CR7 vs Ronaldinho (prime only)

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by carlito86, Oct 9, 2018.

?

Who’s prime was better?

This poll will close on Feb 9, 2102 at 7:45 PM.
  1. Cristiano Ronaldo

    10 vote(s)
    47.6%
  2. Ronaldinho gaucho

    11 vote(s)
    52.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I will point out some to you later . It’s really mostly in the passing and control department .

    As for frequency based on positioning for the passing , I just don’t see it . Ronaldo’s brain is wired different and R10s control of the ball is just superior. The difference is visual.

    Lastly him scoring goals vs Barca has nothing to do with my argument. 1v1 vs Alves, Alves more often than not for the better of Ronaldo ... when Ronaldo tried to dribble him. This has nothing to do with scoring goals . He could score goals and never go through Alves . That’s completely irrelevant .
     
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #427 carlito86, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    zlatan played striker for the vast majority of his career and barely has more non penalty goals than Johan Cruyff
    Ibra has around 440 non penalty goals in 873 matches:0.5 non penalty goals
    Cruyff in the other hand scored 400 career goals with I don’t think more than 10 penalties in 709 matches:0.55 non penalty goals
    Bearing in mind he played sweeper,playmaker,false 9 and striker at various points in his career
    Was in all likelihood a better goalscorer,and by a huge margin also a better dribbler,better passer,better midfield organiser,better defender and most pertinent to this conversation a WAY more decisive player
    Remind me if ibra ever scored in a CL SF let alone in 2 CL finals



    ibrahimovic did nothing in big ko stage matches not even once
    Not in the champions league and not in the European championship
    He is a great league goalscorer(with goalscorer being the key word here because outside of goals he never impacted the game as Cruyff who went through various transitions as a player)
    Measuring the career or end product of maradona is a bit complicated because he did not play with outstanding teammates at club level particularly in Napoli
    With what he had you could make an argument he did remarkably well but with some room for improvement (particularly in European matches)
    At least he left the greatest performance in a tournament EVER in WC 86

    All the top 10 all timers were marked as being decisive players
    That is the difference being a special and very special player
     
  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #428 carlito86, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019


    These are few examples and by no means all
     
  4. Danko

    Danko Member

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    Dude why are you convincing me? I clearly believe that Cruyff is miles better than Ibra. That was exactly my point. Both Cruyff and Maradona have worse goalscoring stats then Ibra but are EASILY better players. Thus the whole "dribbles and key passes are for stat nerds" comment was simply ill-advised.
     
    ko242 repped this.
  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #430 carlito86, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    You missed the point
    Cruyff actually has better scoring stats than ibrahimovic in addition to offering substantially more dribbling,more defensive contribution,more playmaking etc

    I repeat if you did not understand this for a third time:
    Cruyff averaged more non penalty goals in his career than ibrahimovic
    He was more prolific and demonstrably more decisive despite operating in a deeper role for long periods of his career
     
  6. Danko

    Danko Member

    Barcelona
    Serbia
    Mar 15, 2018
    Yes you're right. You're missing the point... Decisiveness isn't just about scoring goals.
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Decisiveness entails directly impacting your teams results.
    You cannot be decisive without producing end product (to suggest otherwise is insane)
    A scorer can be a game changer but a playmaker can also be aswell

    Messi was a WF in 2014/15 with a licence to roam anywhere In the final third
    He wasn’t a deep lying playmaker for you to suggest he shouldn’t be measured by goals
    Messi scored 40+ league goals and his profile was still that of a forward

    A forward will ultimately always be measured by the end product he produces and Messi did not score or directly assist any of Barcelona’s goals against juventus 2015
     
  8. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    It has to be Cristiano. You dont last for that long at that level just because you are disciplined. I take, around 2012 Cristiano over any version of Ronaldinho without hesitation. He would give nightmares to any defense in history. You have no right for a mistake in penalty box when Cristiano is there not to mention counter attacks, which are virtually unstopable at his level of fitness:


    You dont get that from R10.

    Ronaldinho's fancy football is not reliable, sustainable. You never know when it's going to give an end product, even when he is at his "peak". Cristiano being a bit more stiff and mechanical, at least you now what you can get from him at any given night,. a ruthless, starving goalscorer with a winning mentality
     
    ko242, benficafan3 and carlito86 repped this.
  9. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    #434 Bavarian14, Feb 12, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
    Juve was tactically outplayed by Madrid. Massimiliano Allegri made a wrong decision switching from a 4-2-3-1 which was highly effective throughout the tournament to a 3-4-2-1. Yes Ronaldo was great but It's also worth mentioning that his first goal came from a deflection and Madrid dominated the entire second half. Messi was great against Juve in the QF same year. But none of the chances created by him was converted unfortunately.

    Belittling Messi's performance in the final just because he didn't scored a goal is utter stupid. He played a completely different role than Ronaldo. Provided beautiful long passes, terrorized the defense with his dribbling runs. The second goal came from his dribbling run from halfway line and an accurate shot Buffon couldn't parry. I'd like @carlito86 to take a look at assist rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assist_(football)
     
    Sexy Beast, Danko, ko242 and 2 others repped this.
  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    You are directing this at the wrong person
    I know Messi was very good there in fact I have gone out of my way to acknowledge this fact many times
    Am I really belittling Messis performance for saying it wasn’t as good as ronaldos?
    I don’t think so

    juventus had the best defensive record in all of the top 5 European leagues in 16/17
    That did not matter in the slightest
    I don’t recall ever looking at a player and having that feeling he is 100% guaranteed to score
    he faced Bayern/atletico/juventus in succession and obliterated their defence period
    No tactical alterations by the opposition could’ve stopped this from happening

    The first goal scored vs juventus in 16/17 was a move started by CR.
    He took it so quickly the defender(?) couldn’t get his positioning right and it took a slight deflection
    when you say deflection it can have connotations that he was lucky or it would’ve not gone in had there not been one.
    Let’s be clear I’m not comparing ronaldos goal to maradonas 2nd vs England but the latter also took a deflection
    I hardly ever hear this being used as a reason why it should be considered less worthy
     
  11. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Took it so quickly ? He took it first time. You're adding adjectives for normal actions. And that looked like a bit of poor marking as well, he gives the ball and the player near him could have tracked him. Instead he is wide open inside the box. Happens to Messi as well specially in La Liga. Defenses mostly do zonal marking.

    Ronaldo's performance vs Juve can be defined as clutch. Didn't do much ... didn't even touch the ball that much, but scored 2 goals. But it's what was expected of him.
     
    Tropeiro repped this.
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Yes celito taking it first time is what every striker does in a similar situation LOL
    I can’t count how many times I’ve seen elite strikers in a similar situation every single week take an extra touch and the chance is gone

    Defensive mistakes are inevitable in match situations
    we can be like armchair analysts and pundits who nit pick the defensive errors of the opposing team and speculate on what ifs or we can just appreciate ronaldos predatory instinct in front of goal and his ability to see openings when others cannot in real time situations

    Btw this thread is still waiting for your examples of dinho performing ball controls that are so clearly above and beyond CRs capabilities
    Only official match footage is acceptable
    so no examples from Nike commercials,FIFA street or on the copacabana beach
     
  13. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Sorry bro, it's a simple first time shot. You're making it sound Ronaldo is the only one doing that skill by saying look at how quick he hit that ball.

    1:40 - 1:50, 2:07, 2:44, 2:55, 4:27, 4:40, 5:00, 7:39 , 7:47

     
  14. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Ronaldinho was already playing at very high level at PSG. Much of the same skills he pulled of from DAY 1 at Barca. Just wasn't at a high profile team at the time.



     
  15. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Plus @carlito86 , as I said before, I believe Ronaldinho pulled off those skills and playmaking with more consistency than Ronaldo ... with no multitude of useless step overs Ronaldo did at ManU. I watched Ronaldinho's full Barca career from the first season and much of Ronaldo's time at ManU. I used to play fantasy EPL with friends so I used to follow the EPL closely.
     
  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    This is sad celito like really sad
    That you think doing circus ball controls in midfield positions is something above and beyond ronaldos capabilities you have absolutely no clue

    I just showed you one of the most technically outstanding bicycle kicks you’ll ever see
    You did not even care to respond
    Another example of him controlling a 50 yard pass by Marcelo and was a identical copy of dinhos ball control vs flamengo 2011
    There are examples of CR Controlling a long pass with his back and doing a sombrero over a defender
    Controlling a ball with his shoulder,his chest even the back of his head
    There are the stepovers/double step overs/the runs from deep areas past multiple players,the elasticos,the nutmegs etc

    Could R10 be overly extravagant yeah definitely but so can CR(or at least he could once upon a time)
    What this boils down to is a stylistic difference and not one player or another being technically inferior
    CR was as technically gifted in addition to having demonstrable greater athletic qualities,greater positioning,greater finishing
    Dinho was a better passing specialist and that’s literally it

    the gulf in difference is actually very huge and even though you claim to accept CR is a greater player I can tell it’s something you don’t truly believe(maybe you just don’t want to seem be an oddball)
    Your natural bias towards Brazilian players is clouding your judgment
     
  17. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Like I said, it's also about consistency. R10 never mis-trapped / mis-controlled the ball as much as CR7. He had better control of it. Of course there will be examples of CR7 doing those skills like R10 like trapping a ball like you said, but in my view, R10 had better consistency.
     
    Tropeiro repped this.
  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    At the end of the day what is highlighted is what it boils down to
    Unfounded statements past off as scientific facts

    I can tell you for certain CR was a MUCH more technically rounded player in Madrid in terms of trapping
    At Manchester United(07-09) he would mis control a ball and recover it with his pace sometimes several times per game(he could hold on to the ball a bit too long and make mistakes on simple passes)
    These are facts no doubt and showed he was maturing as a player and this is a natural progression
    Having said this the talent and athleticism was there for everyone too see and he could do outrageous things with the same consistency as nearly any other player I have seen
     
  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Same skills with much less end product(you forgot this part)
    Dinho was nowhere near as productive a player in PSG as he was in Barcelona and the profile of the team has nothing to do with this.
    Look up on what Luis Fernandez had to say about the inconsistency,the lack of professionalism etc

    10 min YouTube comps without context are extremely misleading.
    He was never ranked a top 20 player in Europe when he was doing those skills or even the best player in his own league
     
  20. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    BTW ... there is nothing sad about it, a lot of those tricks were made to get out of trouble . Not counting the triple sombrero . It’s sad you just see it as circus tricks . If you useless tricks , most of Ronaldo’s stepovers at ManU are right up there with useless skills.
     
  21. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Ronaldo is / was a better overall player than R10 specially in terms of overall productivity and hunger to win. No question about it. But no argument you can make will convince me he had a better touch on the ball and was at the same level of passing . I’ve seen enough of both to make my judgement . You can have your own and that’s fine .
     
  22. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    And it’s sad you call R10 skills not productive , at his peak at Barca , his tricks were very productive for the team . He balanced them perfectly in my view as he rarely slowed the game down just to look fancy .
     
  23. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    You are intentionally misrepresenting my argument
    I did not claim anywhere that CR was equal to dinho as a passing specialist
    We are focusing solely on first touch and trapping skills.

    you say nothing will convince you otherwise,so even if I showed you 20 examples of elite ball control you wouldn’t be willing to reconsider
    This is what I meant by you being sad
     
  24. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Well, you won't convince me of that. You talk about me posting 10 min Youtube video compilation then proceed to point to 20 examples on Youtube of ball control over a 14 year career. Sorry but that's being hypocritical. Again, I am talking about consistency. In this case consistency in trapping the ball no matter how it gets to you. My luck is that I've seen a good amount of both players playing in their prime to make my own judgement. I am not saying Ronaldo was a slouch in this department, but just not R10 level.
     
  25. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Show me a performance by dinho vs a strong or weak opponent were he showed such a varied technique
    Some people say if they could pick a player just for 1 game dinho would be their choice
    Even by these standards of just one performance dinho did not reach this level

    I don’t mean to patronise but you undoubtedly will copy and paste some links of dinhos performances as a form of rebuttal.I would like to know how and why you think dinho was at that same level in whatever performance you pick
     

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