 40 Matches/ 37 Goals and 14 Assists. 1,28 G/A per match Pele in the WC62 and WC66 (both injured): 4 Matches/2 Goals and 1 Assist 0,75 G/A per match Again, Pele transcended his numbers of Campeonato Paulista to the big stages now to the Libertadores and Intercontinental Cup. So that so called peak Pele (1957-1966) had won the most important trophies for the NT and for the Club and with 440 Matches/544 Goals and 211 assist = 1,74 G or A per game, he had a awesome resume. He was also a World Class player between 1967 and 1970 and he also transcended that performance to 1970 World Cup too. Pele for Santos: 144 Matches/107 Goals and 36 assist 0,99 G/A per match Pele for Brazilian NT: 43 Matches/ 27 Goals and 26 assist 1,23 G/A per match Pele in WC70: 6 Matches/ 4 Goals and 6 Assist 1,67 G/A per match Pele between 1967 and 1970 had no less than 134 Goals and 62 Assists in 187 Matches (1,05 G/A per match) Still in 1973 (completely out of his peak) he was voted the best player in South America by El Mundo after one second position in 1972. He won the Campeonato Paulista and had 30 goals and 13 assists in 49 matches that year.
There are a few notes I would like to add Bella kona (a Pelé fanboy you tuber)lists his career assist total as 197 assists in official matches so I don’t understand how you reached your total of 200+ assists in a relatively short time period Personally I think a lot of old time legends exaggerated his legacy For example Beckenbauer claiming he dominated for two decades,he probably only dominated for ten years at most-if domination means being amongst the top 3 players in the world 1959-1965 1969 and possibly 1970(although I’m not too sure about this) As far as I’m concerned what Pelé did in NASL is irrelevant the same goes for George best,cruyff and Beckenbauer If American “soccer” is mediocre at best today then in the 70s when it was at it’s infancy the level of competition was a complete joke They where basically facing players who were farmers and cowboys only the day before These legends from the 60s and 70s were obviously brought to promote American soccer ,a country that had no footballing history prior to their arrival Another thing you have to take into condition is Pelé played in a high scoring era and in a very high scoring team Between 1957-1965 Santos averaged 3.4 goals per match Hence the outrageous score lines 10-0,9-0,11-1 etc The Brazilian NT between 58-70 also averaged 3 goals per match This is undoubtedly aided his record when compared to the likes of muller,Cristiano and Messi who played in a lower scoring era and teams It is interesting that FIFA poster boy Pelé also lost the vote for the 20th centuries greatest goal scorer which went to ferenc Puskas. Having said all of this (while still maintaining Pelé is slightly-greatly overrated as a goalscorer)I still think he was as an overall package the greatest footballer who ever lived The power,athleticism,dribbling ability,feints,two footedness,vision,ability in the air (despite his size) and of course his ability in front of goal has only been equalled by a few players. Pelé is the most complete player of all time (not John Charles,Di Stefano or even Gullit) João Saldanha (Brazilian coach) even told journalists Pelé was his best goalkeeper and I believe he was a reserve goalkeeper in certain Matches and even played as one a few times !! http://www.football-history.net/blog/pele-as-a-goalkeeper.htm I use to think Maradona was his equal if not better but it’s only when you analyse their careers properly without any biases that you realise a comparison between the two is ridiculous Maradona was only at his level in World Cup 86 which however important or iconic is still a 7 game tournament Pelé was Pelé week in week out for years on end.the Maradona that played in Mexico in 86 is not the same that played for Napoli (the difference in quality is vast) Messi is the only worthy competitor of Pelé and even he is lacking in certain areas (particularly in being reliant on his left foot and relatively weak in the air) He probably balances it out by having superior vision. Menotti who watched both Maradona and Pelé even commented in 2012 messi was Maradona 86 for the past 5 years. Hence it’s totally ridiculous many here only started ranking him top 10 all time after 2014 or 2015 Messi’s period of dominance between 2009-2011 is equal to cruyff from 71-74 and the latter was exclusive rated as a all timer for his exploits with Ajax and Holland in the early 70s
@Tropeiro A 21 year old Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo starting at a level many legends only reached when they peaked (Including Ronaldinho,Thierry Henry,zinedine zidane,Rivaldo,Romario etc Neymar looks to be close to this level but is still lacking consistency however he’s 26 years old now-big difference
You make me laugh Carlitos, in typical “Carlitos’s way”... First, the NASL was an amateur league with college students that had no pro-level knowledge to the game. It was not really a promotion of the retired stars but a robbery with a white-glove. They only cared about cashing in in detriment of the league, which eventually went bankrupt due to the known fact that North American business was in their best interest. Pelé made more money in New York than in his entire career in Brazil. He didn’t give a damn about the States. Second point, Pelé playing like Diego week in and week out like Mexico ‘86 is purely conjecture, just like so many unsubstantiated claims online on Internet forums. There is absolutely no entire season footage of him and the State leagues were never regarded first-rate. If in Zico’s and Reinaldo’s era the State leagues were limited to a bag of professional to unprofessional quality, imagine more primitive decades... Third, Messi is a product of propaganda by the Barcelona media and western media. Outside the confines of that club he’s just at the level of others. La Liga is a watered down league for decades and football has favored offensive players since the rules started to drastically change in the 1990s. And there is no equal of Messi to Cruijff at any point because the Dutchman is so superior that the little Argentinian cannot even clean his boots. Cruijff played in a harder era, was a total footballer without being a complete footballer; but he was a leader unlike the Argentinian that vomits and lacks intestinal fortitude when he plays for the Albiceleste in crucial games. A lot can be said of Cruijff and about his mercenary attitude and how the Barcelona fans didn’t always appreciate his professionalism but as a player and leader, Messi can’t touch him. And the reality is at the NT level, there were so many better players in Argentinian history than him. And you can quote me on that!!
What Messi achieved between 2009-2011 rivals cruyffs period of dominance between 71-74(at least at club level) This isn’t conjecture or mere speculation but facts that can be substantiated easily Lionel Messi was during this period (and even till 2012) the worlds best dribbler and goalscorer During this same period was the protagonist behind 3 consecutive league titles and two champions league trophies Messi essentially combined the dribbling ability of pre 86 Maradona(before the injuries) and the goal scoring of prime Eusébio He was an outrageous player and I didn’t need the help of the media or Barcelona propaganda machine to reach this conclusion (I’ve been following Lionel Messi since 2007 and Cristiano since 2005/06) Being a leader or possessing leadership qualities is arguably independent of how one should be perceived as a player Tony Adams was considered a very vocal leader and his defensive qualities were overhyped as a consequence If you meant as an organiser than yes I would agree.cruyff spoke and his teammates listened and of course he led by example. Cruyff has often been compared to a general on the pitch(his presence and overwhelming influence on his team is one of the reasons I rate him so highly) I just think messi is evidently a more gifted player than Cruyff (in vision and dribbling)and a vastly superior goalscorer (even if it’s just within the confines of Barcelona) One could also make a case that Cruyff only replicated his Ajax form for Holland in one tournament In Barcelona while still amazing (particularly in his debut season) I don’t believe or I’m yet to be convinced he was the same player
This is in Spanish Wikipedia, I just got it .. but someone should have put it there for some reason, the truth is that it's pretty hard to confirm right ... I tried to compile all the assists of Zico by a famous newspaper of the time and I I simply could not, simply because from my source I didn't have the exact description of all the goals. Could be, but it is probably the Pele effect too... Santos in the 50's had the average of 2,95 goals per game in Campeonato Paulista and in the 60's, 2.85. 2.95 and 2.85 isn't very far away than these 2.80 of Barcelona and Real Madrid between 2009 and 2018 in La Liga. You can said that Santos was a superteam (clearly outlier in the league's average), but isn't Barcelona or Real Madrid nowadays? and with the best players of all the world? Spain w/o Messi (Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta etc) won Euro 08, 12 and WC10 with one of the best records all-time to put one example. Question: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/are-spain-the-best-team-ever.1947326/ He is not, he was a superb goalscorer if you see Kona's videos he score a lot of his goals out of the box, more than Messi. In this article even though I think it was from post-peak Pele and the small sample they reached that conclusion: Over this sample, Pele shot about as well as Messi from long range and considerably better from short range. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/messi-is-better-than-maradona-but-maybe-not-pele/ Again, the ideal would be peak Pele vs peak Messi not Pele post his peak at goalscoring, the way he did isn't fair.. but Messi is a superb goalscorer himself too. Btw, nice comment by one Youtube user about this video: mskidi2 anos atrás I just counted that out of the 58 goals with his National Team that are in this video (i dont count goals against teams AIK, Atletico, Guadalajara) an unbelievable number 19!!!!!!! come from shots outside of the box. That means that exactly 33%, one third that is, of Pele's goals with his National Team came from shots outside of the box. The number is outstanding, absolutely crazy. And I am not even taking into account the fact that there are another 20 international goals of Pele that we don't have. Even more amazingly Pele has scored outside of the box against perrenial titans like Germany, Argentina and USSR with BOTH RIGHT AND LEFT SHOTS. My friend you have got to do a video about just this subject and try to use comparisons with other greats. To give you an example, out of Maradona's 34 international goals only 4 (11%) are with shots outside of the box and all of them with set pieces, none in free play. Pele has at least 3 long shot goals with his left foot (vs W.Germany, Argentina and Lev Yashin's Soviet Union) in free play. But even in set play skill, he has 8 (14%) set piece international goals. Just to help you, Platini has 17 long shot international goals out of a total of 41goals in his 72 caps, 9 from set pieces, 2 with the left foot. Zico has 11 long shot international goals, 6 of them by set pieces out of a total of 50 in his 73 caps(71 in fact*), none with the left foot. Zidane has 7 long shot international goals, 3 of them by set pieces out of a total of 31 in his 108 caps, 4 with the left foot. Ronaldo 9 has 7. Cristiano Ronaldo has 11 long shot international goals out of a total of 61 goals in his 133 caps, 6 from set pieces. Messi has 11 long shot international goals out of a total of 55 goals in his 113 caps, 5 from set pieces, none with his right. Only Platini can stand next to Pele on this department both in volume and percentage of long distance international goals and in the quality of the opposition, as all the others have scored most of their goals against midgets. I agree that he is very complete. That's also my opinion, but for some reason he doesn't transfer his superb form from Barcelona to Argentina neither in football, nor in the average G+A per match nor in leadership and he flopped in many big events with his NT too. The rest in my opinion including Cristiano Ronaldo, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Puskas, Zico, Maradona, Ronaldo are one level below Messi and Pelé's dominance in my opinion.
@Vegan10 Btw you have skilfully evaded giving your opinion on prime dinho vs Cristiano Your comments on other historical players are more than welcome but I’d like to hear your seemingly measured and unbiased opinion on this subject 1.)did Ronaldinho have the skillset to compare to the greatest in history? (I think he is lacking hugely in goalscoring and his mentality-he never had the mentality of a champion even if his talent took him to the top for a short time) Goalscoring(despite what fanboys like celito would insist) is actually a very important component of dinhos game He was never a AM or CM (like zidane)in fact his role was more comparable to Rivaldo or Neymar (that of a SS) particularly in 05/06 and 06/07 the seasons he scored 20+ goals with loads of penalties and set pieces
Playing like Diego in 86' would be definitely a hard downgrade for Pele. Pele played a lot better and he didn't needed the "mano de dios" the "God's hands" to gain anything neither Brazil needed some corrupt dictatorship. I imagine what it was like to be Maradona being "considered" the best in the world in 1980 playing in the crap of the Argentine league. If the main teams in Argentina were placed in a modern and regular league of running points in Brazil (without all that dirty plays very known in Hispanic-America) there would be two or three argentinian or uruguayan teams for fifteen Brazilian teams. They have never produced a generation that is truly comparable to Brazil. There is a myth that everything needs to be divided with the same portion, but I myself doubt that even percapita Argentina produces better players than Brazil, I would say they don't produce, Brazil produces more quality and quantity and Brazil is 5-times bigger than Argentina and of course much deeper in terms of competition and quality. Even today I see the Argentine league and I'm sure to be watching a Gaucho or Paranaense level championship, it doesn't have the level of a Paulista or a Carioca (and probably never had), let alone the Rio-São Paulo or the Brazilian League (which began in 1971). In general the Argentinian football scene is amateur-amateur. .
Messi was only able to succeed because of how rules have favored offensive players in the modern game as well as how the system of tournaments changed. Cruijff had to win the league in order to compete in the old European club competition and any loss in the first round was almost an immediate death sentence. Playing on the road was also felt tremendously unlike now where everyone feels at home. Europe is not what it used to be. Cruijff was by no means a complete footballer; his aerial game was suspect and he wasn’t regarded as a strong finisher. The only aspect where Messi is better than Cruijff is in his natural low centre of gravity that allows him to continue a sustained run. The argument that he’s a better finisher is a specious one because the eras have changed in defense of a scorer. In Cruijff’s days, particularly in Spain, if he came inside the box running, defenders would hand him a hit to his lower extremities to let him know that he’s not welcome entering the box anymore. Next time he’d have to think twice. This was the same situation that occurred in Basketball. I remember the Detroit Pistons playing their dirty “Jordan rules”, he’d not get any easy layups, he’d have to work for it if he came into the hole. That was how the games were played. They were men, you had to be man to play back then. Nowadays If I watch La Liga I laugh at how these guys complain of any foul; they don’t know how easy they have it. Buch of sissies and primadonnas. In regards to Cruijff at Barcelona; I’ve already said that after WC74 he wasn’t the same: battled lots of injuries, problems with management and always clashes with the officials that got him in trouble. He divided fans’ opinions and even accusations that he ruined Sotil’s career and mortgaged second division club Levante after his stint in the NASL. But I’ll always defend the guys from my generation even with all their flaws. I’m old school Carlitos, from another generation, as was my folks, we didn’t associate or feel enamored by current football anymore. That’s why I rarely ever speak about today’s game. Too much invested interests and too much hyped up propaganda. The game is dirty from a business point of view but clean from a violent game. That’s the only good side of it but sometimes I wish it was played like back in my days. Our George Gervin “ the iceman” or Larry “Legend” Bird days...
This is untrue and I have went over this many times before. Barcelona did roughly 50% better when he played. You have said yourself that until 1978 he was (seen as) the best. That's a fact.
He was the best, no one was better in my view and in the media’s view - although some argued he was living off of his past reputation. But the reality is he struggled too much with injuries and with the exception of that 1976-77 season, he never did match in the eyes of Barcelona aficionados his first season. He was viewed by some press voices as not profitable as in the beginning and on occasion booed by the home fans. In any event, he was better than any current player in my opinion.
Europe is not what it used to be, they are much better now and in that era Messi is clearly an outlier among the best players, something that advanced statistics also prove. The best point to argue against him is that La Liga is something weak compared with let's say the Premier, that he is protected there for tougher defenses and that he plays for a Super team (Barcelona). But again he is top notch: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/dear-lionel-messi-please-please-dont-quit-argentina/ https://www.whoscored.com/Players/11119/History/Lionel-Messi Messi is better than Maradona.
Maradona 86 was the best dribbler,creator of chances and one of the leading scorers I don’t think comparing the level Maradona reached in Mexico to Pelé s peak does him a disservice at all Also opta stats does not(and cannot) capture things like his exquisite technique and how he was able to manipulate the ball to his will Let’s make it clear In the long run Maradona didn’t have the longevity at a goat level to compete with Pelé (hence the reason a comparison between the two is flawed) However I can confidently say that Maradona had games on par with the best I’ve seen of Pelé Diego’s 86 semifinal performance vs Belgium is the highest level of genius I’ve seen from any footballer (and that includes Lionel Messi)
If Messi played in the era and leagues of Spain and Italy as did Cruijff and Maradona; he’d end up going “20 times to the toilet” before games ... jijijiii
LMFAO (I’m fully aware of Maradonas latest rant) Messi despite his otherworldly talent isn’t and never will be a leader.it has nothing to do with him not being vocal enough. He lacks the passion and drive that was present in the likes of Maradona,lothar Matthäus,Beckenbauer etc And he is a quitter which goes a long way in proving he is mentally weak All of the above shouldn’t detract anything away from his actual talent and achievements for Barcelona which are unique in the history of football
If he ruined Sotil his career, how does it come then that Sotil named his son Johan and made the other Johan the godfather of his child. Sotil had problems with alcoholism.
I’m tempted by your bait although I should not entertain kids that are spoiled and don’t want to learn. In any event, yes, they are much better now in cashing in lucrative deals that didn’t exist in my generation and my folks, and in Europe losing every day its identity.... and I thought back then Europe was struggling with half of it thrown to the Soviets, but now it’s worse!
Don’t tell me about it; I had the regrettable experience of having to witness him live on courtside in every WC since 2010 without any passion. To witness his attitude when things are going the wrong way was not a pleasant experience.
I know who Maradona is, I know he was a great player, a all-time legend. But there is no comparison here, Pelé is Pelé. The question should be did Maradona even reached the best levels of Pelé and if yes for how long it was...one game, one month, one season? That would be a more interesting question to be deep analysed. I mean, deep analysed.
Yes, in which none of you young bucks are in a position to analyze... Maybe Maradona was better, maybe not, but I’m confident that Jose Manuel Moreno was arguably better than both!
What you talking about? Being honest, you forgot to update yourself that's why you're so steeped in your convenient nostalgicism. Today there are many more effective statistics and metrics to analyze a player and well ... football evolves every day as a profitable business that it is. And ... the reality is that South America is clearly behind Europe now, both in methodology of training, in advanced analysis, tactics ... and they also buy the best South Americans players at very young age. Europeans and their competitions have never been as superior to South American level as they are today. The hiatus has never been so big. You can put out your impressions of course, but these notes are hard to reply.